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well, you learn to cope with that eventually. the man is the strong one, the woman is the sentimental one, no matter what equality people want.
that’s the issue bro. that’s why we need change
I’m sorry you’ve been misled.
Lol I hope you can cope with being wrong.
Or they just kill themselves. Male suicide rates are way higher than woman’s.
yeah, some guys can’t cope with all the responsibility they have. well, “some”… many.
“Yeah what if they kill themselves? Their fault”
Who taught you this, and why are you still listening to them?
life taught me that. it’s just how it is mate.
Well…I’m really sorry that you were never emotionally supported by your social circles because of your gender. That truly is unfair.
why? it is fair, it’s how it’s been for thousands if not millions of years. it’s just who we are.
That shit ain’t fair mate, don’t gaslight yourself
No it’s not. Biologically speaking there is no difference between male and female brains that justifies having half the human population’s emotional needs neglected. It’s all down to arbitrary social rules and barriers about male stoicism that do not apply to modern day society.
If you want to tough it out, feel free to, but only because you personally chose to do it. Not because “That’s how it has always been” or because you’ll be ridiculed by others. All men should be able to choose what emotions they show, when to show them, and how to show them without fearing ridicule.
so if i tell you for example that my life sucks and i’ve lost everything and fucked up every chance that i was given by some miraculous faith you would care like there’s not enough shit going on in your own life? we, men, are who we are because everyone got their own problems and their own shit going on in their own lives, so it’s just a waste of time, energy and sanity to care about other men’s wellbeing if you don’t have a real bond with them. if i start to care about every guy on the internet and care about their problems i will just kill myself eventually, and i don’t expect a different treatment to myself either. it is what it is.
I mean I would care as much as I can for an internet stranger.
I never said anything about caring about every man ever, but you don’t seem to realize that you don’t even care about the men in your life if you apply the same “Tough it out then kill yourself” attitude to them as you’re espousing right now.
And do you think women don’t have equally heavy issues going on in their lives? Do you think no woman out there has ever lost everything and fucked up every chance they get? But societally speaking it’s more acceptable to get help and talk about their fuck ups without judgement.
I’m clearly not going to change your mind, but like…I hope you can talk to someone about the stuff you’re dealing with, or at least give yourself some grace and forgiveness. Existence is really hard already.
I care and I sincerely hope that your life doesn’t suck. Also, I personally don’t find it to be a waste of time to care about anyone’s well being or problems, so if you need to unload anything, I’ll listen.
Men have it really hard. So hard, in fact, that people are increasingly turning towards the manosphere.
Rather than taking the terminally online Reddit mod approach of ostracizing MRA’s, incels, MGTOW, red pillers, etc, we should be asking ourselves why people increasingly turn to these movements.
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not a cause of our societal ills, and that is hugely concerning. A deeply misogynistic sex trafficker should not be the role model that today’s youth look up to.
Not trying to downtalk your overall point, but I’ve not really seen young guys talk about Tate. It’s mostly end 20s in my experience.
Definitely not the case here in England. My SIL works as a Science teacher and the amount of Andrew Tate stuff she’s seen pupils spreading around…
There’s. Ricky Gervais show called Derrick, every time I feel I need to just bawl my eyes out I binge that show, it hits you right in the emotions but in a way that makes you feel good.
I highly suggest anyone who feels like they’re nothing or can’t contribute to society or just anyone who enjoys a feel good mockumentary to give that show a burl
I agree people should support men more, but like this post being here, reddit, and tumblr is stupid. Here, reddit, and tumblr are the exact places creating hostile unfavorable environments where it’s ok to hate men. Almost all of the man-bashing and non-caring for my well-being I’ve ever experienced comes from sites like these, and the kind of people who use sites like these when it’s IRL stuff. It’s a problem of “the patriarchy” It’s a problem from YOU, yes exactly YOU reading and upvoting this post right now. If you are concerned about the well-being of men, stop actively being a problem towards the well-being of men.
Yeah I can’t even say you’re many suicide hotline dm’s I’ve got for having a different opinion than someone. Ha ha, so funny, this site and its ilk (reddit) do their best to inflame, pass judgement and exacerbate.
Reddit acknowledges and allows subreddits like r/TheRedPill and r/FemaleDatingStrategy, it is a sponsor of hate and controversy because it allows more profit through sensationalist engagement and data collection.
The second poster’s story so clearly shows why a man’s partner being their only emotional support is devastating to both people in the relationship, yet this idea is still so insidiously pervasive in our society. No one wins.
Need to bring back men only clubs.
That’s how most men bond. In a group.
still missing the point eh?
Got 2 similar situations here these days, very hard times for my cousin. Try to be there as much as I can & unconditionally, of course. Hope it helps a little bit. On the other side of the spectrum: my father is slowly dying and the male part of his (numerous) new family is completely oblivious about talking about it or doing something different than “supporting the emotional women”. That contrast is baffling. Guess what part lives out in the country and what part is more “city folks”…
As a military veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, this shit hits home. I’ve seen men break down and men who push it down until it is safe to let the feelings come out. Both are common, but for men you have to be able to keep the emotions in during a crisis situation. The men and women who are unable to do that pose risks of sudden suicide or uncontrollable behavior. Everyone has to let them out, that is extremely important.
A good friend of mine served in Afghanistan up until the very end. Never seemed to have any issues, was always cool and made the military seem like the most boring place on earth.
Flash forward to like a year ago and he’s got PTSD triggered by seeing his own kid and can’t sleep at night. No idea what happened, but yeah. It hits people.
“Men are victims of the patriarchy too” is an incredibly powerful message that I wish more men understood.
I think most of us understand how things are. The problem is the one’s whose opinions matter don’t give a fuck about changing anything because they’re at the top of the hierarchy. They benefit from treating the rest of us like shit.
It’s kind of a worthless statement really.
The ones at the top of the hierarchy aren’t the ones instilling these toxic ideals of masculinity in to young men. Parents and peers are perpetuating this on a personal level.
Because if you don’t adhere to these ideals you won’t be successful in life. You won’t get anywhere in your career. Women aren’t going to date you. You’ll be bullied and beaten down at every turn. Until something changes at the top these parents and peers are doing them a favor.
I’ve rejected these ideals my whole life. I was bullied as a kid but once I got out of school I found my people and never looked back. Never had a problem with women, the ones I dated found my emotional openness attractive. I’m successful in my professional life, tech lead at a financial software company.
I understand that different places have different degrees of pressures for this kind of thing, but what you’re saying is a lie. You’ve been programmed by the system to believe it and it is probably making you miserable. And if you have kids, it’ll make them miserable too. It doesn’t have to be that way. I feel bad for you.
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Media perpetuates these ideals but they didn’t originate with them. These ideals of masculinity have been around for hundreds of years before the modern media.
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You say yourself here, “the media influences gender norms… at least as much as”. Yeah, of course, it is a problem throughout all layers of society. Your earlier comment seemed to be saying that blame should be mostly with the 1%? I’m not sure what you are saying here.
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Agreed.
My husband has had virtually no emotional support from anyone, so much so that he doesn’t understand how to communicate any of his feelings.
“How do you feel?” “I don’t know” “Can I do something to help?” “I don’t know”
I definitely don’t ignore his mental health but his lack of communication drives me up the pole. Often I have to just walk away out of frustration. I wish I understood how to get through to him without it making me want to bash my own skull against the wall. I think a big part of it is that he doesn’t want to admit that he has any emotions at all
“How do you feel?” “I don’t know” “Can I do something to help?” “I don’t know”
Yeah. That’s real fun isn’t it? And I really don’t know. I’m luckier than most men, in that I have an understanding wife who doesn’t use my emotions against me.
Seems like you two chose each other well!
My husband is usually functional, but when things go wrong he crawls up inside himself and just doesn’t wanna come out. I deal with problems by facing them head-on, and he deals with them by pretending they don’t exist. Obviously that creates conflict (which then doesn’t help either of us. It’s extremely frustrating to know there is a problem but not know what that problem is)
He’s told me that he’ll go to therapy. I’m hoping that a third party will be able to help him unravel why he doesn’t know how he’s feeling, and how to communicate his needs
I am like that too. When I go over my limits, my tendency is to isolate myself.
I am better now, but I’ve been with a psychotherapist since 2020 and I am a lot better now at identifying my emotions and not isolate myself.
For me what worked was learning to identify my emotions. My first reaction to pretty much any negative emotion is anger and I don’t think that will change. However, I’ve learned to identify the emotion after the anger and then I speak it out. Sometimes, just a small statement to myself (" I acknowledge this emotion X") and sometimes, it leads to a long thinking about the situation that caused the emotion and how that made me feel.
So to help your other half, helping him identify the emotion after the anger would be the first step.
I concur, but after 3 years of me trying to help him identify what he’s feeling, a third party has to get involved. The problem is that I get frustrated and that doesn’t help anyone. He absolutely needs someone neutral to guide him. It can’t be me
I understand. And a therapist will have a multitude of tools to help him find the right one to start the journey.
I wish you the best and hope that your situation will get better soon.
Maybe this could help him? It’s from a peer counselor who deals a lot with these types of problems, usually with fairly nerdy guys, many of them on the spectrum.
Therapy and/or an ADHD diagnosis (not joking, one symptom of neuroatypical people is the inability to identify emotions in themselves (like me lol)).
I suspect autism with him. He’s an Engineer, so he has a lot of Braun power but I’ve had to teach him to greet me, say please and thank you, and introduce me to people I haven’t met. He literally left me in his friends doorway when we were dating. (It was a party and he opened the door, walked in and started hanging out with their 3year old while I stood there dumbfounded until I started introducing myself as his girlfriend. Yes, we broke up over it, but we figured it out and now we’re married)
Men understand it already. It’s the women who don’t.
I don’t find this to be true, in my experience. Most men I’ve discussed this with are very resistant to the idea.
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Calling it the patriarchy has very negative tone towards men, and basically blames men for the problem, In my experience, this issue isn’t created by men and saying it’s because of the patriarchy is just a form of victim-blaming. Even when trying to advocate for men feminism somehow manages to be sexist.
It’s true though. The patriarchy has perpetuated the idea that men are strong and stoic and women are weak and emotional, so it falls to men to be the leaders. The idea that men also need protection and understanding runs counter to the concept of patriarchy, hence why it hurts men as well as women.
Nah. It’s just an attempt to steer the conversation back to women’s issues. It’s just less on the nose than “…And that’s why you need feminismTM!”
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here? You don’t think that the masculinity that gets taught to men is a problem for their mental health?
I’m saying it has the same energy as one of those insufferable Christians popping their heads into every conversation at all and saying “And that’s why ya’ll need JesusTM.”
Someone starts blabbering about the “patriarchy” in a discussion about men’s issues, they’re not contributing to the discussion. They don’t genuinely care about the topic at hand. They’ve found an excuse to insert themselves into conversation.
I literally quoted from the Tumblr post about patriarchy. You sound way too online.
Yep “well if men weren’t such assholes they wouldn’t hold the few good apples down like this”
I might really misunderstand what patriarchy means in this context. But I’m using the definition “a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it”.
I don’t see how this is relevant to the “masculinity that gets taught to men”, as this idea is also perpetuated by women, so I don’t see how having a matriarchal or neutral society would fix this.
It seems to be more the result of the expectation that men need to be providers and protectors, which can be an expectation regardless of if the society is patriarchal or matriarchal or neither.
Sorry if I’m being ignorant. I’m just trying to understand better
To my mind the central mechanism for systemic control by the patriarchy is enforcement of gender roles. Men should be like this, women should be like that. Of course there will be ideas of masculinity in any society, patriarchal or not, but I think the aggressive enforcement of those roles and punishment for deviation from them is specifically an aspect of patriarchal systems.
On top of that, given the systematic exclusion of men from child rearing, re teaching elementary school, babysitting, or even parenting while male is all but criminalized in the Western world so nearly no men serve in those roles, I’m left to question who is responsible for “the masculinity that gets taught to men.”
I think unfortunately over the past 50 years the “masculinity that gets taught to men” comes from movies and TV shows.
Thanks for articulating that. I’ve always felt that the title for a phenomenon that oppresses people based on their gender shouldn’t be named for one of them. It doesn’t help anyone.
It’s all very much a class war that gets masqueraded as a sex/political war
Maybe it is just that I have had a long day, but please explain how the wealth devide is causing people to feel like they need to conform to toxic gender roles.
Rich people indoctrinate the poor masses
I think it’s sadly one of those things that people don’t understand until it happens to them. They’ll leave other men to their private hells and when it’s their turn they wonder why everyone has abandoned them like they did other men so many times before.
As a father who is very involved in my kids’ life, I feel this frequently. At the start of each school year I submit my contact info as the primary contact info and yet sometimes emails will circulate among the class moms anyway. Or I’ll get a text from another kid’s mom asking for my wife’s number so they can plan something.
When we started making friends with parents of my kid, all the moms in the group created a chat group which they still use to this day. The dads didn’t make one because that’s just not a thing you do, and I wasn’t invited to the moms group, even though I knew them at least as well as she did, and I am the extrovert and my wife is the introvert. So I frequently feel lonely and isolated (I also WFH) and my wife is socially overwhelmed.
Yes I could just buck the system and try to get the dads to have a group, or have my wife add me into the moms group, or similar things in other areas of life. But that’s the point: any time I do that I’ll be going against the grain.
I have struggled so hard with this. My child’s school cannot seem to understand that I, the father, am the one who primarily takes care of my daughter. My wife and I have started to flat out refuse to give the school my wife’s contact info, even as an “emergency contact”, just to make them communicate with me. I did manage to make a bunch of faculty at her old school mad when I asked, publicly, why they felt the need to discriminate against me when trying to contact patents, and this had the unintended effect of making a bunch of other fathers in the group pop up and ask the same question. Now my daughter is old enough that she, herself, will call them out on it. Having a ten year old lose her shit and tell the teacher that she needs to contact the right parent is really funny, almost as funny as when they insisted on contacting my wife instead of me, again, to complain that my kid had yelled at them for not contacting me.
Very similar. With our work schedules I end up spending more time with the kids than Mom does. My commute is much shorter and I can work from home a day or so a week. I feel like there is this whole network I am freezed out of.
I deal with this also except my ex abandoned us to move states away. She will still get notifications via email or text that she forwarded to me because they have her information on file. They have her information because I was forced to provide divorce paperwork showing I had custody of the kids to enroll them in school. Wonder how many moms get asked for paperwork proving custody when they try enrolling their kids in school. It’s reduced over the last three years but the first couple were ridiculous. Finally have a mom of one kid and dad of another kid that recognize I’m a parent to my children. Everything is stupid though. Every doctors apt, school visit, dentist apt, hell even trips to the store. Some BS content like “where’s mom” or “oh you’re filling in today”. I’m so sick of it. I cope by telling myself that at least it would be worse if the love of my life died horrifically instead of going bananas and abandoning us and I had to deal with this shit. At some point I’m worried I’ll snap at people but I never want to say anything negative about her around the kids.
I’m not even a parent and this shit pisses me off.
Men do understand it. We live through it every day. It’s the women who need to understand it. It’s the women who seem to think that men have great lives and everything is given to them. That’s not the case at all.
ehhhh. often it comes out as “I’m unhappy because of women”. it takes a special kind of introspection to really understand that you’re participating in and probably reinforcing the system that you’re suffering from.
incels are not representative of anyone
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Men might understand that they are unhappy, but I don’t think most men blame that on the cultural ideals of masculity that are pushed on them their whole lives. If most men do understand that, then why do they struggle so much to change? The common messaging in men’s mental health is usually around telling men that it is ok to have feelings, ok to talk about them, ok to cry and show emotions. If men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves) and the social pressures to conform, why is it so difficult to get those messages through to them?
And I mean, the fact that you feel the need throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system) seems like you’re not actually blaming the patriarchy?
men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves)
throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system)
You seem to conflate “men” and “patriarchy”.
Yup, I was trying to think of a way to say this succinctly, but you’ve done it. It’s sad that the majority of the thinking here is “y’all are doing this to yourselves”. I think I’ve basically given up trying to argue this point with people already. Seems like a lost cause, and not something that will change in my lifetime.
Yeah, the 99% of us have far more in common with each other than with the 1%. It’s oligarchy through plutocracy, not patriarchy.
Ideals of masculinity aren’t instilled in children by the 1%, they are perpetuated by parents and peers at a personal level.
“You’re gay if you don’t like football”, “you’re wasting your life if you don’t want to get married and have kids”, “you’ll never find a husband if you don’t wear makeup”, “you’re not a real man if you cry”. The patriarchy is sexist to everyone, and that’s why everyone should give a shit.
I hate this way of putting it, especially because it puts the blame on a single gender. It’s not JUST men who shoehorn people into gender roles, we all do it.
It’s off putting to me and I tend to dismiss the entire thing because it basically says that men being bad also hurts men. Had it said that men also are victims of gender roles I would immediately agree, and I can’t imagine that I’m the only one who feels this way.
That’s why it’s so important to specify that men are victims of patriarchy, not victims of men. Everyone, regardless of gender, has an environmental tendency to reinforce the societal structure that we label “Patriarchy”, as you say (and I/many agree), but there’s far more to it than the idea of “men first women second”. The idea behind the phrase is not “everyone vs. men” but rather “everyone vs. harmful but deeply engrained social construct”.
Then why use the label “Patriarchy”? It has a very specific meaning that I don’t feel applies to many western societies and definitely not to the sociatal structure and norms that we happen to live in, regardless of who is in charge. I think we agree on everything but the term.
Because it still puts men on top in most ways, even while it hurts them too.
And it definitely applies to all western societies.
You can see it in this very story. “Men are strong, they don’t need help. Women are weak and emotional, that’s why they need support.” Yeah, it’s devastating for men in this situation, but it’s the same logic which makes people say men are natural leaders or whatever.
Don’t forget that leadership is not a cakewalk either; it comes with responsibility and sacrifice. It is a burden as are most ‘advantages’ that men ‘enjoy’.
In a just world it would be, but the consequence of being labelled and perceived as a “natural leader” is that one can get away with shirking their responsibility, avoiding sacrifice, and abusing their position without much repercussion.
That’s fair enough. I guess it depends how you view leadership.
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The Patriarchs in question does not refer to all men. It specifically calls out the culture of the "elders"and those who have had ample opportunity to become established influences through the system. Those who subscribe to old fashioned beliefs and those at the top of the power structures that benefit from their compliance from younger, poorer generations. Emotionally distant men and limiting variability within the group makes the entire demographic more easily exploitable. A lot of roles in the family and society exist for men outside the title of “patriarch” but patriarchs specifically use their role to self legitimize their power over other people and make everyone in some way subservient.
It’s kind of a shorthand for “old fashioned” conservative systems of organization that prime men to be “leaders in embryo”. The gendered component is still valid because it is still a dominant model that is marbled with minor subversions of it. Women and non-standard men may have changed their place in the family but even when they reach the top they have to make themselves non-threatening to the cohort of established powers and play by their rules to succeed.
because those gender roles are largely decided by men
Most feminists don’t even acknowledge this. Or they say even if men are victims, they deserve it for participating in the patriarchy.
As a staunch feminist whose friends are all feminists, I have never heard a single one say—or even imply—anything like that. I very much know how extremely painful it is to have your feelings ignored and invalidated, so garbage like that is a dealbreaker.
If you’re hearing this claim from people irl, they’re saying it because they’re shitty people… not because they call themselves “feminists”.
Whereas plenty of guys have. I’d like to consider myself a feminist, but in my experience, I’m not welcome to the label, since it seems that progressive women are less compassionate than “nonpolitical” ones when it comes to relating to the issues of men. It’s obviously not some issue with feminism, but we don’t get to have popular movements and also ignore their ills. The vast majority of educated feminists agree with you. The vast majority of people in the streets calling themselves feminist seem entirely in it for themselves, and it’s really tiresome when well-meaning feminists who aren’t just exercising their trauma, the people that men like these most-need to have honest conversations with, insist that men don’t know what happens to them.
Apparently, there are no misandrists, according to online discourse. Should I tell my memories they’re wrong, that I should have just been more open-minded as a young child when more than one teacher preached that men are evil and stupid, and deserve subjugation? Or maybe, just like how misogynists are good at covering it up around their friends, so are the handful of misandrists who do exist?
Wrong, this is something almost universally acknowledged in feminist circles.
When I found out the patriarchy wasn’t about horses, I lost interest.
It’s like when you talk to a small business owner. They’ll talk about how the banks and big companies screw them left and right, but they’ll also tell you that they think they’ll end up Bill Gates. Same delusion
Heads up, the message you’re replying to was a joke from the Barbie movie.
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Friends?
My best friend of 15 years told me, when I had a rough patch, that he’s there for me just reach out but unless I initiate he would treat any interaction as just a normal day.
Throughout the rough patch I choose not to speak of it and just treated our hang outs as a chance to get away. He choose to support me in the only way he knew how and the only way he was comfortable with. I was not comfortable and didn’t know how to ask for more support. It’s about 7 years from then and my parents still don’t know, I just don’t know how to ask for and engage with emotional support. I am completely weirded out by the concept of talking about my emotions and somebody else caring, it gives me a high level of anxiety.
TLDR: small male friend groups with limited experience providing or receiving emotional support are unlikely to provide explicit emotional support and there’s a good chance if you’re a man who needs it you don’t know how to ask
It’s 100% natural to not want to bring up personal/emotional shit as a guy, it’s hardcoded into our DNA it seems.
I for one, don’t because when I do get a rare chance to hang with the guys I’m not going to Buzzkill it, and neither do they like it’s an unspoken man code. Our therapy is not talking it out like women do. Our therapy IS the hanging out/activities we do with our friends.
dude its because you guys were never taught how to express your emotion in a healthy and productive way. you probably don’t even know where to start to express grief, just “I don’t know” and “yeah I’m fine”.
I wasn’t. I’m working on it. How do I do that?
I would say start small, reach out to a trusted friend. and say that you would like to connect with people more genuinely. ask them about their days and take an actual interest in their wellness. ask them if they mind you sharing with them your feelings.
however, you might not have someone like that and making friends as adults is difficult so therapy is another method. make it clear that you’re there to learn to express your emotions in a healthy way. and let the therapist guide you through them.
this process is not the easiest, you would need to learn to be vulnerable. and unlearn behaviors and tactics that you’ve grown accustomed to. but there is strength in acknowledging weaknesses. and I wish you the best.
Man… You couldn’t be more wrong and all you’re doing is perpetuating the problem.
Yesterday I had a comment from a woman friend along the line of “my daughter says you’re always serious but nice. You should work on that”. She didn’t think of asking me why I am always serious…
Wtf does that even mean?
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Honestly it would be the easiest solution lol
I’ve got two trans guy friends and I often check in with them on my discord server to make sure they’re doing okay. Unfortunately we have one person who is the total opposite of the rest of us. I mean the “the trans idea is pushed by big medicine” type. Other than their views, they get along well in the server and i accommodate everyone there. If one of the two trans guys wish for the other person to be blocked from their channel, I do that, so they have a place they can talk without being looked down upon.
I just watched Netflix anime ‘Blue Eye Samurai.’ Highly recommended. There’s a scene where a princess is talking to the madam of a notorious bordello that specializes in the unusual. The madam goes on and on about how weak and fragile men are, how they need their egos massaged and need to feel supported.
After reading the post, I realized that this is a pretty common trope in fiction; sex workers talking about how most of their clients are only there because they need something that their jobs/families/communities deny them.
Just a thought.
Even in Japanese love hotels, I’ve heard it’s common for men to book someone and just…cuddle for a while. Fall asleep being held. I don’t have to live it to believe it.
It’s not just a thing in fiction either; I’ve seen plenty of threads and discussions over the years where real-life sex workers have essentially been saying the same thing. A lot of men are lonely.
That’s what’s amazing to me. Everyone knows about it, but it’s treated like a big secret.
Women don’t care about men. “It’s the men that are in the wrong”
Had me until the last point. Maybe women need to change their behaviours? Maybe they are responsible for themselves and not controlled by men 24/7?
The belief that toxic masculinity is harmful to men as much as women is not incompatible with recognizing that women still deal with systemic misogyny. In fact, they’re two sides of the same coin, the outdated perception that men must always be strong and stoic to protect the weak and emotional women.
Did I say anything to disagree with you?
What I am talking about is women not making a change that they are responsible for and instead avoiding responsibility and blaming it on men.
Maybe they already know that. Not to mention, self destructive views of masculinity, perpetuated primarily by MEN, is obviously the fault of women.
Besides, any woman who dared act like you need their help would almost certainly earn nothing but your scorn.
Take your foolish hot take and go home. Adults are talking.
Maybe you should actually talk to men rather than talking for them.
You’re not all knowing.
Even in that post the two men both said they got support from men but not women.
Time and time again you can look up question on the Internet like “Men why don’t you open up to women?” “Why don’t you cry in front of your girlfriend?” Etc etc. Its always full on men saying “I did that is was a huge mistake, I learnt my lesson.” Then they say women either lost respect for them and dumped them immediately or as soon as an argument happened they used their insecurities against them.
What women don’t seem to understand is guys can call each other cocksuckers but also be there for them when they need it. Girls don’t call their guy friends names but importantly they aren’t there for them.
Maybe you could use this as a learning exercise? I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
Have you considered that your experiences in macho environments with guys could be primarily due to your appearance and demeanor? And that your experiences with women being unapproachable could be due to that same appearance and demeanor, as well as the institutionalized power dynamics and physical inequalities between men and women?
I’m not saying that it’s easy to connect on a deep emotional level with platonic female friends (or romantic partners) as a man. I’m just saying that it’s not necessarily because women are intentionally excluding you; like someone elsewhere in the thread said, many men have been victimized of the patriarchy, too.
Maybe I should give more context. I have been in macho environments but not exclusively. I’m saying a typical macho environments that some women think is horrific and uncaring, is actually more caring and better for mental health of a man than any female relationship outside of a close intimate one.
I’m an guy with a bang in the middle BMI. But I have played rugby a lot and I have done things like camping, fighting, roughhousing, drinking. I’m a typical man’s, man not an extreme example just an average one. I grew up with females friends, had female friends in school, uni and post. Lived with girls. Best friend in work was a girl. Old friendship group from my hometown is 50:50 guys:girls
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men. Whenever you voice your insecurities to them it’s a mistake. The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter (outside of relationships or your mum)
The additional context is helpful, and I’m not trying to minimize your experiences. I’m just saying that an average guy who’s played rugby and is a “typical man’s man” can be inherently and unintentionally threatening to women, even if you personally have a friendly relationship with those women. Now some of this is likely cultural and country specific. I’m guessing from your reply times and mentioning rugby, uni, and camping that you’re from Aus (or at least not the US). Most of my background is in the western US, so I understand that in your situation, things are probably totally different than my experiences. However, I have also spent lots of time in mixed friend groups, in traditional male-dominated areas (including rugby teams, interestingly), in very conservative spaces (as a very liberal person), and my experiences have been markedly different than yours.
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
The issue isn’t necessarily you. Women have been trained through long and often traumatic personal histories that men, especially traditionally masculine men, are dangerous. Add to that the fact that when you start to open up about emotional issues, your behavior starts to deviate from “normal” guy behavior. Not a problem, except that now you’re an average guy (which usually means significantly larger and stronger than an average woman) who is behaving in unexpected ways, which means you’re unpredictable from the point of view of a woman.
None of her perception or fear is your fault, but it is literally a dangerous situation from the woman’s point of view.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men.
I don’t necessarily disagree; I’m just trying to get you to think about whether that’s because women don’t care or because in nearly every culture, women need to be exceptionally cautious around men, especially men in emotional distress that might behave unpredictably. Even if they know you really well under normal circumstances, when you start to deviate from “normal” behavior, women need to be on their guard.
The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter
And that’s where you lose me. Yes, “masculine environments” can be a great place to open up and get emotional support, but they can also reinforce harmful habits and act as an echo chamber (much like male-dominated internet discourse). I’m not saying that you should replace your male friends with female friends, or that you should stop talking to your male friends. I’m just saying that women can also provide that support in many circumstances (in my experience).
If you’re consistently having bad experiences when you talk about emotional issues with women, then it may be the way you present the issues, the group dynamics, or the specific women that you choose to open up to. To say point blank that “The worst, most ‘toxic masculinity’ environments are better than the best women encounter” is where I disagree.
I’m saying women being horrible and hurtful to men is something they need to work on. Using men as an excuse for why women can be horrible is unacceptable.
Let me ask you a question. Are all the stereotypical incels right how they treat women because some women have treated some man bad? No. So why are you saying the inverse is acceptable? That’s the only point I’m making. Women need to do a lot better with handling themselves. That’s not mens fault. Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
For thr record. I’m Welsh and I was in Aus for a time but now I’m in NZ. Coincidently I seen two guys get dumped, one from each country. One happened just after dad died. Other happened when he went home to his nans funeral over the phone.
Rugby is integral to all three of those cultures and women are regularly involved. All blacks are everywhere and are a cultural icon on every from of adverstimement. You’re mistaking how men only that is.
Lol. Yeah, maybe start by being open with women? Like it or not, conforming to what you think a woman expects is you being dishonest; when you only later open up, your own actions contradict the expectation that you previously set.
And, no, the entire Internet is not filled with this incel crap. Maybe the corners you frequent? Who knows.
Perpetuating the failures of our broken patriarchal system does not, in fact, justify it’s existence. Furthermore, starting with this misogynistic crap is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy. But you know what? You do you. At least the chances of you passing this ignorant hatred to your kids will be practically non-existent…
Oh, and uh, no, i have no reason to “learn” misogyny; I happen to be blessed with an amazing relationship specifically because I do NOT subscribe to this useless crap.
In short, you’re wrong, and always will be. Feel free to whine about it, I don’t care. I’m done with this discussion.
I’m open enough with women.
But you got to be realistic. Generally women are sexist, they do like things certain ways, they do expect ideals.
Surprise surprise women aren’t as perfect as you think. Not all problems in the world are due to men.
Women can do a lot better and they should. Rather than just passing the blame they should improve on their own sexist views.
I don’t know why women treating men like shit is mens fault. It happens from childhood too, are you going to say a 5 year old boy is responsiblefor being mistreated by an adult woman? Belive it or not women are responsible for their actions
Didn’t say they were perfect, and didn’t say their actions are your fault. I did say YOUR actions are yours, and yours alone.
And, dude…that’s the only thing you can control. Frankly, whether you are right or wrong in the views you’ve stated is irrelevant. All you’re gonna accomplish is twisting yourself up inside over things you cannot change.
Most importantly, if you use other people’s choices as an excuse to be a shit person, that just guarantees a pattern of lose-lose scenarios in your life. If you’re trying to be miserable, then go for it. But if not, well, you can only control yourself; all other “power” is an illusion.
Another way to put it: the only problems that matter are the ones that are yours. Other people’s problems or choices are just a distraction; that shit ain’t gonna take you anywhere. At least not anywhere you want to be. If you’re not satisfied with something in life, that’s on you to figure out. Blame is useless - it’s not a solution, it’s a trap.
I agree the only problems are your own.
Sometimes it is nice to have help with your problems though. If you are a man and want help with your problems your only choice is to confide in another man.
Women do not want to help men but they expect help from them.
That doesn’t make me miserable that’s just accepting the world the way it is and it’s a life lesson men tend to learn the hard way. That does that mean you should be a shit person at all, it doesn’t mean you should be miserable. All it is is reality that women will expect you to help with their problems but they will not help with yours. Its a harsh truth and life is better once you see it.
Uh, sure buddy. My partner is apparently imaginary, given that women who want to help men don’t exist.
Anyway, choosing to harbor a prejudice against literally half of the human race does, in fact, make you a shit person.
Are you serious? Look at women throughout history, bud. They’ve gotten a raw deal a good portion of the time and many of their toxic traits come from emulating the treatment they’ve received from awful men.
People always seem shocked when I’m offended by terms like “I hate men”.
Like it’s somehow wrong of me to be offended by blatant misandry because I should just “know what they mean”. I’m one of “the good ones, they don’t mean me when they say it”. Horseshit.
The blatant misandry that some people carry around like a badge of honor is kinda horrifying, if I’m being honest. It’s almost like they don’t even realize that what they’re doing and how they feel about billions of people is inherently wrong.
