Toyota already admits that they are behind on their battery technology, despite having decades of opportunities to improve and innovate with their hybrid models.
Now they want to double down on their atrophy by effectively throwing their money away instead of investing in the future?
On the surface, this does not sound like a good plan for long term growth and profitability.
Toyota has bet on hydrogen.
Someone will be along in a moment to tell us all about how you can’t store hydrogen. Meanwhile there are eyewatering amounts being invested into water cracking facilities right now.
Check out the map of West aus:
https://www.wa.gov.au/system/files/2023-11/00232_1_hydrogen_projects_oct23_a4_web.pdf
Or 15,000 km2 of solar & wind producing 3.5m tonnes of hydrogen pa:
It takes a lot of hubris to bet against the largest car manufacturer.
Saying that a company convinced a politician that something was a good idea doesn’t make it true. A lot of money has been invested in really stupid things in the past.
Politicians aren’t pouring many billions of taxpayer dollars into these facilities.
Large companies, global consortium size companies, are doing research which is leading them in this direction.
It’s not Toyota execs sitting in a board meeting saying “what can we do to be edgy”, it’s well resourced think-tanks being asked for potential solutions to our energy problems.
Politicians aren’t pouring many billions of taxpayer dollars into these facilities.
Not billions but tens of millions
And over $160 million more(AUD I assume) to other projects
So yea it is pretty heavily government funded
Large companies, global consortium size companies, are doing research which is leading them in this direction.
Again, a lot of money is invested in really stupid things. If you’ve worked in a big company you know that, if you haven’t watch a Thunderf00t video then. I personally was in a meeting several months ago where $500,000+ was spent on a new machine, rather then just extend the meeting for a couple hours and plan the process for how it could be avoided.
The WGEH I linked will cost many billions.
Just because money has been invested in stupid things, does not mean that investing money is evidence of a stupid thing.
Every one of the largest projects in the plan you linked have been significantly (in the cases I linked half or more) funded by the government.
Just because money has been invested in stupid things, does not mean that investing money is evidence of a stupid thing.
No, but it does mean that money being invested doesn’t prove its a smart thing.
Someone told me they bought big into hydrogen powered vehicles. Seems they can’t let it go.
Meanwhile Toyota is giving people $40k to buy their Mirai.
They are giving discounts, not paying people to buy their car. It’s a big difference. Government is also giving subsidies for EVs and corn. Should we say government is paying you to buy corn?
Seems like they know first hand about “wasted investment” then.
Which they seem to have turned into a sunk cost fallacy.
“Well, we’ve proven to ourselves that we’re incapable of investing without it being a sunk cost that we are too petty to let go and will fight tooth and nail to make profitable… So let’s just skip investing in much of anything new ever because we’re nincompoops. If there’s no guaranteed profit, why invest?”
They have just released hydrogen internal combustion engine. This engine can burn gasoline, CNG or hydrogen. So transition with it would be super easy. But world is set on EVs which are not that great and a lot less cleaner than people seem to think. Mining for Lithium is a very chemically dirty process and there’s no abundance of it, especially not enough for everyone to switch to EV. Am thinking they realize this and are jumping over the hurdle early on, but are trying to push hydrogen into spotlight. More production means prices will drop and eventually it would get a lot cleaner to produce it as well.
Hydrogen ICE makes something that was already losing on efficiency even worse. It possibly has some race applications, but probably nothing beyond that.
That’s really not impressive. Lots of people converted their vehicles to run propane or NG during the 70s oil embargo. You can do it with pretty much the exact same piston engine.
BEVs are far better and yes cleaner.
More production means prices will drop and eventually it would get a lot cleaner to produce it as well.
Funny that you think this of hydrogen, but not of batteries. Given that I’ll say cheers.
Batteries are already being developed and advanced. I just don’t see why people think there can only be one technology. Even now we have multiple viable technologies and I see no reason why that can’t keep going on.
In the small chance you’re serious, because production of, transportation of, leakage of, and burning of gas, ng, or propane still pollutes. Hydrogen can technically technically be done cleanly but is still energy intensive, difficult to transport, difficult to store, difficult to distribute, difficult to store again in your car, and leaks along that whole path. It’s really not a good path. And for what purpose? So you can fill up in a few minutes (assuming the nozzle hasn’t frozen from use, look it up), forgetting that most people can charge their ev overnight meaning they start every day with a full tank.
BEVs and clean energy has a far, far easier and simpler path forward. Not to mention the development potential of batteries far exceeds that of hydrogen production (production only because there’s really not much that can be done for other parts).
If you want another solution it’s transit, ebikes, and trains.
I doubt I’m going to respond any further.
But now hydrogen gas stations in California all closed down. So they sorta need to pivit
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You are also missing the fact the Japan’s power grid is in a desperate need of repairs and improvements. Hydrogen won’t fix however it introduces some lower cost temporary fixes that can be quickly implemented. In the long term the correct solution would be to fix the grid but we both know if there’s a cheaper and easier solution what they’ll go with…
Lithium to my knowledge is not as abundant and very hard to recycle. There are a lot of chemical waste in all processes.
It wasn’t very abundant 10 years ago. More deposits have been found, refining and extracting technology has improved and hopefully we will see the first commercial mass produced sodium-based battery this year (not in 25 years like fusion).
Lithium nickel cobalt batteries are still the best for density per kg, but will be reserved for premium cars in the future.
but there is no hydrogen to mine either. Hydrogen is made from fossil fuels too (most of it)
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Important thing is there are multiple ways to produce hydrogen. Cheapest is through methane, but that’s only because methane itself is cheap. There are other methods of producing hydrogen and the more demand there is for it, the cheaper it’ll get. Especially when you consider there won’t OPEC to mess around with prices by rigging production against demand. So it would be smart to focus on fuel source which can be easily produced anywhere and can provide similar performance like current ICEs.
yeah, but we urgently need that huge amount of renewable energy elsewhere.
Yeah getting it that elsewhere often isn’t feasible
Sunk cost fallacy.
Yes, biggest car manufacturer, which also manufacturer of the most popular hybrid car in the world, doesn’t know what they are doing when they are making cars. Right. I’ll take your word for it.
You want me to ignore my own experience and all of the bad business decisions we’ve observed companies make throughout history because you want to be oppositional and edgy.
Also doesn’t help that you don’t know what a fallacy is. I recommend you have a look at Wikipedia.
Yes, big companies fall into sunk cost fallacies all the time. Glad you’re keeping up.
Nokia was way more dominant in the phone market than Toyota in the automotive industry. Yet, when it was time to jump on the new technology that everyone else was jumping on (android), they fell into the sunk cost fallacy and stood by their own, outdated tech (symbian). That promptly got them bankrupt. Toyota may still change its course, but if they wait too long, they are going to end up just like Nokia did.
That’s a far better comparison than other offered. Nokia failed not because Symbian was outdated, but because they tried to have too firm of a grip on it and it didn’t evolve fast enough. But yeah, I can see that happening if Toyota decides not to share their tech with others and hydrogen doesn’t end up being wide spread as a result of it. Not sure if they’ll go bankrupt but still. Honda once almost did when they went all in on Wankel engines.
Yes, world’s largest car manufacturer doesn’t know what they are talking about when they talk about car manufacturing. Or they realize battery powered vehicles are only a stop gap measure that doesn’t have long term feasibility and they are jumping over that step. They were amongst the first manufacturers of hybrid vehicles and still produce most popular hybrid. But no, Toyota admits they are behind on battery “technology”. You really have to stretch logic to get that argument going.
Kodak would like a word with you.
They have launched a fully electric car, and it absolutely sucks. It say it’s the worst in its price class, behind not only newcomers (Tesla, Rivian, BYD, etc) but even American, European and other Japanese manufacturers.
Kodak Was the biggest player in photography and invented the digital camera, look where they are now. Don’t underestimate corporate greed, infighting and short-sightedness.
Am not, but am also not underestimating the fact they have decades worth of data on battery manufacturing, use and recycling. All of us are just talking out of our ass. Also comparing anything to Tesla and positioning Tesla as quality makes your argument significantly less impactful.
I didn’t mention quality, don’t let your prejudices cloud your reading.
My bad.
There’s one good thing about the bz4x: you can wait a bit for first year depreciation to hit, and then it looks pretty good.
But by then the depreciation also hits Model Ys, Nissan Ariyas, Ford Mach Es, VW ID4s, Škoda Enyaqs, Hyundai Ionic 5s, etc…
Not equally. Check first year prices on the bz4x. It hits it hard.
Fallacy of appeal to authority. Toyota could be fucking up despite the points you make.
I don’t think this is really an appeal to authority.
The assertion is, without knowledge of the future, Toyota’s predictions (based on research and expertise) is more reliable than that of some cryptobros on Lemmy.
You’re debating who’s opinion is more credible, the selection of an appropriate authority if you will.
An appeal to authority world be “smart guy says hydrogen is dead”.
An appeal to authority world be “smart guy says hydrogen is dead”
I was keying in on OP’s statement:
Yes, world’s largest car manufacturer doesn’t know what they are talking about when they talk about car manufacturing.
With the sarcasm taken into account, the intent appears to be:
The world’s largest car manufacturer must know what they are talking about when they talk about car manufacturing.
Taken with OP’s other arguments, he clearly believes Toyota shouldn’t be questioned simply due to Toyota is the largest and most profitable car company (thus far, anyway). I’m pretty sure that’s an appeal to authority.
Possibly. But assumption that they make good cars because they are popular is not a wrong one to make. It’s possible they are fucking up, of course. Remains to be seen.
Most profitable car manufacturer too.
Toyota has invested heavily into hydrogen, and so are against electrification
Hydrogen would be cleaner in the long run, too, wouldn’t it? Since you wouldn’t need to mine lithium for batteries and such.
Bullshido
Yes but where is the hydrogen coming from? Also hydrogen cars are less efficient than battery powered EVs.
Water, I think? I think the hydrogen is less of an issue than the hydrogen fuel cell though.
Only 10 more years to go!
Unless we improve the efficiency of both electrolysis and fuel cell conversion to about 98%, we won’t beat the batteries.
Yes but where is the hydrogen coming from?
Water.
Natural gas, primarily.
Obtaining hydrogen from water is much more energy-demanding, and the efficiency of the entire water cycle (water electrolysis, hydrogen transportation, electrical conversion) is extremely low compared to just charging batteries.
It wouldn’t. Hydrogen production from any source is extremely power intense. Especially so from water. The amount of energy wasted on hydrogen production is easily offset by battery production and recycling. And that’s not even accounting for hydrogen tank production, which is another hell hole.
Not the mention the overwhelming vast majority of hydrogen today is produced from fossil fuels and not through electrolysis.
Let’s not kid ourselves, anyone advocating for hydrogen as fuel is defending the continued existence of the fossil fuel industry.
There are plenty of places with abundant green energy, and abundant water. As for the tank yea, but idk if it’s worse than lithium
The energy is only abundant until the moment you start wasting it. Hydrogen fuel is a waste of energy.
Renewable energy doesn’t have a tap, you either use it when generated or don’t. If there’s an excess now it can be used. But yea hydrogen fuel may be a waste or not I don’t know. But to say theres an energy shortage everywhere is just not true.
Renewable energy doesn’t mean infinite energy.
I never said it does. I did say for example there are areas that generate hydroelectric/wind/solar power that otherwise would be effectively wasted. Hydroelectric power can control the flow partially to bank it for later, but thats not the case with the other two.
I’d rather waste my money on a car from a maker with vision. This is in line with their move to TX. Too bad.
Can’t beat the reliability of a Toyota or Lexus hybrid. Nothing comes close.
This is in line with their move to TX
Wait what?
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You owe me a coffee and a new keyboard.
JFC we need a carbon tax. All these posts claiming ICE is better than EV lol. Burning fossil fuels kills 250,000 people a year in the US alone. It’s a 25% efficient process. ICE engine has 2000 moving parts while EV has 20. ICE is 20x most likely to have a car fire than EV and far more deadly. This list goes on and on.
We have a cap and trade system here in Washington which raised the price of gas by like 40¢. Unforgivable without a national one, that just incentivizes companies to go to more polluting states. Ironically (not really) the law in those states complain that we need to force China to emit less because manufacturing has moved over there because of their more lax standards.
Well the problem is just what feels like a timebomb to many people. Like the Pinto was actually relatively safe for cars of it’s time and class, but because it created extravagant failures it because notorious for safety.
Fossil fuel fires are explosive. EV fires (which occur 20x less frequently) are slow and hard to put out but give you time to get out of the car. What are you trying to imply by using the word “time bomb”? Because that’s disingenuous.
I’m trying to imply what I said. Please reread what I said before calling it disingenuous. Explaining why people feel a certain way isn’t saying that feeling is correct.
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Their “long game” is the CEO has invested billions into hydrogen fuel cells and can’t afford to admit he made a mistake.
This, they started with hybrids and tough hydrogen was going to be the future, now they are behind in EVs and shit talk them all the time
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More evidence that carbon credits are indeed bullshit.
You can’t fucking buy your way to environmental benefit.
Carbon credits use up the money that would otherwise go into making more pollution. It doesn’t stop pollution but it does slow it down and right now we need all the help we can get.
it kinda doesn’t though… in fact it might be worse. say you take a common carbon credit scam: “protecting” forest that was never going to be cut down anyway
you pay $3 in carbon credit to cover a flight… that money from you as the consumer went to someone wealthy enough to set up that company to run that scam. they’re likely a multi millionaire
as a consumer who chose carbon credits, you’re probably making pretty reasonable choices elsewhere in life: trying to recycle, buy sustainably where you can, etc
the multi millionaire now has that money however. it’s been repeatedly shown that these kinds of people have an absolutely enormous carbon footprint (obligatory fuck that term and its associated “it’s your fault” marketing from big business) compared to us regular folk
worse than that even, if you’re immoral and don’t care about the environment enough to run a carbon credit scam, you’re sure as shit not going to be doing anything sustainable… this is the worst kind of person we’re dealing with: the coal rollers of the world
That’s funny because I’d rather spend my credits on something other than a Toyota.
Carbon credits are an absolute scam but EVs are also not going to get mass adoption and aren’t going to replace ICE cars until used EVs are a thing without needing to replace the battery for the price of a whole car. So I can see why Toyota wouldn’t be too interested in EVs, the tech for them isn’t there for global adoption and is still a niche market.
EVs shouldn’t ever replace ICE cars, people should be able to buy whichever they like, the government needs to stay out of it.
Wait what?
EVs are not going to be mass adopted until EVs are mass adopted and there are second hand electric vehicles. The logic of that one just goes round in circles.
Also who on earth is replacing the batteries on electric vehicles after 5 years of ownership? They will still be at about 80% capacity which is more than enough for most needs, no one’s requiring the replacement of batteries on these cars what are you want about?
The tech for affordable replacement batteries isn’t there and most used cars sold here are 10 years old at least.
If you’re buying a used car for 5000 and you know that at some point you need to cough up 10k to replace the battery you aren’t buying an EV.
I sold my car after I moved to the city since I can get everywhere by tram but take my dad for example: He bought a used van about 15 years ago and he isn’t going to replace it any time soon. If an EV can’t last 20 years without a 10k investment in the middle it just won’t be an attractive option. There are still cars from the 70s on the streets here and unless batteries become affordable that isn’t changing.
bruh in 10 years batteries are going to be significantly cheaper. probably less than half of what you’re banging on about.
It would need to drop to 1/10 of the current price for a used EV market to be viable and about 1/20 for it to be a more attractive option over an old ICE car.
A car that’s made like a phone can suck my balls
Present them.
The battery in my car got replaced. For a 82kWh battery it was $11k, like two years ago. And it only keeps getting cheaper. And they come with 200.000 km warranty.
LiFePo4 have like 5 times the lifespan. So they will outlive your car, you can put them in your next car, they will outlive that one too and then you can use them as buffer storage for your house.
What car can you even do this? These days I expect the battery to be proprietary with DRM and discontinued by the time it makes sense to replace.
Right now?
The only ev I’ve seen powered by LiFePO4 was built by an enthusiast.
… So the short answer is: you can only build one.
LiFePO4 batteries are less energy dense than lithium/cobalt, which is what most use (notable example being every Tesla ever), but some use prismatic cells, IIRC. But Cobalt based cells are generally preferred for weight reduction.
What we need is a battery with the endurance of LiFePO4 and power density that’s as good as, or better than lithium/cobalt cells. Right now that’s the Holy Grail for EVs, and research for such a battery is ongoing. There’s a few that are looking good, but still in fairly early stages of research.
IMO, if that kind of battery can be developed, or another method to power EVs is proven to be effective and safe, then very quickly after that, ICE cars will stop being produced altogether.
Most Chinese cars (BYD, MG, etc), Tesla Model 3 and Y standard range, etc
The manufacturer car replace the battery in any car they make…
11k is more than double of what the average person pays for a car here. The vast majority buy used cars for about 5000 euros on average for a good quality one but you can get a car for even under 1k. Until EVs can hit those prices only a handful of people will buy them in poorer countries.
They will, you can get a Zoe for 6k right now. There just are no 20 year old evs yet.
The cheapest used Zoe I can find in Estonia is 7k and it’s in bad condition all the rest are from 15 - 25k.
25 is what a new one costs. You are doing something wrong.
7 is less than 25 so I’m confused about what you’re confused by. Maybe prices haven’t gone down as much as you’d like, but they’ve gone down, so clearly they are second-hand vehicles.
I was the one who said you can find them for 6, because I’m looking to buy one. Someone said they cost 15-25 used. Who buys a used car for the price of a new one?
Auto24.ee is the most popular site for selling used cars here, check it yourself.
Surprisingly, I don’t speak Estonian.
EVs already attained mass adoption. In Norway almost all new cars are EVs. Several countries are not far behind. Most countries are more suitable for EVs than Norway.
How are most countries more suitable for EVs than Norway? Norway’s hydro power and smaller size is pretty great for EVs.
Smaller size???
Are you American?
The hydro power helps, sure. But Norway is big, cold, and sparsely populated.
Like Canada who doesn’t sell many EVs?
The density of EV drivers in BC in the last 5 years has sharply, noticeably increased.
BC has stupid cheap electricity, it’s a perfect candidate for EVs just like Norway.
It’s true. Definitely part of my equation.
The size of the country isn’t particularly relevant. How many Australians for example regularly cross the desert? What’s relevant is how far individual people commute and that tends to be a function of things like adoption of Work From Home policies and population density.
For example the UK is quite good for electric vehicles because the population is very dense (especially in London where the population is extremely dense).
How is Norway bad for EVs then
Batteries don’t like the cold.
They don’t like charging in the cold but they’ll dissipate just fine
Most lithium ion batteries take permanent damage if charged below 32°f, and if they are used below 15.
Sodium ion batteries w/prussian blue are a major breakthrough. Considerably lower cost, no bad chemicals or rare elements, comparable energy density to Lion, prospects for better energy density in the future, and nob-damaging use/charge in cold temperatures. Neat stuff.
I’m not sure about Norway but here in Estonia the vast vast majority of cars sold are used. New cars are rarely sold due to the price.
All cars were new cars once. If a majority of new cars are EVs, then it is only a matter of time before most used cars are as well.
It’s not (just) a matter of money. Even in China a third of new vehicles are EVs, and Estonia is much richer than China.
The problem is that replacing the battery in an EV costs as much as a new car which is something you need to do if it’s 10 years old.
Even if 1/3 of new cars sold is an EV that will take decades for any meaningful adoption since new cars are incredibly uncommon and affordable replacemt batteries don’t yet exist.
I don’t mind car makers making EVs but it seems like a pretty reasonable choice from Toyota not to enter that market yet.
The only reason they are so expensive currently is because the demand is still quite new and the price you are quoting is ferrying the manufacturer who is incentivised to price it in such a way as to pay you towards buying a new car.
Go to an ICE manufacturer and ask for a new drivetrain and they will likely quote you parts and labour price that exceeds the value of the car.
Aftermarket support will continue to improve as the market continues to grow and mature. Give it another decade or so, and battery swaps/refurbishments will become as commonplace as ICE engine gasket replacements, while also being significantly cheaper.
Even as it stands now, ~10yo Teslas seem to have battery health at >80% (maybe due to over-provisioning?) and are sufficient to meet most commuter’s daily needs.
You don’t have to replace the battery every 10 years. LiFePo cells can do more than 3000 cycles before going below 85% rated capacity. CATL has been making these cheaply for years.
Toyota has been actively sabotaging EV transitions for decades. Of course they’re against the thing they don’t want.
I can currently find exactly zero used cars with a LiFePo battery here. I looked around more and it doesn’t seem to be even used by any car brands that exist here so I have no way to check how expensive a replacement would be. I’m assuming there’s a reason it’s not used but I’m not going to dig into battery research over a lemmy post.
If those batteries solve all the issues leading to used EVs being feasible then that would be great in about a decade or two if they adobt that right now.
Prius is one of the most popular selling Toyotas since it’s debut, either they’re just being obstinate about EVs or they are really invested to the gills on their Hydrogen fueled car lineup.
You would think at least one of their execs would have learned about the sunk cost fallacy in basic econ.
Honestly it’s quite amazing how prone we all are to falling for the old sunk cost fallacy, that fallacy and confirmation bias have to be the two most popular cognitive issues for us as a species.
One would think random person posting online would realize that biggest car manufacturer in the world knows a thing or two about car manufacturing. Especially considering the same manufacturer is behind worlds most popular hybrid car and a number of EVs. I’d also assume they would trust decades of accumulated data on battery sustainability, recycling and manufacturing but I suppose sitting in a computer chair googling is better. Here’s next term to google and learn about “Dunning-Kruger effect”.
Or they realize batteries are not the way to go. I don’t know why people seem to think Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world and are just acting like retards. They are not, and every move is calculated. They have decades of data in regards to battery servicing and duration, recycling, etc. They have the data.
Regardless, we only have found one Earth-Like World within dozens, maybe even hundreds or thousands of light-years from us, and that’s Earth. This world is already straining to keep up with the pollution we are emitting. We have no alternative planets to go to, no backups or do-overs. I can pretty much guarantee that Toyota isn’t thinking of their position 35-100 years from now. Most companies seem to only be looking 5, maybe 10 years ahead. We gotta be careful not to set our only ship on fire in the endless ocean that is the hard vacuum of space. xD
If we really cared about pollution we should stop using traditional forms of cement and get rid of cars all together or at least ban them without at least 3 passengers.
Consumers like the Prius because of the addition of the battery and electric motor.
Toyota likes the Prius because it still contains and ICE engine, which they want to keep selling.
it reminds me of the big tobacco playbook when they put filters on cigarettes after people started realising they were not healthy…Toyota stuck a little battery next to their ICE engine and said ‘it’s healthy now!’ and people went with it…for like 30 years.
If they could pull off hydrogen fuel cells with the help from Ballard Power Systems, I’ll be rich. I’m not that lucky though.
Can someone explain what “credits” are like I’m 5? I read the article, but still don’t understand it.
Edit: Is it carbon credit subsidies from the gub’ment?
Essentially companies that pollute over certain threshold pay money (buy carbon credits) that then goes into non-profits compensating for those emissions by saving the environment, like planting trees and such.
The system is widely criticized for being very flawed and allowing all sorts of shenanigans and manipilations, as those “carbon credits” are sold at competitive pricing, fostering projects with questionable calculations.
In this case, the US governance sets a target efficiency for vehicles (miles per gallon here in the US) and if a pant does not meet that overall efficiency, they have to pay. EVs are a bit odd because they have a miles per gallon equivalency. So if it is expected for them to have 50% by 2030 (50% cars at 100 MPGe and 50% at like 45 MPG(e)) but they out have 30%,they will have to pay a large fine. They are saying they are okay with that rather than ramp up EV production more quickly.
Thanks
Cars are the cigarettes of the transportation world and EVs are big oil’s new “light” or “low tar” option.
And you are bad at labeling things
Aside from hybrids, Toyota has also put a lot of work into hydrogen cars. Those have some real benefits – range, fast fueling time, running the heater is “free”, like in a gasoline vehicle and doesn’t hurt range, don’t have range reduction in cold environments – but they’re more-expensive to fuel than a pure EV, because you’ve got the overhead of conversion from electricity to hydrogen.
I don’t think that the EV user experience is as good as the hybrid gasoline/electric experience or the hydrogen user experience, but I also don’t think that hybrids are gonna be able to achieve enough carbon reduction. Like, if we had figured out a really good, cost-effective way to do carbon sequestration, that’d be one thing. But that isn’t the case in 2024.
And if it comes down to hydrogen or EVs, I think that ultimately, the lower fueling costs of EVs will dominate.
Do you have a hydrogen car?
Right now, there are 59 public hydrogen fueling stations in all of the United States, all of which are in CA. Good luck on a road trip. Even in a big city like Los Angeles they are hard to find and far apart. Pretty awesome to drive 30 minutes in traffic just to fuel up!!
And before you say something like, “we just need to build out the infrastructure;” think how fucking expensive that will be. We already have a MASSIVE infrastructure for electricity and for gas stations. Each hydrogen station costs around $5 million to build. There are roughly 116,000 gas stations in the US, so even adding a quarter of that number in hydrogen would cost $143 billion. It would be better to spend that on beefing up the electrical grid, especially in places like Texas who can’t even handle a tough winter.
As far as the experience, there is nothing better than pulling up to your house and plugging in. It absolutely sucks having to go to a dirty gas station and stand outside in cold or heat or rain while some homeless person asks for money to fill up their car to get to a doctors appointment. Take that gas station experience and then spend time trying to find a far away hydrogen station to fuel up. Even on road trips, I can take a 30 minute lunch break to get 50-80% before driving again. In a hydrogen car I’ll be lucky to find a place to fuel up at all.
Finally, the economics of hydrogen for cars is dumb. Why spend money converting electricity into hydrogen, then put it in a tanker truck that uses diesel to drive it to a station, where it takes electricity to run the pumps, to put hydrogen in a car that TURNS HYDROGEN INTO ELECTRICITY. Compare that to just sending electricity down some wires to charge a battery.
People said the same thing when BEVs were coming out. Personally, I think the main hidden benefits of hydrogen isn’t fast refueling and range, but rather weight and ease of storage.
Hydrogen may be the solution to enable mass adoption of variable renewable power plants, allowing relatively cheap energy storage between seasons. Doesn’t matter if you only get 50% efficiency if you can produce it when electricity is dirt cheap and then store it nigh indefinitely.
As for the weight - the real money in vehicles is in the commercial sector, where weight is precious. Any weight lugging around batteries is dead weight - and hydrogen means less weight than lithium batteries.
Do you have an EV?
For those of us who can charge at home, nothing beats the user experience of just plugging your car in overnight so you always have plenty of charge and never have to think about finding a gas station. Nothing beats the silence or feeling of effortless acceleration.
It’s only charging on road trips that os currently not as good a user experience, but those are uncommon, not as bad as people online think and getting better all the time.
But that’s the thing, we can have both. But EVs alone can’t replace all the cars on the roads now. Either because mining Lithium is a chemically dirty process and there’s not enough of it or simply put weight to range ratio is not where it needs to be. Sure, let people have EV for short commutes and similar use, but we can also have ICE hydrogen engines for trucks, locomotives, boats and cars if you so desire. We already have cars powered with CNG, diesel and gasoline. What makes you think there should only be one replacement for fossil fuels?
I don’t have to stand in -30 weather filling up my EV. Hydrogen is a step back. Also, humans suck at not leaking gasses, and unburned hydrogen isn’t great for the environment.
That’s such a shit excuse. You do realize CNG is a thing? It’s a compressed natural gas powered vehicles. They are everywhere. Where I live every gas station has a connector for one of those. Hose like any other. You click and it starts filling.
I plug in my ev and go to sleep. No worrying about gas stations, high pressure gasses, leaks, price gouging etc.
Not to mention, BEVs have the simplest drivetrain ever. I’m half convinced Toyota and GM are going hydrogen so they can maintain their spare parts businesses. Though for reals it’s likely because they missed out on all those sweet BEV patents.
I’ve been in favour of hydrogen for years over electric. Honda had some really interesting ideas and concepts, plus a long term study in california. Mercedes initially looked to be heading into hydrogen over electric then pivoted, but BMW look to have just decided to move more to hydrogen from their electric development… Does look like batteries are beginning to take a step up though. Should be interesting in the next few years
Because hydrogen is primarily made from natural gas (fossil fuel). Hydrogen is not a viable solution since efficiency is crap
Hydrogen being viable fuel has nothing to do with its production. Its viability comes from high energy density, ability to refuel faster, better performance in the winter compared to EVs, etc. Production, sure, currently it’s fossil fuel based because that’s the cheapest way to produce it. The thing is, it’s not the only way to produce it. There’s electrolysis, then there are bacteria which can produce it, etc. If the demand jumps so will the production and prices will go down. Plus there’s no OPEC controlling prices.
But all of it matters very little. It means you can use fossil fuels to produce greener fuel, and then just switch along the line somewhere. Far easier transition.
You realise hydrogen comes from water not fossil fuels right? You know the H in H2O? You just use electrolysis to split the H2O into hydrogen and oxygen.
Over 95% of the world’s hydrogen is produced using the steam methane reforming process (SMR). In this reaction, natural gas is reacted with steam at an elevated temperature to produce carbon monoxide and hydrogen. A subsequent reaction — the water gas shift reaction — then reacts additional steam with the carbon monoxide to produce additional hydrogen and carbon dioxide.
Natural gas is a fossil fuel and non-renewable resource that is formed when layers of organic matter (primarily marine microorganisms) decompose under anaerobic conditions and are subjected to intense heat and pressure underground over millions of years.
Except that is not how hydrogen is generated on an industrial level. The vast majority of hydrogen comes from a process called steam reforming, and it is worse for the environment than just going directly with gasoline.
A little outdated that view, there’s been several breakthroughs recently and production cost/ efficiency. The shear convenience of only having a three minute refill time instead of recharging problems etc
Hydrogen is a horribly volatile compound, inherently unsafe. Regarding costs, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Besides there isn’t enough of vital rare earths for the fuel cells. Currently it’s a dead end.
But do indulge me with links if you will
Credits need to be abolished. It just lets polluters keep polluting with no incentive to change.
Or at the least, they should be more expensive.
They’re not backed by reality
Honestly this is the only thing that will work. You’ve got to speak their language. Fines aren’t a deterrent unless it REALLY hurts.
Unfortunately credits are totally fake. “So you have land with vegitation you already plan to conserve or farm? Let me help you make money on that and pretend we are saving it.”
