The only technology that should be on that list, since using it would enable all the others to thrive: UwU hungry guillotine
Sure, and then what? If we keep the systems around that created this situation in the first place, we’ll end up back where we started, just with new rich people.
Just to pick out the example of veganism: If all rich people are dead, but the masses still want cheap meat every single day, they WILL definitely reinvent factory farming, with all it’s horrible environmental and ethical consequences.
It hungers for the blood of the investors
This kind of comment always makes me a little anxious, lol. Technically, I’m one of the investors due to the stock shares in my 401k.
Everyone loves to rail against the billionaires, but in the event of a revolution, I’m afraid that I’d be up against the wall as a mere “thousandaire”.
The people who make those kinds of comments are the ones that weren’t paying attention in history class.
Me, I’m just thinking about people whose fortune is able to change the world, like billionaires because you need a hundred millionares to do what one billionaire can do without effort
The math doesn’t check out.
I wasn’t talking about their capital in its entirety. For a billionaire, a hundred million is just 10% of their wealth whereas it would take a hundred millionaires to achieve that amount of money.
If you want more comparisons, I saw this page a while back: https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
If you think your 401k makes you one of the investor being discussed, you are very confused. Your 0.000001% of total capital investment puts you very very far down the guillotine line.
Oh, I don’t think I’m being targeted by the rhetoric. What I do worry about is anger at the billionaires being redirected at “all rich people” where the bar for “rich” is merely “owns a house”. Angry mobs have a way of getting out of hand in spite of any logical arguments why you shouldn’t need to worry.
Is it the 401k or the home ownership? Shifting the goal posts is highly suspect that you are in the wrong side of this issue. Those siding with the rich are worthy of the angry mob’s wrath, in my opinion.
Accusing me of “shifting the goalposts” is really shitty. I’m not making some grand political argument here, lol, I’m just vaguely musing about my prospects if we have a “cultural revolution” style upheaval here.
none of these are the solution. Nuclear is the solution.
These are all part of the solution. There is no magic bullet.
There is no solution beyond an immediate return to abject poverty for 99.9% of the population.
The house is burning down around us. All the squirt guns you can muster aren’t going to put the fire out. The only thing left to do is try to survive in a burning house.
How about corporate, political, and economic accountability?
We can throw the transgressors into the nuclear reactor, two mutated birds, one stone, so to speak
Who do we throw into the reactor when the majority of people DEMAND something that is only possible with massive destruction of nature, horrendous waste of resources and horrible immoral practices?
If we kill all the “evil” factory farm owners, but still demand cheap meat every day, we’ll end up reinventing that same horrible system.
I feel like my girl just called me out in front of all the homies, but you’re right
For a second I read that as “We can throw the transgenders into the nuclear reactor” and I was like, “Whoa whoa whoa, I think you’re at the wrong part of the internet, friend!”
Liquid thorium is pretty cool. (Also nuclear but even lesser known.
Veganism isn’t better for the environment than significantly reducing the total amount of consumed meat. Animals play an important, difficult-to-replace role in making agriculture sustainable. Animals can be herded on land that’s difficult to farm on, animals can consume parts of farmed plants that humans cannot, and animals produce products that humans cannot replicate without significantly more work.
Edit: I see a bunch of vegans who aren’t really engaging with the argument. To be clear, anyone who makes statements about how things are right now to try to disprove this is probably arguing in bad faith. I’m not responding to comments anymore because, while it’s entirely possible that I’m wrong, y’all aren’t making any good points.
Furthermore, I’m not anti-vegan, but now I’m tempted to be. So many people I’ve engaged with have displayed all of the worst vegan stereotypes I’ve heard about. I’ve always assumed it was chuds making shit up, but no I just hadn’t met any of the terminally online creeps in the vegan community yet OMFG.
Sir you forget that in China there are pig condos
We don’t need animals to consume plants we can’t, because plant food is soooo goddamn more efficient on every metric. We can drastically reduce land, water and energy usage AND still feed way more people with plant foods. We simply do not need to eat animals.
Any form of “sustainable” animal farming I’ve read up on end up being still less resource efficient than plant foods, AND obviously massively reduced output. So we’re truly talking about vegan vs. an ounce of meat a week. That’s not a difference worth defending, considering the other obvious ethical issues.
Finally, why do you feel that it’s important to argue for “99%” veganism? Do you genuinely believe people don’t understand that less is better, but none is best? Do you apply the same argument to other ethical issues, like feminism? Being 99% feminist is a big improvement, but constantly arguing for it in favor of feminism (aka 100%) would obviously look ridiculous. Finally, don’t you realize the humongous difference between “we should abuse animals for our pleasure less” vs. “we shouldn’t do that”? A whole class of racism disappears if we get rid of the association between “animal” and “lesser moral consideration”.
Have fun eating grass, drinking nonpotable water and eating roots and stalks and rotting vegetables…you militant vegans are hilarious.
Yes because calling out the bullshit is a strawman, you might wanna go read your own links lol.
See above.
Yes you really told me, damn…thanks for the discussion you’ve changed my mind.
If you were open for a discussion and for the possibility to change your views, you wouldn’t have used bogus arguments. I just wanted to point those out, as it is probably meaningless to waste my time in a discussion with you anyway.
why do you feel that it’s important to argue for “99%” veganism
This argument relies on false assumptions about my ethics and an incorrect representation of my position. First: I don’t want to reduce meat consumption/production by any specific ammount; I am currently unconvinced that removing domestic animals from food production entirely is maximally efficient, but think it’s clear that the current ammount of meat is unsustainable and thus must be reduced by some ammount that is currently unknown to me. Furthermore, I don’t believe that all living things qualify as “people” for moral considerations. Since I do not believe all living things are people unless proven otherwise, why should I consider all animals as people unless proven otherwise? There are certain animals that I consider to be people and thus give moral consideration equal to humans such as certain species of corvid, dolphins, elephants, and octopi which have demonstrated traits that make me believe they should qualify. In order to convince me, you need to either provide me an alternative definition of a person and demonstrate why it’s superior or to show me that all animals fit into my definition of person.
Edit: forgot to mention your other argument, but simply put it’s also off the mark. While I agree that eating plants directly is more efficient, that doesn’t address the thesis of my argument. So long as there exists circumstances such that we produce plant matter (as a waste product) that an animal can consume and humans do not in quantities sufficient to feed a stock of animals of some size including those animals in food production and feeding them the plant matter is more efficient than throwing away that plant matter. Your argument needs to be more robust.
Most of the vegan food we grow is fed to animals, so we can eat them. Feeding and housing animals for food consumption purposes requires 83% of our total farmland, but produces only 18% of our calorific intake.
If the world went vegan, we’d only use 25% of the farm land we currently do, meaning we don’t need to use that “difficult to farm” land.
Unfortunately there is literally no valid argument against veganism. If there were, I wouldn’t be vegan.
I don’t really care. Abusing (using) animals for food and work is cruel anyway, if me not doing that because I think it’s wrong is good for the environment, great! If it’s not, fine, but it’s not why I do it.
That’s the thing. Ethics and impact on the environment can be two different things. If you decide to go that way, you’re fine. Do it. However we need animals for stated reasons. We have to eat less meat/generally consume less animal products.
No, animal captivity, exploitation, rape, slaughter, and consumption are all things that are very much unnecessary, and are detrimental in many ways.
We also need to stop overproducing everything. America makes far too much corn, because/and the industry is heavily subsidized.
The amount of food waste in North America is astounding. Completely unnecessary.
Yup… I want those subsidies to shift to hemp production. So many far more useful products that will be able to be produced rather than food processors playing hide the corn. It is a drop in replacement for the ethanol in gas since the seeds are 30% oil.
But we don’t produce hemp, and megacorps go… Here’s another ethane cracker plant.
True. That’s the same with everything. As long as it is worth to produce stuff just to throw it away we will damage our planet more and more.
We do that so you can go to the store and actually find food. It’s so we don’t have another famine…has nothing to do with anything else you’re trying to point out.
You have zero idea what you are talking about.
Yea totally, no clue what I’m talking about at all, just own a farm and understand our food economy…but nope no clue.
So you’re telling me the government uses tax payer money to prop up your farm so that… we can actually find the food at the grocery stores?
And then with all that extra corn that you’re producing they have to find a myriad of other uses (like the syrup that making the entire country obese, for one)?
So clearly you’re way more enlightened on the subject since you own a farm, so why don’t you tell the class why subsidizing an unnecessarily oversized industry is a good thing.
Don’t shy away from this. You’re the expert.
I disagree that raising and keeping animals because we want their products or labor is cruel, and I especially disagree that referring to that as abuse is useful.
What standard of cruelty and ethical framework are you using to come to your conclusion?
Edit: as stated in my other comment, I don’t believe that it’s cruel in principle; I’m not denying that the industry has cruel practices.
It may not be cruel in principle, but it is usually cruel in practice. Still, I like the the guiding principle to try to not let minor benefits to myself (e.g. an easier way to a nice meal) go above vital benefits of other creatures.
I was speaking in terms of principles rather than discussing practical reality. Of course cruel practices are common in farming in general and the meat industry in particular; I’m not disputing that.
Edit: Why TF am I being downvoted?
How is it not cruel?
I’m not watching a vegan shock video.
If you disagree with me, you should be able to put in to words why you believe all instances (real and hypothetical) of keeping animals for the stated reasons should be considered cruel. If what I said is a strawman of your position, then you don’t disagree with what I meant to say.
It’s because fundamentally you are still commodifying whole living, thinking beings who have their own wills and lives they want to live. We need to reckon with the fact that it is unjust for us humans to think we have any right to declare other species of animals as property.
Ethical emotivism. A framework most people use, although few admit it.
Ethical emotivism isn’t a self-consistent ethical framework. It’s arguably not even an ethics system; it’s a philosophical attitude towards ethics as a field of study.
Veganism is good for climate, biodiversity, health and animal welfare. We really don’t need to eat animals or animal products to have good meal and live a happy life. The good thing is that humans are omnivores, with a free choice of what to eat. Please choose wisely, not only for your own mental and physical health, but also for others, living now as well as in years to come.
Not everyone can eat a pure vegan diet. We are omnivores. We don’t get to pick, we must eat it all to stay healthy.
Everyone needs nutrients they can digest. The source doesn’t matter under these conditions. Excluding rare medical cases, everyone can get all required nutrients from non-animal sources, ergo everyone can have and live a perfectly healthy life on a vegan diet.
Meat has more than just protein. It has so many micronutrients that your body needs that you would have to take a shit ton of supplements to just come close to it. Sure, you can survive without those micronutrients. But why go through all the trouble?
that you would have to take a shit ton of supplements to just come close to it
If you would’ve taken a dive into healthy vegan diets, you would know that this isn’t true.
But why go through all the trouble?
I thought we already established that in the comments here.
I don’t understand veganism enough to speak about it and don’t care enough to look into it. I’ll take your word for it though.
Meat production is in the single digits in actual global pollution. The problem isn’t our diet. The problem is the fossil fuel industry which contributes to 79+% of the world’s pollution. If I had a light switch that can turn off all meat production, nothing would change. If I did the same for fossil fuels, it would instantly stop climate change.
Focus on who the enemy is here. It’s not us, the people. It’s the fossil fuel industry. Demand change from your government. We need clean energy from things like nuclear, solar, wind and whatever new innovation comes from government investments.
So do it. While some people would argue vefpganism is ideal, the important part is “less meat”, especially less beef. I’d give kudos to anyone who eats one less beef meal per week: chicken is much easier in the environment than beef, or ne less meat meal,
The word Ideal is very generic. Ideal to who? What is ideal? Your health? The climate? Your bowel movement?
Meat contributes a ton of CO2. 15% of global output in just beef alone. Pork and Chicken is better.
Instead of pickering over words we could just acknowledge the underlying facts.
Those who can, and most people in western industrialized countries can, should reduce their meat consumption. For most of them veganism is a viable option, especially as there is easy access to doctors checking as well as supplements if there is difficulties.
There is no intrinsic need for animal protein or fats for a healthy diet.
The reduction of meat or even the total mandatory switch to all vegan diet won’t stop climate change since it’s such a small % in the total carbon footprint compared to our energy needs.
Your tribalism thoughts should be better focused on things like our need for clean energy like nuclear and solar.
I am neither vegan nor vegetarian, nor do i propose a mandatory switch to such diets. I also don’t mind people who primarily eat meat, as they are still traditional herders or hunters like in Central Asia or parts of Africa. But you know what these people don’t do? Fly on vacation twice a year, go on cruises, drive 20.000 km or more a year, consume 5 MWh of electricity per person and year…
The current way of animal farming with the current meat consumption results in about 10-17% of global GHG emissions. That is about the same emissions like all road traffic.
And unlike cars, where you could reduce the emissions effectively by using EVs, you simply cannot change a cow from emititting substantial amounts of methane, and the effects of the land conversion necessary for it’s feed.
Finally the argument, that X source of emission would be irrelevant to target since it is so small on the global scale is the prime whataboutism argument to not adress any emissions. “Oh our country is only making 1% of global emissions, we don’t have to change.” “Oh our industry could cut emissions in half in three years, but what about the other industry?”
People in western countries eat way too much meat. Any reduction to that is good, be it by reducing your meat consumption significantly or by switching to a vegetarian or vegan diet.
Lookup veganic farming, and veganic permaculture. The idea that animal ag has any place in combating global warming is demonstrably false, and was nothing more than a greenwashed hijacking of the other various regenerative agricultural movements. There is no room in neither a just world, or a sustainable one, for the exploitation and consumption of animals.
Yes, we need to significantly reduce the amount of consumed meat (maybe not insects, if we consider them meat). A step towards more vegan and vegetarian food would definitely be necessary. Yes, not everyone needs to be vegan. But we need to consume way more vegan and vegetarian food.
Insects are meat. Why are you so keen on eating bugs?
There is a general consensus that insects are not considered equal in terms of animal cruelty like mammals, as they have much smaller and simpler nerve systems.
In regards to ecological imprint insects have a much better feed to food ratio and you can feed them much more things than to grazing animals.
I agree that insects are generally less ethically significant than mammals, but as far as using English food category words I don’t see how it’s useful to draw a hard distinction between the category of “meat” and the category of “insects who’s bodies can be cooked and eaten”.
The reason I asked the question is that I noticed they made multiple comments about eating insects and I was curious as to the motivations behind their position.
In vegan communities insects are very much extended the same moral considerations as other animals. What you’re advocating is a form of speciesism, which is something better avoided as much as possible.
Anti-specieism is an argument often brought by vegan fascists, arguing that killing humans is no worse than killing mosquitos.
Also the concept of avoiding specieism fails the moment you look into nature. Is the cat that eats a mouse a speciest? Should you let mosquitos bite you and transmit diseases because killing them would be speciest? Are the farmers in Southern Africa that are plagued by locusts speciest for trying to protect their harvest?
Probably you would consider these examples as legitimate. But what about the building of the house you reside in? The production of your electronics, your energy usage…
It is impossible to make a consistent value frame of what is acceptable killing of animals and what isn’t, if you deem an individual fly as equally protectworthy as a sheep or a human.
Vegan fascists? The people who are trying to put an end to the forced captivity, continuous torture, rape, exploitation, commodification, and perpetual holocaust-levels of slaughter of virtually every species of animal that is not human, are fascists?
Here’s the most commonly accepted definition of veganism:
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”"
Emphasis added. The vast majority of vegans do not believe that killing a mosquito is exactly equivalent to killing a human, and even of the people who do, it’s intended to imply that all species lives are important, that the mosquito’s life is seen as equally valuable to the human’s. The only reason such a proposition seems abhorrent to you is because you’re looking at the mosquito through the lens of your carnist supremacist mindset, which is to see the mosquito as something worthless and thus conclude that a human’s life is considered by vegans to be equally worthless.
But again, like everyone else vegans take anti-speciesism only as far as is practical. We just do it better. The mosquito bite is easy. If you know mosquitos are around, it’s wise to wear repellent, and take other appropriate precautions depending on your circumstances. Maybe modify your environment if possible to be less of a breeding ground for them, if it’s bad enough. If you’re dealing with a particular mosquito, odds are they have already bitten you, so how is the lethal carnist reaction any more protective against a disease that may have already been transmitted, than simply blowing on the mosquito to get them to fly away?
Locust infestations happen because of shitty agricultural practices. If you’ve got a plot of land that’s full of nothing but copies of one tantalizing crop, then of course it’s going to be an obvious buffet for a vast amount of insects. Are veganic farming or veganic permaculture methods extreme? Or is it more extreme that our most common monocultural methods of farming are causing so much pollution that it’s bringing so many vital pollinators to the brink of extinction?
You make the same erroneous argument that many other carnists make, which is the idea that because vegan values can’t always be practiced perfectly, that somehow automatically means the entire ethical framework is without merit. But that’s obviously nonsensical. To the individual mosquito or mouse, it makes all the difference in their entire little lives, whether they incidentally pestered a vegan or carnist. It’s been estimated that a single vegan living their values results in about 200 fewer livestock animals being slaughtered every year. Is it extreme to live in a way that would end factory farms forever if we all embraced it, or what about the lifestyle that created them in the first place?
Nearly every half-baked gotcha that carnists try to catch vegans in has a common-sense practical answer. The example of predation in wild areas is a point of contention in vegan communities, whether we should intervene or not and ultimately make rather significant changes to the natural world, but presently it doesn’t really matter, because there are so many other obvious abuses that need to end.
Veganism only looks extreme from the deluded perspective of carnism. But in reality going vegan is like becoming sober, and recognizing how disturbing it was to live the way that so many continue to.
Vegan fascists? The people who are trying to put an end to the forced captivity, continu…
Those guys:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/evb4zw/why-so-many-white-supremacists-are-into-veganism
And those guys (German Article):
https://www.belltower.news/vegane-nazis-wie-rechstextreme-mit-ihre-ernaehrung-ideologisieren-91901/
I’m not keen on eating bugs, most of them just are similar in environmental damage as vegan food. Insects are also already in almost all processed foods because they are small and almost everywhere. They just don’t fall in the same category as what we in the western civilization typically consider meat (as a food).
Well lobster tastes pretty good so I’m pretty hopeful about the land bugs.
I actually don’t like lobster (I prefer the meatless versions) but that’s a fair point.
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Veganism isn’t inherently better for the environment. You’re looking for sustainable agriculture. End goal would be a hydroponic grow tower, powered by renewables. Perfect growing conditions year round with little to no runoff. Doesn’t work for all crops currently, and takes a ton of power to operate, though.
Veganism IS inherently better for the environment. If everyone went vegan right now, the agricultural industry would use only 25% of the land, and global emissions would reduce by 20-25%.
Not to mention the animals!
Ah, I see I didn’t say the silent part out loud. I didn’t mention animals specifically because meat production is stupidly bad for the environment, so incorrectly assumed that was a given. I was specifically saying veganism isn’t inherently better than a vegetarian diet, not eliminating technical animal by-product like honey. I suppose there isn’t a term for “things that vegans won’t eat because technically an animal by-product, but still not terribly bad for the environment, at least not any worst than growing other vegetables on an induatrial scale”. Think things like cricket flour. Not vegan, but not ecologically bad either.
A vegetarian society would be almost worse for the environment unfortunately. Without grinding up male chickens (unneeded for egg production), and without killing male cows at 1 year for meat (unneeded for milk production), we’d be subject to feeding these animals for their whole life rather than what their carcass can provide at young ages. Plus with specific honey bee populations taking pollen away from local indigenous bees, we could see species wiped out in pursuit of it. It’s best for the environment to just stop eating what comes out of animals, and starting eating what we feed to them instead.
Of course, I see your point, and I see the disconnect we have here! To simplify my stance, I wouldn’t want to rule out animal by-products as a food category, as those can be valuable calories to people in places where farming might not be feasible for all their nutrition needs. That said, and to your point, traditional animal by-product might not be included. As you mentioned, industrial egg production, milk production, or honey production (in places that don’t naturally support honeybees) are not likely candidates for sustainable food sources.
We have the technologies. The list goes on and on and on. We just need to employ them instead of waiting further for magical fixes.
Posting and liking memes is great, but real change comes from actions. If you are as concerned as we are about climate change, please consider joining or supporting climate activists near you.
I mean, some breakthroughs with large battery tech would be nice to really take advantage of solar and wind.
We’re pretty much there on flow batteries and a few others. The nice thing about grid storage is that kwh per kg is far less important than it is for EVs. That opens up a ton of other options.
Pretty much just need mass production at this point.
Has someone already produced a large-scale long-duration flow battery, like something that can handle a moderate energy grid?
I haven’t been following the tech very closely.
Oh cool, hadn’t heard about this facility. Thanks!
We don’t need new technologies to overcome the issue of global warming itself; we need them to overcome the issue of human nature. People (in the population level sense, not individually) are not good at long term thinking. Solving global warming with current technologies will require a change in lifestyle from just about everyone. It’s the kind of change that will have no perceivable reward to most people. That’s why a lot of those solutions like biking, veganism, etc, will never catch on.
I think biking has a much higher chance; improved fitness and health, and improved mental health from increased activity and time outdoors are tangible benefits people would notice in a not too short amount of time.
Not to mention the money you save by not having to fuel up a vehicle. Gas is very expensive where I live. (1.50$/L in Canada atm)
I am vegan btw but the amount of people who say apathetic shit like ‘one person can’t make a difference, it’s all the corporations fault, wah’ is honestly depressing. We get the society we ask for and until people start asking for something different nothing changes.
I have a super mixed reaction here. On one hand, it’s a good attitude as an individual to do what you can. OTOH, is it apathetic to realize that one billionaire’s private jet adds more pollution than a thousand vegans can offset by being parsimonious with their consumption?
To keep a livable Earth, we need high-level systemic change to move the needle on that dial, not just a few thousand people making extreme sacrifices (tradeoffs? I shouldn’t talk about being vegan as a sacrifice, lol) in lifestyle.
Edit: I’m thinking partly of celebrities booking commercial flights instead of flying private jets, but I’m also thinking about multinational corporations doing stupid things. CVS printing mile-long receipts, Amazon (or others) shipping tiny things in ginormous boxes, or hey, the expectation that every product on a retail shelf must be shrink-wrapped.
You have to think practically: When has systemic change ever happened without individuals choosing to make a change? Never!
It’s the same for voting, or boycotting or unionizing or even guillotining. The french kings head didn’t spontaneously fall off, it involved many individuals making a choice, risking their life and even dieing.
Yes, that’s true. I do think we need a two-pronged approach: On the individual level, do what you can. Every little bit helps.
On the systemic level, lobby for some meaningful reforms.
But in the meantime, I think it’s rather grotesque to fantasize about murdering people. Guillotine parties have ways of spiraling out of control.
You’re right, the effects of individuals or even a decent sized group often pale in comparison to the effects of large scale corporations. And, I guess this is where my views probably differ from a lot of people’s, I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to not do the right thing as an individual, or at least attempt to.
I saw some Swifties do the math on how many of them going vegan it would take to offset her private jet emissions and I have no idea on the accuracy of this and honestly the whole thing sounds silly to me but it was like 70,000. That probably sounds discouraging to a lot of people but to me it’s just like small differences add up.
And I think 70,000 voices are a lot easier for a government or corporation to hear. Think of it as votes and suddenly it sounds like a pretty big deal. Big systemic changes come from lots of people rejecting the status quo, and I’d rather be one of the people rejecting it, you know?
On the human level, people won’t as capitalism is so deeply ingrained in our culture, do you drive? Stop driving you can’t because you have work that’s in the next town over? Get a job that’s closer? Stop buying non seasonal goods from your local supermarket? Stop buying random shit with air miles on it.
We can all make these changes but people won’t because our monkey brains seek the fastest root to serotonin therefore government must harshly regulate at the corporate level. Build infrastructure at the civil level.
“Harshly regulate” indeed. Governments the world over subsidise fossil fuel and multinational corpos. If they just redirected that investment towards local business and low-carbon energy and transport, we’d have a lot more carrot than stick to drive change.
A world where everyone does the best they can to avoid and/or fight against bad systems is absolutely the ONLY POSSIBLE WORLD where positive change can happen.
How else would the world change if not through individuals choosing to do the right thing? Are really expecting the same people that have fucked us(rich/politicians) to spontaneously develop a conscience and change the world out of the goodness of their hearts?
Before you bring up guillotines, those ALSO require individuals to make personal choices and changes and take risks.
Have you spoken to people in your life/work about this. Words are cheap and most people will agree but they still continue to buy from Amazon, they still shop from food places that import foods, they still buy the newest cars.
But you are right that social change isn’t impossible and more and more people are becoming aware that they must make personal change.
I disagree that politicians are incapable of doing good, I’m not in america so things are different not to say they’re all good but there are MPs that try like my local, she’s helping me in setting up community gardens.
I agree, and I think you’re even perhaps being a bit harsh, people can do things, but a lot of the time it’s so impractical as to not be worth considering. In a car based society it can be almost impossible to forego a car. And I certainly don’t blame anyone for doing what they need to survive or even just live comfortably.
The only thing I have an issue with is people who otherwise could, choosing inaction because ‘corporations’. Corporations are almost 100% to blame, political parties being able to take bribes/donations is one of the biggest failings of modern society and has led to so much harm it’s almost unfathomable. But I still don’t accept that as an excuse to do nothing, corporations and politicians aren’t going to change otherwise.
100%, I don’t blame the person I blame the society and the one where in focuses on importing foods and goods, chewing through fossil fuels, and we don’t get to choose where our energy comes from, we don’t get to choose where our foods come from. Company’s even set up campaigns to put the blame on the users like carbon foot print was made by shell to shift the blame to the consumer.
They also only ever believe that when it’s about work THEY have to do. If it’s about other people, or it’s about things that directly affects them, the tune suddenly changes.
I can’t, as an individual, end rape culture. Is that therefore an excuse to keep making rape jokes, defending rapists etc.? Obviously not, but by the logic of “people against individual change” it’s entirely logically consistent. As long as I say “rape culture bad”, I can keep supporting it. I just have to wait for magical “systemic change without individual change” to rain down from heaven.
We have seen, that people and societies are extremely adaptable to changes in lifestyle. The transformation of the Netherlands to a cycling -friendly country for example. Car free city centers. People were very opposed to them before. But once the changes were made, people were happy with them and adapted to the new options. There’s also negative examples where people adapted to new negative lifestyles such as car centric cities. Or smog, pollution, garbage landfills, or rivers that one is not allowed to swim in due to pollution. People are surprisingly adaptable to new conditions. We just have to do it.
So true. Systematic problems require systematic solutions
Thanks!
Trains are based. Fight me car stans
“No not that! I want to do EXACTLY as I did before but YOU do something about it. Can’t you like build a technology to suck the CO2 out of the atmosphere or something?”
Can we trail like monkeys to pick up trash?
It’s more a problem of all the human people want to live good lives, look at how many threads on the front page are talking about cost of living crisis and etc as serious social problems which need to be fixed - there’s a thread where everyone says we should all be in walking distance to all key amenities, I bet they all think that the average persons wage should be able to afford to enjoy those things regularly too and have access to healthy fresh food, good clothes, etc etc
The world people want where everyone has access to a good life has never existed, even in America there is still generational and regional poverty but globally it’s much more intense - it would be very unfair to say ‘sorry we’re not going to try and continue progress so you can live the same life I do, we’re actually going back so you get less and work harder - it’s not because further progress is impossible or anything but I personally don’t really like new technology so, well, sucks to be you I guess.’
The technology which you’re talking about carbon capture is an incredibly good technology and just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist. It’s not a magic wand of course but no one said it is, the uses with SAF and bioavailable carbon for example open up a lot of possibilities not just in rich nations but actually more so in developing nations allowing growth without oil infrastructure.
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The problem with carbon capture is it’s not pulling anywhere near the amount of carbon from the air as needed and it’s currently very expensive. And it’s an easy out for politicians. A lot of the plans seem to be “we’ll do the easy stuff to reduce CO2 emissions, so how much more is the net emissions come to? Ok then we will do that much carbon capture… someday… somehow…”
And a good amount of it is pumping CO2 into oil wells… to extract more oil.
We really don’t know how well carbon capture will work on the large scales needed to balance the books on the “easy mode” net zero policies. Given how expensive it is, is it the most economically viable solution?
Sure the cost may decrease… but by how much?
A lot of question marks with it in terms of economic viability.
I do think it’s needed but I’d prefer it being something that’s just used for fuel that’s extremely difficult to replace, like fuel for airplanes. It seems feasible to tack on a big enough carbon tax on jet fuel to cover the cost of the carbon capture of that fuel. Sure airline travel will get more expensive, but that should be fine. But the level of carbon tax needed to cover the costs for ground transport using fossil fuels seems like it would be prohibitive.
What is the point of what you wrote?
“Veganism”
Let’s reign that in just a bit to Vegetarian for now. Incremental steps.
You can totally incrementally step towards veganism. That doesn’t mean that veganism isn’t the correct end goal.
I think Veganism is just silly though. To completely disregard animal husbandry, forgo chickens laying eggs, cows making milk, all the things animals produce just seems like purposefully hindering ourselves when we still haven’t figured out how to feed everyone.
Start by replacing meat so we don’t needlessly slaughter animals, sure, got me there, but I can’t understand veganism as a practical solution to anything. It’ll help climate change, sure, but it won’t significantly impact it enough to solve it and we have better alternatives to doing that.
Veganism can not only help with climate change, but also total land use, species extinction, deforestation, ocean eutrophication, antibiotic resistant bacteria, zoonotic diseases and soil erosion. Also, keep in mind that over 90% of worldwide livestock and 99% in the US are factory farmed. And we still needlessly slaughter egg-laying chickens and dairy cows once they’ve been overworked to the point of no longer being profitable enough to keep alive.
I get your perspective on it and if we had 1:1 alternatives for all these products like we’ve done with Beyond meat or Impossible burger I’d probably be more willing to consider Veganism, but I also think that chicken and cows who can no longer produce should be turned into food. I get that the idea of ending a life short isn’t morally appealing especially when I just pointed to plant based replacements but in the interest of cheaper and more available food I think it would be more harmful to us (in spite of the issues you listed) than it would be beneficial for the climate.
Veganism can work I just don’t think we have any of the development into replacements that we need to commit to that. Butter, yogurt, dairy as a whole is such a massive industry. Eggs for cakes, butter for baked goods, we’d need to replace all of it and figure out how to keep the things we’ve normalized without destabilizing it all.
Those alternatives exist already. Instead of eggs, you can bake with apple sauce, banana, chia, flax or non dairy yogurt and get great results. Oil and margarine serve great in place of butter. You can make cheese sauce from nuts/cashews and nutritional yeast. Also, depending on where you live, there’s a wealth of commercially produced dairy and egg alternatives.
Just this past week I made amazing blueberry lemon muffins with coconut yoghurt and lemon bars with corn starch in place of eggs.
In terms of price, vegan options can be substantially cheaper than animal products, and if we (in the US anyway) started subsiding vegetables instead of meat and dairy, they could be even cheaper.
I’m curious about your stance. You mentioned it’s needless to kill animals for meat, but you also think we should use animals for milk and eggs and then kill them after they’ve become too exhausted to keep producing?
The morality of raising animals to slaughter them in their prime for meat seems bankrupt at best and repugnant to me personally. An animal that has lived it’s life, produced products for us naturally, and has done so humanely I see no problems with whatsoever. If a bird wants to use the hair I cut off my head for their nest, I wouldn’t consider them morally wrong for using what I produce to benefit themselves.
Animals who get too old and are past their prime will stop producing and are near their natural death. They’ve lived their lives, hopefully in humane conditions, but are on the way out. Using them for meat at this point, to me, feels like giving them one final purpose rather than just allowing them to become fertilizer.
I get that doesn’t sound morally pure and it probably isn’t, but I would rather old animals be turned into food than allow humans to go hungry out of pretentious moral aspirations. If we can afford to be moral we should be but if we can’t, we can’t. I won’t lose sleep knowing a family gets to eat because we didn’t allow that animal to either away naturally.
As far as replacements go, that’s genuinely fantastic. I hope we scale that up and don’t let meat farmers lobby to destroy it. Like I said if we can replace products to the degree we don’t suffer by insisting on morality, we should. Full stop.
I think we have fundamentally different outlooks on animal agriculture. It seems like your position is based on the idea that animals used for milk and eggs are treated well, live long natural lives and are killed at the end of their lives when they would have died naturally.
An animal that has lived it’s life,
Animals used for milk and egg production live a small percentage of their potential lifespan. The effects on dairy cows of repeatedly being impregnated, giving birth, producing enormous quantities of milk, and going through the cycle again takes a harsh toll on their bodies. It’s normal for a dairy cow to only endure 4 or 5 cycles of this before they literally cannot physically continue, at which point they’re no longer profitable and are sold for slaughter. Similarly for egg-laying hens, the stress and mineral demand of ovulating multiple times a day means that they rarely live past two years. For the males of these breeds, it’s even worse. Male chickens of the egg-laying breeds are mostly useless to the industry, so they are killed immediately after hatching, usually by way of an industrial macerator or gas chamber. Male calves might live to 8 months to be slaughtered for veal, but if there’s no market for veal they are frequently killed immediately after birth.
produced products for us naturally
Modern egg laying chickens and dairy cows are man-made breeds far removed from their natural wild counterparts. Hens trace their lineage to red jungle fowls, who naturally ovulate at a similar rate to humans, about once a month. Selective breeding has increased this amount to once a day, sometimes even more. The extreme pressure on their reproductive system frequently causes health issues like egg yolk peritonitis, cloacal prolapse, and osteoporosis. Similarly with modern dairy cows, bovine mastitis, udder sores and infections are common due to our selective breeding to maximize milk yields. Even otherwise healthy animals face grueling lives because they’re part of a species that was engineered for one purpose: profit.
has done so humanely
Modern animal agriculture is overwhelmingly inhumane, which is why livestock animals are almost always excluded from animal abuse legislation. Ignoring the above points about how they’ve been selectively bred and are worked to exhaustion, investigations into egg and dairy farms have found absolutely shocking treatment. If you have the stomach for it, they’re worth watching to understand the scope of animal abuse that is commonplace in our society.
Plus, they forgot nuclear. Oh, and thoughts and prayers
The difference is nuclear is a good solution.
These are all good solutions, for very different problems, admittedly…
Haven’t met the guy that had his problems solved by thoughts and prayers but I guess it’s possible.
That’s where I was being sarcastic, silly.
Obviously nuclear is a good solution and t&p is meaningless
Oh good, sarcasm on the internet is about as easy to detect as carbon monoxide. I need a meter to send off alarms sometimes.
Ah yes, Vegan, a group of people that believe they are evolving faster than everyone else, but they are blind by choice to the fact that they are evolving backwards.
If you can install toilets, make it entirely and consistently accessible for humans with disabilities, solve people who refuse to shower or understand how headphones are supposed to work you can convince me only then public transit should be considered a usable alternate form of transportation.
So far as I’ve seen the only people who are boasting public transport as a workable alternative never have to spend more than 20 minutes on a single bus to get to where they are going and have full use of their legs.
That’s the part where we are screaming for improved public transportation. Please try to keep up.
Also, and I’m sure you’ve seen it as it’s a popular thing to say now; don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
And Don’t let your fear of feedback and overt ableism be the only inspiration for ideas, lil snowflake.
I do believe you’re the one crying foul right now, not me. You certainly aren’t going to make any friends or allies being this way.
True allies don’t need to be begged. You’re not as nice as you think you are.
You are fucking ridiculous dude. Go back and re-read our interaction. You should be ashamed of yourself.
If this is how you advocate, I wouldn’t want you on my team.
Melt down harder, lil snowflake.
Go back to Reddit, child.
Good job not listing trees. You had one job OP.
“We need new technologies that can be controlled by a megacorporation to make a select few rich, not things that individuals can do or use that can break the hold of existing monopolies”
And thus the shilling for nuclear power began.
nuclear is beyond most private corporations. The profit breav-even is too far into the future for all but governments.
Is nuclear a bad option? Only downsides I’ve heard are basically optics problems. Barring facilities that catastrophically failed on top of horrid safety policy negligence, they seem perfectly suited for baseline power production.
Cost. The reality is nuclear is not just more expensive than every other option, it’s a lot more. I remember seeing something like ten times the cost of solar, per whatever unit of energy
Cost, where we get uranium, how to handle the wastes. And it may fail even more if we fail to cool it down (less water due to Earth warming up)
Thanks for that thought, I was confused who is arguing so much for nuclear that is not solving anything and is too expensive.
Shilling makes a lot of sense, but never came to me.
And downvotes without explanation, even here. I guess normal people are also under influence.
The biggest technology needed is actually excavators so we can dig ditches everywhere to soak up rain water and refill aquifers. Also building retaining walls, terraces and swales using permaculture style water management to reforest degraded grazing lands.
I think we need those excavators do dig our own graves, because this will probably not happen.
Yeah this needed to have started decades ago like when they figured out the model for climate change in the 50s
By “the 50s,” do you mean the 1850s, when Eunice Newton Foote discovered the greenhouse effect, and calculated that CO2 emissions would change the climate? And when John Tyndall published the same thing, because the scientific community ignored her because she was a woman? Yeah, we could have started 170 years ago, but people just aren’t wise enough to do anything about climate change until it’s too late.
Yeah I am only aware of research from the 1950s and 60s but I don’t doubt it is based on a previous hundred years of research
Either way, we’ve had plenty of warning, which is why it’s so maddening.
Even now when climate change has visible effects, we can’t seem to get our shit together and do what we need to for our own sakes
Sure, on board, but we the people would still need to then build a new world with different systems valuing different things. Most of those things are on that list.
Without the individual changing, we’d just end up swapping rich people.
Alright that’s funny XD
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There was lemmy in the 60s? /s
But I do agree if we find some way to deal with the nuclear waste nuclear energy would be perfect. I’m really hopeful for fusion research lately.
TBH, nuclear waste is a political problem, not an engineering one. Finns figured it out, no reason other countries couldn’t.
Fusion of course is better (though some small amount of radioactive waste will still be produced due to neutron activation of the materials used in the equipment), but it seems like it’s been 10 years away for the past 60 years. And we really shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good—we need to phase out fossil fuels yesterday and fission is good enough for answering the needs of the industry; solar and wind is good enough for distributed residential power and also a good choice for poorer countries who lack the knowhow or even stability for safe operation of nuclear.
fusion isn’t gonna happen, how did Finland ‘solve’ nuclear waste?
Apparently ‘solved’ means ‘bury it in an underground vault’. Finland buries their nuclear waste. The U.S. had planned to do the same at Yucca Mountain, but political infighting canceled that plan, IIRC.
Fusion is all but guaranteed to work eventually. If a breakthrough was made today that makes it commercialy viable, it would be ten years before we see a reactor putting power on the grid.
It’s not something we want to hang our hopes on. ITER will probably work if nothing else gets there first, but we need to look at other things long before that comes online. There’s no reason to wait and every reason to go full speed on what we have.
ITER that thing is dead already. 1st estimation : 5 billions. Now : 19 billions. And Russians are involved. Delays are so huge that it will be over before to be born.
Nuclear waste is a largely solved issue. The volume of very radioactive waste is quite small, and safely contained with a variety of solutions.
The issue is not the volume it is the duration.
It’s solved if your government gets off its ass about it. Reprocessing waste for reactors is one of the few places where nuclear makes sense. Way better than burying it for thousands of years.
Otherwise, the economics have ran past it. We have solutions without it; we just need to scale the up. There are a few other niches, like cargo ships, where they make sense. For general power use, no.
Clean Fukushima corium first.
Pretty telling that the main counterpoint is referencing the second biggest nuclear disaster in history that made a staggering zero deaths.
Evacuation did almost 2500 deaths.
Evacuation was due to unwarranted panic as clearly stated by the Japanese government itself and the UN. People with your same mentality and irrational fear caused those deaths.
Tepco didn’t told the true so even a model had failed. You cannot rewrite the story it is done. Check the recent studies and numbers about rising cancers.
Cite these studies. Spoiler: they do not exist.
Your statement about zero death was false. Even the last UNSEAR report is in total contradiction with that (248 occurrences with the word “cancer” in the last one). EU large scale studies about nuclear workers can be found here : https://www.bmj.com/content/382/bmj-2022-074520 I can also provide studies specifically for Fukushima concerning thyroides, lung cancer and diabetic links.
20 years ago a few key technologies were still missing, like grid storage battery technology. But there are multiple promising ways now. Unfortunately lack of massive funding for research and development and patents means we’ll have to wait another 20 years to produce them really cheaply on the free market. Otherwise it would be unfair to the poor inventor! /s
Aren’t flywheel energy storages (invented by James Watt and improved over time) not suitable energy storages for electrical grids?
No, flywheel is not cheap enough and too complicated. Pumped hydro is cheapest, but only available at very few location. Lithium batteries are a waste or misappropriation (lithium should be recycled for mobile use) and there aren’t enough.
The two battery types that seem to work are liquid metal batteries that are made out of dirt cheap and abundant materials (although there might be problems there still), and flow batteries. Kite power also seems to provide more energy for less material costs (no huge foundations and towers needed).
There are also gravity batteries: https://www.euronews.com/green/2024/02/06/this-disused-mine-in-finland-is-being-turned-into-a-gravity-battery-to-store-renewable-ene
The gravity energy system would be able to store 2MW of power and integrate into the local energy grid. … Scientists from the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) found that the world’s abandoned mine shafts could store up to 70TWh of power - roughly the equivalent of global daily electricity consumption.
Also in Finland, but different technology “sand batteries” https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520
Finnish researchers have installed the world’s first fully working “sand battery” which can store green power for months at a time.
The developers say this could solve the problem of year-round supply, a major issue for green energy.
Using low-grade sand, the device is charged up with heat made from cheap electricity from solar or wind. The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive.
While I think there is still no working production model, Iron Salt Batteries are very promising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery
There are different options, not each one is suitable for every place, but seams possible that combination can help us achieve needed reduction in fossil fuel usage when sun is down and no wind.
Thanks for the links, sand sounds interesting. I believe gravity batteries outside of pumped hydro just need too much “structure” to store energy and then just have too little capacity. Unfortunately there is sometimes a little bit too much hype about cool ideas that don’t pan out. There is also an idea I think for an electric train / rail cars full of ballast being driven up a rail on a hill and then moving down to release electricity. Just a lot of effort.
And yeah thermal batteries should solve one of the biggest consumers, heating. Lots of possibilities. Molten salt works also. I think if you just use water to store heat for the winter you need about the size of a big Olympic swimming pool under your house. But with wind instead of solar you don’t even need to store that much.
An important thing I believe is that we have nearly unlimited access to energy with solar and wind turbines / kite power. It requires massive production efforts but you can extract so much energy from sunshine that efficiencies of batteries aren’t even that important. Just that you can use cheap and sustainable materials, can recycle them, and can have enough energy density.
So the possibilities are definitely there, but we really neglected to push R&D and massively fund multiple startups for each technology. And we need to suspend patents or drastically shorten their lifespan to like 4 years or so.
The main grid storage tech I’ve heard about recently relies on decade-old Nissan Leaf EV batteries that can be purchased second hand pretty cheaply (in comparison to brand new cells). Pretty neat way to repurpose them IMO.
It’s profitable, so I’m assuming it should be reasonably affordable for utility companies or local municipalities to build and own grid storage facilities in the near future
