I’m lucky my banking app works (GrapheneOS), as it’s now requiring 2FA with the app anytime I login on the browser. Can’t use an actually secure form like TOTP. At least they now allow passwords over 8 characters (yes, serious).
(Meme in comments)
Magisk plus DenyList luckily works for my banks. Couldn’t imagine not having a rooted phone.
Non-rooted phones are just like iPhones. Ewww…
Agree, don’t get why you are being downvoted.
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You are being downvoted because you’re factually wrong. While Android (especially on Samsung devices) had been getting more locked down over the years, even unrooted it has way more freedom than an iPhone. For instance, you can install any number of APKs, without jumping through any hoops.
As a I said before, I don’t care about downvotes. Be my guest.
That’s ok an all, but I assumed that you do care about making a false statement, which was the point of my response, to let you know.
For now. Google’s recent patterns would seem to indicate the future trajectory of Android to become even more hobbled.
I doubt it will ever be as closed as iPhone but there’s a point where the door is technically still open, just not in a way that really means much.
Like bicycles with training wheels.
Can you compile your own OS from source for an iPhone and install it yourself? I don’t think so.
I have done that with my non-rooted android, and I can do anything I want with my phones through the powers of open source software.
Rooting is unnecessary now and that’s a good thing.
Who cares if it’s necessary? If people want to do it, they should be able to, without punishment.
Well you can, and there is no punishment, so you should be happy.
I imagine you probably think “punishment” is that some bank won’t let you use their app on a rooted phone. That is not a punishment, that’s the bank implementing the security that they deem necessary for access to their software, and is likely part of a license agreement that you agreed to by using it. You have no default entitlement to have free use of the software that anyone else produces unless the software developer’s license states that you do.
Actual punishment would be if your phone gets bricked by the OEM for rooting it, or government authorities fine or arrest you for rooting.
You can’t do that without unlocking the bootloader, and that alone will trip “root detection” (Play Integrity).
Some apps take it further and won’t run if you enable Developer Options! (Or have any number of “hacking apps” installed, such as autotap apps that don’t even need root.)
Yes, I am aware of how it works. Unlocking the bootloader is not the same as rooting, and all my apps work just fine.
If they work with an unlocked bootloader then they would almost certainly also work fully rooted, with the advantages that brings (such as actual working app+data backups, limiting max battery charge, better automation possibilities with apps like Tasker, etc)
I’d much rather switch banks than give up rooting my phone.
Rooting is unnecessary now and that’s a good thing.
Rooting is always necessary, you can’t convince me otherwise, imagine not having root permissions in your Windows, Linux or macOS machine…
Without “rooting” capabilities we wouldn’t have custom firmware for tech that is quite locked (like the PSP, Vita, 3DS and whatever OS they use), emulation would not be the same.
Heck, even some iOS versions can be jailbroken yet, I cannot conceive a world where iOS is less locked than Android.
You need to be the one who decides how your hardware is managed.
Beat the main purpose of GrapheneOS. Open the phone to a broad lot of security issues.
GrapheneOS is made by diva developers who frankly should not be trusted. “We only allow Google phones to run our OS!” as if they don’t have a backroom deal with Google.
genuinely curious; can u elaborate on the deal with google?
Pure wild speculation if I’m honest, however I’d be more surprised if I was completely wrong. It’s always seemed sketchy the way Google have basically said “Use our phone, it’s more secure!” with their Nexus and Pixel phones - this was long after the time Google stopped not being evil. At best, the security problems have simply changed manufacturer. Also, Google have a history of undermining development of circumvention, eg hiring the developer of MicroG and forcing him to stop development as a term in his contract.
The diva part is widely known, GrapheneOS developers don’t play nice with the rest of the custom development community. So, while I can’t substantiate any actual deal between them and Google, it’s the perfect recipe.
i see. i bought my phone second hand, so google isnt getting money from the sale, but i can see the problem with every user relying on the same phone manufacturer
Proove us that you can get better security while remaining able to be fully modified with other phones and brands. https://www.privacyguides.org/en/android/#divestos
Privacy Guides has a bit of a sordid history of their own diva behaviour.
Just higher standards.
Nah they’ve been accused of biases.
@TWeaK @PoorPocketsMcNewHold @android
BullshitJust logical. If you gain the privilege to modify system bits, then it just open the potential for attacks abusing root access. And it has been done already. You are just removing one step for them. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/loki-trojan-infects-android-libraries-and-system-process-to-get-root-privileges/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/highly-advanced-spydealer-malware-can-root-one-in-four-android-devices/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-abstractemu-malware-roots-android-devices-evades-detection/ https://promon.co/security-news/fjordphantom-android-malware/
What are the security issues? Rooted just means the potential to give trusted apps root access. Of course, if you give an app root access that you trust but is then abusing that trust and being malicious, yes it’s a security issue. But if you don’t do that, the simple fact of having a rooted phone should have no security change in any way. (Ok, except for potential bugs in Magisk/su or whatever)
The whole issue revolves around the fact Google is presuming a device is compromised or being used for illicit shit simply because root access is possible. If they put in effort to detect/prevent the actual problems they’re concerned about, this wouldn’t be as big a deal. This broad punishment for simply having root access is lazy and ridiculous.
It’s like if Windows apps just stopped working if they detected a local admin account. It’s patently absurd to assume the ability to access anything means the device is inherently “unsafe”.
But the previous commenter talked about security issues, you’re only talking about usability issues.
If you have the UI layer able to grant root access, it has root access itself and is not sandboxed. If the UI layer can grant it, an attacker gaining slight control over it has root access. An accessibility service trivially has root access. A keyboard can probably get root access, and so on. Instead of a tiny little portion of the OS having root access, a massive portion of it does.
In the verified boot threat model, an attacker controls persistent state. If you have persistent root access as a possibility then verified boot doesn’t work since persistent state is entirely trusted.
A userdebug build of AOSP or GrapheneOS has a su binary and an adb root command providing root access via the Android Debug Bridge via physical access using USB. This does still significantly reduce security, particularly since ADB has a network mode that can be enabled. Most of the security model is still intact. This is not what people are referring to when they talk about rooting on Android, they are referring to granting root access to apps via the UI not using it via a shell.
I’m pretty sure whoever wrote that was talking out their ass. The fuck is “UI layer” on Android, or rather, what does it have to do with it xD
The actual Magisk prompt that ask you if you want to give root to such app. This UI layer.
Although, i suppose it could be countered by explicitly refusing all requests or enabling a biometric confirmation
But granting root is not done by “the UI layer”, “the UI layer” is not running with root. There is no such thing as “the UI layer” as a separate entity, an app can have a UI layer as part of its architecture, but the UI is not running on its own. Just because Magisk shows you a UI for you to grant/deny a root request, that doesn’t make it insecure. Nothing is able to interact with this prompt except the Android kernel/libraries itself and Magisk.
Only if you added an application as accessibility tool (or give it root) can it interact with anything within the UI. An app with a UI is generally not much different than an app on the command line.
It still create an attack vector, as it allows a potential extra method to get access to it, in addition of potential hardware exploits that i shared to gain root. Yes, you can minimize the risks correctly, but the user is the only real barrier against it, not the software anymore. The less potential way to exploit your phone, the better it is. You shouldn’t rely on thinking that such feature is fully attack-proof.
Graphene only works for Pixel phones, and I don’t want a Google device.
@viking @PoorPocketsMcNewHold @android
Then don’t bother, there’s no GrapheneOS for you!
Only big manufacturers can really pay to control entirely the hardware inside it, and allow you to modify it. Checkout Fairphone for example. They’ve been forced to stop hardware security updates due to their chip manufacturer, who refused to continue supporting it, despite them trying to support their devices for plenty more years. This explains the choice with Google.
Yeah, that was their point.
thats fair. device support is a major downside of GOS. but, remember: its not really the fault of the OS, as it requires a lockable/unlockable bootloader, which only pixel phones provide (at least in terms of mainstream phones). blame the OEMs like samsung
which only pixel phones provide (at least in terms of mainstream phones)
Mainstream phones? Pixel is a smaller market share than Motorola, and Motorola has unlockable bootloaders, and lineage supports a fair number of them.
I thought Google owned Motorola, but I missed the sale to Lenovo ten years ago.
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Sadly, can’t be re-locked. Would have loved to get a Motorola if it was.
There are a ton of unlockable bootloaders. On my OnePlus that’s a matter of flipping a switch in the settings.
can it be re-locked? i may be wrong, btw. this is just what ive heard.
I don’t know, never tried that.
That’s the main issue really, as it open the possibility to manage your device for anyone getting hold of it. Probably some debug attack methods also with it.
don’t give root to any app duh
All our local banks closed their branches. We’re lucking if we can get a human to talk to.
Your banks still have offices? Cool!
yeah but they are closing the ones near me :(
They need to since PNC doesn’t have a functioning app or website
Magisk Hide + app rename works most of the time, for those with rooted phones
Funnily enough I had issues with Wallet working on my phone since I have unlocked bootloader but no root. Banking and everything else afaik worked. So I installed all that stuff, Magisk, Magisk Hide, I don’t even remember all the things I tried and what it resulted in was now since I was actually rooted all the banking apps and other stuff stopped working.
When you root, you’re creating more flags for apps to detect, so you have to put in more effort to hide them all. That means a greater likelihood of something being detected if you missed it. It’s a trade off. You do have to learn a bit about what you’re doing and do some trial and error.
But the greater point is, if banking apps and wallet are important to you on that specific phone, you can either root and put in the effort to make it work, root and just do all that stuff from a browser, or not root at all.
Yeah, it’s annoying, but it isn’t the fault of Magisk or the rooting community, it’s Google and your banks fault for actively punishing you for using your own device the way you like.
Personally, I have two phones now. My main one is rooted, and if I need an app that breaks on root, I pull out the “clean” one (my old phone after factory reset). Use a hotspot if mobile.
For me it’s important that my banking works (so far they haven’t complained about unlocked bootloader, only about root) but Wallet is just nice to have. And that doesn’t work with unlocked bootloader but did work with root. I guess it’s no root for me since I haven’t managed to juggle them both.
Sucks that Google is doing this. I don’t even have root and they are complaining. Makes having a custom rom annoying sometimes.
Even worse still: many online banking services require you to connect to Google, basically through the back end captcha system. You never have to solve the puzzle or click on traffic lights, but they do still associate you and your web browser with having an account with that bank.
However also, you can often use root with banking apps, you just have to set it up right. Configure Magisk to operate in the Zygisk domain with a deny list, and add the apps to that.
Get new bank
Doesn’t work because of Play Integrity API but there are ways to bypass it. At least for now. Look up PlayIntegrityFork.
Some apps implement other checks. Mine checks whatever you replaced the stock webview (checking the package name). So sometimes it is challenging to find those checks to bypass them.
I moved to a bank that allows non google phones and let my previous bank know why I left.
Why are you licensing your comments
at least its CC :)
Because they think it matters. Same as people posting on Facebook some legalese saying “Facebook doesn’t have the rights to my stuff.”. They think that by slapping a copyright “claim” on their stuff that they supercede the agreements of the platform and somehow protect their comments from being scrapped by bots/advertisers, etc. All it really does is add a little “this guy is probably a sovereign citizen type” sign to every post they make.
There is no such platform agreement on lemmy, so they might have at least a little bit of a chance
Heath Ledger started banking here in the year 2000. Only movie producers have debit cards right and all actors are on a cash only basis and actors are cannibals that rob and eat their prey.
I mean you all weren’t ripping or watching Hollywood movies on the internet right? Because that’s just a cheap way for producers to store things so there isn’t giant dvd and vhs recording machines. Taking up space in print shops. Printing t shirts just went on because that blonde chick in ten things I hate about you did acting as a source of income and because it was an art but she preferred real art but didn’t see selling statues as a source of income or steady income. Sometimes large durable good purchases weren’t supported in capitalism. So it was T shirt printing and that genre of music that took place during those years. They’d all run around stabbing and killing all these other people as like a cult. The world was somewhat French back then.
And simulations are just used for movie production so that actors don’t miss their cues or start eating things and robbing and killing each other on the set.
Heath Ledger is kidnapped not dead, if he didn’t die as his stage name or other self then hepatitis b does this to him, and that’s why there was glucose in Mountain Dew and potassium in everything else as a preservative and no one could really eat natural foods or supposedly natural cheeses and butter. And that’s one thing I hate about you.
sorry, what ?
My dyslexic ass read that as “Baking apps” and i was genuenly confused.
Ok fine no banks it is then.
The app for my bank DNB (Norway) doesn’t work on my LineageOS phone, but it works on my GrapheneOS phone. I wonder if they’ve added the graphene keys, because it just suddenly started working a while ago, though might be some GrapheneOS magic
LineageOS doesn’t spoof safetynet and play integrity, GrapheneOS does afaik. So that’s most likely the reasonSee below
GrapheneOS doesn’t either. It does Android Hardware Attestation instead of SafetyNet. It has never, and will never spoof SafetyNet.
The hardware attestation feature is part of the Android Open Source Project and is fully supported by GrapheneOS. SafetyNet attestation chooses to use it to enforce using Google certified operating systems. However, app developers can use it directly and permit other properly signed operating systems upholding the security model. […] Direct use of the hardware attestation API provides much higher assurance than using SafetyNet so these apps have nothing to lose by using a more meaningful API and supporting a more secure OS.
https://grapheneos.org/usage#banking-apps
My banking apps work on GrapheneOS, so I guess they are using hardware attestation instead of SafetyNet. LineageOS won’t pass hardware attestation because it doesn’t support locked bootloader.
In what way does it fail on Lineage? My local banking app fails on CalyxOS - seems to pass the security checks (judging from init messages when opening the app), but get a nondescriptive error when trying to log in.
Just goes “app not supported on rooted devices”
Ah, then there could be a different issue with my banking app. Maybe there’s a hope I can solve it then. I just assumed it the custom ROM that was the issue. Then again, maybe they just don’t bother letting me know the reason… :)
It used to be possible (probably still is) to use magisk to get around it for my bank, but I stopped caring after the EU did some laws forcing interoperability between banks so I can just use my other banks app to access the accounts for that bank.
Might be worth looking into!
Google and the banks can eat my whole asshole.
Thanks.
No problem Margot Robbie
TOTP is not secure
What’s wrong with TOTP?
Phishable. Use FIDO2 (webauthn) with user verification (pin, fingerprint)
Preach
fingerprint has law enforcement issues (especially in America) - they can compel you to provide it, but not a password.
OK so use the Pin
