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Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents::Several state governors are fighting fear mongering as they attempt to reduce transportation emissions in their states.
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I have to commute one way 250 kms with one settlement on the way (75 km from one end) for work. There are not many EVs now that I would be comfy making that trip right now (more so after the battery ages a few years, in winter etc.) but their are some. In some countries the range is fine, in cities the range is fine but where I am the range is the major limiting factor. Please don’t call market demands “fear mongering” just give me more range.
I don’t need any super acceleration or a top speed 2x the speed limit, I want range.
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Household transport is a fraction of a fraction of the states emissions. But hey that cost of living sure is going through the roof, better double the cost of cars to shift internal combustion to remote combustion.
Depending on the EV, the total cost of ownership is cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle (due to fuel savings, and being mechanically simpler to maintain and repair). I’m pretty sure personal vehicles are the largest source of personal CO2 emissions, since it takes an EV 34kwh to travel 100 miles, and ICE vehicles are 4x less efficient. Pretty sure that would produce more CO2 than a typical household’s heating and cooling.
It means nothing.Unless you’re offering to help pay the difference?.
I’m not sure you understood what I wrote. EVs can pay their own difference. Depending on where you live (what your gasoline and electricity costs are), an EV can save $10,000+ in fuel over their lifespans, making some EVs cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles. I.E. you can get a new Chevy Bolt for $27k, then you’d save $10k on fuel over its lifetime. $17k is cheaper than a comparable car. I believe you’d also get a $7.5k tax credit.
Jesus christ you think everyone is on 6 figure salaries
??? The cheapest new vehicle I’ve seen is $18k. If you’re talking about used vehicles, you can get used EVs even cheaper since they tend to lose value faster. I just checked autotrader, and they have a Leaf with only 40k miles for $9k. You’re going to have a hard time finding a decent vehicle of any kind under $5k. I really don’t understand what kind of point you’re trying to argue about. Yes, vehicles are expensive, but many people need one. I spent most of my life only being able to afford vehicles that barely ran, and repairing them myself (often improvising without having the correct tools).
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Range anxiety is basically a myth or at least a real anxiety masquerading as range anxiety. Who hasn’t been out on the boonies somewhere late at night running out of gas and wondering if you were going to make it to a gas station … the real anxiety is refuel anxiety. As soon as universal fast electric charging stations are ubiquitous this “range anxiety” will suddenly disappear. Most ICE cars only have around a 300-400 mile range tops (unless maybe the hybrids) and that is never talked about. It’s not range that is the problem.
Heck 95% of my driving would be more than ok with 50 mile range if I could charge at work and it only took a few minutes to charge. An ultra capacitor car would likely fit this bill.
Well dang … unpopular opinion I guess.
But I stand by what I said. I just want an EV thats cheap with fast & ubiquitous charging. Give me those 3 things and even with crappy range and I’d dump my ICE car like yesterday.
I mean, worst case, just buy and bring a gas generator with you if you think you are going to be reaching those limits. With an EV, anyone can have a plug-in hybrid (albeit much less convenient).
You guys are allowed to leave work?
Where I used to live and work near Hartford range anxiety wouldn’t be an issue. Where I now live and work in Oklahoma it still is an extremely big issue. A friend in CO with an EV wanted to come visit but couldn’t make the drive in one day due to charging options. Hell, if I want to go on a 4 hour drive to Amarillo I need to carefully plan my fuel stops because there’s hundred mile stretches where I can’t even fill up my Ford Focus, let alone charge a Tesla. Range anxiety is a legitimate concern for much of the country.
For much of the country in terms of land maybe, but not in terms of people. Most people live in or near high population areas where using an EV is fine. The person in question saying that fear mongering needs to stop was the governor of Connecticut. Connecticut is not Oklahoma. There is zero reason to fear monger range anxiety in Connecticut.
But even for people in places like Oklahoma, there’s a couple things you should consider. First is, don’t rush out and buy an EV just because you feel like you’re being told to. Only buy an EV once your existing vehicle is no longer viable. Buying a new car when your old one still works is not very green. But definitely consider an EV when the time comes, even if you have range anxiety. Why? For one, the money you will save on gas can allow you to rent a gas car for those long trips you need to make and then you don’t have to put those extra miles on your own car. Remember, tires are expensive and wear down with miles driven. Or, with the money saved from gas, you could take a bus, a train, or possibly even an airplane. Or if you really don’t want to do any of that, you could probably find a buddy who still has a gas car and trade for the week. Just because you buy an electric vehicle, doesn’t mean you are now locked out of ever using a different kind of transportation. But number 2? Over the coming years, EV infrastructure will be constantly increasing. Yeah, some states are being regressive at the moment, but they will turn around. So even in places were range anxiety is legitimate, it won’t be a problem for much longer, except in those edge cases where even a gas car currently has issues, but since even a gas car has issues, it doesn’t make a difference. And third? There are so many companies working on battery tech right now, it’s crazy. Some are working on higher energy density so we can get longer range, others are working on better materials so we can stop using unethically acquired minerals, some are working on making batteries that function better in the cold. None of this helps the car you buy today, but it will help the car you buy in 5 years.
There’s a reason I specifically opened with how in CT it isn’t an issue before explaining that in the majority of the country (notice I said country vs the population) it still is. Like the CT governor you still seem to not quite grasp the reality of what it is like to live somewhere other than a built up urban area. There are no buses here, there are no trains here. If I wanted to rent a gas car, I need to drive 120 miles to the city because there isn’t a rental option in my town (which actually qualifies as a “city”. It’s an hour drive to the nearest movie theater. While NYC alone has more people than the entire state of OK, there are still millions of people living here that simply can’t get by with an EV for day to day lives, let alone if they want to make a trip by any transportation method. Add in the fact that even with current developments and proposals battery energy density is a hard limit of physics and chemistry, unless a completely new method of energy storage is invented it will always be 1/100th of what gasoline has meaning EVs will continue to be absurdly overweight. Don’t worry, I’m not in a rush to sell any of my ICE vehicles, at this point I might literally hold onto them forever because there isn’t a single car being made new right now that I like better than anything I currently own.
Switching to an EV is not “free”. You have to do some research, learn some new things and gain a bit of experience. Some people (for example the elderly but also stupid people) will have real issues adapting to new infrastructure. Even more people are simply to lazy to bother, will always see the effort required to switch to an EV as completely unnecessary and will complain loudly when forced to do it. The best option would be probably to wait for “EV first” generations of drivers to simply replace the current ones but we don’t have time for it. Other option would be to make the switch completely painless (imagine having a charging plug right next to the gasoline dispenser on every gas station, simply choose from diesel, gas or electric) but we’re currently very very far away from this dream. So yeah, the only option is to force people slowly to make the effort and at the same time work on making it easy enough so they don’t revolt.
Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Generators aren’t very expensive relatively speaking.
Yet I’ve never heard not seen this anywhere, and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
An average EV consumes .32 kilowatt hours of electricity per mile. If you are driving 60 miles per hour, that means you are spending 19.2 kilowatt hours of electricity every hour. So you need a generator that’s at least 19.2 kilowatt. Tack on some more because you are now towing the extra weight of a generator and because you are probably wanting to go 70mph and let’s just say you need 25 kilowatts. This is what a towable 25kw generator looks like. It costs $22k. I’m sure cheaper ones could be made, but even at $10k, is it worth it? Just buy some plane tickets or rent a gas car for a week or take a train.
https://herogenerators.com/products/25-kw-caterpillar-towable-diesel-generator
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Buy? No thanks I don’t even have a good place to store it, never mind maintenance.
But I’d rent it.
Only wrinkle: backing up. I’ve owned/used trailers many times so I have no problem with backing up, but many would. Can’t think of a way around this that would be even “almost” idiot proof.
Could use a trailer that stays directly behind the car. Like instead of just a ball hitch, have several mount points on the rear of the car, then it won’t swing freely. Maybe rig it to only use one wheel when the vehicle turns (otherwise I think it would cause a bit of understeer).
Though people do learn how to use trailers. Some truck drivers even know the black magic of backing up with multiple trailers.
Probably be more efficient to just have a towable battery you charge ahead of time.
It’s a massive waste of energy. What does a good diesel generator have, like 20% energy efficiency? Not taking into account that you’re wasting a lot energy for towing it.
It would also have to be massive.
I think it’s because someone who takes enough Road trips to use something like that would properly just get a regular plug in hybrid. That being said, this might be coming soon for ev trucks actually. The dodge ram ev is going to have a gas powered range extender, and I believe ford has patented a bed mounted version for its ev truck.
Safety as well. Generators are not built for all the regulations the DOT has. It’s a different thing to transport a generator and then actually having it fixed to a vehicle as a usable entity.
What if the generator was inside the front of the car - and only turned on when the battery was low? Wait, I’ve just re-invented the hybrid.
Yeah okay but almost nobody is making Plug-in Hybrids and they cost an absolute fuck ton of money.
You also don’t need the generator for 99% of rides so you can remove it to reduce costs.
Look at the new “Ram Charger” that works like you describe. It’s 60k and for whatever reason needs a 600hp engine and a full electric engine.
almost nobody is making Plug-in Hybrids and they cost an absolute fuck ton of money.
The 2024 Prius prime starts at $33k, is a PHEV https://www.kbb.com/phev/best-phev-cars/2024/
BMW, Volvo, Mercedes are also making PHEVs for 2024 model year So are Chrysler, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Porsche, Land Rover https://www.autoweek.com/rankings/g45455983/best-plug-in-hybrids/
There are some really expensive ones on that list, but a half-dozen under $45k
Look at the new “Ram Charger” that works like you describe
Yeah a lot of the hybrid offerings in the truck market are really not targeting the budget market at all- some of them seem to reflect automaker bets that truck buyers want more power and don’t want to compromise on towing or range. Other hybrid trucks (looking at you, Toyota) aren’t using their hybrid systems to improve fuel economy, they’re using them to juice performance.
I didn’t know the Prius was a Plug-in now. Last time I looked at them. The Prius only ran the battery under 15 and only a very short distance. Didn’t think they changed that.
$45,000 is still a lot of money. That’s a $750 Monthly payment
Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Lets work through some back-of-the-napkin math here.
Lets say the average speed you’re looking to take on your road trip is 50MPH. For that discharge rate you’d need to be able to charge at 50MPH to keep up. That would put you at a charging requirement of 50kw.
Here is a picture of a 50kw towable generator:
This isn’t even any of the additional gear needed for DC rectification and power management needed to interface with NACS or CCS.
and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
You can see why this idea doesn’t really work then.
I’m going to need to see your work for the 50mph to 50kw conversion.
Googling a rough average returned 0.346 kwh/mile for electric cars between 2000 and 2022 (wide range, im aware). Traveling at 50MPH, you go 50 miles in 1 hour (assume you’re already going 50, and stay at that speed). So you’d use [0.346KWh/mile] *[50 miles/hour] = [17.3 KW] per hour @ 50 MPH
One of the problems is that air resistance increases at a squared rate vs velocity, so that average is only really accurate at one specific speed (which tbf might actually be 50mph). But this is a lot more accurate than just replacing “mph” with “kw” lol.
My biggest red flag was the picture of a commercial-grade-looking generator when plug in hybrids can fit the generator plus electric motor, battery, AC, and all the other stuff needed under the hood.
1 Kw per mph sounds pretty bad. I would’ve thought electric cars are more efficient than that.
Also one is a force while the other is a speed. You’d need a lot of assumptions to go from one number to another single number.
How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?
Is this a concern with electric vehicles? I haven’t heard of this being an epidemic that we even need to worry about.
As someone who has been driving an EV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.
Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.
More or less exactly how every major political issue works: people with no or extremely limited personal experience repeating things they’ve been told by someone in their tribe.
I have owned an EV for a couple years. Range is constantly on my mind. Did we charge it last night? Crap, we had a 70% charge and need to go across town. If we end up running side errands, we may be cutting it close" etc
Far more mental overhead than the combustion engine car we also use.
I ultimately like the EV, but don’t pretend that it’s biggest draw back shouldn’t be a point of discussion anymore.
Are there no (or few) DC fast chargers in your city? In your described situation, I’d have no problem pulling into any number of DC fast chargers for 5 minutes to put $1.75 of kw into the car to give me plenty of charge for peace of mind.
They are pretty far inbetween, but they do exist. Definitely going out of your way to get to one
Time commitment just to get to one, time commitment to charge, time commitment to get back on track to where you were going.
There’s plenty of places and points of time that this would be a big enough of an issue for people to push them away.
However, I think people should heavily consider one especially if they’re just going in and around town and have the luxury of being able to install a charger at their home/place of residence.
Yes, if you cannot charge at home or work, your experience will differ significantly from mine. But if you can, it’s a game changer. I feel like this qualification is implied at this point. If everyone with a private driveway and a normal commute went EV, the infrastructure for people in apartments would fall into place as well.
This is how I feel about the EV range…on my PHEV. We get 40 miles max (30 in the winter) in full EV mode, and so we stress about whether we can get through our daily trips on the battery. (Of course, when our relatively small battery runs out we just use gas.)
But if we had the range that modern full EVs have I cannot imagine having range anxiety on an average day.
I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.
EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.
Yup, we did 2 x 5200+ mile round trips this year with zero issues. I think the problem is that people don’t like the fact that you actually have to think a tiny bit and plan a tiny bit sometimes instead of just jumping in the car and going until it yells at you to stop and get gas. People in this country, especially the anti-ev crowd, really dislike having to think for themselves.
As a EV owner I don’t worry about range that much but I’m constantly infuriated by the shitty charging experience. Charging at home is great but road trips are a constant pain in the ass. Let’s face it, most people are not interested in switching to EV at all and will find an excuse until ICE cars are banned (I’m looking at you people with two family cars and private garage). You want to convince the people actually thinking about it? Make charging work.
Plenty of people with two family and private garages have EVs, they get level 2 chargers or something like that hooked up for charging at home. You’re right about the charging experience though, it seems to me that too many people have EVs but not enough public garages or outside parking spaces have chargers.
What I mean is that there’s nothing more we can do to sell an EV to a family like this. Sure, lots of people already own EVs but many will not buy and EV even if they are in the perfect situation to get one. This people will only get an EV when ICE cars are gone.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. My comment was downvoted but said something similar. It’s all about charging being too slow, generally incompatible, and there not being enough of them. Once the infrastructure is fixed, acceptance will be much higher. There are so many things to like about EVs. Cheaper maintenance, cheaper operating costs, quieter, less pollution, much simpler design so less likely to break, better handling due to lower center of mass (generally), less consumables (like brakes … thanks regenerative braking), and darnit just plain fun to drive.
I have to disagree, people like you described are not aware of the charging infrastructure app ridden sign up and reliability bullshit. Fixing that isn’t going to make Karen who’s never owned an EV buy one.
Your suggestion will only help people who already own an EV and understand the struggle.
I’m saying that Karen will not even consider EV because insert default excuse. People that do consider EVs will investigate the state of the infrastructure a bit and decide to wait. Play store and other pages are full of reviews. Also, anyone riding with me can see it’s state. You don’t have to own an EV to be aware of the issues.
This sign-up pain is real. There should be a global standard that says everyone can use a contactless debit or credit card to pay ALWAYS, and the cost rate is the same as signing up to an account.
EU just passed a law to make chargers accepting credit card mandatory every 50km on main highways. It comes into effect in 2025. It’s a move in good direction but they really have to focus on availability as well. It’s crazy how long a charger can be out of service without anyone doing anything about it. It’s clearly an afterthought for all the companies involved.
cries in britland
That really should be cries in Englandland . . . I moved from Hertfordshire to Scotland 2 years ago (driving an EV all the way up the A1(M) . . . Chargeplace Scotland really works VERY well . . .
I thought the us govt funding to help build out charging infrastructure required that you could just use a credit card
The experience is pretty fine at the Tesla superchargers
Yes but we all know what the issues with Tesla are.
I think other brands can charge there soon.
I’ve just tried registering in their app and got and error. After finally entering (without any confirmation that my account was creates) the charger next to me does not appear in the app. It’s a big charging station for multiple cars and the app says it does not exist. Overall experience: 3/10.
There’s a Zunder charger next to it but their entire infra just collapse. The app is down, the page is down and the charger that admits card payments is unresponsive. Everyone run buy an EV…
some states like Tennessee have removed EV infrastructure the charging stations
how is range not an issue
In your example it sounds more like Tennessee is the issue, not range anxiety. If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue? No, it is the people removing the infrastructure.
From what I read online, Tennessee anxiety ought to be much more widespread than it seems to be.
If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue?
Yes… It would be an issue I you had a ICE car and couldn’t gas up in some states. That would be something you would have to account for. Same goes for not being able to charge an EV. Doesn’t really matter if it’s because some asshole did it for political reasons or not when you’re stranded on the side of the road.
The irony of using a Bolt EV in the accompanying photograph. A car with some of the slowest DC fast charging, and a battery that’s been reduced to 80% capacity for three years by the company who makes it.
I’d say that just reinforces their point that even “bad” EVs don’t have significant issues with range. But yeah, a bit weird to emphasise it.
It’s actually a great example.
Bolt has about 250 mile range and it’s great for everything not too far, and even ok for infrequent road trips.
And your claim about 80% reduction is false and misleading.
Why do you hate EV’s?
I own a fucking Bolt. I don’t hate EVs. It’s difficult to get the advertised range when GM insists on binding it with a software update that prevents charging above 80% as a workaround while they are still sorting out their battery recall years later.
https://electrek.co/2023/06/14/bolt-battery-recall-diagnostics/
That’s a precationary limit because of a pending recall. The batteries aren’t degraded to 80%.
You can’t use it above 80%, the reason you can’t doesn’t make a difference for your ability to drive the car.
Right and for newer vehicles there is a couple of 2020 Bolts and a 2022 Bolt EUV for low $20k or under in my area. If I travel a little bit away from my area I have found 2017 Bolts for $15k.
As mentioned they’re not great for road tripping because of their slow L3 charge speeds, but perfect for me to use for my commute or local-ish running. It or a EUV will probably be my replacement for my ‘08 Rabbit whenever it goes, but I only put on about 3k miles a year on my car soooo it might be a while. I also need to see if i can put a family of 5 in one (reverse car seat, booster, and older kiddo in the back). I think they’ll do it.
I’ve had an EV for 9 months now and I’ve actually experienced far less range anxiety with my EV than with my previous ICEs. This is due to the fact that because I can charge overnight in my garage I almost never leave home without a full battery. Versus before with my ICEs where I’d often be driving across town on fumes because I’d forgotten to fuel up the night before.
I drive in the city/urban areas the vast majority of the time so 200+ miles of range is plenty for my day-to-day needs. I’ve honestly never run into a situation where I’ve been worried about running out of juice; I rarely even get below 50%.
As for longer drives, I’ve done several 600+ mile road trips without issue. Sure, charging takes a bit longer than fueling up at a gas station but the opportunity to stretch my legs, rest in the car, or get a bite to eat does wonders for reducing road fatigue. As for finding charging stations, I’d recommend planning your route beforehand but the charging network is dense enough in my region to where I can usually choose to skip a station if it’s too busy and try the next one.
Yup, this is the part people seem unable to wrap their heads around. Waking up with a full battery every morning and never needing to play the whole “I probably have enough to make it to work and back” game is insanely liberating.
This has been my experience too, I’ve put 90k on my EV in the past 2 years. I’ve never experienced range anxiety, and I live in Australia which is a similar size to USA and we do regular road road trips of 5 plus hours.
Road trips in EVs are actully more chill because the car informs you where and when to charg and you never wait more than 30 mins to complete a charge, which frankly is how long you should be resting between 3 hour driving stints anyway. Evs actually discourage driver fatigue which has to be a plus no one mentions too.
Every single range anxiety issue I’ve read about has been from a person who almost certainly doesn’t own, and hasn’t driven an EV or has some weird preserve petrol agenda.
