- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
Something isn’t adding up here:
Fare evasion cost the MTA $690 million last year, according to a new agency study that recommends upping enforcement
Just casual news reading has shown different numbers here.
Edit: oh I get it hellgatenyc is looking for s story and saying that the people they caught only amounted to 104k in fares at like 3 bucks a fare or something around that that’s a lot of people. I’m not a fan of the NYPD but no way they didn’t deter way more than that by their presence. Whether or not you think policing fares is right this is bullshit sensationalism. Think for yourself.
Nah, it’s what you can prove you lost. Fuck scenarios that didn’t take place. There’s no way in hell they lost almost a billion dollars in fares.
Right… But they spent $89m to prevent 104k in shrinkage…
If you’re the executive at Walmart who handles loss prevention, and you put $89m into a program that reduces shrinkage by $104k, your new duty position becomes “don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out”. It’s a gross mismanagement of public money, and while it was obviously glowed up considerably, that was what was implied In the title.
The lack of a comparison in overall losses specific to skipped fares before and after is a contemptible omission though, I’ll definitely join you on that hill :)
Of the estimated $690 million annual loss, buses accounted for the largest share with $315 million, subway evasion cost $285 million, about $46 million was due to drivers avoiding tolls and commuter rail evasion totaled $44 million, the report said. Source
Subway losses were $285 mil (41% of the total you quoted) and “the state reimbursed the city for about $62 million” of the $151 mil OT pay (leaving $89 mil).
Overall, there were 48 fewer serious crimes like murder, rape and robbery reported in the subway system this year than in 2022, according to NYPD data. The biggest change was 65 fewer reported robberies, where someone stole property by using force or the threat of force. There were also seven fewer reported rapes this year and four fewer murders, according to the newly released data shared with Gothamist. Assaults were an exception, rising by 5%. There were 26 more assaults this year than 2022, according to data. Source
So numbers are the same.
And then there’s this gem …
The vast majority of New Yorkers ticketed and arrested for fare evasion this year – 82% and 92% respectively – were not white, according to NYPD data. That’s a pattern that’s stayed consistent since 2017, when the NYPD first started publicly reporting fare evasion arrest data. Black New Yorkers are 10% more likely now to be ticketed for fare evasion than they were six years ago.
Tell me again how “good” the NYPD is.
First, fantastic job tracking down the actually relevant stats rather than the person above you who was trying to debunk.
Second - and this would only make your argument stronger and I’m not saying you needed to go this far - we would need to see if there has been an overall drop in crime rates. The tough on crime types love to tout numbers that reflect general trends as if they’re a justification or proof of the effectiveness of their policies. You need to demonstrate using proper statistical analysis to show that the falloff can accurately be attributed to a given policy.
One thing I miss about Reddit is the vetting of news sites on the major news sub.
Whether right or wrong, this “news” article comes off as pretentious and childish.
I just want facts. If I’m reading the news, I want the facts from the news site, and I’ll get the opinions from forums.
At the same time, $150 million could fund a shitload of free or discounted rides for poor people if it was administered as a social program with the same decrease in fare skipping.
Public transit trips create positive externalities by reducing car trips. In order to maximize societal good, the best fare price for public transit is $0 for everybody.
Yes, please! YIMBY
This is what I want my taxes to pay for.
Yup, public transit fares are regressive taxes.
A better city would have free public transit and pay for it by taxing the businesses that insist on nobody working remotely.
Can you imagine? Every business taxed according to the total transit time of their workers.
Either everyone lives in dense housing or everything becomes remote, it’d be amazing!
lol the wealthiest people that work in New York don’t live in New York, they mostly live in Connecticut and other close states. I’m all for it. Tax the companies that need their execs to show up the most, based on their salary, and then watch the boomers that don’t like working remote get feisty about the tax, especially because they usually have equity in the company they work for
deleted by creator
I know it can be difficult to search for answers when you have questions. I did a deep dive into the subject matter, and found the following info hidden within the first sentence:
Overtime pay for cops in New York’s subway system increased from $4 million in 2022 to $155 million over the same period in 2023, according to an analysis by Gothamist.
deleted by creator
Dude just be wrong
Jesus, someone call the burn unit
No point, they might as well of been thrown into the sun.
have been
Thank you teacher.
You’re welcome Daniel-san.
Thankfully there are a lot of grifters so at least we hope corruption reduced their arsenal
They were so psyched they could, they never stopped to think about if they should?
Mass transit should be free if they have ads on it
McDonalds should show ads instead of charging me for a burger
Is the ad revenue on mass transit actually high enough to support its operation?(ignoring even maintenance or expansion, or the replacement of unrepairable vehicles)
It’s not, and I don’t even need to go look it up.
Operating a subway is expensive. Maintenance, new lines, new trains, you name it, it costs shitloads
Operating a subway is expensive only when you don’t compare it to operating a city on cars shrugs
Yes exactly this. Car infrastructure is the most expensive transportation infrastructure per capita possible. It’s why the US spends tons of public money on transportation and has just crumbling highways to show for it.
Might also be because of how massive the US is with relatively big distances between big cities
Most commutes are not between major cities, they are within metro regions, so the size of the US doesn’t explain the terrible infrastructure. Besides, for decades now, most of Europe has no political impediments to travel, same as the US. People can commute from Berlin to Madrid as if it were one country. Density matters, but not the size of the country.
As for density, there are many US regions that are of similar density and distance apart as European cities, such as DC-NY-Boston, or Portland-Seattle-Vancouver, SF-LA, etc.
It’s so expensive that the NYC subway used to be multiple private railroad companies but the business just wasn’t feasible (at a reasonable price) when the market had a downturn - which is why the city eventually took it over.
This is why the track geographies are so odd in NYC
I don’t care. I just hate ads.
It varies. Usually fares are just there to ration use of the mass transit, providing less than a third of its cost (ignoring capital)
Also: why would you ration transit? You want as many people as possible to use it
No one’s so cheap they cycle instead. Those who cycle do so for health. We could free up there roads for the die hard drivers
For bus systems at least the amount fares cover is typically on the order of 5% give or take in the US. The fact that bus fares exist at this point in the US has got everything to do with emotions, narratives and a political stance against providing a social safety net and nothing to do with cold hard economics.
The fares themselves usually account for a tiny portion of the overall revenue. For example, in 2021 the MTA had $7.8 Billion in revenue. And they are fighting for $100k of lost fares
Mass transit should be free and not have ads on it.
In fact, all advertising in public spaces (including things like billboards mounted on private property but aimed towards the street) should be prohibited.
For the public and environment policy that mass transit is made for (freeing up parking space; removing polluting cars from the road; reducing congestion; reducing carbon burn) yeah. Mass transit should have no usage cost
I’ll accept public service adverts. Telling you about services, advertising health and well-being, telling you to keep your feet off the seats
If I were “dictator for a day” one of the odd things I would do is ban all billboards. I think this every time I drive down the highway.
deleted by creator
In Washington State, it’s relatively difficult to have billboards along highways. It’s one of the reasons our state is still beautiful to travel across.
Every time I end up in other states that have much looser billboard placement laws it’s just awful and I wonder how people can live like that.
Maine is a billboard-free state
At least last I was there, wholly illegal in Vermont. You also never see it in Norway.
Many cities have taken baby steps, such as prohibiting tall signs. More steps to go
removed by mod
My city’s transit is already being treated like a homeless shelter, so having free transit would be amazing but a disaster.
edit sorry I have feelings about this lol, I didn’t mean to send all this energy at you, more like I needed to howl into the void
This is such an enraging narrative and I encounter it all the time. My city has lots of homeless because the climate is temperate (and for other reasons but not the point of this post). My city also has free bus transit (no fares no nothing).
People ALL the time hem and haw to me about being concerned if we have free transit it will be “overrun” by homeless. Often it is people I am talking to about mass transit living in my own city who have zero clue we have even have free bus transit.
At the end of the day if you are “concerned about the homeless” using the bus too much or something you know the best solution? Use the damn bus, not only will you actually see with your own eyes that homeless are just using the bus like everybody else, you help push the needle of what the average bus user looks towards you and away from whoever you are imagining as bad.
Free mass transit is the foundation of the best cities in the past and future, hamstringing transit because of a fear of homeless “ruining” it is the definition of shooting ourselves in the foot for no reason.
Yes I see homeless on the bus a lot, I see lots of people on the bus. There tends to be a lot of humans on the bus.
I use the bus daily. And mentally ill homeless walking around pointing their finger at your kid and saying “bang!” Or telling your wife “I wanna touch you!” Is not ok. Those are the ones I’m talking about. The ones that make their issues into everyone else’s. When you start threatening my family, my sympathy for your situation and mental health vanishes
I have rarely if ever encountered homeless like that. Sure it makes sense to get upset about that, but a lot of people’s perception is that every single homeless person is like that.
So, give them homes. Tiny homes are cheap and for most homeless people not having a house or address is the number one reason they can’t get a house or address. The others need to be in a care facility. It should take a true renegade to remain homeless. But we value profits over everything else.
The biggest homeless issue in my city isn’t with the homeless who want help, it’s with the mentally ill ones who don’t want help or are too sick to ask. There’s really no way to deal with that tier of homeless unless you do it by force, which most anti homelessness activists are against.
They’re against the old school mental institutions that abused people. They very much advocate for concentrating services and shelters so homeless people aren’t trying to get all over the city for that stuff. Psychologists and Pharmacies would absolutely be included in those services.
Transit should be free and the money spent implementing the fare-collection system should be spent on housing the homeless instead.
And this is why Seattle mostly ignores people who skip out on fares.
The Capital Hill train is totally useless, but I love that I’ve never paid for it, so… Win win?
Capitol Hill train? Do you mean the light rail, which visits many neighborhoods and even other cities?
imagine how much better the public transit in NY would have been with that 150 million.
Citations Needed did an episode about this. “Fare evasion” crackdown is a bullshit excuse to beef up cops and redirect public attention
I feel like you can make that case about sooo many ‘crackdowns’ because of the way crime statistics and reporting is done in America. But if that was true we’d eventually have declining violence rates in the face of over militarized police where the media focuses on spectacles of violence to justify the spendings. Good thing thats not what’s happening right now /s.
That’s why income-based fines should be done.
Lmao, because millionaires are the target demographic fare evading.
Can you explain what you’re trying to say here? I don’t think I understand clearly.
He’s saying the rich don’t ride the subway and if they do, they buy a ticket. So a wage based scaling infringement system would be borderline useless, because you’d likely be issuing a lot of fines to the homeless and working class
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/04/wealthy-people-shoplift-rob-steal-why
Rich people steal more than poor people. Not even getting into things like wage theft, they just do, so yes, they absolutely would jump a turnstile and laugh when you tried to punish them with a non-income based fine.
I know this is a Captain Obvious moment but I’ll bite anyway, just imagine how great it would be if we just socialized public transit and our tax dollars worked for us, instead of trying to incarcerate us.
What sort of country would it be if the police wasn’t trying to ruin anyone’s life on a daily basis?
I was going to say it is a socialized transit program, but apparently the NYC MTA is a “public benefit corporation,” aka the bog standard neoliberal privatization fetish that oh-so-accidentally serves to funnel wealth to the C levels and boards.
This sounds like the NYPD working like the Mafia, no work and no show jobs, taking jobs that they know they’re not gonna do or investigate. They’re stealing from the city to make their officers and departments richer.
You get your car stolen, or robbed and you can’t find a cop to even pretend they give a shit. But they’re happy to take $150 million off our ass.
You’re dead on. NYPD is entirely useless. I’ve had to call them before due to violent fights outside my door, they called back 3 hours later asking if the fight was still happening.
Yeah. Not just NY, either. About a decade back where I live we called the cops about a curb-stomping we witnessed living across the street from the local bar. We had our radio on. Here was the timeline.
- We call and report it
- Bouncer comes outside of the bar and says “I just got a call there’s a fight going on. You guys gotta break it up; the cops are coming”
- Wait 5 minutes, as the victim gets told to leave and “go clean up” and the attacker walks back into the bar.
- Dispatch (who has been quiet) reports on radio that somebody reported a fight in front of that bar
- Wait 5 more minutes (did I mention the station is about 0.5 miles from this bar? In a small town with no traffic?)
- One officer shows up, looks around without asking anyone anything
- Radio back to dispatch “no fight here”
The end. We identified ourselves in our report, the officer declined to visit and question us. There were at least 5 eyewitnesses, and we live in a town that they’d probably talk… but nope.
bruh they think it like a DBZ fight or something 💀
“Yeah officer they’re still there and they’ve been monologing for two episodes, come now, they’re distracted.”
“Come quickly before he remembers the good memories he made with his friends and get a power up!”
Brooooo, super off topic but seeing you name and profile pic got me fired up, I love ocelots.
Isn’t it absolutely asinine that new york voters literally elected a fuckin cop from the NYPD, which is well-known as being one of the most corrupt and racist police departments in the nation?
I honestly couldn’t believe it even after all the 2020 protests against American law enforcement.
That’s nothing. Trump never paid taxes for a decade on millions of dollars of income and property. No one bothered to catch him until it was convenient to not get a psycho president again.
If you own a house but can barely afford it, this is how you become homeless. Ofcourse, a new body would come into the story to purchase your home from the bank after it reposese it.
It’s not about the fares, it’s about the control.
Yeah, police are a service, not a cost of goods sold. It’s supposed to cost money, it’s not supposed to pay for itself.
I agree with you and I really do not like modern policing at all. Just like the post office we shouldn’t evaluate it simply on the most discrete of monetary accounting. However in this case I prsonally feel like the response was disproportionate in both money and execution wise comapred to even the desired goal, which takes a little longer to say but has a teeny bit of nuance to it.
The downvotes you’re getting are wild to me, I feel like everything you said was objectively true, and without personal opinion even. If someone has an issue with what the police are doing here it’s not hard to look further than the money in vs. money out equation, and it is lazy to lean on only that financial argument.
Very true but there is a line my man. If they had blown that much money going after serious criminals? Sure. But 150 fucking million to track down and catch what is essentially half a step above shoplifters?
You might be right, and I’m not one to suggest we ought to spend more on police when an equivalent crime reduction could be the result of spending the money on social services.
All I’m saying is that you cannot measure its success or failures by comparing the cost to one type of arrest. The article mentioned a 2% reduction in major crimes, and while we can’t really know if that’s caused by theincreased spending, if one rape or one murder was stopped as a result of increased police presence or increased overtime, then what is that one crime worth?
But did they stop any of those things while on toll duty? I think someone should have gathered information like that before parading out a cost sink this big, that on the surface, has the look that they just pulled off the perfect in plan site crime of stealing NY tax dollars to punish a few people that for whatever reason didn’t pay the toll.
If you could instead point to a chart that stated, while we had officers stationed watching for toll dodgers we caught X amount of people trying to rob people, or stopped X amount of potential rapes I could see the benefit. But tooting your own horn without any of that, over what looks like robbing the NY citizens of millions of taxes dollars should have the attorney general bringing charges.
Half step below, I’d say. Shoplifting is a more serious infraction (not that I care) because they’re taking physical items.
This is just a small fraction of the cost of upkeep and maintenance and is intangible.
The same thing is true for public transit! We shouldn’t even be trying to charge for it in the first place, let alone spend money policing fare evasion.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
The most successful drug smuggler in the USA
But is it supposed to waste money?
Man they take that shit seriously. Roughly twenty years ago, I was headed for a train, which I paid for. I think the mechanics were that I bought a paper ticket that had a magnetic stripe on it, then put that into the turnstile to enter.
The turnstile ate the ticket, didn’t let me go through, and didn’t come back out.
So I hopped it.
No fewer than four NYPD were right up on me and they were not happy about the situation at all. They surrounded me I guess so I couldn’t run?
I explained, and the only reason I got out of it was that some other people had seen me pay and attempt to put the ticket in and told the cops the same story I’d told them. This combined with my out of state license demonstrating that the whole thing was indeed new to me got them to let me go, but not without a very stern warning.
I really thought I was going down that night.
I’ve seen no less than eight cops hiding around the corner from an open emergency door at Times Square. They truly are terrible.
Cool, so the city paid for 4 people to sit and watch a turnstile for who knows how long to prevent, what, $100, $1000 in lost revenue?
It costs them $50/hr per cop (roughly). Is the argument really that this squad is stopping more than 60 people every hour from skipping fares?
