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Women don’t care about men. “It’s the men that are in the wrong”
Had me until the last point. Maybe women need to change their behaviours? Maybe they are responsible for themselves and not controlled by men 24/7?
Maybe they already know that. Not to mention, self destructive views of masculinity, perpetuated primarily by MEN, is obviously the fault of women.
Besides, any woman who dared act like you need their help would almost certainly earn nothing but your scorn.
Take your foolish hot take and go home. Adults are talking.
Maybe you should actually talk to men rather than talking for them.
You’re not all knowing.
Even in that post the two men both said they got support from men but not women.
Time and time again you can look up question on the Internet like “Men why don’t you open up to women?” “Why don’t you cry in front of your girlfriend?” Etc etc. Its always full on men saying “I did that is was a huge mistake, I learnt my lesson.” Then they say women either lost respect for them and dumped them immediately or as soon as an argument happened they used their insecurities against them.
What women don’t seem to understand is guys can call each other cocksuckers but also be there for them when they need it. Girls don’t call their guy friends names but importantly they aren’t there for them.
Maybe you could use this as a learning exercise? I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
Have you considered that your experiences in macho environments with guys could be primarily due to your appearance and demeanor? And that your experiences with women being unapproachable could be due to that same appearance and demeanor, as well as the institutionalized power dynamics and physical inequalities between men and women?
I’m not saying that it’s easy to connect on a deep emotional level with platonic female friends (or romantic partners) as a man. I’m just saying that it’s not necessarily because women are intentionally excluding you; like someone elsewhere in the thread said, many men have been victimized of the patriarchy, too.
Maybe I should give more context. I have been in macho environments but not exclusively. I’m saying a typical macho environments that some women think is horrific and uncaring, is actually more caring and better for mental health of a man than any female relationship outside of a close intimate one.
I’m an guy with a bang in the middle BMI. But I have played rugby a lot and I have done things like camping, fighting, roughhousing, drinking. I’m a typical man’s, man not an extreme example just an average one. I grew up with females friends, had female friends in school, uni and post. Lived with girls. Best friend in work was a girl. Old friendship group from my hometown is 50:50 guys:girls
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men. Whenever you voice your insecurities to them it’s a mistake. The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter (outside of relationships or your mum)
The additional context is helpful, and I’m not trying to minimize your experiences. I’m just saying that an average guy who’s played rugby and is a “typical man’s man” can be inherently and unintentionally threatening to women, even if you personally have a friendly relationship with those women. Now some of this is likely cultural and country specific. I’m guessing from your reply times and mentioning rugby, uni, and camping that you’re from Aus (or at least not the US). Most of my background is in the western US, so I understand that in your situation, things are probably totally different than my experiences. However, I have also spent lots of time in mixed friend groups, in traditional male-dominated areas (including rugby teams, interestingly), in very conservative spaces (as a very liberal person), and my experiences have been markedly different than yours.
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
The issue isn’t necessarily you. Women have been trained through long and often traumatic personal histories that men, especially traditionally masculine men, are dangerous. Add to that the fact that when you start to open up about emotional issues, your behavior starts to deviate from “normal” guy behavior. Not a problem, except that now you’re an average guy (which usually means significantly larger and stronger than an average woman) who is behaving in unexpected ways, which means you’re unpredictable from the point of view of a woman.
None of her perception or fear is your fault, but it is literally a dangerous situation from the woman’s point of view.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men.
I don’t necessarily disagree; I’m just trying to get you to think about whether that’s because women don’t care or because in nearly every culture, women need to be exceptionally cautious around men, especially men in emotional distress that might behave unpredictably. Even if they know you really well under normal circumstances, when you start to deviate from “normal” behavior, women need to be on their guard.
The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter
And that’s where you lose me. Yes, “masculine environments” can be a great place to open up and get emotional support, but they can also reinforce harmful habits and act as an echo chamber (much like male-dominated internet discourse). I’m not saying that you should replace your male friends with female friends, or that you should stop talking to your male friends. I’m just saying that women can also provide that support in many circumstances (in my experience).
If you’re consistently having bad experiences when you talk about emotional issues with women, then it may be the way you present the issues, the group dynamics, or the specific women that you choose to open up to. To say point blank that “The worst, most ‘toxic masculinity’ environments are better than the best women encounter” is where I disagree.
I’m saying women being horrible and hurtful to men is something they need to work on. Using men as an excuse for why women can be horrible is unacceptable.
Let me ask you a question. Are all the stereotypical incels right how they treat women because some women have treated some man bad? No. So why are you saying the inverse is acceptable? That’s the only point I’m making. Women need to do a lot better with handling themselves. That’s not mens fault. Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
For thr record. I’m Welsh and I was in Aus for a time but now I’m in NZ. Coincidently I seen two guys get dumped, one from each country. One happened just after dad died. Other happened when he went home to his nans funeral over the phone.
Rugby is integral to all three of those cultures and women are regularly involved. All blacks are everywhere and are a cultural icon on every from of adverstimement. You’re mistaking how men only that is.
Lol. Yeah, maybe start by being open with women? Like it or not, conforming to what you think a woman expects is you being dishonest; when you only later open up, your own actions contradict the expectation that you previously set.
And, no, the entire Internet is not filled with this incel crap. Maybe the corners you frequent? Who knows.
Perpetuating the failures of our broken patriarchal system does not, in fact, justify it’s existence. Furthermore, starting with this misogynistic crap is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy. But you know what? You do you. At least the chances of you passing this ignorant hatred to your kids will be practically non-existent…
Oh, and uh, no, i have no reason to “learn” misogyny; I happen to be blessed with an amazing relationship specifically because I do NOT subscribe to this useless crap.
In short, you’re wrong, and always will be. Feel free to whine about it, I don’t care. I’m done with this discussion.
I’m open enough with women.
But you got to be realistic. Generally women are sexist, they do like things certain ways, they do expect ideals.
Surprise surprise women aren’t as perfect as you think. Not all problems in the world are due to men.
Women can do a lot better and they should. Rather than just passing the blame they should improve on their own sexist views.
I don’t know why women treating men like shit is mens fault. It happens from childhood too, are you going to say a 5 year old boy is responsiblefor being mistreated by an adult woman? Belive it or not women are responsible for their actions
Didn’t say they were perfect, and didn’t say their actions are your fault. I did say YOUR actions are yours, and yours alone.
And, dude…that’s the only thing you can control. Frankly, whether you are right or wrong in the views you’ve stated is irrelevant. All you’re gonna accomplish is twisting yourself up inside over things you cannot change.
Most importantly, if you use other people’s choices as an excuse to be a shit person, that just guarantees a pattern of lose-lose scenarios in your life. If you’re trying to be miserable, then go for it. But if not, well, you can only control yourself; all other “power” is an illusion.
Another way to put it: the only problems that matter are the ones that are yours. Other people’s problems or choices are just a distraction; that shit ain’t gonna take you anywhere. At least not anywhere you want to be. If you’re not satisfied with something in life, that’s on you to figure out. Blame is useless - it’s not a solution, it’s a trap.
I agree the only problems are your own.
Sometimes it is nice to have help with your problems though. If you are a man and want help with your problems your only choice is to confide in another man.
Women do not want to help men but they expect help from them.
That doesn’t make me miserable that’s just accepting the world the way it is and it’s a life lesson men tend to learn the hard way. That does that mean you should be a shit person at all, it doesn’t mean you should be miserable. All it is is reality that women will expect you to help with their problems but they will not help with yours. Its a harsh truth and life is better once you see it.
Uh, sure buddy. My partner is apparently imaginary, given that women who want to help men don’t exist.
Anyway, choosing to harbor a prejudice against literally half of the human race does, in fact, make you a shit person.
Are you serious? Look at women throughout history, bud. They’ve gotten a raw deal a good portion of the time and many of their toxic traits come from emulating the treatment they’ve received from awful men.
The belief that toxic masculinity is harmful to men as much as women is not incompatible with recognizing that women still deal with systemic misogyny. In fact, they’re two sides of the same coin, the outdated perception that men must always be strong and stoic to protect the weak and emotional women.
Did I say anything to disagree with you?
What I am talking about is women not making a change that they are responsible for and instead avoiding responsibility and blaming it on men.
I agree people should support men more, but like this post being here, reddit, and tumblr is stupid. Here, reddit, and tumblr are the exact places creating hostile unfavorable environments where it’s ok to hate men. Almost all of the man-bashing and non-caring for my well-being I’ve ever experienced comes from sites like these, and the kind of people who use sites like these when it’s IRL stuff. It’s a problem of “the patriarchy” It’s a problem from YOU, yes exactly YOU reading and upvoting this post right now. If you are concerned about the well-being of men, stop actively being a problem towards the well-being of men.
Reddit acknowledges and allows subreddits like r/TheRedPill and r/FemaleDatingStrategy, it is a sponsor of hate and controversy because it allows more profit through sensationalist engagement and data collection.
Yeah I can’t even say you’re many suicide hotline dm’s I’ve got for having a different opinion than someone. Ha ha, so funny, this site and its ilk (reddit) do their best to inflame, pass judgement and exacerbate.
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I think it also has a lot to do with the influence of patiarchy and toxic masculinity on the grieving person.
If you managed to push back against some of society’s expectations on men, know how to express more emotions than “angry” and “horny” and have shown vulnerability in the past, people will find it much easier to approach you.
On the other hand, if someone is working super hard to keep up their “manliness”, you may realize that they’re struggling, but you’ll have reservations about tearing down the crumbling facade they’re desparately trying to preserve.
I never feel pushed into these role of only being able to express angry and horny except on sites like reddit and by people who use sites like reddit. IRL my male friends are talk openly with each other. It’s only a problem when some “hot girl” or SJW type finds out about men having feelings and shames them for it. “The patriarchy” is not the problem. Blaming men for the problems men face is just a form of victim-blaming. It is exactly the kind of thing creating this problem to begin with.
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Yesterday I had a comment from a woman friend along the line of “my daughter says you’re always serious but nice. You should work on that”. She didn’t think of asking me why I am always serious…
Wtf does that even mean?
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Honestly it would be the easiest solution lol
I thought men were supposed to suffer in silence then die early from stress and chemical numbing?
Edit: Funny this popped up in lemmy today https://lemmy.world/post/8222670
On the bright side it is 6 crappy years. Not the good ones of your 20s. Just means a few less rounds of bridge and less years in a home in Florida.
Personally, I’m going to die young even if it kills me. I’ve seen my ancestors’ attempts at old age. I’ll have none of it.
Men have it really hard. So hard, in fact, that people are increasingly turning towards the manosphere.
Rather than taking the terminally online Reddit mod approach of ostracizing MRA’s, incels, MGTOW, red pillers, etc, we should be asking ourselves why people increasingly turn to these movements.
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not a cause of our societal ills, and that is hugely concerning. A deeply misogynistic sex trafficker should not be the role model that today’s youth look up to.
Not trying to downtalk your overall point, but I’ve not really seen young guys talk about Tate. It’s mostly end 20s in my experience.
Definitely not the case here in England. My SIL works as a Science teacher and the amount of Andrew Tate stuff she’s seen pupils spreading around…
There’s. Ricky Gervais show called Derrick, every time I feel I need to just bawl my eyes out I binge that show, it hits you right in the emotions but in a way that makes you feel good.
I highly suggest anyone who feels like they’re nothing or can’t contribute to society or just anyone who enjoys a feel good mockumentary to give that show a burl
I am trans, mtf…
Being a woman is easier and this is why
I’m gender queer, and am biologically male, but presented femininely and used she/her and a feminine name for 7 years or so.
The first time I experienced a good friend seeming like we only interact regularly because they’re interested in dating/hooking up with me warped the way I relate to other people and really helped me understand why women are often so guarded against advances. Men and women deal with very different issues, but both are very real. It’s nice to see people talking about the issues men face also. The way our society treats people on the basis of gender sucks dogshit :(
Homie’s got a Yu-Gi-Oh card description for gender xD
Lol, I don’t generally describe how I got where I am with gender, but the context is relevant to describing the experience I had with that friend
But if I had a yu-gi-oh card it’d have some dope art 😤 I want a sweet-ass mech monster
Yeah I’m just playing 😅. Mech monster sounds dope af though
I wish my dad would reach out and talk with someone about issues. My sister died last year and he decided he didn’t want to talk to his good friend about it because his friend still has two daughters and won’t know what it is like.
He doesn’t have anyone to talk to except for me and my mom, he won’t do therapy to get through his guilt of surviving cancer while she didn’t survive it which if he went to therapy he would realize is ridiculous to have because they were different cancers.
My mom at least is going through therapy which is helping her get through the loss.
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Yes, it’s his fault for not doing this thing. We’ve incorporated the message.
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I remember something similar to this when my mom died 15 years ago. Lots of aunt’s and friends reaching out to my sister to support her, traveling across the country to visit. I don’t think I ever even got a note.
But I do have the thing where I probably wouldn’t have cared either, if not for watching the support my sister got, it never would have occurred to me someone could do those things. And I know those people aren’t my actual friends, so I really had zero expectations from them. I think it was more the insult on top of injury that bothered me. “Not only do we not care, but we’re going to show you what we would be doing if we did care.”
I never took this as a boy/girl thing though. I never fit in in life, still to this day. Just sorta expected.
This is pure envy and you can not do anything about it. Part of being a human.
Im an envious guy myself.
Dude got outright shit on and u call it envy…wow…just delusional.
Feeling entitled is the primary manifestation of envy. It is there for this exact purpose to orient yourself. So that you feel what you expect for equalization, so you dont feel “shit on”. Whether you want it or not, this is envy.
The only reason you have to deny that is because of the negative connotations you associate with envy. You are deluding yourself.
my condolences
I used to be all feminism when I was younger. Now I have two kids, I realized man do a sht ton of things without being recognized. It’s always that “you are the man, you are supposed to do it” kind of thing. But when it’s the other way around like when I asked the ladies what about their “women duties”, it’s all excuse and argument. It can suck balls being a responsible man.
TBF…
On average women do more things like give up careers for child rearing, still do tons of daily drudgery like family organizing, housework, Dr. appointments or school activities, cooking, etc. that all goes unrecognized. Dudes go out and do some yard work on a weekend and then hit the couch like they moved the world and should be waited upon for it. I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work.
So unless you’re directly acknowledging, lavishing praise and love on all the thankless stuff your wife is doing, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
E: huh. Didn’t know this was a red pill /c. Guess men are justified in complaining while we ignore women facing the same problem.
I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work
Well, that seems unhealthy as hell as well. This is the whole stoic to a fault bullshit for both partners now. I’d say vent to your partner and let your partner vent to you about your shitty days. Why live your life together but not be able to share your burdens? Just my two cents though.
Why is working put forward as some sort of prize?
Because when you leave work, you generally don’t have to keep doing it when you get home. Being a stay at home parent tends to be from eyes open to eyes closed kind of gig. There’s a lot of planning that goes into every day, and some of it needs to be planned ahead of time. Things like dinners, for example. Or the doctors appointments someone else mentioned. Or that laundry needs to get done, dishes out away, shit I still need to go shopping for food for the next week, and while I’m out I need to fill this prescription, and after that I need to make sure I’m on time to pick the kids up from school. And once we all get home I need to make sure that they do any assigned homework or practice their instrument. And FUCK I FORGOT TO PULL MEAT OUT OF THE FREEZER.
Being the stay at home parent is a LOT of work… And it never ends. Parents don’t get weekends off or union mandated lunch breaks.
And when the other half gets home from work, a lot of times the expectation is that they won’t have to do much at home.
A lot of times going to work means you get to focus on something else and don’t have to make all the decisions. The mental load gets shifted. You’re getting told what to do rather than having to plan it all out. It’s not always the case, but I’d argue that the majority of times it is.
And that’s one of the things that can be difficult about being a parent and in a relationship. Making sure you’re doing what you can to help lighten the load on your other half. And hell … I’d argue that should be the case regardless of your parental status. Always be trying to make life easier for each other. Don’t ever let it be one way.
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Maybe pre 2000s. NOwadays, man are very much involved in every aspect of the family if given the chance. I get most men still don’t care but it’s changing!
This might be a rare scenario. Both me and my wife work long hours. I am more in charge of the family, kids, chores, and fixing our house. She took everything for granted until one day I stopped doing chores that i have been nagging her for years to do so i can focus on issues surrounding the house(we own a large century old house) I am also the one on top of our kids health, diet, and education. Oh, I cook for the family. Sometimes I told her I am the MoM and the Dad and she’s the friend. Friend can’t raise friends.
Every time I confront the responsibility among us and that she should Mom up, my mom, her mom, and my wife starts accusing me for being difficult.
I had home cooked food on the table every night and I got no recognition from the 3 women in my life. When she made something once in a bluemoon, she got all the praise. My mom dare to gell me I gotta start cooking more for the family. Lmao. I can never win.
I felt very much the same way when I was trying to figure out what was going on and what I believed. What I ultimately landed on is that feminism is really the only game in town when it comes to identifying what is actually happening. I found Bell Hooks’ The Will To Change immensely useful in sorting it out – it’s not men vs women, it’s the patriarchy vs all of us. One thing she wrote in that book that really resonated with me, and is basically what this post is about, is something along the lines of “the first act of violence that patriarchy demands of men is the destruction of their own emotional selves.”
Oh man do I feel that quote at the end
“Man up”, “Boys don’t cry”, “Grow a pair”, and so much more (and worse)
Not only coming from the men in my life but the women as well. My grandmothers were particularly bad about it.
And it started as early as I can remember.
The destruction of the emotional self. Being told the only emotions men are allowed to feel are anger and content.
I’m going to have to check out that book, I think it will help being able to bring my thoughts on the matter into a more easily communicable way.
Sounds like you didn’t stop feministing, sounds like your feminism just got more humanizing, nuanced, and inclusive rather than less.
You can be both a feminist and recognize that men have major struggles too, they’re not mutually exclusive
Egalitarianism > all other isms. Except autism. autism trumps all.
Well, yes, but they’re still not mutually exclusive. For example, I like apples but I also like other fruits as well. Me liking all fruits doesn’t override my liking of apples.
Also, isn’t that still under the umbrella of feminism? Feminism isn’t “only women rule”. Recognizing gender stereotypes affecting men’s mental health sounds very much like a feminist thing.
Feminism isn’t “only women rule”.
Nowadays this seems to really be the case. Not only do “only women rule”, it becomes “men suck” as well. See the recent “I hate all men” thing, as an example. There’s some people who say it as a joke, but there are tons who actually believe it, and worse, act on it.
I’d say misandrism isn’t really as “mainstream” as it used to be a few years ago. Tumblr used to be misandrism central and now you have posts like these. Even now when someone makes sexist comments about men, a lot of the time they happen to be TERFs, further demotivating new people from agreeing with them.
Yeah, currently you can still find misandrist groups, but they are either confined to twitter (either crazy twitter randos or influencers) or to niche communities that have isolated themselves from the world.
Other than that, there’s still the ever present sexist jokes, stereotypes, etc against men that have ingrained themselves in society, but also seem to be dying out too as new generations grow. I wouldn’t really consider it a rising problem unless there is some female Andrew Tate brainwashing teenagers on this side too.
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I am seeing a lot of pushback–presumably from feminists–towards men that are expressing their experiences.
Guys it’s okay to cry.
It’s ok to have emotions.
It’s ok to not be ok.
…But that has not been my experience.
Should it be? Yes, absolutely. But is it now? No. And unfortunately, in my experience, the women that are saying such things–almost always self-identifying feminists–are also often then ones that are unaccepting of any display of emotion in men that aren’t coming from a place of strength. Men are e.g., expected to shrug off grief and depression and go back to work the day after a funeral. I shan’t be too specific for risk of doxxing myself, but I’ve noted that I’m expected to muscle through physical pain and mental exhaustion, while none of my partners–either current or former–will hold themselves to the same standard that I am held to by them.
I cynically think that many self-identifying feminists don’t want to abolish patriarchy, they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
I have made quite different experiences, the people I felt safest to open were feminists.
Edit: I am sorry for your experience and didn’t wanted to downplay it. However, as there are many answers in a similar direction as yours, i wanted to give an alternative experience.
I’m genuinely glad that you’ve had good experiences. It’s possible that my age–I’m pretty sure I’m 20+ years older than the average Lemmy user–has made a difference in the interactions I’ve had. It’s also possible that being neurodivergent has influenced my experiences. I truly don’t know; I’ve only got a single test subject, n=1.
I guess it depends on if they’re actual feminists or misandrists parroting the words and rhetoric. I imagine a terf for example wouldn’t be great
No true Scotsman
Yes obviously. Actually, the people i was thinking about, were basically advocating for a fair society where every person can live ther own way. As women are currently structurally at disadvantage, this leads them to feminism.
they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
100% agree. and most, if not all, don’t realize the burdens men shoulder.
I’ve had similar experiences and when I’ve shared this previously all the response I got was “well date better people” as if I have a line of women waiting for their chance with me to select from.
fucking facts. This has been exactly my experience.
I’ve lost a few relationships for exposing myself as a man with emotions. I don’t plan to make that mistake again. It sucks, but until society changes I can’t.
You do distinguish “self-identifying feminists” individuals who are “pushing back” from the ideology of feminism which is a worthwhile distinction. Because even with a boilerplate feminism 101 ideology around dismantling the patriarchy (and oppressive gender norms) recognizes it harms men as well, and advocates for a full appreciation and humanization of both men and women (and others) as complex sentient and emotional beings (see, equality). The first time I encountered anything about creating space for men to express emotions 15 years ago was through feminists. There’s an entire field of men’s health focused on mental health and dealing with masculinities in health contexts that were built on understandings of gender pioneered by feminist/critical academia. The people “pushing back” against such emotional space and empathy are advocating for things more aligned with misandry rather than feminism.
Yes, I agree; I don’t think that the people that have given me shit are actually living what they claim to believe. (…Which could also be hypocrisy.) I agree with the primary goals of feminism, if that primary goal is the dismantling of gendered power structures and gender norms so that people can be who they are rather than artificially–and negatively-constrained. OTOH, there are plenty of self-identified feminists that make broad generalizations about negative behavior, and apply that generalization to all men; I don’t think that’s helpful, unless your goal is to drive away potential allies such that you can feel justified in your rage.
Ah. So the no true Scotsmen argument.
The problem here is that the cases that I’m referring to are people saying that they’re feminist without believing in or following core tenets of feminism. If I said, for instance, that I was a Christian, and that I believed in sacrificing animals in the temple for receiving forgiveness from sins, you would quite rightly say that I was not a Christian at all, because I didn’t believe in or follow one of the primary tenets of Christianity (e.g., that Jesus dies for our sins, and that he fulfilled the law such that animal sacrifice was no longer necessary; I am not, for the record, Christian, nor do I believe in the idea of sin). Most feminists would argue that the primary tenet of feminism is tearing down gendered power structures; reinforcing gender stereotypes would therefore be not feminist.
Well no, I wasn’t making a judgement of whether or not those people were “true feminists”. I was making a judgement of their actions as being unaligned with the beliefs they claimed.
Humans do things that don’t align with their core values all the time. It’s called making a mistake or doing a bad thing. For example I’m staunchly anti-racism and try to check my actions. Doesn’t mean I never do racist things. Nor does it mean if I do a racist thing, suddenly I’m no longer anti-racist forever and all time. Who tf knows where the line is, but probably it’s around the point where you stop trying.
I just watched Netflix anime ‘Blue Eye Samurai.’ Highly recommended. There’s a scene where a princess is talking to the madam of a notorious bordello that specializes in the unusual. The madam goes on and on about how weak and fragile men are, how they need their egos massaged and need to feel supported.
After reading the post, I realized that this is a pretty common trope in fiction; sex workers talking about how most of their clients are only there because they need something that their jobs/families/communities deny them.
Just a thought.
It’s not just a thing in fiction either; I’ve seen plenty of threads and discussions over the years where real-life sex workers have essentially been saying the same thing. A lot of men are lonely.
That’s what’s amazing to me. Everyone knows about it, but it’s treated like a big secret.
Even in Japanese love hotels, I’ve heard it’s common for men to book someone and just…cuddle for a while. Fall asleep being held. I don’t have to live it to believe it.
