Since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank, and 29 in Israel, according to the Ministries of Health in Gaza and Israel respectively. The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
Yet some people still claim Israel is the victim! When the truth is that Israel is a terrorist state.
Of course they are also the victim. Hamas slaughtered adults and children with no remorse. Now Israel is returning the favor.
Both sides are aggressors and victims.
If someone shoots your dog and then you go to their house and shoot their dog. Are you justified? Perhaps. But you are still shooting a dog. And that makes you a dog killer.
2 wrongs do not make a right. Never will.
yeah they aren’t shootin up the dog, they are slaughtering their entire family and burning their home, the proportions are a bit off here
How many Americans were killed by Nazi Germany vs the other way around?
Intentions and moral frameworks matter, not only the sheer numbers of casualties.
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Hey, don’t you bring Billy Talent into this
I actually like Billy Talent too 😄🙃
The ol’ “you shot me in the foot so I burnt down your neighborhood and killed your entire extended family” defense. Unbeatable in the court of law.
I agree, except I think Israel is the one to both start and end this.
I burnt down your house and killed your family, but because you shot me in the foot, I’ll burn down your neighborhood and kill your entire extended family.That one doesn’t hold up as well in court though…
there’s a history of violence on both sides since the post-ww2 era. no one really has time or any real inclination to attend court
Ah the ol’ “history of violence and I’ve got more killing to do, so ain’t no time for court” defense. An interesting strategy. Suppose it depends on the judge.
it’s got more to do with the accused/accuser - neither are going to visit a courtroom (ie: the hague).
come on man, you’re not even following the format of the joke here.
Don’t forget how they’ll cry to all their friends and relatives that they were the victims all along.
It’s a bit more complicated than that no?
No it is not and all the douche saying “hu it is a bit more complicated” are just full of crap. This is smoke and mirrors. There’s no fucking sense, legitimization to their campaign on civilians, just fucking no.
It’s becoming quite simple…
Only if you are intellectually lazy and morally stupid.
No, it’s not complicated at all actually.
If you find it not complicated then you are either uneducated and not impartial
I hope for the former and that you will educate yourself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict)
Apartheid is not complicated. Sorry if that’s hard for you to understand.
Article 34 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV states that the taking of hostages is prohibited
I’m sorry that you are so clouded by hate
Israel is an apartheid state. Apartheid is the root cause of the entire conflict. It’s also illegal under international law. This isn’t hard.
I agree. But Israel’s apartheid actions are not just cause to enact rocket strikes, torture, suicide attacks, mass taking of hostages, mass attacks on innocents, or the beheading of children
It is hard, because there is no one side that has so far not committed a war crime
It would be interesting to see Israel completely loose their minds, put aside any hint of western morals, and actually act like everyone claims they do. Like a real terrorist state… Like hamas…
How long before everyone launches their nukes?
Westerner are immoral The US is in command 🏞️🌅🇵🇸🔜🔏
No one is launching the nukes, because, well…first that’s not how nuclear deterrence works, like, at all. And second, most of the people with nukes are in favor of and support Israel. You are so off base in your comprehension of global geopolitics.
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It’s not interesting actually, it seems to be what is happening now and it’s sickening.
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I think it’s naive to think you can eradicate Hamas. The Brits couldn’t eliminate the IRA in Northern Ireland, nor could the Soviets eliminate the mujahideen. The US and French failed with the Viet Kong. The US just gave up on the Taliban…
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no victims, right. https://lemmy.world/post/7539955
Obviously there are individual victims, but as a nation Israel is mostly responsible as those who have all the power.
Having power = the ones responsible?
They have no power in Gaza. They haven’t had any for the last 15 years. The ones in control of Gaza and its population id Hamas, and the ones who doesn’t take care of poor Palestinians is Hamas. And the ones who get foreign aid and uses it for rockets instead of infrastructure is Hamas.
Power != Responsibility. Life isn’t spiderman.
Israel has all the power over Gaza. They control who or what goes in and out. The way Palestinians have been treated I’m not surprised at all that they have ended up with extremist leaders.
They control everything in and out huh… Does that include the rockets and anti-tank ammunition Hamas has?
Give me a break. They had a free hand running their own region for over a decade, and that’s what came out of it. Lots of military means - zero safe zones for civilians.
They are using way superior power only to oppress, that’s why they have more responsibility.
They use their power only when needed, which is very frequently given that their neighbors advocate for civilians giving away their lives to serve a religious ideology, meaning they’re under a constant threat on their safety.
Yes, they’re more powerful. But no, they don’t only oppress using it. If they did, you’d have what china did to their muslim minority. The use of power is large, but not disproportionate to their level of security risk.
People see will see these numbers and still argue “they are showing restraint, if Israel was really evil they would just carpet bomb them all.” Like what the fuck is this then?
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Operated by Hamas, so it would not be outlandish to say these numbers are being inflated in order to push public opinion and international support
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Historically they stand up to even Israels secondary verification. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.
This excuse of “how is it genocide if there are still Palestinians alive? huh?” is such bullshit. Yes, let’s wait for Israel to kill the very last Palestinian before we can bring out our memorials and cry over the genocide.
“The Nazis are killing Jews? Why would they put them on train cars then and have them work? Wouldn’t they just shoot them or bomb them right there? I don’t think it’s really as big a deal as it seems.” -American in 1940
Well they are the victims of a terror attack by the Hamas and have a right to defend themselves also not by any means of course…this conflict has two participants who are equally involved in this conflict, your point of view seems quite one sided to me.
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Wow not a single mention of the infants and children being held hostage in Gaza. Apparently they only care about saving some of the children
Dude if you’re triggered by them just ‘counting’ their dead, there’s something wrong with you.
Are you triggered by my comment where I was not triggered, just pointing out biased reporting?
This is an article about children who are dead, not those still alive.
It’s almost like the article isn’t about that.
Also shady that the number dead in Gaza comes from “The Ministry of Health in Gaza” aka Hamas controlled data.
Maybe ALLOW other people in? It’s almost like Israel has closed all borders and is actively killing journalists, oh wait, blackout etc… Oh wait, they DID?
Until they do, you have no other option than to believe them. Why not? Because it serves you to think that way and push people online to automatically dismiss and disbelieve everything that’s happening right now.
I could also start making the case that I don’t believe Israel lost so 1400 people, just to annoy you. But I won’t, because they died and the least I can do is acknowledge that.
They published the ID numbers of those who they claim are dead. It will be possible to prove/disprove it in time. It’s not like they are throwing out a number without any backing.
Who should it come from?
No one.
They just don’t want to hear about it because it challenges their worldview. If this came from a source outside of Gaza, they’d criticize it for not being first hand information. And of course anything that comes from inside Gaza is hand waved as Hamas controlled. They’ve created a system that allows them to selectively write off any source that challenges them with the wave of a hand.
Thank you for describing what I’ve wanted to say for days. There really is an effort online to dismiss anything that’s happening inside Gaza.
or just willfully ignore
I’m saving this one for later. Holy shit that’s well put.
You know Palestine isn’t some hidden shadowy back woods no one can see? There are aids groups there, Doctors Without Borders, journalists, other experts. They don’t have a magical authoritarian lock on information. You can see the bodies.
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Hamas lead no? Would not be surprised to see the numbers in Gaza being inflated
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
You mean you don’t trust the word of religious fanatics? SHAME SHAME SHAME
The health ministry is completely separate from Hamas
Source? I was under the impression that Hamas was in charge of all Governance in the Gaza Strip
EDIT: Following the 2007 Hamas takeover of Gaza, a month-long doctors’ strike ensued due to political disputes. The new Gaza government, with Basem Naim as Health Minister, replaced Fatah-affiliated hospital directors and staff with Hamas loyalists. Jomaa Alsaqqa, a 20-year surgeon at al-Shifa Hospital, lost his job due to his Fatah support and faced arrests and assaults since the Hamas takeover. In response, Naim stated “the hospital managers weren’t fired for political reasons: they were fired because of managerial, financial, and moral corruption in the hospitals.” per wikipedia article here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry)
While there are political independent and non political members of the Gaza Health Ministry it is still under the direction of Hamas itself.
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. None of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
From literally 8 comments down, don’t want you to have to break your scroll wheel.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.
This is how you ensure there’s another generation of radicalized individuals to have to combat.
Not if you kill them all…
A common thing to do back in the day was to not only kill the king, but the members of his family. (Especially the sons). It’s brutal, but effective
(And obviously humans should be above that in 2023, but here we are)
Netanyahu quoted from First Samuel 15:3, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’”
The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
It’s tragic how often the abused become the abusers.
I’ve has mixed feelings about this conflict for a while now. On one hand I understand the need to preserve a people, culture and way of life especially given that aformentioned people was nearly exterminated in the wost ways. On the other hand… wt actual f. Little children don’t support Hamas. They’re blameless in this, and to murder so many innocents just to get to the enemy is sickening
To make it perfectly clear - the fact that children are dying is reprehensible and it should be stopped. Even if one innocent child died, from both sides, it’s one too many.
That being said, this is a very good example of propaganda by partial information and numbers manipulations.
The UN report in question identifies anyone under the age of 18 as a child. The Al-Qassam brigades recruit teens from the age of 16 to active combative roles (some reports suggest an even younger age).
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens, and the UN report references that. The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them? The ministry of health published the numbers. You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims, if you like.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
All of them are fucking children. Everyone under 18 is a child. Stop this bullshit.
It’s disingenuous to suggest however there isn’t a difference between civilians and fighters. Either way though, yeah, they’re all children. I don’t know if it’s more horrifying for a child soldier to be killed vs a civilian child either. It’s two different kinds of horror.
Bigger font doesn’t make you more right.
You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims
That’s just the thing with manipulating numbers - we can’t do the math. That’s why it’s so effective and why you need to apply critical reading to these kind of reports.
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them
Answer me this - say you have a group of people preparing to launch a rocket. That rocket is inaccurate but they aim it towards a city. There’s a high chance that you’ll be able to intercept it, but there’s always a chance that it’ll fall on a building and kill civilians.
You can target this group, drop a bomb on them and stop them from firing this rocket. Now you learn that 2 of them are 17 years old. Do you drop the bomb? Or do you let them fire the rocket?
An armed child is still a fucking child, what is wrong with you. How many Palestinian rockets have killed Israelis in the last decades? Israeli people would be safer just letting them launch the rocket in your example, because the retaliation against Hamas like what we are seeing is what is causing their population to be so young and militant, further fueling the conflict. They have been killed for decades, watching the world support and cheer on their enemy.
In that example, I would be in prison because I refused to join the IDF.
So by avoiding any action you would allow them to fire the rocket.
I understand and respect that.
It’s a huge gray area and just one example of the complex morality component of this conflict.
By avoiding being part of the apartheid system of Israel, I’m one step in the right direction.
So idf should disarm and let their families and fellow countryment be slaughtered like lambs?
The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment. A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child, and no amount of pretending otherwise by propagandists like yourself will change that fact.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment
How so?
A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child
I agree, but I’ll copy what I answered the other comment about this exactly: It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
You just don’t get to throw up your hands and say “thats war.” This is not normal and should in no way be normalized (as you seem to be attempting to do.)
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You’re ignoring the main points and attacking a straw man again.
no, just tired of your shtick
Reasoning? Critical thinking? Logic? Seeing things as complex rather than one side is 100% correct and the other is 100% at fault? Answering to the point instead of bombastic statements or disinformation aimed to trigger emotional responses?
Stop behaving like a fanatic.
It’s neither reasonable nor logical to justify the murder of innocent children. And yet here you are…
Hey you’re the one who is suggesting we redefine what childhood is to excuse more of Israel’s crimes.
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A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda? Please explain this, because you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many.”
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed? Are you saying that’s why these minors were murdered? Do you have proof of this? Because your statements seem to be the ones which are unfounded and sound a lot like propaganda to excuse the murder of thousands of children.A common tactic by propagandists is to call inconvenient information propaganda. It’s like how fascists tend to blame their opponents for engaging in behavior that only the fascists are actually engaging in.
A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda
Absolutely, 100%. Human rights organisations are not unbiased news outlets - they have agendas and objectives. Their objectives are commendable ones, and the work they do is invaluable, but they still utilise propaganda as a means to an end. As good and important as this end is, their reports should be received with the same amount of caution and critical thinking as any report coming from anyone with an objective in this.
you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many
That’s just a straw man. I never suggested that it’s not that many. It can be 3,257 and it could be 0. I just pointed out the information manipulation.
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed
It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
Another point for you to consider is that traditionally, in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
They are the ones dropping the bombs on them in a city they surrounded with walls? When should they be held to account for these virtual murders? This is an offensive action, not a defensive one. These kids aren’t coming at soldiers in waves, they’re being crushed under rubble from bombs dropping on the places they are attempting to find safety. Whole families dying like that.
You need to get out of whatever echo chamber you’re in.
What do you mean? You can watch it happening, it’s not a secret. There aren’t attacks on Israel right now, they aren’t being invaded, Gazans are pinned in a box being slaughtered in one of the densest cities in the world.
What? Of course there are attacks on Israel right now.
There is ongoing mortar and rocket fire from Gaza on Israel
Also Lebanon fires rockets hitting Israel, in collaboration with Palestine
The death toll in Israel is lower because they have infrastructure that protects the civilians from the rockets.
While in Gaza the population is extremely dense with about 12000 people per square kilometre and no shelters.
Also Hamas wants civilians to stay in the zones because Hamas entire defense strategy depends on Israel killing civilians in Gaza. If that wasn’t happening, much less people would stand behind Palestine.
You can find here an analysis from the NATO on how Hamas uses “human shields”.
Sorry, the only echos I hear is the horrified screams of children getting bombs dropped on them as they starve and die of thirst in Gaza. Maybe help them get out?
You do realise that Hamas is also dropping bombs on Israel the whole time, yes?
Making even Palestinian children look like potential terrorists is the real propaganda here. Easier to kill a child if you think they could be a soldier. You’re not able to confirm this nor can anyone, but you are prepared to go on this “hunch”, make children of Gaza less like children and more like military so that killing them is easier to stomach.
The only way to deescalate is to give Palestinians justice. There is no benefit to Israel from carpet bombing Gaza
So could you clarify your point:
- “kill every kid that’s holding a gun, no matter the age”, or
- kill kids between 16-18 as long as they hold a gun I am really curious.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in? Or we should just preemptively kill any kid as they might turn into future terrorists.
Oh and by the way, I am pretty sure the Palestinian population are viewing the Israelian as terrorists and Hamas as liberators the same way you see Palestinians and IDF. So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge.
Not defending Hamas, giving you just some food for thought maybe and if you disagree with this statement, could you provide me a definition of a terrorist and try to apply it through the eye of the regular Gazan.
I really couldn’t say in this case, and I’m very happy that I’m not the one that has to make this choice . Quite a few soldiers in conflict areas lost their lives because they couldn’t either.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in?
Read my first sentence in the original message.
So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge
There’s point of view and there is the international law. The legal terms is that the IDF is a country’s military and as such it is expected to uphold international treaties, it is held to high standards and it receives a lot scrutiny when it goes out of line or makes mistakes. Hamas is a terror organisation and therefore none of this applies to it, but also killing its operatives is not considered murder or a war crime.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion - it’s about intent. Organisations that have the clear intentions to kill and hurt as many civilians as possible are clearly terrorist organisations. Internationally recognised organisations that do not and try to minimise civilians casualties are not. Everything in between is a case by case gray area.
I can’t attest to what the average person in Gaza thinks, but I reckon after 20 years of Hamas rule a lot of the people are already indoctrinated and their world view, specifically regarding Jewish people, is at least somewhat detached from reality. This is clearly reflected in the pro Palestinian Arabic social media profiles.
The terrorist designation of a group is specific to the countries calling that group a terrorist group. Most nations of the world actually do not designate Hamas as a terror group. There is still a responsibility for a state military to adhere to international laws of conflict when engaging a non-state group.
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Eh, I generally feel like anything aimed at people under 18 in the context of an air bombardment is still not a justifiable murder. I’m with ya, Hamas fucked up. What they did is indefensible, but also taking a life from someone who hasn’t even had the opportunity to understand the world and the chance to make those bigger decisions from a grown place yet is very wrong to me.
If it’s a battle, back and forth, firing guns, kill or be killed, I guess that’s just how it shakes out. I don’t expect someone to just let themselves be shot there by a minor (whether they should be there is another story, but ok). But If you just have suspicions this kid is an enemy, or you see them with a gun, or hell you even have solid evidence that kid has been recruited as a child soldier, I don’t think you get to judge them with death by bomb outside the moment. That’s part of what’s so difficult in discussing or defining what constitutes a child soldier or a legitimate target. These kids already got robbed of so much in their ability to live a normal childhood. In America countless black kids were cast as “super predators” in the 90’s in much the same way. I respect where your coming from and don’t doubt your sincerity but believe we just have a difference of opinion on this matter.
According to this NPR article, the age range both you and the commenter are describing (15-19) represents 10.6% of the male population. The combined totals below them = 40.8% of the population. So what, a fifth = 639 of them in that age range died. Then what percentages of those deaths are militants? Say 50% So 320? Out of 3,195?
Obviously you can’t account for distribution and other factors without further info, but still I think that it’s more right than it is wrong then by any stretch of the imagination. You’ve stated similar stuff up the thread but I just don’t feel like to cast this as propaganda by numbers manipulation or partial information is a statement that can be taken at face value, given that the lack of numbers and information are a byproduct of intentional suppression by the power committing the offensive.
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Just one inaccuracy - there were no settlers in Gaza for nearly 20 years.
That’s not inaccurate. He said Palestine. That’s more than just Gaza, it’s the West Bank+ as well. And they have been under absolutely relentless attacks (and murders) by settlers, especially since the 7th. Even though they are divided, they are one people. It’s not like those kids in Gaza don’t know that.
I was referring to “It’s small wonder that people support Hamas and children join the only force that seems to be fighting for them”.
There’s little love (and that’s a huge understatement) between Hamas and the PLO and children in the west bank rarely join Hamas.
A totally fair point. You spoil us all with your reasonable, genial demeanor and commitment to calling out bias.
Hamas is a terrorist group.
Israel isn’t an equivalent. Its a fully fledged nation state with sophisticated military and intelligence agency. Israel’s behaviour should be measured based on how a nation state should act. Not a terrorist group.
If you think Israel is justified in killing children because Hama’s did. Your arguing Israel is a terrorist state, just one your sympathetic to.
I don’t think we should compare Israel to the standards we hold for terrorists. Because we don’t have any standards for terrorists. Additionally Israel’s capability for killing far exceeds what Hamad can achieve.
All the deaths due to the recent Hamas attack is the best Hamas can do. How many people could Israel kill, probably all 2 million in the Gaza strip.
Extremist Christians and extremist Zionists have wanted this for a long time. Only tempered by the west’s intolerance for mass killing. Since the Hamas attack the US and UK have both morally approved of moving into to Gaza.
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Propaganda is what’s coming from your mouth.
Save the Children, in line with OCHA updates, is currently relying on data from the Israeli Ministry of Health for casualties in Israel and from the Gaza Ministry of Health for casualties inside Gaza. Due to the current situation, information and numbers provided by both ministries cannot be verified independently.
important note, since Gaza’s ministry is run by the Hamas and Israel could play those numbers down.
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That is refuted already down the page, but here you go. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.Not that I believe you care, as you attempt to lessen the deaths of scores of children, which certainly is gross!
what do I attempt 🤔
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Do we have the name of these children or even photo?
The nazi, at the very least, kept a listing of them allowing history to take the measure of this shit. Here Israel goes to full obliteration!
Yes we do, thousands of them. They write their names with markers in their little arms and legs, specifically for you @[email protected] . You can go look it up, they published every single name of the confirmed dead so far and pictures of the unidentified. So you can read each and every name of every children bombed, crushed by building and shot in the face.
I think I didn’t get understood. I was sarcastic as the west and Israel love to romance stuff but don’t give a shit here and tend to dehumanize palestinians by, among other things, not naming one of them.
Everybody knows about Emily… give the name of a Palestinian child, pls.
I wasn’t being facetious either. There is a list, published with names and ID cards. Pick one. You’ll have to excuse little 7y.o. Muhammed, he doesn’t have an Instagram account, he was borrowed a Sharpie to write his name in his arm the way his late father taught him the last time Israel bombed Gaza before this one.
link to said list is broken btw https://www.moh.gov.ps/portal/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/تقرير-نهائي-باسماء-الشهداء-1.pdf (link in the article)
I’m gonna try to be the less blunt as I can. But, Palestine has been under siege, and all internet access was cut two days ago, and with it all Palestinian websites were shut down. So, no shit Sherlock, the link is broken. Here is the list transliterated by the Institute for Middle East Understanding.
Thank you for the updated list
The insult is not needed by the way
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Two war crimes don’t make a right. I find it suspect how many members of the press and their families consistently happen to be close to Hamas or their tunnels. Seems more like a blanket excuse to me
Hamas sowing: Haha fuck yeah!!! Yes!!
Hamas reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.
Did you forget to switch accounts? Embarrassing.
No? Do you know why people switch accounts lmao
Ah, just a idiot weirdo that responds to their own comments with no context then. OK champ.
That is a top level comment o.O
Are you okay?
It’s shameful that Hamas terrorists intentionally use children as shields.
You’re disgusting, eff your ‘human shield’ story. It’s like a white manager came up with those words as an excuse for genocide. Just like ‘right to defend themselves’ or ‘but Hamas this or that…’
Ugh, that’s twisted logic, so all civilian casualties should be ultimately attributed to Hamas? None of them can be attributed to perhaps an indiscriminate aerial bombardment running for three weeks?
If the bombing was truly indiscriminate then you’d have a point. But a 3 week WW1 era artillery campaign would have fully leveled Gaza a few times over. In order to honestly believe that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza you must believe that their military, the IDF, is the single most incompetent fighting force to ever walk the planet.
If so then yes, attacking the powerful retards is Hamas’ fault and you can attribute the problems that result to them.
Alternatively if you accept that they are discriminatory in where they bomb, balancing civilian casualties vs. the value of the military targets they’d take out; then that question sort of answers itself.
If this alternative, then yes comingling your government and military infrastructure together to use civilians as human shields (a by the book war crime) makes the predictable civilian casualties that result the fault of Hamas.
Are those the only two possibilities? Is it possible they want plausible deniability while killing as many as they can? Israeli officials have made it clear that do not want Palestine to exist. The defense minister even called for a second Nakba, greater than the first, which was the original mass displacement of Palestinians.
Are those the only two possibilities?
Likely yes. Israel has a parliamentary system so there are always going to be an official in government with a wild take because they’re the last x% of the coalition that got brought in to push them over the top. If they (Israel) wanted to maximize casualties the more reasonable parts of the coalition would fall apart.
Is it possible they want plausible deniability while killing as many as they can? Israeli officials have made it clear that do not want Palestine to exist.
Israel could easily justify tomahawk sized cruise missiles. 20 or so of them would largely wipe out northern Gaza City. And just one into one of the Southern Gaza camps would kill more than the war has so far. So yes you can believe they want to, but you do have to believe them to be incredibly incompetent.
I believe them to have decades of experience managing their foreign advisors and funding, and are skilled at carefully balancing their war against an innocent and subjected people. You’re probably right though that they could basically nuke Gaza and get away with it, but they wouldn’t because the radiation would harm them too. In a war, isn’t it relevant who started the conflict and for what purpose? Who was the first aggressor in the conflict between Isreal and Palestine?
You’re probably right though that they could basically nuke Gaza and get away with it, but they wouldn’t because the radiation would harm them too.
Gaza isn’t large. They could do it with conventional weapons that have no radiation problems. The risk of nuclear fallout isn’t why they haven’t eliminated Gaza, the lack of desire to eliminate Gaza is.
In a war, isn’t it relevant who started the conflict and for what purpose? Who was the first aggressor in the conflict between Isreal and Palestine?
In this conflict, Hamas’ started the conflict. As for who the “first” aggressors; it would depend on how back you wish to look. If we limit the problem to just post British takeover of the region, than the first aggressors were the British fighting the Ottomans and following it up by enforcing property tax law against the primarily Arab populace who hadn’t paid property taxes in a 1000 years to the Ottomans.
So your point is you think there aren’t enough dead Palestinians yet?
Yes, I really wonder how people cannot try to put themselves in the shoes of the other side of the conflict and ask themselves how they are going to feel in that case, and if they would still have the same thoughts.
And I also wonder how many more civilian casualties need to be inflicted to start questioning the rationale of their government. 10K, 20K, 50K, 1M? And how many Palestinian lives are equal to a single Israeli? 10-20-50-100?
Up until 7th of October it was 308 Israelian casualties vs 6407 Palestinians or more or less 21 times more. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties or 2063 (boys, girls and women) vs 61, which is even more staggering, 34x.
They don’t see them as humans.
Western leaders really miscalculated the backlash here. They expected the world to stay quiet as usual and let Israel just do their thing, after all, they’re just Muslims.
They thought the world would support them like they did Ukraine. IF they were in the right, why is every fiber in my body screaming that this is wrong? What Hamas did was wrong, but this is disgusting bloodlust.
1400+250 dead or missing > 8000 dead as of today.
AND they said their war could take months. The only hope I have, is that some European leaders are pushing back finally.
Not I don’t think so. Hamas doesn’t think so. The IDF has the capability to genocide Gazans. Hamas needs Gazans to continue to have aid money to loot. If they believed Israel was willing or wanted to conduct a genocide they’d surrender; because they need the population to continue their lifestyle in Quatar.
I’m saying that based on the strike maps from previous wars and this one and the map (both linked in a different thread on this topic) Israel released about actuve
The UN says that, according to anecdotal evidence, in the north of Gaza, air strikes appear to be systematically destroying residential areas.
according to anecdotal evidence
Like not even a “Hamas says” type evidence?
So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target. Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war. So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas? And is the human cost justified?
Have you ever been trapped somewhere and being a subject to heavy bombardment for weeks with no way to escape, no access to food, water, electricity or fuel? How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?
What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!
Because I know what it would be, there isn’t a single human being that would be happy and not feel utterly miserable in this situation.
So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves? What about all those kids who are currently going through all of this? Why they need to suffer, what’s their guilt?
You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high. But please stop being surprised that this is the case, and stop blaming everything on them. A bit of self reflection can do miracles.
So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target.
Looking at a mapping of the strikes and comparing it with Hama’s tunnel network it does look like they largely line up.
Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war.
Also remember that if they’re targeting underground tunnels you need a lot of ordinance to collapse a tunnel from the air. And if you’re choosing to not use the biggest weapons (which even amongst conventional weapons Israel is clearly not using) you likely need multiple strikes to clear out a tunnel.
So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas?
I don’t think killing every Hamas operative is the goal. Apparently there’s 30-40k fighters in Hamas’ army. I think the goal is to target the support infrastructure, weapons depot, etc… necessary to train and command that army. Hamas had been largely training this army out in the open before the start of this war. And Israel had been respecting their right to have an army for self defense. Now that they started a war they’re trying to take out all the targets they declined to do over the last few years.
And is the human cost justified?
Unfortunately it’s an unanswerable question, as questions of moral reasoning often are.
How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?
Oh I’d hate it. I feel for the Gazan caught in a war zone. I don’t think I’d believe the aggressor to be just. I just hope I wouldn’t be blindsided enough to not realize that my side was the aggressor.
What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!
Oh high. I’m human. Just because I’d make a bad decision in the same situation doesn’t make it a good decision.
So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves?
Honestly, yes. Gaza has self determination, more aid than any other nation of poverty in the world, a favorable trade location, a diaspora capable of generating international remittances, a foreign border and the 1967 peace treaty borders. They can choose peace. They may not; but eventually they will choose peace or they will continue to get stomped on in wars that they start.
You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high.
Gaza isn’t a child. It’s a nation. It can choose it’s destiny. But if it was the metaphor wouldn’t be a parent/child one. It would be a peers in school one. Israel would be the quite, weird kid who hit their growth spurt early and started hitting the gym because they got picked on in elementary school by everyone. And Gaza is the last kid in Middle School who still tries to pick on that kid every recess and complains that they continue to get punched in the mouth when they cross the line. That’s the more accurate metaphor.
I like that you are honest, and you also seem like a reasonable human being, which is admirable. I know the situation is not black and white and that both sides are complicit to the current situation, I just think that the human cost isn’t justifiable, and achieving it at any cost , which seems to be the intent of the Israelian government, even if that means sacrificing their hostages, which makes it even harder to sympathize.
I truly believe that this would only make things worse in the long term for both Arabs and Jews living in the area. And I fully expect the next government to be more far right and extreme in its measures.
And yes, the father/child was a metaphor, but as you put it can also be a school bully (Israel) and systemically bullied kid (Palestine).
And I think tunnels were first constructed to facilitate the trade between people in Palestine and the neighbouring villages and towns outside Gaza, but then were repurposed by Hamas for their war operations. I mean logically thinking of the right of free movement wasn’t so tightly regulated those tunnels would have probably never been built in the first place. And if Palestinians weren’t so heavily oppressed Hamas wouldn’t be in power right? So in a way Hamas is the reaction of years of ill treatment of Palestinians.
In 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin.
So one can argue that if this Intifada didn’t occur, Hamas wouldn’t exist nowadays. It was an angry reaction of desperate people (not defending here), just giving a bit of food for thoughts.
And one may also argue if Israel miraculously manage to destroy Hamas, there would be soon another group taking their place in the open vacuum so this would solve nothing in the long term. The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarment of the Hamas war wing, which I don’t see happening with the current government.
And one may also argue if Israel miraculously manage to destroy Hamas, there would be soon another group taking their place in the open vacuum so this would solve nothing in the long term. The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarment of the Hamas war wing, which I don’t see happening with the current government.
in all honesty I don’t think there is any good outcome from this outside of a potential return of Fatah into Gaza
In the past Hamas was willing to work with Israel to avoid violence under the assumption that Israel would assist with Aid
However with Israel’s recent actions in the West Bank over the past few years I do not believe that there will be any true lasting peace until there is a political shift in Israel’s leadership
I am fully with you on this!
I like that you are honest, and you also seem like a reasonable human being, which is admirable.
Thank you for the sentiment. Especially online I think that can get lost.
I know the situation is not black and white and that both sides are complicit to the current situation, I just think that the human cost isn’t justifiable, and achieving it at any cost , which seems to be the intent of the Israelian government, even if that means sacrificing their hostages, which makes it even harder to sympathize.
I guess I’ve just not been convinced that Israel is willing to achieve it “at any cost.” Given my knowledge of modern warfare, granted which is only an armchair level, it does seem clear that Israel is fighting with many self imposed limitation all designed to minimize the civilian casualties that must be suffered. I think that’s the core of why most are sympathetic; they see a similar self-restraint on the part of Israel’s armed forces. It’s almost been impossible to follow the last 20 years or so of these off again on again conflicts and not see the pattern of Hamas’s terrorism and war crimes; and then see them continue it because they face no international consequences for them.
At some point in this conflict every “neutral” observer will “look closer” at a particularly wild claim made by Israel or Hamas like “Hamas’s HQ is located under a Hospital and they have a torture dungeon under there”, “Hamas launches rockets from UN ran schools”, “Check out Hamas $leader’s dope crib in Quatar” or “Israel shells Hospital 500 children dead.” and time and time again they’re going to see the IDF largely didn’t do what Hamas said they did; and Hamas did what the IDF said they did. And most people can only see so many cases of Hamas recklessly committing blatant war crimes, murdering it’s own citizens, not having elections, calling for genocide etc… before they start to sympathize with Israel.
And yes, the father/child was a metaphor, but as you put it can also be a school bully (Israel) and systemically bullied kid (Palestine).
I guess the issue is that most see the metaphor reversed.
And I think tunnels were first constructed to facilitate the trade between people in Palestine and the neighboring villages and towns outside Gaza, but then were repurposed by Hamas for their war operations.
That’s definitely how the ones in the south near the Rafa crossing were originally constructed. Old fashioned smuggling. But the ones in the North are almost exclusively built by Hamas for warfare purposes. As both weapons depot and as ways to cross the border for raids into Israel without getting detected. The use of those tunnels for warfare has been a recurring theme in the series of conflicts since the disengagement.
No matter the origin, the use of those tunnels for war fighting does make them valid military targets.
So one can argue that if this Intifada didn’t occur, Hamas wouldn’t exist nowadays. It was an angry reaction of desperate people (not defending here), just giving a bit of food for thoughts.
I’d agree with that. Israel surely could have worked faster after the end of the Cold War (and the defacto end of financial and miliatary support from Russia towards Israel’s direct enemies) to establish a 2 state solution. But I do think it’s reasonable to note, that the First Intifada started in '87 8 years after Israel proved it was willing to trade land for peace with the Sinai deal with Egypt.
The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarmament of the Hamas war wing
What sort of concessions would Israel need to offer Hamas and Gaza that they haven’t already offered them?
Let me ask you two questions.
If Hamas is using the Palestinian people as shields and is forcefully preventing civilians from moving away from them, that makes the Palestinian people effectively hostages of Hamas. So if the Palestinian hostages happen to be near Hamas terrorists, are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
Eventually, Israel will find out where the Israeli hostages are being kept. Obviously, there will be Hamas terrorists near them. Are the Israeli hostages acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
If you answered yes to one question, and no to the other, you should ask yourself why you put different value on the lives of innocent human beings. Is it what side of a fence they are born on? What nationality they happen to have? What religion they believe in? The color of their skin?
rationally, no collateral damage is acceptable. realistically, you just need saturation bombing to answer the question.
You say “answer the question”, as in the ‘Palestinian Question’? Just admit you are advocating for a genocide, a wholesale slaughter of a people based on their nation.
if that’s where your mind goes, that’s on you.
I mean support for Israel sounds like genocide apologia, and the ‘jewish question’ was a term used during the holocaust, so it wasn’t much of a stretch.
support for terrorists like hamas is exactly what it sounds like though.
If a group used terrorism in their fight against the Nazis during WW2, I would shun terrorism but I would be a supporter of that group.
are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
What’s the alternative? Let the other 2.4 million in Gaza suffer under Hamas forever? Collateral damage doesn’t magically disappear just because you wish for it.
We’re saving Alderaan from the Rebel infestation by firing the Death Star on it.
Shields and swords, there’s child soldiers too. And I’d be damned if they don’t count a dead 16 year old with an AK as a poor innocent baby that got murdered by Israel…
Shields implies that they would use them to block something. Their death means that they obviously weren’t effective in that. You can only use something as a shield if it stops the enemy from doing that thing. The fact that they were still murdered falls at the feet of Israel. You know, as the people that dropped the weapons on their heads.
No. Terrorist Hamas knew there would be a retaliation for their barbaric murderous attack and should have had all civilians in an area separate from themselves in preparation.
Yes. So when people take hostages or use human shields that’s because good guys don’t kill the hostages or shoot through them. The innocent lives matter. That’s how that works. If you act the same if they’re there or not it makes you just as bad. Maybe worse. Glad I could help you figure that out.
No. Hamas are terrorist barbarians who actively get civilians killed in order to protect themselves.
How so?
Yes. If you get in a car chase after a murder suspect and run over a civilian with your car, you murdered them. Now that murder could be said to be a mistake. If you consciously run over a civilian because they are in the path between you and the murderer that is very much murder. Now if you go around doing that consistently it’s possible you might be the terrorist, as by definition:
terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.
Actually, the law in that case would charge the fleeing subject with a murder or aggrivated manslaughter charge (depending on the state).
If you run from police illegally, you’re responsible for the damages cause in the chase (in most states).
How old are you again?
What, like holding them up to block missile strikes that are leveling neighborhoods?
Duct taped to both hands for dexterity
Duct taped to both hands for dexterity bonus
Jesus tap dancing Christ…
Stop posting obviously false info from a terrorist group.
100 year old charity whose goal is to save children from war is a terrorist group… Are you ok?
Website is called savethechildren. I have been conditioned through hundreds of events that their goal is, in fact, to hurt children. I don’t know how, but I’m certain it shall become true.
removed by mod
Hey, those are anti-apartheid freedom lies
You reveal yourself to be ignorant of anything in this thread when you attempt to disparage people in here as “tankies.”
Please explain to me what a tankie is.
Its ridiculous people just repeat clear lies from Hamas.
And our mainstream news will just repeat it without adding in the source is Hamas. Absolute trash journalism.
