This is the best summary I could come up with:
Ambassador Nikki Haley said Wednesday that frozen embryos created through in-vitro fertilization are “babies,” siding with a recent Alabama Supreme Court decision that raised concerns among doctors and patients about the future of the procedure.
Later on Wednesday, the University of Alabama at Birmingham announced that it was pausing IVF treatments in response to the state Supreme Court ruling.
Asked if legislation and rulings like the one in Alabama could have a chilling effect on families using IVF to become parents, Haley said, “This is one where we need to be incredibly respectful and sensitive about it."
She has repeatedly calling for national “consensus” on abortion in debates instead of the bans and restrictions favored by some of her primary opponents.
As Haley presses her increasingly long-shot bid for the White House against former President Donald Trump, she has warned that ongoing legal proceedings could hamper his electability.
Asked if she could vote for him if he were the nominee and he was convicted of a felony, Haley dodged, saying “those are hypotheticals” and questioning whether Trump would even stay in the 2024 presidential race at that point.
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We are now literally one step from “ovulation is murder.”
That’s not an exaggeration. The only step past “IVF embryos are babies” is “ovulation kills a baby.”
I think they draw the line at fertilization, but everybody does loves to shift their goalposts on the hill they choose to die on.
When have they ever drawn a line?
They draw the line at women having equal rights.
“Fertilization” is a continuum, not a moment in time. I know everyone thinks of that magic moment when the one sperm breaks through the outer membrane, from the video we all watched in 7th grade. But that “moment” could be anytime during a span of days, and there are a hundred “moments” before and after that determine whether the egg will be viable and attach to the uterine wall. And then there are a thousand more moments that determine if the uterus is hospitable and the mother capable of supporting a pregnancy to term. And then there are a million more moments between when the pregnancy begins and the baby is born and separated from the mother. Until that point, objectively, it is not yet an independent person.
It’s not just shifting goalposts. Fertilization is a line in the sand under water. Theoretically, you could say it exists, but you’re going to have to redraw the line every time you try to find it, and it’s gone pretty much as soon as you look away.
Anyone who chooses to die on that hill is a religious fruitcake, devoid of value as a thinking human.
Anyone who chooses to die on that hill is a religious fruitcake, devoid of value as a thinking human.
They are certainly not serious people, but unfortunately that won’t prevent them from passing and executing policy with serious consequences.
Technically, ovulation without fertilization would be the benchmark.
Also, you probably can’t miscarry. Which happens 10-15% of the time on average, and is much higher for some individuals.
These people are out to lunch. How stupid, uneducated, and emotional could someone possibly be?
The only people who are stupider are undecided or non-voters.
The only people who are stupider are undecided or non-voters.
God, tell me about it. I’ve seen so many reactionary takes with what’s going on in Gaza and the US support for it, insisting they’re staying home over it, when if they thought out the problem for like 5 seconds more, they’d realize what absolute children they’re being.
Not only is not voting going to result in America taking a MORE extreme stance on Gaza, but it also invites endless suffering from this and other extremist positions, that will hurt us, our families, and our loved ones. Real fucking strategery there guys. I really hope I’ll have it in me to rub their faces in the inevitable consequences, but realistically I’ll be too much of a shell to care after seeing everyone I love suffer.
Five years from now, red states will have laws that say every woman’s menstrual tissue must be collected for analysis in case the egg was fertilized without implanting. If this happens, she will be charged with murder.
Oh, and women will still need to buy their own menstrual products and pay sales tax on them.
You don’t have to ban menstruation just make it $5000 per tampon
This works in their favor as these pieces of shit also love the prison
slaverylabor system we implement to feed major corporations withslavefree labor.The more ridiculous felonies they can pin on people the more
slavescheap labor they provide.Not to mention the statistic that ~50% of fertilized eggs fail to implant. So getting your period may be evidence of murder.
Probably even higher, closer to 70%, of the time.
Last data I saw was 50, but if it is actually closer to 70 that means it is impossible to kill more babies than God does.
I just went and checked some studies on the matter. 70% of fertilized eggs fail to go to further embryonic stages and 85% of those are because of uterine wall implantation complications. So, the answer is right in between us, it’s 60%.
The cheek cells in spit have a full set of chromosomes and given the right conditions could be turned into a growing embryo. Guess that means dentists are mass murderers now, all those little potential lives going down that suction tube of death.
So no more omelettes for her?
You don’t believe that store bought eggs are actually viable and fertilized, do you?
Free range, some are. Factory made where chickens never see the light of day, no chance. They are fed hormones to keep producing eggs.
everything is a fucking baby nowadays. quick hypothetical: you’re in a burning building, in that building is a single two year old, and a cooler with 10,000 fertilized embryos in it. You can only grab one. Do you rescue the two year old, or 10,000 “babies”? If one embryo = one child then it’s pretty obvious what the right decision is, right?
I just throw the 2 year old in the cooler and run. That should protect them from the fire right?
:P
If you run out with 51% of the 2 year old, that still counts as a baby right?
Some idiot will be asking to tell you about the ship of Theseus any minute now.
Can I tell you about the ship of Theseus?
you need the torso and at least 2 limbs before they’ll let you exchange it for a new one
So should women be considered child murderers when they ovulate and don’t get pregnant?
Fucking stupid.
Do they have social security numbers? Can the hospital claim them as dependents? Can an eighteen-year-old embryo vote?
They’ll recruit the 18 year old embryos into the military.
Can’t wait for all the embryo and ovulation memes on lemmy.
no memes on Lemmy please
So, they are going to count toward tax credits, too…right?
100% yes
Haley, to me, is an idiot.
Sheer insanity.
Someone else came up with this.
Imagine you’re in a clinic. Fire breaks out. You have a choice; save a living baby or 5,000 frozen embryos.
Very simple. The living baby is a piece of shit, we only care about the unborn.
Another mouth to feed in the welfare state bleeding the job-creators dry.
Your sarcasm is drowned by the inadvertent truth (republican-style, that is) in your statement.
Does that baby contribute to the economy?
I would love for someone to ask this to anyone who thinks an egg is a baby.
Having gone through IVF, I 100% thought of those embryos as my babies. But it’s still a pretty easy choice to save the already-born baby.
I don’t know why you’re getting voted down for sharing your experience. That’s not how the voting should work IMHO.
I get that you get an emotional connection and can see them as potential babies, but not real babies right? Aren’t a lot of embryos discarded once the ivf is successful? I haven’t been through one so you tell me. Losing one or more of those would be very VERY less traumatic than losing one of my born kids. At least to me, losing an embryo, or a few thousand wouldn’t even register.
Thanks. I understand the clinical difference between embryos and babies, yes. But emotionally you feel that connection after everything it takes to just have potentially viable embryos.
It’s up to the individuals if they save or discard any unused embryos, if there even are any. It’s pretty crazy how few potentially viable embryos you end with compared to how many were fertilized compared to how many eggs were collected.
It’s months and months of other less invasive options to even get to IVF. And when you do get to IVF it can be months to years of giving your partner hormone injections and constant blood work to have a pregnancy, much less a pregnancy that makes it to full term and live birth. You can go cycles without any viable embryos. Or it can work on the first try. But in either case, it’s already been a huge investment to get there.
So at that point, your emotional attachment is considerably different than for someone whose reproductive experience is simply having sex for a few months or unintentional.
Another factor here is the DNA health of the embryos, the younger you were when the embryos were created the healthier they are. When you’re over 40 there are huge increases of various things like Autism and Down Syndrome. If patients had embryos from before that age but have since passed that age, and the embryos were improperly destroyed, you can’t effectively remediate that with new cycles of treatment.
I don’t agree with the Alabama court’s ruling here, but these patients whose embryos were destroyed deserve restitution.
That’s one of the shitty thing about politics these days, it’s forcing every position into two extremes. Like here. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to consider an embryo to be more than just any other mass of cells, mainly because of the potential it offers. But putting embryos on the same level as children who have already gestated and born seems bonkers to me, because so much development needs to take place and the results are not at all certain.
But anyone who tries to thread that line is going to get skewed by both sides. It’s one thing to get meaningless down votes, of course, but another thing entirely to be a politician whose job it is to make these laws. How far would you go to try to make a sane law when you know neither side will ne happy, so both will work against you?
After the initial downvotes, I appreciate your discourse here. You’re totally right about the extremes. I wholly agree that this was a bad ruling, and the predictable result is already happening. I just wanted to present it’s not unreasonable for someone going through IVF to already think of their embryos as their babies, and that those same people can still rationally see the problems with rulings like this and be pro-choice.
This is the new Republican “trolley problem”.
Republicans
Is the baby a Republican or Democrat?
Hamas.
🎵🎶every sperm is sacred🎵🎶
Better start protesting outside IVF clinics then considering they destroy unused embryos.
You joke, but it sounds like IVF clinics are all but closing down in Alabama because of this ruling. The IVF parents who sued because they accidentally lost embryos have made it so no one can use IVF in the state at all.
Paramecium? Baby.
Amoeba? Baby.
Toxoplasmosis gondii? Believe it or not, also baby.
Hey, we don’t even have to leave humanity.
Cancer? Baby.
In fact…
Embryo:
Cancer:
Second one’s got more cells. That means it’s more of a baby, right?
May I present to you the teratoma?
If you’re feeling brave, go ahead and do an image search. Not only more cells, but things like teeth and hair and bones.
Nice work, god. Great design. Absolute perfection in his image and all that.
Hmm, unique DNA? Check
Living parasitically off of another human being? Check.
Potentially fatal? Check
Yep, cancer is a baby.
Thank you for bringing this into my life
King Gizz is awesome, no clue how they manage to drop banger album after banger album, especially with how many they have.
i love that i found kglw helping this thread.
Hey you fucking self-hating misogynistic dipshit, if “embryos” are the same as “babies” then why the fuck do we have different words to describe them?
Almost like words fucking matter.
Also, if an embryo isn’t born yet, and citizenship is conferred at birth, are they even a citizen? Shouldn’t the Republicans be up in arms about all these protectons for non-citizens?
Bruh. Nothing matters to these charlatans.
