I’ve always hated the idea of using a subscription/cloud hosting for password management. I feel like I should have a LOT more control over that stuff and I don’t really want to hand all my keys over to a company.
All my secrets have been going in a highly encrypted archive with a long passphrase, but obviously that isn’t convenient on all devices. It’s been fine, I can open it on any computer but it’s not super quick. It does have the advantage of being able to put in multiple files, notes, private keys but it’s not ideal.
Anyway, finally found something that isn’t subscription, and has a similar philosophy - a highly encrypted archive file, and it’s open source and has heaps of clients including web browser plugins so it’s usable anywhere, and you can sync the vault with any file sync you like.
Thought you guys might appreciate the find, password managers have always been a bit of a catch 22 for me.
Note for android i found keepassxc the best app, and i’m using KeePassHelper browser plugin, and the KeePassXc desktop app as well as the free official one. Apps all seem to be cross platform.
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Why did people stop using notepads (actual physical ones) for this? No digital storage, no leaks. Besides, after a couple of times you get the muscle memory of typing in the passwords anyway.
I have a different password for each service I use. Each password is 30+ characters long and completely random with letters, numbers and special characters. There’s no way I could remember any of them and they’d be a hell to type out manually. I use KeePass on every device I own and it’s synced over my NAS. So it’s super convenient and no risk for leaks.
My password manager contains about 600 passwords by now. I use 30+ passwords on a daily basis for work (IT industry) so no chance in hell that I’ll remember half of those. And the ones I need maybe once a year?? Good luck without a manager.
I did this, stored in an encrypted container, for a long time. Problem is it’s not scalable unless you start reusing passwords across different sites and services, which is itself a terrible practice.
Switched to Bitwarden (self hosted) several months ago and am very happy with it.
Try to remember
(2m(&$9hso2 Ok_(#
We will see how fast you can remember that after a long and mentally exhausting work day :)I’m using randomly generated 64-character passwords with upper/lower-case letters, numbers, and symbols.
I prefer not to manually enter them every time.
Also someone could find and photograph your notepad and then all your passwords are compromised in one go.
Tell me you use the same password everywhere without telling me you use the same password everywhere
And they’re very likely way too short
For decent privacy oriented tool recommendations, here’s a list.
https://www.privacyguides.org/en/tools/
There was some drama about the webpages so I’ll link both to avoid angry users. Anyway, KeePassXC is on there, which it seems like it’s a fork of KeePass, you might want to check it out.
Love KeePass. When LastPass enshittened, I went looking for something immune to enshittification. Best money I never spent
Did LastPass do anything besides charge for it service?
They didn’t use strong encryption by default, Something about not enough iterations of whatever algorithm they use.
They also got hacked (more than once) , which is roughly when they announced the encryption issue.
I feel like they got bought by a shitty company too, but that’s beyond me.
There have been reports that some of these vaults that were stolen have already been compromised, though not sure if there is any proof.
OK, it’s just not what enshitification means. I don’t like the term but if you’re using it wrong it’s just confusing.
Fair point, I misunderstood. Thought you were asking for more general points.
As for enshitification, I suppose it started in 2015 when they were bought by LogMeIn (I looked it up), that’s where it generally always starts. Don’t know if the service degraded as I switched around that time. Though getting hacked twice in six months is pretty bad for a company guarding the publics secrets
I really like Strongbox on Mac for managing my Keepass-DBs. It is very well integrated and there even is a „no phoning home“ version that strictly runs locally.
and there even is a „no phoning home“ version that strictly runs locally.
Shouldn’t that be all the versions?
Why would a password manager app that uses a local database need to phone home?
Maybe I expressed it a bit awkwardly. The other version has some integrations for syncing with Dropbox etc. and some third-party libraries. Strongbox zero is stripped of all of that.
Ok that makes more sense lol
I personally prefer bitwarden, using a self-hosted vaultwarden. It’s free, it syncs, it’s easy to use.
Same, and the apps work great.
Passphrase generator, simplelogin/addy.io integration and sync.
This makes my life so much easier.
I recently made the switch to Vaultwarden when I read a series of articles making predictions about passkeys and how they are lining up to replace passwords. Bitwarden apparently is ready to implement whatever standard becomes most popular and I had FOMO of being left behind if I stuck with keepass only. Previously I was using various keepass compatible apps and then syncing the KDBX database with my Nextcloud. (Vaultwarden is the selfhosted fork of Bitwarden)
Vaultwarden isnt a fork because bitwarden isn’t selfhostable. Bitwarden has an official selfhosted version. Vaultwarden is a lightweight rust version of the backend. As the selfhosted version by bitwarden is quite fat. Vaultwarden uses the official webapp of the webvault in their fork.
I used to use keepassxc for years. Kept it synced with sync thing, though eventually work blocked networking with sync thing so I swapped to vaultwarden and never been happier.
Why sync your passwords from home with your work computer? Just keep them on your phone.
25+ character passwords that change frequently, at least in my case.
I could see it being tedious if you had to manually enter long, random string passwords regularly. Though I suppose you could change them to something easier to type. Ctrl+shift+L (bitwarden extension autofill shortcut) is just so much more convenient.
Why enter personal passwords on work computers so frequently?
This sounds like an underlying assumption of how time is being spent rather than a technical issue.
I have been using KeePass for eight years. Used to just shuffle the file around with Google Drive, now I have it sync’d with Syncthing across a few devices. I use its notes feature to store associated data like S3 keys and it stores my SSH key and KeePassXC can automatically add it to an SSH agent.
I don’t really have any complaints about it.
Are there advantages to this over self hosting Vaultwarden?
No in my opinion its worse in every way
I used to be a KeePass user, but moved away because I was ultimately syncing the database using OneDrive, which I felt at that point it was a cloud password manager, which I didn’t like for being open to the internet and entrusting the security of the company hosting it.
And yes, I moved to self hosted Vaultwarden with Tailscale and haven’t looked back.
Main thing I prefer about KeePass is that it’s a straightforward app that creates a file. Self-hosting a database seems just that much more complicated.
Mine is a 3-lines-script that gpg-decrypts to runtime-dir, opens editor, encrypts back, deletes in runtime-dir. Password done via zenity/yad.
Yeah, I’ve been wary of cloud based options so gone with KeePass and syncthing to leep things synced locally.
Love KeePass, I use it to store all my passwords including to SyncThing, then I keep my KeePass file in my SyncThing instance so I can recover from a disaster. Definitely nothing could go wrong with that ;-)
I installed KeePass(XC) on Android, iOS, Windows, Linux, Mac, for Firefox and Chrome and it’s all synced via encrypted cloud share. It even has OTP functionality so you don’t have to manually type 2FA codes.
If you keep the database in the cloud I recommend using a keyfile in addition to the password which is NOT kept in the cloud.
Very secure that way even if your cloud account is compromised.
I keep TOTP in a separate database.
Whats it called on ios? Keepassium?
Yes
KeePassium and Strongbox are both great.
Strongbox is rather expensive if you pay and missing too much if you don’t pay imo. I use KeePassium.
There’s also Strongbox available for ios
I don’t have an iPhone but I set it up for a family member. I remember we tried out two apps because the first one didn’t have what we needed. One of them was Keepassium, but I don’t remember of it was the one we kept.
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it’s written in C++ and not C# so it has better native integration with OSes like Linux
Not sure what you mean by this. Any APIs that can be called from C++ can also be called from C#. C# apps run natively on Linux, and they support self-contained deployment and native AOT (ahead of time) compilation meaning they can run on any Linux system even if it doesn’t have the .NET Core framework installed.
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s in Debian, for example, it’s going to pull the Mono runtime to execute it as well because it’s been built, like most C# apps, for JIT compilation.
.NET Core handles JIT compilation file. It looks like the KeePass developers have not yet updated it to use .NET Core though, which is why it’s pulling Mono in.
KeePassXC definitely looks nicer, but it’s definitely possible to do that with C# too. The KeePass developers just haven’t kept up with modern .NET.
written in C++ and not C# so it has better native integration with OSes like Linux
What do you mean exactly?
Are there users that have tried both Keepass and Vaultwarden? I enjoy using Vaultwarden on my Synology but I wonder if it’s worth switching to Keepass.
I switched from keepass to vaultwarden years ago and for my usage I wouldn’t switch back.
I needed to be able to share some passwords with other people. I think the clients are much better. I like having a website available as a backup to access a password. All in one package that works well so I don’t need separate mechanism to synchronize between different installations. I like the easy sharing secrets through links and not having to send in cleartext with emails or texts.
And for selfhosting I like that you only need the server only for syncing newly added secrets - if vaultwarden had to be online always I’d switch back.
I have both set up right now.
Things I like better about KeePass:
KeePass doesn’t use the cloud, you don’t have to worry about the server getting compromised or going down because there’s nothing public-facing to hack. You always know where your password database is.
KeePass lets you encrypt the database with not only the master password but also using the challenge-response from a YubiKey. That means every time you save your DB the encryption key is rotated and the DB is actually encrypted by two authentication factors.
While both can add custom fields to an entry, I like that KeePass has the option to set fields as protected so their contents are hidden like the passwords.
Things I like better about VaultWarden:
Convenience.
You can log in to your VaultWarden account on any device from the browser. KeePass requires some software to access the DB.
The VaultWarden companion software is just better. It just does autofill better. KeePassXC/DX work well but just not as well as the BitWarden software.
Other thoughts:
Syncing passwords between devices with KeePass requires 3rd party software like SyncThing. If you break/lose/etc your VaultWarden server you could lose all your passwords with it.
Always make/test backups.
I like that KeePass has the option to set fields as protected
Vaultwarden can do that, though its quite stiff in some aspects like folders… subfolders? nonexistant…
Folder/subfolders work just fine… when you make folder ‘a’… you can add subfolder b by typing ‘a/b’
Ah, I couldn’t find that option.
I can add custom fields to an entry but I can’t designate them as “protected”
Of course I also thought at first that you couldn’t attach files but I guess you can, they just didn’t seem to transfer over from my KeePass DB
The interface is weird and unintuitive at times…
I have a dropdown menu at the button “New custom field” and can select “Hidden”.Oooh thank you!
Can’t believe I missed that
I use a yubikey on bitwarden (vaultwarden) just fine…
Custom protected fields exist.
And you can always hide it in a vpn.A big problem with keepass is if two updates to passwords try to sync simultaneously… sync- thing/ other synching software can’t merge only the updates in each file.
I also use aYubiKey in VaultWarden but the key is not used to generate the encryption keys, only the master password is, so you don’t get that added security and benefit of the encryption keys rotating every time you save the DB.
You can have keepass on a USB drive, an exe version that doesn’t require install, along with your db.
You sure can.
But that’s not perfect.
Often businesses will lock down their computers to prevent unauthorized software from running at all, not just installing.And not lock down random external sites they see a user visiting every day that aren’t related to their work functions? Sounds like the SOC needs to get better at their monitoring.
In my experience, locking down non-work sites is much less common than locking down USB devices and unknown executables. USB devices and random executables are more of a security risk as a USB drive can be used to exfiltrate data very quickly while an executable could contain ransomware, other malware, keyloggers, etc. Sites are sandboxed and limited in terms of what they can do.
Like the other commenter said, typically websites are less locked down.
It’s simpler to sandbox the browser and prevent unauthorized software from running than to block out most of the Internet and deal with complaints all day about the web restrictions
I’m on Bitwarden right now and have been thinking of switching to KeePass. My issue keeping me from actually switching is the convenience factor. Can’t imagine making it even more annoying to use for my SO
I don’t know if they fixed it, I hope so, but not long ago there was a very dangerous vulnerability that allowed an attacker to bring able to access the master password.
I was using it long time ago, then I discovered Bitwarden and I’m really happy with it. I suggest you to have a look, in terms of UI is better and can be self hosted too.
I think that vulnerability was a non-issue. Someone could get to your password if they had full access to your machine to run arbitrairy code. But if someone has that much access, it’s already game over.
But yeah, Bitwarden is better IMHO
What’s amusing is I am purposely not paying for bitwarden because of the check against darkweb leaks or whatever type feature when you pay. That’s seems like an anti privacy thing. I understand it’s a good idea albeit seems to expose a lot of information about you. I would like to do vaultwarden but don’t think I can trust self hosting myself without paying monthly for a vps which I don’t want to do. Home Internet hosting seems to unreliable to me for something that important.
Just random thoughts of mine here.
The bitwarden clients also work when there’s no connection to the server, since they sync the vault. You just can’t add any new entries. That means spotty internet is not that much of an issue in terms of using it. It also means, that every device that has a client installed and gets used regularly (to give the client a chance of syncing) is automatically a backup device.
I host vaultwarden at home. No real need for a vps since your passwords are synced to your phone or laptop(whatever client you’re using) and you can just sync it when you’re home if you make changes, or setup a VPN (I use wireguard) and sync on demand when needed.
That said, I do sync my database to a vps for dr purposes incase my home server suddenly vanishes… for critical services I follow a 3-2-1 backup rule but it’s not absolutely essential.
because of the check against darkweb leaks or whatever type feature when you pay. That’s seems like an anti privacy thing. I understand it’s a good idea albeit seems to expose a lot of information about you
For the password leak checks, your passwords are never transmitted. They are one-way hashed locally, and then only the first few characters of the hash are checked against the API provided at https://haveibeenpwned.com which is run and designed by Troy Hunt, one of the most respected people in the cybersecurity industry. He collects major password breaches and makes them available to check against without actually exposing the data. It’s perfectly safe and secure.
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Yep I’m very impressed with syncthing. I just started using it a few weeks ago.
