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I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
I agree with them but not for the reasons they would like, less pushing of EVs more pushing of good public transportation.
Car dealers are useless middlemen that should be put out of business.
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Sure they can. Just give the $7500 credit to an EV worth its price.
I would like to buy an electric car but I will not because;
- I don’t have a garage.
- I live in a very wintery climate and don’t trust the battery to take it/don’t want to heat a battery
- The closest chargers are at least 50 km away in other towns
- My house has 60 amp service (upgrading that is on the todo list, but it’s a long list)
- I don’t trust the battery to last longer than the life of the lease
car dealers bring as much value to society as landlords. it’s a negative value.
Translation: Car dealers don’t make as much money from EV’s.
Car sales is a racket anyway, the dealers make too much money, the car manufacturers make too much money, and with the prospect of a new technology that costs more they’ve realised that they can’t charge as much more, meaning they profit less.
Price is not proportional to cost.
The biggest crime is the villainisation of haggling. Price must be negotiable for a system to remain fair.
Car sales is a racket anyway
Correction
Cars are a racket anyway
EV cars are better than ICE cars, but the biggest problems with cars are so much bigger than the type of engine they use. As grateful as I am for EV cars being a thing sometimes they just feel like a distraction from solving the actual fundamental issues around transportation.
Yeah, hate haggling. Never know if it is actually a good deal, and tracking prices and deals is so unreliable compared other goods with the way those have historic price tracking recorded on sites like camelcamelcamel or keepa. Keeps consumers in the dark with only a broad idea of what isn’t a scam price and making the experience as exhausting as possible to extract money from them.
If it’s cheaper than the list price, it’s at least a better deal.
I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I’d argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.
The infrastructure isn’t there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they’re really expensive is actually secondary considering they’re just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
This isn’t an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you’re in an appartment with dedicated parking, it’s not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren’t demanding it the building isn’t going to supply it.
If you’re stuck with street parking, you’re right, your use case isn’t best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn’t a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn’t seem like justification to stop rollout.
I’d be curious to see real stats about how many folks in the US have a car and any practical access to a charger, even if somehow we convinced landlords everywhere to install chargers or the govt footed that bill entirely. I suspect it isn’t the minority you think given the current housing situation in the country.
Even so, we seem agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement would be needed to make this at all practical. It looks a lot like pie in the sky to me.
Of course the elephant in the room is that the battery technology is the more overarching issue. I don’t need a gas station in my parking lot because it takes me about 3 minutes to fill the car with gas. If it took 3 minutes to charge an electric car, they would be closer to parity. Currently they are far, far away.
Is it possible to get around some of that issue by changing tactics / planning ahead for longer trips and trying to secure a full charge by then? Possibly, but not practically. I’d also argue that technologies that ask people to change established behavior without benefit tend to fail (and there is no direct benefit to the consumer with an electric car).
I’m not sure I agree there is a massive infrastructure need. The average American could keep their EV charged today with a standard 120v outlet.
I don’t have numbers for how any car owners park their car overnight somewhere that has access to a 120v plug, but it would surprise me if it was less than 50%.
Batteries are fine today and I lay getting better, fast charging is nice to have, but definitely not needed.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It’s an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They’re much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
Ty for education
And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
Oh I don’t doubt there is a lot of dirty pool involved. Tesla’s hands are nowhere near clean either. But it doesn’t change the fact that, at the end of the day, shit’s not anywhere near ready.
You don’t need to have chargers on site. You just need charging locations that are fast enough. Teslas already charge from empty to almost full in about 15 mins.
It’s 0 to 200 miles in 15 minutes in ideal conditions. Really good, but no reason to set unreasonable expectations.
In my experience, it’s closer to 45 minutes to go from 15-20% to 90% in my Model 3. The supercharger’s fastest charge is when the battery is less than half full. After that, it slows down to protect the life of the battery pack. If all you need is enough charge to get home to your own charger, it’s entirely possible that you can be in and out in 10-15 minutes.
65.8% of Americans own their house. EV sales rates aren’t anywhere near that. Lack of being able to charge at home is not the primary issue.
I’d be curious to see how many apartment dwellers are buying brand new vehicles as well. I suspect it’s at a rate lower than home owners.
While your larger point is valid, it’s missing some important context. I haven’t seen the data, but I suspect that it says 65% own (vs renting) their primary residence, not that 65% own a single family house suitable for home charging. This figure would include houses with street parking only, off-street parking unsuitable for charging (e.g. carport, or a detached garage without electricity), and critically, condos. Condos often have the exact same restrictions as apartments, even if you own the living space. In the opposite direction, it doesn’t count the rented homes where you could charge.
Now, all of that being said, you are correct that it’s not the only (or perhaps even the biggest) obstacle to moving entirely to EVs. Countless gas vehicles are sold daily to people that could absolutely charge at home. But it does freeze out a large market segment, whom I suspect are more interested in EVs in the first place.
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
I think this is ignoring the fact that the average americans daily milage is so little (around 30 miles)that an electric car can be topped up off a Level 1 charger. Even more if you can get a level 2 charger.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
I replaced 90% of my driving with an electric golf cart
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
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an extension cord.
This is just not a practical day-to-day solution. Most people don’t have a parking spot right outside their window that they can reliably use for charging. There is often a sidewalk that the cord would have to cross, creating the opportunity for someone to trip and sue you. There is often landscaping between buildings and parking, creating the opportunity for the landscapers to accidentally run over your cord with their lawnmower. Some asshole is going to walk by and unplug your car and then you may be late to work.
Sure, you could it, but it’s not a practical solution.
I mean, sure, when you dont want to do it, its easy to really cook up a convuluted scenario to justify not doing it.
I’m going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Oh god, the horror of 6 cords. You’re right, the world cant support such madness.
if you don’t like EVs, thats fine. Don’t gotta keep playing this game of “UNLESS ITS 1000% PERFECT, WE CANT HAVE IT”.
Level 1 charging works off of a regular power outlet
And if you only have street parking?
Is there a power outlet in the street? If not, it would be hard to use level 1 charging and wouldn’t really be relevant to bring up, would it?
Let me summarize the stream of these comments for you, as if it was a conversation between two people.
A)There isn’t infrastructure for electric cars, particularly for those living in an apartment.
B)Level 1 charging is good enough for most people.
A)How is a person who lives in an apartment going to use a level 1 charger?
B)You just use a regular outlet.
A)But I live in an apartment, there is no regular outlet near my car.
B)(this is your comment BTW)Well then why did you bring up level 1 charging?
You’re a moron.
Some apartments have outlets in them, this is a simple solution for those people. Not every solution will solve every problem for every person. Only a moron would expect that.
It’s kind of disturbing that they can’t follow this.
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there’s no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It’s sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can’t afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that’s not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it’s below freezing? Because that’s a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
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Electric bikes suck in the Wisconsin winter
I hear that biking in the snow isn’t actually bad. This is hearsay because it doesn’t snow much where I am.
You wear your winter coat and snow pants, and get studded tires.
You don’t have to worry about getting stuck going up an icy hill (because if its too icy to drive up, you can walk up it), granted not likely to be a problem in Wisconsin.
You don’t have to worry about getting stuck due to low clearance (like the snow between the ruts that hatchbacks and minivans get stuck on) because you can just pick up your bike.
Also if a pedestrian slips while crossing the road, you probably won’t kill them if you can’t stop in time.
I guess the wind could be intense. What’s your experience been?
Consider doing any of this in -20F even without the wind chill. Now consider the battery on that bike in those temps.
I’ve had it be so cold outside that the door lock latch on my entryway door for my garage was growing ice crystals. This isn’t a door that’s on the outside. This is the door on the entry from the garage to the house.
Now imagine trying to bike anywhere with that and what is essentially a salt/beet sugar slurry in the roads with no one giving you right of way it even being able to see in front of them because they’re either drunk, on the phone, only cleared a 3" hole in their windshield or “you just came out of nowhere” ;)
But hey, the summers here are kickass
Hey thanks for more context I appreciate it.
-20F (-30C) is quite cold. How often is it that cold during commuting hours? It’s hard to read too much into anecdotes re house latches freezing because there are so many peculiarities of individual houses. Range will definitely be reduced though.
I could see the ice melt slurry being messy and gumming up the bike’s mechanics for sure. Not something I have experience with.
Yeah separate infrastructure makes biking a lot safer and so more attractive.
It’s actually not as bad on average as I conveyed
https://weatherspark.com/countries/US/WI
I think a lot of it is wind chills, especially where I am since Madison, WI sits between two lakes.
It might be better on a regular fat tire bike and not EV here, though in the last few years EV has become insanely popular around here.
You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there’s a strong chance you can’t safely unfortunately
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
Spoiler alert: cars have always sucked.
Inefficient drain of public and private money. Demand better public transportation.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
I wanted to like the Tacoma but I owned a Corolla and it’s the same size inside. Not like in a “this is a truck” way either I mean the cabin is like a compact car. Seating position is just awful. I’m tall but this isn’t a tall thing even.
Thing about the Corolla is it had 41” legroom in front at least. More backseat room too.
There was another thread here on Lemmy where I talked about how my parents installed a wired intercom in our house so they wouldn’t have to yell at me when they wanted something and someone replied that they just use Alexa to do that and I wanted to hit my forehead on my keyboard.
Wow angling to pass lawyers as the most reviled profession in the country huh?
I would have bought a plug in electric, but my apartment didn’t like the idea of me throwing extension cords out my second story window.
When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable “security” etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn’t that I didn’t want one, it’s that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn’t budge. Fuck off.
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