Never mind that not a single one of them pipes up when some lazy fascist bullshit gets posted here.
Only when it’s left of like 1990s Biden then they all lose their fuckin minds.
LOL as you type this on a electronic device that was made by capitalists.
We can have nice things without crushing levels of inequality orders of magnitude higher than humans have ever known at any point in history.
Absolutely you are 100% correct. However communism is not the answer.
And what is, O Wise One?
It was made by inventors and workers. The capitalists own the company. They don’t create.
You are not a capitalist.
“Capital”… You keep using that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.
What is it that Investors invest? Could it be capital? Investors also tend to have ownership of the company.
Funny I thought a good education was one of the benefits of communism.
And why should they? What makes investors special beyond “having lots of money”
Why should workers forfeit their labor at a fraction of its actual value to line the accounts of people who won the birth lottery?
Investors did not invent the product, they did not design it’s manufacturing process, they did not acquire materials or even the land upon which the factory is built. And yet, they reap all the profits.
There’s a simpler way
If you think “capitalism” just means that money exists, then you’ve completely misunderstood the concept
Keep posting that meme, maybe it will be relevant one day.
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Not quite, I made a bland general comment to troll on a bland general post. My intention was to trigger some commies. Judging by the comments I’d say it was a success.
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My intention was to trigger some commies
“Was just a prank bro”
I love it when these people burn themselves by being stupid, annoying pricks. If they get enough negative feedback, they just say they were “triggering” people on purpose. Then they congratulate themselves on their brilliant, flawless, and totally original tactics. It’s the same routine every goddam time.
I can appreciate a joke at my expense if it’s even remotely clever, but this is just pathetic and tired. It’s 2023, ffs. Somebody needs to come up with a new trolling script.
I hope that these are young kids who will outgrow this shit and move on. I know that’s not true in every case, though.
No not a prank. A prank would indicate I wasn’t serious about my actions and want to apologize.
I’ve been pretty up front that I wanted to trigger some commies. I also take nothing back and apologize for nothing.
This is what you consider a fun Wednesday night? Or Thursday morning, depending.
It’s relevant today
Imagine participating in society lmaoo
Sure, I take my family on vacations via airlines run by capitalists who fly airplanes built by capitalists. I like to sit in a bar that is privately owned by capitalists and chit chat over a beer that was brewed, bottled and distributed by capitalists.
Sure, I’m missing out on all the socializing that communists have time for when they are waiting in bread lines. But hey you can’t have everything.
Person is already dead inside. They “have a family” but are acting like a teenager - speaks for itself…
“they’re acting like a teenager” and “speaks for itself” in the same post. 😬
Thanks for calling me on the shoddy rhetoric. The person I was replying to claims to have a family while themselves providing a typical teenage retort, thereby failing to act maturely, which is what one would expect from a decent parent. Any better? Still too ad hominem?
who said anything about ad hominems? or shoddy rhetoric? you’re calling them a teenager while using the phrase “speaks for itself”, which is a pretty immature phrase. And then you dress up your language for the reply to me to sound more mature? sounds like someone who’s stuck in adolescence and pining for “adulthood” to me.
inb4 “thanks internet psychoanalyst, sugondese”
There’s nothing wrong with the phrase “speaks for itself”. It’s a very common expression.
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I live in a capitalist society. The shelves are well stocked with multiple brands of affordable toilet paper that I can buy with a stable currency.
If you live in some commie shithole that can’t keep shelves stocked let alone food on the table I can see why you might think that.
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You realize wet wipes are made by capitalists…
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Oh okay they’re trolling, I get it
My dude. The capitalists are not the people who made those devices. Workers made those things.
Give it up. These people are living the benefits of a century of capitalism. Now that it’s going down the shitter, the idea has, somehow, always been evil.
I figure it’s a bunch of kids who haven’t got the notion that any form of economy is, has and will be corrupted by humans.
tfw Marx was just a shitty millennial, apparently
Global capitalism is a very, very, very recent occurrence historically.
We went from a merchant-style sort of economy to capitalism almost overnight.
And in this merchant-style sort of economy, the rich weren’t an order of magnitude richer than the poor, and profiting off their backs?
FFS, monkeys quickly figure out how to trade “money” for sex. World’s oldest profession anyone? We’re no different. Capitalism just perfected it.
Capitalism is just dandy, with some serious government oversight. Problem being, how do you stop the overseers from getting rich legislating the oversight? Same problem in any economic policy.
Kinda funny thought I had in my 20’s. The only way to truly get rich is by getting other people working for you. Never pursued that line of work, just not me, can’t do it. But it’s still true and always will be, no matter the economics.
Communism is when no phone
Ifone venezuale 100 trillion dead!
The best response. So common it’s hard to tell if it’s a real response people believe.
This is not the flex you think it is.
Not a flex, a trigger.
Whatever you want to call it, it’s idiotic strawmanning.
These capitalist and billionaire cocksuckers sure love socialism when they socialise their losses and fucking take our tax payer money to bail themselves out. if you’re working class and don’t support socialism, you should look into it more. Propaganda from these blood sucking billionaire ghouls have made most of us blind to the better life socialism can offer us.
You think you are arguing with the people accepting handouts on lemmy?
That isnt socialism, thats the capitalist state doing its job of protecting capital. Socialism is when the proletariat own the means of production.
Yes i agree. Just pointing out the fact there’s no free market. When they lose, they still win by taking our hard earned money and using it to further their interests. I’d be happier if it were used for our welfare instead.
Id argue that the free market incentivizes the capture of politicians but I think we are on the same side here.
So everybody on Lemmy is non-capitalist is what you’re saying?
A large proportion of Lemmy are not pro-capitalist, yes.
Thats still very much generalizing. What this meme essentially says is that if you’re a capitalist, you’re not part of Lemmy.
On a seperate note, you cant possibly know how many people on Lemmy actually support capitalism or not. It has a left tendency, yes, but I bet the majority of Lemmx users do support caputalidm in some shape or form.
No, it is saying that if you are capitalist, you will get pushed into a corner by downvotes and can’t enjoy the discussion as much as everyone else.
As is clearly shown with this comment.
If you actually read the posts made here on Lemmy (and I don’t mean the hexbear lemmygrad ones) you should still clearly see a contempt towards the capital class.
The upvote ratio on this comment (which is at 15up to 15down currently) is in no way representative of Lemmy. At best its representative of this specific community (memes@lemmy.ml).
Does anyone here own capital? As in being haut bourgeoisie? Probably not.
If you support capitalism and you’re not a capitalist you’re just a bootlicker.
And you live on your own self-sustaining compound, posting from your open hardware, fabricated in free factories, Libre software OS and applications, with compost-generated power? Didn’t think so. Welcome to the gray zone bootlicker.
“If you dont own factories you dont benefit from the system, you should not defend it”
“Oh okay, so you have completely isolated yourself from the system then?”
No, that’s not the point, the point is to end the exploitation, not escape it, which is always a fanciful idea as you cannot escape the indirect effects of it. Also do you think almost anyone is capable of doing the things you mentioned? You’d have to be really wealthy to do those things.
You used the wrong quote from yourself. What you quoted from me was a reaction to this gem of a statement:
If you support capitalism and you’re not a capitalist you’re just a bootlicker.
which is black and white, and typical of us-good versus them-bad argument fallacies. If you live and participate in a capitalist system, as the vast majority of humanity does, you are, to some degree, supporting it.
Based on the comments in this thread I take your position to be it’s a matter of degree of support. Owning a truck isn’t capital, it’s apparently got to be a lot to make someone a capitalist. That is not leftist or anti-capitalist, but simply “eat the rich”. Most people exist in classes that participate in ways that keep the lower earners below. I do not believe most humans think this great system for all but feel helpless, and participate as a way to simply exist.
Surely spreading insulting, erudite rhetoric in online is not the solution.
Owning a truck isn’t capital, it’s apparently got to be a lot to make someone a capitalist.
Owning a truck for personal transportation is literally personal property, not private property. Can you give me a quick definition according to Marxists of personal and private property?
Because you speak as if you’re qualified to define leftist:
That is not leftist or anti-capitalist, but simply “eat the rich”.
I do not believe most humans think this great system for all but feel helpless,
That is capitalist realism for you.
Does anyone here own capital? As in being haut bourgeoisie? Probably not.
If you support capitalism and you’re not a capitalist you’re just a bootlicker.
How do you define “capital”? I own a paid-off vehicle. That’s my biggest single asset. Am I therefore evil? It’s parked in the garage of this home I rent. Used car market right now means it’s worth a bit more than it would be otherwise.
Oh, and I’m also a shareholder in my employer. Gasp!
All this talk is highly dangerous us-vs-them, black-and-white divisive crap that isn’t going to go anywhere productive. Stop it. Grow up.
Owning a car is not bourgeois. Owning a business is.
If you could stop going to work tomorrow and still pay your bills because your assets are generating sufficient income to cover your expenses and still accumulate, you’re in the capital class. If you trade your time and labour for income and quitting work would mean your resources will get depleted, you’re working class.
And if you think that you’re not working class because you sit in an office and work on a computer, then that’s exactly what the ownership class wants you to believe so you’ll be happy with your lot and not rock the boat.
How do you define “capital”? I own a paid-off vehicle. That’s my biggest single asset. Am I therefore evil?
Oh my god, we aren’t coming for your toothbrush. The idea that owning anything makes you a capitalist is absurd. We are talking about businesses that alienate workers like yourself from their labor.
Oh, and I’m also a shareholder in my employer. Gasp.
And if you had enough shares to live off of you wouldn’t be renting. You’re a member of the proletariat, not even the petite bourgeoisie who still have more to gain by overthrowing capitalism.
All this talk is highly dangerous us-vs-them, black-and-white divisive crap that isn’t going to go anywhere productive. Stop it. Grow up.
Maybe instead of being afraid of shadows you should read what socialists actually believe. We believe that the means of production (aka your workplace) should be owned and managed by the workers (you) and not some board who see the business as a paycheck every month (and probably don’t understand how it actually functions) overseen by a democratic body to coordinate between businesses. We claim to live in a democracy but nowhere is this more evidently wrong then workplaces, which are almost always run as dictatorships…what little political agency employees exercise has to be won in conflict to the goals of the system.
We oppose land commodification. People, especially children and the elderly, should not be at risk of being evicted from where they live, and if they have income they should just contribute to the collective maintaining and construction of property which is generally 5 percent of income, not 1/3 of a paycheck like it is under capitalism with all the middlemen leeches.
Yes, I probably have assets valued at .5-1M that I’ve accumulated with my family.
Okay, that at most makes you petite bourgeoisie not haut bourgeoisie. But I’m guessing you can’t live off of your passive income so you’re still proletariat. You have more in common with the proletariat than not, and you have more to gain by overthrowing capitalism then preserving it.
👌👍
Keep moving those goal posts.
Yes, the goal posts of definitions created by a guy who has been dead for more than 100 years. Clarifying a misunderstanding on a basic concept of Marxist analysis of capitalism written more than 100 years ago is moving the goalposts.
Also, can you live entirely off your passive income? If not, youre not even petite bourgeoisie.
👌
The quality content I’ve come to expect from lemmy.world users.
You wouldn’t be any better off on a socialist system. The people at the top of the party would control everything and the working class would be even poorer than they are now. You’re just licking the left boot instead of the right one.
This is empirically untrue, but also just nonsense. Politicians do not have the same class relationship as capitalists with the proletariat.
Oh I’m sorry i didn’t realize there was empirical evidence for socialism. Please send me a link to some of these successful socialist societies.
Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos for starters China went from a century of humiliation to a superpower in less then a century thanks to socialism. The USSR was better than the feudalism before it or the dictatorships of the bourgeoisie that came after it by a wide margin. For a place much poorer than the US, they had similar nutrition, better education, more rights for women both legalistically and practically.
Oh, throw in east Germany too. Do you know what the Stasi did to the lgbt movement that they saw as subversive? Destroy it by ending discrimination against gay and trans people, including a massive education campaign to eradicate homophobia and transphobia and state funded gay bars. Compare that to how the US was treating gay people at the time.
I’m not a socialist by any means (well, I have been called one by republicans…) but I’ve always hated this argument. The USSR and China are the only two I’m aware of that weren’t massively screwed over in their infancy by the US, and/or (usually and) manipulated by the USSR.
The USSR was literally invaded in its infancy by France Britain and the US. Trust me the USSR was getting fucked with by bourgeois dictatorships since the beginning.
Then you shouldn’t go around saying it’s “empirically true” because at best there is no evidence.
I’ve literally cited evidence before you left this comment lmao.
Dang, for a moment I considered that you might have independent thoughts. This LemmtGradChatGPT BS ruined it.
Yes, yes. It is cool and subversive to support capitalism, or at least oppose its alternatives.(aka support capitalism) You’re part of the cool club of people who act in the interests of the bourgeoisie and not of your own class. A real independent thinker.
(Not that any of us are independent thinkers, but one of us is defending the powers that be and calling the other a chatbot)
You have no idea what systems I support, yet you assume I support capitalism because I didn’t agree with you, which says a lot. The only evidence of my beliefs I have provided is that I do not support your approach. Further, I do not believe your rhetoric is a genuine attempt to make the world any better for anyone.
Oh, so you are an anticommunist “leftist” then?
Edit: your post history seems to indicate you’re a social democrat, which is just capitalism with a welfare state. Aka capitalism.
For the anti-capitalists, I have a genuine question (sorry, I couldn’t find an “ask a commie” community):
In the capitalist system there is a movement called Financial Independence Retire Early (FIRE) where people commit to living frugally in an effort to maximize savings and investments. The goal is to achieve a balance that allows you live off a safe withdrawal rate (around 3.5-4%) and then leave the workforce at an earlier than normal age. Some people commit to a life of minimalism and lean-FIRE with under $20k in investment income per year. I believe there is significant overlap with the van-life crowd and other nomadic lifestyles.
Is this lifestyle compatible with, or is there a similar lifestyle within a communist system? To expand, can those with a different set of priorities trade away their later working days in exchange for less material things?
I can only answer as capitalist. FIRE relies on accumulated interest. For workers it should be the same if 10 billionaires or 100,000 FIRE investors own their companies.
UBI should be fairer.
Both scenarios are the same. Work 20 years hard and then stop working.
The FIRE owner have an interest in low wages for the workers whereas in UBI, more income for workers could mean more to be shared.
What? There are plenty of communist Lemmy subs you can ask in. I just think you haven’t tried hard enough.
To answer your question tho, no - because there would be no need. Communism does want mandatory participation, but if checked and balanced correctly everyone would work within their limits and not be relegated to a lower class of living - because that’s sort of the point of communism. You’d work within your means until there was time to retire without being limited in access to services and goods. Theoretically, under a functioning communist system, there would be no manufactured scarcity.
Tbh I believe both communism and our current form of capitalism centralises power and ownership way too much. Social-capitalism, or even libertarian socialism, might be the ticket. It would undo at least 200 years of psy-ops and gamed laws designed to favour the rich and vesting power in them, which is the issue of centralised power that we’re facing today - in what some call “late-stage capitalism” - or what I call the breaking point of society under a predatory, exploitative and imperialistic form of capitalism that seems more like the privatisation of the aristocracy than the supposed liberalisation of economy. Transparency, accountability and consequences for people in power and wealth is what’s sorely needed.
PS: New public management is a con-job disguised as decentralisation meant to encumber governments under the guise of checking and balancing them, being effectively a psy-op in of itself to make people hate public services and taxes. As per usual, goddamn liberals - and I include socially conservative liberals in that polifical grouping. Dems and pubs are the same, want the same institutions and promote US imperialism - not fiscal independence, no matter what justification and mental gymnastics they put in the form of spreadsheets.
PPS: Also, additionally, commodification of the housing market was a mistake. It will always be stupid and harmful towards society.
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It’s the other way round. The fear of being left out makes the lemmies dance off a cliff.
(I know, the movie was fake.)
The capitalist sees that the lemmies keep dancing without wondering why the music is playing.
.
Let’s call the capitalists on the yachts billionaires.
I am defending the capitalistic view that markets are key to wealth distribution. Socialists and communists agree. That’s why they want to replace them.
My point is that there needs to be competition on all markets. There must be enough housing that rent becomes cheap.
For that to happen, lemmies have to vote for politicians who change zoning laws to allow cheap housing.
Instead I see lemmies having fun with revolutions, new technologies and debates about the inclusion of anarchists. Those are all beautiful dancing partners but they won’t reduce rent because there won’t be a revolution.
.
That’s where I say you are a lemmy dancing to the music.
You are lamenting the current system. You believe there is a free housing market when there is none. You think of the current system when I argue that voting must be used to make a change.
The system is not working because the lemmies are dancing. Not believing in change is the music.
Wealth redistribution is good. Socialism definitely could end up being better than capitalism with the right implementation and regulations. A socialist revolution is a bad idea; wealth redistribution can be implemented in capitalism. Lobbying is real, but voting still makes a difference. Vote in more than just the presidential election and canvas for issues or politicians you support. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
.
progress isnt a continous upward climb in the short term. In the 90s crime shot up and no gay marriage soooo. We can definitely go farther with capitalism like with higher taxes on the rich, minimum base income, etc. Voting does matter, if you dont vote you have no leverage over those who speak for you.
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How has it reached its limit? I just gave two examples of ways it can improve. Voting for the president is not the only thing you can do. You can canvas for politicians or issues you believe in and vote in other levels of the government. I don’t get the sentiment of voting doesnt matter so we wont vote. Its a self fulfilling prophecy. We are not heading to hell on earth because there are a lot of people more informed than either of us working on solving all different kinds of issues. I dont understand blaming capitalism for everything. It completely hand waives the nuance of situations and how we can realistically improve them.
A socialist revolution is a bad idea; wealth redistribution can be implemented in capitalism.
That’s what capitalists want you to think.
very enlightening i never thought of it that way
All the generally established capitalist wiggleroom like minimum wages, paid holiday, affordable health care, education instead of manual labour for children etc were established by massive strikes and (threats of) violent masses.
mincing me into fertilizer instead of making me sell their crap at 5k% markup gets them more money how?
People think capitalists care about nothing except their net value but that’s an unfair stereotype.
What’s the use of having all the money if you can’t make other people suffer? How else will the poors know you’re better than them?
almost sounds like you think you think like them…maybe wanna…be…one? quick #cancelhegar #fuckcapitalism #theyrealljustgreedyassholeslookingtomakeabuck #diecapitalisttrash
also, Mr. Goodman? iykyk
Mans really just said “takes one to know one!” and thought he did something.
mans really just said “thought he did something” and thought he did something. 😳
They’ll mince you once you’re too old, broken, or inconvenient.
Which they caused by working you to that point for peanuts.
The operating word is “would”. If it served their needs, they would. Not that they’re going to right now, obviously.
This way, they have a product to sell. The next tool to come along is hired as the salesman (no salary, 100% commission).
but that’s literally what I was doing…do they just mince everyone, have all the product, and never sell any? how does that get them any money?
They make you make the product for less than it’s worth, then they sell you the product for more than it’s worth, and pocket the difference.
They mince you when your buying power disappears.
Because if you were spreading dangerous ideas like Unions and livable pay, they would stand to lose a lot more than whatever profit you were generating.
Get that mfer, kick his ass!
I don’t recall giving a party hat to capitalists.
That’s ok, they bought their own! 😄
I am just happy to be dancing for once.
And with a partner who is undoubtedly attracted to you no less!
Look at you go.
>>>politicalmemes
You are in this meme.
Yeah no shit it reads ‘lemmy’, everyone here is in this meme
Whoosh
you don’t know what that means
Supersonic BOOM - WHOOSH!
Reject modernity. Become meme.
Someone creating a specific community doesn’t add rules to existing general communities. You should start an apolitical memes community!
What? Using lemmy as intended and finding a community that fits my needs or starting my own?!
Then how will I inflict my will on all the people in existing communities as is my real intent?!
You become a moderator in a pre existing community 😎
Mince you into fertilizer 😂 Reminds me of Soylent Green and Oddworld
Wow, this one touched some nerves.
I’d recommend posting a tangentially political meme at some point on Lemmy.
The amount of people who will come out of the woodwork to tell you ‘don’t post this’ and ‘don’t make things political’ will really be eye opening.
People don’t want to address systemic issues and think not talking about them is a viable solution.
Yeah, because we don’t particularly fancy being lectured by teenagers on the Internet.
How is a meme a lecture?
It’s not, this just isn’t a meme
Where are all of you “NoT a MeMe” types when lazy fascist shit gets posted? 🤔
You know a lot of us are adults, right?
Lemmy’s userbase is more adults compared to Reddit
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so you’re saying you do a lot of projecting
This from the guy on a Leninist instance. Peak irony.
'You are younger than me and therefore know nothing.' Can't argue with that there.
Ah the old deflect to a straw man argument. I never insinuated your age.
We do want adress systematic issues, just in the right communities. When i visis memes i wanna see funny memes. In dankmemes i wanna see dank memes. In NCD i wanna see non credible military stuff.
That’s the issue
this was a funny meme to me thanks
Just making comments about rich people and their taxes seems to do the same thing here.
Don’t even have to go THAT far, I get called a commie for saying a 40 hour work week should provide basic shelter these days. 🤷
If we want to live in boring reality, it doesn’t happen a LOT but way more than it should.
I mean that was and is a basic communist agitating point, you might be closer to a communist than you think.
I don’t know if this is supposed to be snarky or not but I’ve accepted a while ago that I’m definitely some version of “leftist.”
I don’t see myself that way necessarily but capitalists are drawing their line in the sand so far to the right that it is what it is lmao
It was meant to be snarky as in laughing with you not at you.
Gotcha. I’ve always seen myself as a centrist, not particularly anti capitalist, just into safety nets and less car centric infrastructure.
Nowadays I get called a commie for talking about public transit, I’m a commie for the work comment, list goes on. I don’t buy into your red scare bs guys, if that stuff makes me a commie then I’m a commie les fuckin gooooooo
How dare you suggest such a thing!
Being able to afford rent takes yachts away from starving billionaires!
Those yachts provide jobs for the yacht builders and yacht operators of the world. Society needs these things far more than other things like basic human rights and dignity
Tell me how you don’t know the difference between corporatocracy and capitalism without telling me how you don’t know the difference between corporatocracy and capitalism.
Tell us you love the taste of boot on your tongue without telling us you love the taste of boot on your tongue…
Sorry, but I don’t love the taste of the boot of the monopoly of violence (the State) and it’s robbery (taxation), mass murder (war) and slavery (conscription).
Bureaucracy, corruption, FIAT money, intellectual property, common goods, the welfare state… The idea of an oligarchy of politicians controlling and regulating the economy and our private lifes in the name of “democracy” and “the common good” is actually helping those billionaries we BOTH hate so much.
Social democracy is practically the same thing as corporatocracy, but with a little of populism. On the other hand, “any step toward socialism is a step toward economic irrationality”.
They’re the same picture.
To expand…one of the biggest goals of a capitalist is increasing profit. What better way to do this than to take over and manipulate the government of whatever state you’re operating in to cut you special breaks? It’s the pinnacle of capitalist achievement.
You create laws to regulate it…the capitalists will manipulate them and control your government anyways.
You loosen regulations to “promote competition” or whatever excuse they use, and then there’s nothing stopping them from fucking you even harder. Capitalism and the state are always intertwined, one feeds off the other. Even the Soviet Union was sometimes said to be “state capitalist”, where basically the entire country was under control of one “corporation”.
One person has a limit to the complexity that they can control. You need the masses and a working state to control other billionaires. Only then will you be able reach new levels of complex production processes that allow to do new things.
Of course, for some it is fulfilling to just be at the top.
this a good explanation.
capitalist apologists love to invent new terms like “corporatism” and “crony capitalism” that basically just mean “every problem with capitalism”. they then say “capitalism isn’t the problem, the problem is crony capitalism” which makes about as much sense as saying “capitalism isn’t the problem, the problem is all of capitalism’s problems”.
