Haha don’t forget moderates.
“We should listen to both sides, I mean nazis and fascists had good ideas too!”
When you put it like that, I gotta wonder if you’re not just putting the spin on it.
HEY EVERYONE, I’M PERFECT AND MY NEIGHBOR IS EVIL! KILL THEM TO DEATH!
So what exactly does the right want in your eyes and what exactly does the other side want
Why do you think I’m gonna sit here and describe labels when my whole point is to throw the labels out so we can address issues individually and get rid of the two party system that’s monopolized by the rich?
the rich?
Tsk tsk, you and your labels. /s
I’m not taking about labels. What is the actual fucking policy of the two major political parties!
I don’t think people usually even know that past the poster subjects.
Sometimes a neighbour really is evil.
My downstairs neighbors are actually my roommate’s mom and a mentally handicapped dude who are both raging crazy assholes, but that’s not my point, and I don’t wish them any harm.
You have to consider both sides when he’s dragging bodies out of his house in black garbage bags every weekend.
Ah yeah, but that’s not Democrats or Republicans. That’s specific people. The labels exist to confuse the situation and you’re all playing into their hand.
“The labels exist to confuse the situation”
Gee, I wonder why people the people who all loudly proclaim they’re on the same side as the literal fascists all end up as literal fascists?
I guess we’ll never know. These labels are just too confusing!
If i may interject : do you really not see a difference between the republican party and our archetype of nazis ?
Should they be banned then ?If i may interject : do you really not see a difference between the republican party and our archetype of nazis ?
Should they be banned then ?I didn’t realize Nazis were banned in the US. Care to offer me some legislation on the matter?
You’re right at first sight, i didn’t know that, interesting considering that eastern Europe banned communist symbols and political parties :
However i’m wondering if you know the republican point of view, representing half of the voting population after all. They’re apparently saying that they’re against poverty, but somehow believe that giving more money to the wealthy is the correct way, that they’re not racist, but are mixing the consequences of being poor with the social determinism of our system(, or that we’re being replaced in France), they’re equating socialism with authoritarianism, saying that we don’t know economy, and that crime should be fought with more “authority”, and many more things, they’re just mistaken and nobody deserves (y)our hate, everyone makes mistakes, i think it was the point of view of @Mango and it’s also mine. I, for one, regretted their absence from reddit and also on Lemmy, it’s not by excluding them that things will improve i.m.o.
You’re believing that fascism is on the rise but we’re no better than the fascists banning the socialists/communists if we’re banning fascists instead of accepting&debating with them. Things are indeed getting worse, i agree with you on this(, and @Mango as well probably), more censorship isn’t the answer i.m.o.
You are literally doing the thing. I have Republican friends who are perfectly decent people. It’s a clump of political stances, not fascism or religion nonsense. That said, most people don’t even know all of what’s bundled in with their party. Nobody has time for that. Ditch the labels.
You cannot be a Republican in 2023 and be a decent person. To be a Republican in 2023 means you accept sitting down at the table with those who tried to overthrow the election with violence. That’s not even touching the party’s policies that do harm to queers and other minorities, or inaction on climate change, or what have you. It is a thoroughly rotten party, and membership in 2023 is as damning as certain armbands would have been in the 30s.
Secondly, if you “ditched the labels” people would immediately reinvent them. People aren’t going to enumerate their belief set in full every time. They’ll find groups of like minded people and give it a name. The labels exist because they are useful, not as a comic force imposed on people.
I have Republican friends who are perfectly decent people.
What, do you think every Nazi was a frothing at the mouth psychopath? “These are GOOD Republicans, they just vote for the oppression of minorities because they like lower taxes”, okay, they’re still fucking fascists and terrible citizens.
It’s a clump of political stances, not fascism
What the ever-loving fuck do you think fascism is.
That said, most people don’t even know all of what’s bundled in with their party. Nobody has time for that.
“Most people don’t know what they’re voting for”
If that’s true, and I doubt that it is, that would mean millions are voting for fascism because they can’t be arsed to ensure that their participation in the civic process isn’t oriented towards the oppression and murder of their fellow citizens.
Not sure how much more sympathetic that’s really meant to make me towards them.
Yeah, and don’t you think they would vote better if people used actual taking points instead of labels?
“Akshually, I don’t think you’re giving the fascists a fair shake. You have to understand they have Very Good Reasons for hating minorities and pursuing policies that benefit no one but their ultrawealthy donors-”
Fuck off.
You’re agreeing with me then? You just think you’re not because you can’t see your own side?
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and people like OP think everyone fits neatly into either group.
I mean who doesnt want the country you live in to provide education and healthcare, other than nazis and fascist? Whats the middle ground you refer too?
No, no, you see, the Republicans who worship a cult of action and engage in strident anti-intellectualism and encourage violence against minorities are definitely not fascist, they’re just Economically Anxious or whatever the fuck the in-vogue term is.
Pulling up the ladder so nobody else can climb up.
The
new20 year effort of the American conservative.movement.
because there are more than those two issues. but go ahead and feel the moral high ground you’re seeking.
But aren’t those two issues true? And aren’t they extremely important?
Thing is, in the current US system you can be either: Republican, Democrat, or letting other people pick your poison for you. So the first one is people who don’t want education and healthcare, the third is people who don’t care, and the second is everyone else.
Obviously people don’t fit neatly into two camps, but the US right camp has trenched itself in so deep that it’s baffling it has more than 10% of voters.
But aren’t those two issues true? And aren’t they extremely important?
I never said they weren’t. And you’re still wrong. There’s a such thing as nuance, but you’re missing the point, so I’m just going to leave it here. Have a great black or white life.
In what am I wrong? Aren’t US elections basically asking you to choose between a party that wants to cut healthcare and education and one that doesn’t, with no other options in between?
Nazi say what
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This thread is fucked. Lemmy is worse than reddit when it comes to the “if you don’t agree with me 100% then you’re a fucking nazi fascist”
I made a comment about not buying into this hyperbolic strawman shit slinging and most of the replies are “so what do you believe” or “what do you think conservatives believe” and trying to say I’m “not arguing” with them so my words are invalid.
I just don’t think this ITS ACTUALLY FUCKING SALVERY THEYRE ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS is doing anything but making us look like turds
Don’t forget women can’t vote and can’t own property apparently too. Where the hell did that even come from?
You can’t support the right without supporting their fascism, regardless of how you try to qualify it
This is the same argument that led to the red scare in the 50s. Want to unionize your workplace? That’s not the only union you want! Want to bring an anti consumerism message? Literally communism! It’s much easier to group undesirables together so you can marginalize the libertarians, evangelicals and business class in one fell swoop by labeling them Fascist
It’s not really the same argument at all.
You’re 100% right. You’ll still get downvoted and so will I for saying this, because people vote with their emotions here.
I don’t think downvotes should be a thing at all tbh. Just silences discussion.
If a comment is actively hateful and/or breaks rules you’d report it instead, as is the case in alot of Lemmy instances.
How is anyone on Lemmy silenced by downvotes? Just basic feelings of shame because some people on the internet didn’t like what they said?
People have a tendency to pile on and dismiss any opinion or comment with -1 votes or less instead of properly responding to it, like what’s happening just above this comment. Turns the place into an echo chamber.
How does it turn the place into an echo chamber? Why would anyone let that silence them? There are zero repercussions for a downvote on Lemmy.
Is your ego really so fragile that “people don’t like my comment” is enough to make you stop talking?
It’s useful for gauging the general opinion on a subject, or for “exposing” fake affirmations without having to dig comments.
It does bring its issues, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Plus it’s not like Reddit where you just have the balance, people indeed have the tendency to ignore/comment snarkily on “-5” comments, but if they see a “+10/-15” they often realize it’s a controversial opinion and might weigh in.
right? if you say something the lef… i mean lemmy users don’t like, you just get SHOUTED down instead. cause if you screetch loud enough it makes it true.
90 million people or whatever they claimed the outrageous number was voted with their emotions in 2020.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone from the right say they support fascism. However, I’ve heard plenty on the left say they support communism. Also, the right has plenty of problems to draw upon without acting like the crazy fringe is the norm. This twitter post is insane and really not a convincing argument.
Go ahead and downvote because you don’t like hearing it all you want, but you know it’s true.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone from the right say they support fascism. However, I’ve heard plenty on the left say they support communism
Cool whataboutism, but the two aren’t remotely comparable. Fascism is an ideology of violence. Communism, as described by Marx, is an ideology of common ownership, lack of social classes, and the obsoletion of currency.
Both sides are not the same.
Communism ≠ Fascism. I’m terribly sorry that every single “Communist State” literally couldn’t be a communist state any more than The Congo and North Korea are Democratic Republics. Just because someone calls themselves something doesn’t make them a member of that ideology.
Communism at it’s core requires a dissolution of both The State (The federal government,) and an abolition of currency. The closest you’ll find to any society like this would be the aboriginal societies in Siberia, Australia, North and South America, and Africa.
No so called “Communist” country has been anything more than a right wing authoritarian dictatorship which is about as far from communism as you could possibly get.
Before you propagandized capitalists come at me,: “Democracy doesn’t work because The People’s Democratic Republic of The Congo, and The Democratic Republic of North Korea are nothing but authoritarian fascist dictatorships, so all attempts at democracy, much like The US under Wilson, Trump, Harding and Coolidge, will automatically fall into authoritarian fascist regimes.”
reigndeer
They don’t have to say it.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone from the right say they support fascism
I have.
Can you show me?
The people I’ve met in real life? That would be a little tricky. But I’ve met actual open fascists.
And there’s also people who support fascist policy, but don’t say fascism; they are still supporters of fascism.
Nah its patently false. Christian nationalism is business as usual on the right now and thats just American fascism.
America first? Fascism. MAGA is the same, look at Trumps veterans day speech
The tiki torch “Jews will not replace us” crowd was very fine people on both sides according to him.
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., declared in an interview that “We need to be the party of nationalism and I’m a Christian, and I say it proudly, we should be Christian nationalists.”
There’s Rep. Lauren Boebert, who floated the idea of mandatory “biblical citizenship training,” who has said “the church is supposed to direct the government” and that she’s “tired of this separation of church and state junk.”
They legislate against civil liberties then call anyone who opposes their attacks ‘groomers’
Return to tradition. Reject modernism. Elevate irrationalism (denial of science). Disagreement is treason (or ‘grooming’, the new way of saying indoctrination, but a blanket condemnation of indoctrination is self incriminating for Christian nationalists). Demagougery, exploit fear of difference, tear down diversity. Attacks on immigrants to elevate ‘patriots’ (read white nationalists). Veneration of authoritarian leaders. Hyperfixation on chauvinism (Proudboys) conquest and war iconography. Selective populism, double speak where moms for liberty means book burning and parental rights means don’t challenge my bigotry by teaching acceptance. Goes on and on.
They wont outright say fascism is good right away. It dogwhistles and doublespeak until they hold enough power.
That’s not what he said…
Oh yes you “can!” Just you try voting third party (i.e not actually supporting the republicans) and telling anyone about it, dems will say you supported the right, reps will say you supported the left, all the while you supported neither, and somehow simultaneously supported both from the POV of the “you have to do what I want” people.
Edit: See?
Voting 3rd party is only a worthwhile attempt if you were planning on voting Republican. If you are even slightly leaning towards voting Democrat, then removing that possible vote for Democrats would only empower the Republicans.
So only vote third party if it helps the Democrats? That’s what you’re saying?
I’m not the other guy but that does seem like the optimal strategy
Haha, okay.
It’s mathematically impossible for a third party to win because they split the vote with whichever of the major parties they are most like. Since this is so you are in effect voting for whomever they are most unalike. EG greens are voting for Republicans Libertarians might as well be voting for Democrats.
You would do better to stand better folks in the primary of the party that is closest to the third party or move for something like approval voting that would make it possible to vote for them in good conscience instead of pretending like you don’t know how our electoral system works.
dems will say you supported the right, reps will say you supported the left, all the while you supported neither
The fundamental core of the GOP strategy is to disenfranchise voters. When you vote for a hopeless third-party candidate you are disenfranchising yourself - i.e. doing the GOP’s work for them.
Aren’t people tired of voting for a party because they dislike the other one though? You’re disenfranchising yourself by doing that. I just want to vote for a party because I actually like them.
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Image Transcription: Tumblr
mikemaeshiro
[A screenshot of a twitter post which is transcribed below]
Rebekah Jones, @GeoRebekah
Everyone seems to agree that a revolution is long overdue in America
One side wants to bring back slavery, nazis, fascism, and women not being allowed to vote or own property.
The other side just wants healthcare and education.
The media thinks these two things are equal.
IDK what the fuck you guys have been watching for the last two months. I’ve been watching a genocide unfold with unaninmous bipartisan support. If you can see that and don’t think both parties are beyond redemption, you’re part of the problem.
I’m assuming we’re talking about the actual parties/politicians here, not the people.
The issue is that there are sides. And only 2 at that. Neither serves the people very well or we would have sane healthcare costs, wages, housing, transportation. We would also not have as much pollution in our air, soil, and water. "Both Sides"cater to political campaign donors above all else. That is the problem.
This is why we can’t even get anywhere. Both sides purposely misrepresent the other.
Right, surely the people who keep doing horrible things and announcing plans to do more horrible are only unpopular with everyone else because of tribalism. Couldn’t possibly be their actions.
What would be your description of what both sides want?
I love how every response to calling out the tribal shit slinging hyperbolic strawman is “okay so what do they believe” completely missing thr point and side stepping it just to do more tribal shit slinging.
How is it tribal to know what you stand for or what you think someone stands for?
Because it’s obvious what the user asking for this wants is to know if the other commenter thinks differently, they wants a reason to attack them and belittle them. That is all that’s been happening in this thread.
I want to know what they think. I want to see how they view what the Republicans and Democrats are doing. I can easily say what I think they are doing and how they are not the same, so I want to know what makes them think they are the same.
This is exactly the problem. When you say that you want to ask these questions just to find out what ‘the other side’ thinks, you are treating the conversation as if the other person is a member of ‘the other side’ and can speak for their viewpoints. There can be people who disagree with you that aren’t far-right religious extremists.
Yea, so I want to know what they think.
Both sides clearly want to say the most extremist strawmans of the other side to rile up support and increase animosity towards the other side.
Yea, the far left of universal health care and diversity. Which has never been in power, unlike the far right.
Really? You turn this into a mis-characterization of the left? My point is that there are equally radically Twitter claims from the right. For instance, you don’t think there are Republican-voting individuals who think Democrats are coming for all their guns?
I do, but that’s not the far left, that’s the liberals. You go actual left and you keep your guns to protect yourself from the right wing lynch mobs that is ant the gays to die.
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If woman cannot vote, you don’t need to educate them. So you will have more budget per student thus improving education.
With slavery you can introduce heavily subsidized/free services (including healthcare)
So I ask you, are the two sides really apposing or completing each other?
Lemmy,
please don’t take this literally.
This is literally the platform of right-populism. “Wasn’t it good in the 50s when a single income for a guy with an associates was enough to support a family in a life of comfort, and a summer job could pay for university? That’s why women shouldn’t be in the workforce and black people shouldn’t have rights.”
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shit isn’t it
You forgot the part where they also give these people an easy target for the miseries in their lives.
“Do you hate your life? Do you wish you were living in a mansion, eating grapes lowered into your mouth by a servant, instead of working 50 hours a week? Well, have we got a deal for you! Just try Blaming A Minority, and all your problems will disappear! But wait, act now, and we’ll throw in a second minority, free! Just pay shipping and handling, and vote for our fascist candidate”
Anyone on the left who actually believes this image is worse, as they’re willfully ignorant.
thanks for this screenshot of an instagram post of a screenshot of a tweet
Title seems to contradict the content
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Life is rough on the Rim
The right can be bad without being the 2nd coming of the nazis, whats being said here is so obviously a lie its silly.
“Both sides” as a definition, before you ever make comparisons, is already a diminutive of reality. The idea that there are only ever two viewpoints, despite the reality of the current American political situation, is naive at best. Even within the two major US parties there are fractious and conflicting personalities.
The “both sides” argument isn’t asinine because it equates the two major players, its asinine because it accepts their premise that they’re the only ones that matter.
There are only two sides that matter thanks to our shitty voting systems.
If your argument were “There are only two sides that matter when voting” it would still be wrong, but at least it would make sense. Voting matters, but it isn’t the only thing that matters.
The “both sides” argument isn’t asinine because it equates the two major players, its asinine because it accepts their premise that they’re the only ones that matter.
Can’t it be asinine for both reasons?
It could, but the former is predicated on accepting the latter as fact. Argue about the former all you like, you’re basically already arguing that your opinion doesn’t matter because you only get two options anyways.
As someone who is not from the US I have to say: this “meme” is very biased and one sided. Most of you do not even understand how one sided it is. You are taking your moderate opinion and comparing it with the most extreme opinion of the other side. If the other side did this they would say:
One side just wants that they stop killing babies
The other side wants to brainwash children into mutilating their own bodies.
