I considered deleting the post, but this seems more cowardly than just admitting I was wrong. But TIL something!
Seriously though, infinity is Infinity, it’s not a number, it’s infinity.
Yes, the amount of both stacks is infinity. The question was not “What stack is easier to pay for something with”.
Both are equally easy to pay with since ∞ - X = ∞ if we disregard that 100s are more convenient way to pay for cars.
I bet you’ll get more questions buying a car with 100s than if you bought it with singles.
In Canada the $100 would be more convenient because we only gave $1 in coin form, which would be hella annoying to lug around.
Infinities can be different sizes (although in OPs case they are not): https://www.cantorsparadise.com/why-some-infinities-are-larger-than-others-fc26863b872f?gi=d5e83e23c757
Tbh I think this is correct. Not necessarily mathematically, idk maths, but realistically paying with infinite 100$ Bills is easier than with 1$ Bills. Therefore it saves time and so the .infinite 100$ Bills are worth more
Might just be me.
Just wanna say I have mad respect for you for acknowledging that you were wrong, but leaving the post up. I wish more people were as brave as you are
This is wrong. Having an infinite amount of something is like dividing by zero - you can’t. What you can have is something approach an infinite amount, and when it does, you can compare the rate of approach to infinity, which is what matters.
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Infinity is not a number. Infinity is infinity.
People are confusing Infinity with lim x->Infinity. There’s a huge difference.
The hyperreals are a formal treatment of infinite numbers. It still doesn’t let people use infinity as a number in the way that posts like this suggest, but they’re interesting nonetheless. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number
There’s a huge difference.
Infinitely huge?
I considered deleting the post
Please don’t! I’ve been out and about today and inadvertently left this post open. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the comments and it has been one of the most engaging posts I’ve seen on Lemmy
I appreciate all of the discussion it generated! Thank you <3
It depends what worth entails - if it’s just the monetary value then yeah they’re the same, but if the worth also comes from desirability and convenience, then infinite stack of 100 dollar bills would be way more desirable when compared to 1 dollar bills.
Less space needed to carry the money around (assuming it’s stored in some negative space and you just grab a bunch of bills when you wanna buy something), faster to take the bills for higher value items and easier to count as well.
This is especially true if you live in a place where the 1 dollar option would mean infinite coins rather than bank notes. :P
But then you can imagine you found a pirate’s chest with all the coins inside 🤩
The people struggling with this are the same ones that think a ton of lead is heavier than a ton of feathers
You can have infinities of different sizes
You can. This is not one of them
True, but understanding that different sizes of infinity exist and applying that incorrectly is not the same as not realizing that “a ton is a ton”.
It’s a fair analogy to obscure some complexity.
Got a better one?
Why are people upvoting this post? It’s completely wrong. Infinity * something can’t grow faster than infinity * something else.
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If you want to argue which you would rather have, that could be another argument. However, we’re weighing the monetary value of both arguments of both arguments. Neither of them is greater than the other if they are both the set of all numbers already.
Afaik it can, buy not this way.
I’m not mathmatician but I got explained once that there are “levels” of Infinity, and some can be larger than others, but this case is supposed to be the same level.
I dont really know much about this topic so take it with a grain of salt.
for $1 bills: lim(x->inf) 1*x
for $100 bills: lim(x->inf) 100*x
Using L’Hôpital’s rule, we take the derivative of each to get their ratio, ie: 100/1, so the $100 bill infinity is bigger (since the value of the money grows faster as the number of bills approaches infinity, or said another way: the ratio of two infinities is the same as the ratio of their rates of change).
The conventional view on infinity would say they’re actually the same size of infinity assuming the 1 and the 100 belong to the same set.
You’re right that one function grows faster but infinity itself is no different regardless of what you multiply them by. The infinities both have same set size and would encompass the same concept of infinity regardless of what they’re multiplied by. The set size of infinity is denoted by the order of aleph (ℵ) it belongs to. If both 1 and 100 are natural numbers then they belong to the set of countable infinity, which is called aleph-zero (ℵ₀). If both 1 and 100 are reals, then the size of their infinities are uncountably infinite, which means they belong to aleph-one (ℵ₁).
That said, you can definitely have different definitions of infinity that are unconventional as long as they fit whatever axioms you come up with. But since most math is grounded in set theory, that’s where this particular convention stems from.
Anyways, given your example it would really depend on whether time was a factor. If the question was “would you rather have 1 • x or 100 • x dollars where x approaches infinity every second?” well the answer is obvious, because we’re describing something that has a growth rate. If the question was “You have infinity dollars. Do you prefer 1 • ∞ or 100 • ∞?” it really wouldn’t matter because you have infinity dollars. They’re the same infinity. In other words you could withdraw as much money as you wanted and always have infinity. They are equally as limitless.
Now I can foresee a counter-argument where maybe you meant 1 • ∞ vs 100 • ∞ to mean that you can only withdraw in ones or hundred dollar bills, but that’s a synthetic constraint you’ve put on it from a banking perspective. You’ve created a new notation and have defined it separately from the conventional meaning of infinity in mathematics. And in reality that is maybe more of a physics question about the amount of dollar bills that can physically exist that is practical, and a philosophical question about the convenience of 1 vs 100 dollar bills, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the size of infinity mathematically. Without an artificial constraint you could just as easily take out your infinite money in denominations of 20, 50, 1000, a million, and still have the same infinite amount of dollars left over.
Infinity aside, the growth rate of number of bills vs the value of those bills has nothing to do with the original scenario though. It’s like arguing that a kilogram of feathers weighs less than a kilogram of bowling balls because the scale goes up less for every feather I put on the scale compared to every bowling ball I put on the scale.
It’s like arguing that a kilogram of feathers weighs less than a kilogram of bowling balls because the scale goes up less for every feather I put on the scale compared to every bowling ball I put on the scale.
I’m arguing that infinity bowling balls weighs more than infinity feathers, though
Try thinking of it like this: If I have an infinite amount of feathers, I can balance a scale that has any number of bowling balls on it. Even if there was an infinite number of bowling balls on the other side, I could still balance it because I also have infinite feathers that I can keep adding until it balances. I don’t need MORE than infinite feathers just because there’s infinite bowling balls. In the same way if my scale had every rational number on one side I could add enough even numbers to the other side to make it balance, but if I had all the irrational numbers on one side of the scale then I would never have enough rational numbers to make it balance out even though they are also infinite.
Edit: I suppose the easiest explaination is that it’s already paradoxical to even talk about having an infinite number of objects in reality just like it would be paradoxical to talk about having a negative number of objects. Which weighs more, -5 feathers that weigh 1 gram each or -5 bowling balls that weigh 7000 grams each? Math tells us in this case that the feathers now weigh more than the bowling balls even though we have the same amount of each and each bowling ball weighs more than each feather. In reality we can’t have less than zero of either.
Something to do with the…Greek? Hebrew? Klingon? Letter Aleph
it’s actually Vulcan
There is an infinite amount of possible values between 0 and 1. But factorially it means measuring a coastline will lead towards infinity the more precise you get.
And up all the values between 0 and 1 with an infinite number of decimal places and you get an infinite value.
Or there’s the famous frog jumping half the distance towards a lilly pad, then a quarter, than an eighth. The distance halfs each time so it looks like they’ll never make it. An infinitesimally decreasing distance until the frog completes an infinite number of jumps.
Then what most people understand by infinity. There are an infinite number of integers from 0 to infinity. Ultimately this infinity we tend to apply in real world application most often to mean limitless.
These are mathematically different infinities. While all infinity, some infinities have limits.
Yes! The difference between these two types of infinities (the set of non-negative integers and the set of non-negative real numbers) is countability. Basically, our real numbers contain rational numbers, which are countable, and irrational numbers, which are not. Each irrational number is its own infinity, and you can tell this because you cannot write one exactly as a number (it takes an infinite numbers of decimals to write it, otherwise you’ve written a ratio :) ). So, strictly speaking, the irrational numbers are the bigger infinity between the two.
Certain infinities can grow faster than others, though. That’s why L’Hôpital’s rule works.
For example, the area of a square of infinite size will be a “bigger” infinity than the perimeter of an infinite square (which will in turn be a bigger infinity than the infinity that is the side length). “Bigger” in the sense that as the side length of the square approaches infinity, the perimeter scales like
4*xbut the area scales likex^2(which gets larger faster asxapproaches infinity).It might give use different growth rate but Infinity is infinite, it’s like the elementary school playground argument saying “infinity + 1” there is no “infinity + 1”, it’s just infinity. Infinity is the range of all the numbers ever, you can’t increase that set of numbers that is already infinite.
but in this case we are comparing the growth rate of two functions
oh, you mean like taking the ratio of the derivatives of two functions?
it’s like the elementary school playground argument saying “infinity + 1” there is no “infinity + 1”, it’s just infinity
but that’s not the scenario. The question is whether $100x is more valuable than $1x as x goes to infinity. The number of bills is infinite (and you are correct that adding one more bill is still infinity bills), but the value of the money is a larger $infinity if you have $100 bills instead of $1 bills.
Edit: just for clarity, the original comment i replied to said
Lhopital’s rule doesn’t fucking apply when it comes to infinity. Why are so many people in this thread using lhopital’s rule. Yes, it gives us the limit as x approaches infinity but in this case we are comparing the growth rate of two functions that are trying to make infinity go faster, this is not possible. Infinity is infinite, it’s like the elementary school playground argument saying “infinity + 1” there is no “infinity + 1”, it’s just infinity. Infinity is the range of all the numbers ever, you can’t increase that set of numbers that is already infinite.
Those are all aleph 0 infinities. There’s is a mathematical proof that shows the square of infinity is still infinity. The same as “there is the same number of fractions as there is integers” (same size infinities).
Because the number of dollars is not the only factor in determining which is better. If I have the choice between a wallet that never runs out of $1 bills or one that never runs out of $100 bills, I’ll take it in units of $100 for sure. When I buy SpaceX or a Supreme Court justice or Australia or whatever, I don’t want to spend 15 years pulling bills out of my wallet.
There is a lot of very confident, opposing answers here…
I’m super confused. It seems most of this conversation misses the meme format. Everyone is agreeing with the middle guy. That’s how the meme works. The middle guy is right, but that’s not the point. It’s like I’m taking crazy pills.
The point of the meme format is not that the middle guy is right. It’s the opposite.
While I wish I didn’t just learn this meme’s far-right origins, I have to disagree with you. The middle guy is supposed to give a correct and boring answer. The left guy is supposed to give a common and wrong answer, and the guy on the right is supposed to have an enlightened view of the wrong guy’s answer. The best example I’ve seen is the one:
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[wrong] Frankenstein is the monster.
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[average] No, Frankenstein is the doctor.
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[enlightened] Frankenstein is the monster.
It’s still wrong to say Frankenstein was the monster. It’s deliberately misleading. So yeah, the money is the same amount, but I’d rather have a secret endless stash of hundreds than singles.
Heres my example
- [wrong] police can get away with any crimes they want (child POV)
- [average] police can’t break the law even though they are police (the way it ‘should be’)
- [enlightened] police can get away with any crimes they want (reality)
The middle person thinks they are smarter than the left person. But it turns out the left person was naive but correct, as shown by the right/enlightened person having the same conclusion. IMO anyway.
EDIT: also, the point of the example you gave is that Frankenstein the Doctor IS the monster (metaphorically) because he created the actual monster - I think you have misinterpreted it.
Dr. Frankenstein is not a monster for creating an actual monster. He is a monster for abandoning his creation and escaping the responsibility of care for his creation.
I thought we were having a friendly chat, but you really insulted my intelligence there. Do you think I would have found that meme remotely interesting if I thought Frankenstein had terminals on his neck?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to insult your intelligence in any way. Just trying to have a friendly chat also. Sometimes tone can come across wrong in text. My bad
If you take the average interpretation of “police can’t …” to mean “it’s illegal for the police to …”, then yes, the average guy is right in a boring (and tautological) way. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable way for the average person to interpret the [average] line. The meme hopes to get you thinking about the last line.
Now this money example is particularly hard to argue since if you have the interpretation that the dollar will collapse, or if you think you have to store this money, then, all resolutions suck.
If a genie were to say to me, “Anytime you need money, you can reach in your pocket and pull out a bill. Would you like it to always be $1 or always be $100?”, I think I would agree with the enlightened guy here, even though I know the boring answer is right.
I think you can make an argument either way of whether it would be better to have $1 or $100 bills.
I was more interested in debating the meme format XD
I confused though. You seem to think I didn’t quite get the format, but I feel I’ve explained how I see it, and don’t see any contrast with the meme you posted. So far that’s three in the format as I understand it.
So, if your answer to the genie question I asked a bit ago is “$100s please”, then the meme would speak to you. If you truly don’t care, the guy on right is wrong in your book. I’m in the “$100s please” camp.
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nah aah, infinity plus 1 is more, I win
Infinity plus infinity … Na na NA NA na!!! I win! Na na NA NA na!!!
Infinity plus infinity, plus +1 to whatever anyone else says, recurring. No returns!!
I think you’ll find that’s sealed tight now and that I win. Na NAAAA!
/runs off maniacally
nonono, Infinity times infinity plus one, I win! *tehee nanana Na na na! *
Really depends on whether the infinite store will break hundreds for you.
I’d argue that infinite 1 bills are worth less than infinite 100 bills. Because infinite 100 is infinite 1 times infinite 100. Even though they effectively turn into the same amount that is infinity.
Value is a weird concept. Even if mathematically the two stacks should have the same value, odds are some people will consider the $100 bill stack worth more, and be willing to do more in exchange for it. That effectively does make it worth more.
An infinite stack of either would devalue the currency so as to be completely worthless. Well, perhaps worth whatever you can recycle those bills into.
Yes and no. If you spend that infinite money, then yes. The currency would be massively devalued as you would be adding money into the economy.
If you sat on it, nothing would happen. I imagine that the Federal Bank doesn’t know about your infinite stash and therefore isn’t taking into account any equation.
So, the value is inversely correlated to the ability to spend it.
… Still sounds worthless, TBH.
The money only devalues based on how much is in circulation. You’ll only devalue the currency as you spend it and you’d have to spend a trillion to have a non-minor effect.
If you manage to keep an infinitely large stack of bills a secret, sure. Once somebody notices and word gets out, I’m doubtful it doesn’t get devalued in a hurry. Since these are bills that we are assuming are valid, it’s going to seem like the central bank is printing money with abandon. Famously not great for public confidence in a currency. Why would I keep my wealth in a currency that somebody has an infinite amount of? They may not be spending it today, but who knows when that changes? I’d certainly be scrambling to convert mine to something else.
The moment you bring in the concept of actually using this money to pay for things, you have to consider stuff like how easy it is to carry around, and the 100s win. If your pile is infinite then you don’t even need 1s at the strip club.
I got tired of reading people saying that the infinite stack of hundreds is more money, so get this :
Both infinites are countable infinites, thus you can make a bijection between the 2 sets (this is literally the definition of same size sets). Now use the 1 dollar bills to make stacks of 100, you will have enough 1 bills to match the 100 bills with your 100 stacks of 1.
Both infinites are worth the same amount of money… Now paying anything with it, the 100 bills are probably more managable.
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You could also just divide your infinite stack of $1 bills into 100 infinite stacks of $1 bills. And, obviously, an infinite stack of $100 bills is equivalent to 100 infinite stacks of $1 bills.
(I know this is only slightly different than what you’re getting at, which is that infinitely many stacks of 100 $1 bills is equivalent to an infinite stack of $100 bills)
Now paying anything with it, the 100 bills are probably more managable.
I’d take the 1’s just because almost everywhere I spend money has signs saying they don’t take bills higher than $20.
Yup. Exactly this.
Alternatively for small brains like me:
Imagine you have an infinite amount of $1 bills are laid out in a line. Right next to it is a line of $100 bills.
As you go down the line, count how much money you have at any given point.
Which total is worth more?
Imagine the line of 1s is stacked like pages in books on a shelf, but the line of 100s is placed in a row so they’re only touching on the sides. You could probably fit a few hundred 1s in the space of one 100. Both lines still have infinite bills in them, but now as you go along, you’re seeing a lot more 1s at a time.
That’s the thing about infinities, you can squish and stretch them, and they’re still infinite.
Your example introduces the axis of time which is not in consideration when discussing infinity. You’re literally removing infinity from the equation by doing that because “at any given point” by definition is not infinity. Let’s say that point is 1 million bills down the line. Now you’re comparing 1,000,000 x 100 vs 1,000,000 x 1, nothing to do with infinity
They can spend the same amount of money, but at any moment the one with 100s has more money. If you have 2 people each picking up 1 bill at the same rate at any singular moment the person picking up the 100s will have more money.
Since we’re talking about a material object like dollar bills and not a concept like money we have to take into consideration it’s utility and have to keep in mind the actual depositing and spending would be at any individual moment. The person with 100s would have a much easier/quicker time using the money therefore the 100s have more utility.
We’re definitely not talking about this like a material object at the same time, though. There’s no way for a single person to store and access an infinite pile of bills.
You can spend a 100 dollar bill faster than a 1 dollar bill, sure, but both stacks would have the same money in the bank.
Except you’re given an infinite amount of bills, not money in the bank. So even when moving the money to the bank you’d be able to access it quicker with the 100s
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