A future-of-work expert said Gen Zers didn’t have the “promise of stability” at work, so they’re putting their personal lives and well-being first.
No one has ever wanted to work.
Soft disagree. I want to do meaningful work and interesting work. It’s boring bullshit getting 10 managers to approve a change when none of them know what I even do. I love working on my projects in my garage, or in my kitchen on baking something.
This is a hot take. People have definitely wanted to work. The problem is now we don’t need to. There was a point that humans needed to work or we would not evolve as a species. There are many that took pride in being a part of that. Now that need has shifted into we could feasibly feed and shelter every soul on the planet and a few greedy fucks don’t know how to coordinate it with all their riches.
I don’t think they have. I think they were made to labor under the whip or under a promise for something. You’re like that other guy thinking the guy cracking the whip or promoting the latest video game are “working”.
The freedom to pursue ones interests isn’t work.
Depends what you mean by work. People always want to do things and create things and help others. They don’t want to spend 8 hours a day doing menial, meaningless crap just to be able live.
My point is that they did. Back when there was a sense of accomplishment that added to the human existence. There was a sense of pride to a lot of workers in the 50s for many reasons. I do agree that it has changed. And a lot of it has to do with the rewards given. But they still exist.
Wow what a sweeping statement with no legs to stand on.
I love work. I worked (yes) quite hard to get a degree and become a developer and ML engineer. One day, I’d like to work in computational neuroscience. I hate so many things about work culture, but the work itself? Naaah, it’s awesome. I’d rather spend every day in this life working on something I love and have interested in, instead of going around making sweeping statements about the entire globe on the internet, incapable of accepting that not everyone is like me.
Whatever you do isn’t work, buddy and you knew that before replying.
It literally Is work, and you knew that before replying /: see we can both say shit like that.
You need it to be defined as work.
snek’s statement still stands. They announced they love work. It negates the prior statement. Why downvote then?
I thought this was Work Reform, not Anti Work 😭 my mistake
I feel the same way.
Modern “work” does not involve doing something you’re passionate about or interested in for the vast majority of people…
Cheating. Changed the definition of the word “work”
Yep so not “all” of them.
Check out the term “hyperbole”
Cheating. This is akin to saying, “I was just kidding!”
Cheating? This isn’t a game, it’s a conversation
Oh my oh my sorry for taking people in the internet at face value. Next time I’ll just guess what their thought process was and live my life based on that.
Thanks but apology declined
Here’s another one: I’m so sorry your life must really suck with work and all to the point that you can’t see other people enjoying it and where you feel the need to say they aren’t really “working” just because they found something they love and succeeded in navigating the shitty system (out or merit or luck or privilege, whatever) and you didn’t /:
We can all be on the same side. I hate modern work culture and I actively try to improve it and myself day after day. I’m sure you do too.
Could you accept that one too?
Cheers bud.
Lol, good try at turning snek’s argument against him, but that was clearly sarcasm.
owen is the reason /s was invented.
If you live in more ancient times, do you want to be a slave?
Pfft. This article isn’t nearly in depth enough on the topic.
How about the fact that minimum wage hasn’t kept up with inflation? How about the fact that social security and medicare will be gutted by the time they reach elder years? If they reach those elder years at all with all the homelessness, famine, drought, war, and genocide that is already here and creeping into even the most affluent parts of society?
When you ask why kids don’t want to work these days, perhaps you’re not asking the right question because the better question is so uncomfortable, you’d rather not ask it?
Cuz the better question is “Why would kids even want to live in this increasingly nightmarish world my and previous generations have all had a hand in creating?”
But hey, don’t worry about it. Just keep your head in the sand, keep removed about shit you don’t want to understand, and count your stock options, capitalism daddy. /s
Recently the boss asked since guy why he doesn’t put in more effort for the end of year evaluation and a promotion. Guy opens a spreadsheet that he’d been working on. It basically shows that even when he’d double his wage in that promotion, he still would not be able to afford a house and felt striving for a promotion in those circumstances didn’t matter much. The boss left.
When you ask why kids don’t want to work these days…
It’s simple - just don’t ever ask:-). \s :-( 🥲
And yeah, the rate of suicide (including overdosing) is quite shocking. Or depending on who you ask I would guess, “excellent” (evil laughter while wringing hands). Factors like race or even class doesn’t seem to matter to them (edit: okay so they do matter, but it still happens across all of them) - globalization and mechanization means fewer workers are necessary, hence what is not necessary is irrelevant, to The (Illuminati’s) Machine, that cares only for survival of the fittest. :-|
Oh, and no - “keeping removed about shit” implies things like not actively voting to take away further rights & privileges. Roe v. Wade was just the start! Next are elections and democracy itself… I only wish I could add a /s here, but from the chatter… it’s no longer just a joking matter anymore? :-( That generation isn’t done yet it seems, implementing the will of whatever their chosen TV Man tells them to do:-(.
Like “You Must Bow Before the Will of God” - oh so you mean like care about people, taking care of widows & orphans, pay workers the wages they are due, always show kindness and compassion even to the undeserving, stuff like that? “No, I meant lower taxes on the top 0.0000001% - and also wipe my butt for me”. Ooookkkkkkaaaaayyyyyy then…
On the bright side, Gen-Z has stuff figured out - they know how to be happier, simply by not giving a shit:-D. Yes they will suffer - as will we all - but less so, having broken free from that horrible mindset that blinded their predecessors? :-)
Welcome to South Europe. We know work is what pays the bills, only that. Live is everything else.
it’s genuinely bewildering seeing someone my age talk about a ‘career’…like…what dude? oh maybe if i work hard the guy will shake my hand and give me a raise? do you live in a norman rockwell painting?
“Many of us built, whether it’s bought homes or whatever, based on this promise of stability,” Jesuthasan said. “There was this expectation that the tail was bigger. And we took on liabilities and obligations early on because of that tail. I think this generation has seen that tail dissipate.”
In other words, when millennials did what their parents did and assumed if they worked hard they’d get to live a decent life. Then they got fucked by companies whose priorities became getting as much out of their employees as possible while investing in those employees as little as possible.
As a millennial, I hated the idea of debt. As a result, I’ve had no debt beyond college loans despite being able to afford a lower middle class lifestyle. It took me never living alone (roommates, SOs) but I did it. The education was bullshit and the loans were obscene but I got a piece of paper that helped me keep my job. After working in the public sector for 20+ years I actually had my loans forgiven… and now rent is going through the roof to compensate. Still, I might actually own a home before I’m 50, assuming current and future landlords don’t decide to take me for all I’m worth.
When I finally own a home, I’m sure it’ll get washed away by the thirteenth “century flood” that year or some other bullshit thanks to climate change. So fucking glad I decided not to have kids. Fuck this world.
If it makes you feel any better, the rent was going to skyrocket regardless of the loan forgiveness. That’s just the generations before us people trying to make sure they get to the top so they can pull the ladder up behind them.
We have no loan forgiveness here in Canada and rent is still going up faster than anyone can afford. It doesn’t help that all of the politicians are landlords.
That sounds like a horrible Kafkaesque nightmare. I fear my country is heading in the same direction. I’m saddened that it got so bad in the US, and that the “obvious steps in the right direction” were simply voted against. I’m reminded of the Community episode where they explore the alternative realities. We’re in the “Bernie lost to HIllary” one. Before that happened, I told a friend “Well… if Bernie loses, it’s all going to shit”. Sucks to have been right, although it started some time ago with Reagan gutting the middle class.
We either figure out how to redistribute wealth in the society in the next 30 years, or… “going to shit” will be the least of our problems.
I just saw the other month that only like 46% of Millennials own a house, compared to the 65% average of other generations. And of those who don’t, 52% of them aren’t saving for a down payment, often because of how shitty wages and even finding a job are. On top of that, only 20% of houses are currently affordable for the average American worker, down from 60% in 2016. And people wonder why we have no faith in the system.
Gen Z saw what happened to Gen X and to us Millennials, and don’t expect it to get any better for them either.
My only hope for owning a home is my parents dying at this point
A perfect example of why is, my dad used to work at Boeing, made $30/hr in the 90s
I have a friend (of my generation) who also signed on at Boeing, they’re paying him $26/hr, 30 years later
Millennial here. I was talking to my mom about this recently. We worked out the math of what I earn vs my dad at my age. Then we looked at what I laid for my house vs what they paid for theirs. For context, my parents still live in the same house I grew up in, and my house is in the same neighborhood and roughly the same size.
Their house in 1983 dollars would be about $165k today. My house was $275k in 2019, and that was well below most reasonable comps at the time. Now it’s supposedly worth $400k. At least that’s what my taxes and insurance are based on.
My dad had a solid white collar job. Not c suite, but firmly middle class at the time. I’m finally in a similar position after the 2008 and 2020 bullshit.
His salary when he was about 40 would be $140k in today dollars. I earn nowhere near that and have way more house debt.
Putting it in those terms was really eye opening for both of us. Most of my friends don’t have kids and don’t own a house. Shit, some still even live at home with their parents. We’re definitely not doing better than our baby boomer parents. The American dream died a generation or two before mine.
That extra $4 pays for the CEO’s superyacht.
It pays for the amazing views out the side of your depressurized 737, those don’t come cheap you know
“Gen Z is catching on. Vilify them!”
And then you’ve the fucktards who say in the WEF and other places that “people have to suffer” in order to be more productive / want to work.
They have seen the legacy of all these broken promises. In the old days and in many parts of the West, they would promise you if you worked for 30 years, you have this defined benefit pension, you have retiree medical care, etc. None of that exists today.
But at the end of the day it was the same fucktards who broke the social contract when it comes to work and benefits.
I’m only as good as the value I’m delivering today, and so these are the terms under which I want to work, and you either meet them or not.'"
That’s the right approach to the job market and I’m not even Gen Z. The current state of things, like expecting people to work multiple jobs, underpaying, firing to then hire at half the rate, constant layoffs, unreasonable demands and managers it’s all bullshit that people can’t stand anymore.
numerous Gen Zers are “quiet quitting” and taking a step back at work because they’re painfully aware that their hard work could essentially amount to nothing.
When a employers and governments “loudly quit” on people’s life’s and expectations that’s what they get.
In one survey last year, 74% of managers said the generation was the most challenging to work with.
How many of those managers are 50+ years old, with all they ever wanted and a sense their hard work payed off?
Could amount to nothing
Read between the lines here, article writer 🥲, everything amounts to nothing. Nobody wants their life to pass by unlived
Old people are impossible to talk to, painfully neurotic and stupid and obsessed with collecting clothing and electronics. They have zero compassion. They know the social contract is broken and they keep telling us to make the same decisions as them knowing we will get nothing for it and die
Old people are impossible to talk to, painfully neurotic and stupid (…) They know the social contract is broken and they keep telling us to make the same decisions as them knowing we will get nothing for it and die
I guess this is the story of Brexit? The UK shouldn’t have allowed people over 50 years old to vote on that referendum, because they aren’t likely so see the effects of the decision and they’re still delusional about a great empire that can stand alone while they watch American TV shows on a TV made in China and a chair designed in Sweden…
“Old people” is pretty inaccurate but a lot of cool old people can be presumed to be dead as well
Well I’m American so maybe I should clarify only 10% of the people here even currently get to grasp the American dream and statistically it’s white people who get to be homeowners and live in the suburbs and be paranoid and rude to everybody including each other.
We are not doing well everything is falling apart infrastructure wise even in wealthy areas. You better be on the Amazon or Microsoft campus etc if you want it kept up.
Brexit is part of a larger pattern too, we’re basically trying to make Europe Asia-exit lol. And in the same way it will benefit Asia long run.
Meanwhile we try to turn you guys into Senegal #2, a source of crude oil to refine, and a market to buy our refined oil! As long as you continue to develop more drilling without refinement it’s the only way. Geopolitical economy 🗺️
We are not doing well everything is falling apart infrastructure wise even in wealthy areas.
Just to clarify I’m not American nor British and the situation here is mostly what you describe on that phrase. The European dream died before it even started.
Ah makes sense. Another example. We like completely destroyed German manufacturing with these energy prices in the process of trying to sever the region from Russia lol
I wouldnt say its the energy prices that are destroying German industry (I am German too), but the lack of innovation and way too much bureaucracy (and no, that doesnt mean we should lower emission standards, etc., but we should simplify processes and remove rules that serve no one).
It’s making it pretty non competitive and that makes things harder down the line, it’ll become more apparent bc it’s all about keeping up yeah? Same thing happening in USA, due to financialization of fuckin everything and wnting to export labor to countries we have the upper hand on
Look at the whole TSMC expansion debacle
#fuckyourdividends
I just saw Docs, nurses and staff who had pensions for 30+ years just get butchered as the new Hospital system took over. Routed it all to standard 401ks. Why put your soul into a company. They will never come through. That ship has sailed.
My only hope is people look around at the fact that one of the few ways to still get a pension is through union work, and the current unionization wave continues into something bigger, better, and greater than we’ve had in the past.
That’s what this new wave of layoffs and threats of layoffs is to help curtail.
That’s one of the risks of not being unionized. My employer can’t touch my pension (not that they would want to since they all came up from the union rank and file too) because it’s all managed through our union contract and there’s no chance in hell that we ever approve a contract that gives them that kind of control.
Even that isn’t complete protection. The government can always change the rules as they go. Not to mention a complete breakdown of society wouldn’t exactly do wonders for pensions and 401k’s either.
You shouldn’t live to work, that’s a terrible, shitty, boring, sole sucking way to survive, sure some people enjoy that way, but those guys are the minority, or theyve managed to make their hobby a job so they’re not actually working a day in their life, just getting paid to enjoy their hobby
You work to live. You do just enough work so you can go and enjoy yourself. I generally try not to work too much overtime, and I refuse to be on call unless I get desperate for a cash injection.
Working to live is the one reason I haven’t moved out of home - I pay A$450 a fortnight in board, and that’s far less than most rental properties, (who usually require that but weekly but for a residence that is far worse than where I currently live) and the only room and clothes I have to keep clean are my own.
I got my hobbies and I indulge in them regularly - I game or read my book on the bus to and from work (recently managed to obtain a steam deck for on the go gaming) I livestream when I want to, even if no one’s watching. I go visit my friends on weekends - usually an hour out of my way down the back roads, because I like driving the winding roads and it’s a bonus that it just happens to unironically be the fastest route to their place.
My job isn’t too stressful, and honestly I’m not wanting for much more than I already have. And because I live at home, Im not in debt (apart from my government university debt, but added taxes slowly pay that off, and there’s no deadline to pay it off in full) and am actually saving for a house deposit in the future.
I’m happy, I mean it won’t last, I’ll eventually have to move out - my parents won’t want me living with them forever. Wether I can save enough to get a deposit on a mortgage or have to rent remains to be seen. Hopefully the housing market collapses like it needs to.
I’m curious about how different Gen Z is from Millennials here, because everyone in my age range that I know seems to share this sentiment with them?
I feel like millennials have a “It is what it is, guess ill work til I die” attitude whereas Gen Z have more of a Bartleby the Scrivener “I’d rather not” energy.
Gen x here and we seen it coming as well but no options for us at the time. I don’t blame any of you. Corporate greed and the great 401k lie is bullshit. They want us to work till we’re dead. Screw them.
The great 401k lie?
Can’t speak for OP, but I don’t look at the 401k as a stable retirement vehicle. It’s a vehicle to pump “dumb money” (read: casino chips) into the stock market. If the stock market downturns just before you retire, if the firm managing your 401k makes bad investments, if another 2008-style real estate collapse happens, your retirement fund suddenly has less money in it than you hoped, so you’re gonna have to work longer.
if the firm managing your 401k makes a bad investment
The administrator of your accounts has zero control over most of the funds available in them, their rise or fall, and your funds are separate from any investments that financial institution may or may not have made.
If you have a 401k with fidelity, or ADP or Schwab or Trowe Price or whoever, some of those are banks, soke finance companies, some payroll, anyway, the point is for each, the money in your account is yours to allot and invest as you wish based on yhe invesrment options your company chose or negotiating with them to administer your company’s plan. The admin makes money by admin fees, not by taking your money and reinvesting it in something you don’t know about. Granted, yes if there is a stock market crash, most financial companies will similarly overall struggle, but they have lots of arms and operations (mortgage loans, commercial, consumer banking, investment banking, etc.) and they are 100% all disconnected from the money in your 401k.
That said, 401ks are awful and a sham that were pushed on an uninformed public and we’ve only just begun to see the effects as the first generation reaches end of work age…and can’t stop working. It’ll continue. Props to anyone fighting and organizing against it or trying to avoid as much as possible. System fully bought and broken by greed.
Thanks for the informed take.
the money in your account is yours to allot and invest as you wish
While true, I’m not an investor, I’m a software engineer. I don’t know good investments from bad, so if I tried to invest myself as an uninformed person, odds are good I will lose a lot of money very quickly. And becoming an informed investor is a lot of time and effort I don’t have. I rely on the managed plan because I know there are professionals handling it.
based on the investment options your company chose or negotiating with them to administer your company’s plan.
My employer actually switched our 401k’s from ML to John Hancock. I had no say in this, I don’t know if JH is more or less competent as a firm than ML. So if I have fewer choices because I don’t know how to invest and would prefer someone to manage it, I have even fewer choices because I don’t even get to choose who manages it.
That said, 401ks are awful and a sham that were pushed on an uninformed public
This is where we most agree. Most people don’t know how to invest, so they either let the retirement funds handle it, or they try it themselves. If they try it themselves, they either have to learn how to invest, or they have to get lucky. If the funds handle it, they can be lured in by “stable, lucrative” investments that turn out to be bad, like Mortgage-Backed Securities. Even informed investors can lose money. No matter which path we follow, it all becomes gambling in the end. It’s unacceptable that retirement funds are treated as such.
What’s the point of your first two paragraphs? The person you responded to is 100% right. The point is to pump money in to the fuckin stock market so the wealthiest people can profit off that “investment”
The point was is the plan administrator has no control over whether the value of his account goes up and down, which Op said they did. I agree with everything else Op said but think it’s important since most people don’t understand the mechanics to learn about them so added the correct info.
When the plan administrator is picking the stocks in their “Target Retirement 2055” account, I’d say they have a large amount of control.
Now the S&P 500? Probably no control. But is it truly the S&P 500 or some bull shirt index fund from the 401k provider that’s not 100% following the S&P 500?
In the late 80s and early 90s, all the badly managed companies went bankrupt and convinced business friendly judges to delete pensions, too expensive, you see. This left a lot of boomers and their parents with nothing all of a sudden.
The 401k problem is that you are now responsible for managing things and all the liability that brings. Pensions were managed by professionals.
The 401k replaced the pension. It used to be that a company would pay for your retirement, now you pay for your own by being forced to pay into the stock market, and it doesn’t go nearly as far as the pensions used to. People are working well into their 60s or older, because 401k’s often don’t pay out enough to live on. It’s another way that companies have figured out to avoid having to pay their employees while pumping up the value of the stock market at the same time.
Actually the biggest difference I’ve seen isn’t in effort but ability. I work with everyone from Boomers to Gen Z and by far my Gen Z coworkers have the hardest time with being given a general task and completing it without detailed instructions. Even with detailed instructions, I often have to repeat the instructions due to mistakes and check my younger colleagues’ work more closely.
I think this is, in part, because Gen Z grew up with things that just worked or that they needed to go to a third party to fix if there were issues. Boomers fixed their own cars and did a lot of DIY home repair, Gen X and Millenials both learned to navigate computers and the internet before there were any real instructional guides or helpful UIs. Shit, we used to program games on our calculators for fun. I think many in Gen Z just never had that because many of those DIY elements require proprietary tools now. A smartphone just works and is designed to be so intuitive a baby can figure it out. It’s not their fault, but it does mean that some critical thinking skills are absent because they’re used to outsourcing the solutions to those problems.
But, again, I have never perceived that they’re not hard workers. On the contrary, I’d argue my Gen Z coworkers, when they’re on their game, are way more efficient than everyone else and definitely work smarter, not harder, which I try to learn from them.
I manage teams at a university. Gen Z types tend to be very motivated but won’t easily do useless busy work just cuz you think they should. You need to motivate them. That’s the boss’ job, though.
The real problem was the previous generations who happily devoted themselves to their bosses getting richer.
That’s pretty true of every generation. If you give anyone a seemingly boring task with no explanation why it matters, they’re going to suck at it. What I’m saying is I can’t give my Gen Z coworkers an open ended task without detailed instructions, even when I explain why it’s important.
Man, I barely graduated from high school because I saw the entire thing as busy work.
My grade in any class was dependant on how much the tests were weighed versus any class or homework. Sleeping or reading through class was my usual.
Now that I’m older I see the value in building the discipline needed to do that sort of busy work because if I don’t my house falls apart and such, so there’s that.
I wish it didn’t take me so long to learn it though.
The other half that a lot of kids (me included when I was younger) miss is the stuff that seems useless is still building a base of knowledge and shaping how you think critically. Just knowing more stuff allows you to connect more things in your head, enabling you to problem solve in completely unrelated areas better. It’s not obvious how helpful that knowledge foundation is until you have more life experience.
And hey, at least you got the discipline now.
I’m a millennial too, and I see some of this but it only seems to be some industries. I’m a programmer and my coworkers are like 90% about “the grindset”, but people I meet who are in health and wellness are 90% the other way. I also feel like cities and large metros tend to be more focused on work, and less urban areas are more focused on living.
I would say a lot of millenials are this way too, and it’s not fair to say it’s just a gem z thing, but it’s far from the majority… At least around me. There seem to at least be pockets of it, but overall I feel like it’s closer to 20%.
With gen z, I feel like the people are way more heavily skewed the other way. I’ve had gen z general contractors and such just cut the bullshit, tell it like it is, and show that they value ME more than THEIR BOSS. It seems much more universal in their generation.
But that’s just my experience. I dunno which is more universal.
So you’re saying that Gen Z just lay the truth out and finish their statement with “no cap”?
It’s a gradient.
Half of genx too but nobody ever mentions us.
As a millennial: I think it’s the dichotomy between “I play the game even though I hate it because it genuinely feels like the only viable option to have a remotely satisfying life” and “fuck the game”.
As an older Gen Z I concur. Even those of us who aren’t completely fucked are extremely anti-corporate with little loyalty to any job. There’s a guy named Jordan Howlett who I feel sums up the average Gen Z attitude towards all the bullshit in the world really well.
Don’t get me wrong I still work hard and try to do well at my job, but the second I hit my time for the day I’m gone. Work is strictly transactional. No one expects their employer to give them money for time they didn’t work, so I ain’t about to give my employer time for money they didn’t give me. They’ll also fire my ass the second they need a stock bump, so I’ll be damned if I’m gonna stick around if I find something better.
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My mom can see the corruption with modern work culture and she’s Gen X and knows the same reasons I do as to why people don’t want to work. I think Gen Z, Millenials and Gen X are starting to stand up to the Boomers shitty work culture. We just want to be treated with kindness and have a good work environment how hard is that?
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from a “future of work expert”
A guy from my wife’s age group is a federal government advisor regarding future of work. He has never worked a day in a proper job at a company. Only academics and politics.
To me it reeked more of tv expertness than anything else. Usually real academics are tamer in their assertions and have pretty solid conclusions.
My stepfather worked his entire life like a goddamn donkey. Even when he was supposed to be on pension his old boss still called him and he actually went and worked for him for free. Today, he’s practically crippled from all the physical strain he put his body though. His ex-boss, meanwhile, is rich as fuck and doesn’t give a fuck, while my stepfather has the absolute minimum pension and no healthcare.
My grandparents, on the other hand, had a very different story. My grandfather worked for the same employer for 50+ years, never missed a day, and had a decent wage AND a pension which he could access at 55 years of age. They were the last generation to receive their part of the social contract, but the generation of my parents and myself are completely missing out.
Small wonder that the young’uns have eyes in their heads and the werewithal to say “No way, not for me!”.
we are the dividends
