plspls_pls_ stop calling each other fascists or astroturfers unless you have a thorough understanding of the uncommitted movement and what u.s. primaries are. there is so much blatant misunderstanding and misinfo going on it’s bad.
edit: if any loser dares call for an uncommitted vote in the general election? i will kick them in the balls (gender neutral) (in minecraft)
If people commit to it in the primaries then the demonization will carry to the general. But I suppose people aren’t familiar with voter apathy
If somebody commits to it in the primary, then their mind is already made up. It sounds like you’re putting the cart before the horse here. People are voting uncommitted because of how they feel about Biden; their feelings about Biden aren’t changing because they vote uncommitted.
This is actually good for Biden, because he can check the pulse of the electorate going into the general election. Polling data, as we know by now, is notoriously unreliable. This is a way to get a message to Biden about what’s important to his voter base. Without this information, people might not show up to vote, and he might have no idea why.
imho this is directly targeted to increase voter apathy.
Fuck bottoming for Biden and Trump. If you vote Biden, you’re enabling genocide. Kind regards, rest of the world.
Forgive me if, when presented with the trolley problem and the person on track b would die anyways if I did not pull the lever, if I pulled that lever instead of ignoring everything and/or jumping off a cliff. The political situation is bleak here, and the machine is designed to keep Americans placated, disenfranchised, and generally apathetic. We don’t have coalition voting. We don’t have ranked choice, and it’s even banned in certain states! If there’s a proper alternative to Biden in this country, that information has to be disseminated to hundreds of millions and convince them to change their vote. It’s possible that someone could come along but they’d have to work fast I sure as hell don’t see anyone with that kind of rallying power. Do you have any suggestions on who I should vote for?.. Because my choice is first and foremost in the interest of overall harm reduction in whatever practical terms that can actually be accomplished in this country.
Declining to vote in this system is, effectively, silently endorsing whoever gets in; it signals that you’re ok with everything, or at least it gets interpreted that way by politicians 100x more than any sort of “protest” effect you think not voting will achieve. Literally if you don’t vote for a politician why should they care what the fuck you think? One party doesn’t even want us voting at all because it means they can give less of a fuck about us! Frankly, I don’t want to see the orange man in office again, and he will be worse than even self-professed Zionist Joe on matters pertaining to the rest of the world. Again, I’m open to an alternative if you can give me one that’s not sticking my head in the sand or some fetishistic “revolution” way too many people pine for without having a single ounce of solidarity in their real lives.
Dear rest of the world, why haven’t you stopped it? And don’t say anything about a nonbinding UN resolution.
If it wasn’t for the overpowered military industrial complex and veto in the security council, I’m pretty sure we’d have a no fly zone and democratic transition in the US by now.
What if you don’t vote for Biden, what happens then?
Then every Tennessee elector still votes for Trump.
Drumft will turn it into genocide+
If you don’t vote for Biden, you’re okay with a Trump victory.
Kind regards, sane people.
A moral dilemma doesn’t go away if you close your eyes.
So many years I’ve heard Americans complain, rightly so, about the duopoly farming your insecurities for profits. Each cycle the duopoly gets worse and worse. Again we’re at a point where it seems they can’t stoop any lower, and again most seemingly progressive Americans suddenly become incredibly pragmatist, excusing genocide, destruction of the environment, war in Europe, cold war 2.0, because “the alternative is worse”. Fuck that from the rest of the world that has to live under your megalomanic geriatric child killing leaders. You need to find a solution, and voting for the lesser evil just ain’t it, because it is already so incredible destructive and outright barbarian. Make a third way, engage Trump voters on their home turf, make a revolution, I don’t care, just leave us the fuck alone. Thank you.
Can I vote for Biden and also do all of those things too?
The problem is that Biden knows that all of these people will vote for him anyways in the general election, so he doesn’t care.
yeah :’(
It’s so unfathomable to me to think you cannot send a message by having an opinion, only by using an indirect possible half message via an entirely different channel used for other things? It’s crazy talking to think political officers don’t understand or know what people ask for, but they will understand this? It’s coming from ignorance or do people actually not understand?
It is clear within the US that the uncommitted movement is grossly misunderstood outside of the people who care to engage with anti-genocide protest efforts. Because the main stream media did not cover it effectively up to the primary election and barely covered it after.
It is also clear that people from other countries do not understand the US primary system at all.
For Democrats, voter turn out is what matters. And that the “uncommitted” vote does not beat Biden. The uncommitted vote will not beat Biden since no news orgs covered it well so few know about it unless previously involved in anti-genocide efforts. Only Democrats can vote in the US Democrat primary, so high primary turnout shows how many democrats are willing to vote for Biden come election AND the uncommitted vote shows an easy tally of how many people were moved enough to discover the uncommitted vote movement and take part to support ending the genocide of the Palestinians.
If you see actual astroturfing, fascists-in-leftist-clothing calling for an uncommitted vote in the general, tell them to “fuck off tankie”.
In the US general election there will be no “uncommitted” option, showing that they are out-of-state fascists. Tell them to eat shit loudly and do not engage further with the fascies.
The US general election is serious as the republican challenger is the fascist bitch who tried to overthrow the government. But the genocide of the Palestinians is also serious, they’re actually dying by the thousands and after you die you’re dead it’s donezo, and anyone should be able to realize that that’s horrendous
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Uncritical identitarian ideologues are the bane of all movements. You’re committed to the identity of being a leftist/socialist/communist rather than the ideology, just like the Christian fascists that explicitly ignore every good idea in the Bible in favor of the worst ideas.
Over time, many supposed Marxists have decided to ignore the best principles and goals outlined by the man himself. You instead favor what “works” to build a “committed” movement. Unfortunately, “committed” means committed to the identity, while things only “work” if they ensure the group’s existence.
Accomplishing the stated goals of the group doesn’t matter so long as it has a stable niche. It basically works by evolutionary logic, with accuracy and ethics only mattering if it helps the group survive. It becomes cultish, often explicitly so if there is centralized power.
The parallels between Christianity and Marxism become more clear with how they reference the texts written by their great leaders selectively, highlighting whatever fits their current agenda. The most counterintuitive part is that we don’t think about ideas in the way that they actually behave, instead assuming they serve us.
People usually believe their own shit, but produce outcomes that look like sociopathic calculus. Liberals genuinely believe what they say about liberalism. Capitalists genuinely believe most of their nonsense arguments. It doesn’t matter that social programs create stability, or that regulations often benefit the unwilling companies in the long run. The saying “we often attribute stupidity to malice” is inaccurate. We really attribute evolution to intelligence.
People with nonsense ideologies almost never disbelieve everything they say. Fascist leaders buy most of their own bullshit. You believe in your own flawed logic. I probably believe bullshit about something, so I keep an open mind.
If you don’t vote, I don’t care, I say donezo on the reg and will say it again. Doesn’t change that Palestinians are dying by the thousands
Giving up is worthless, especially when one evil will ensure everyone in the LGBTQ+ sphere will die at some point in the near future and one won’t. Look inside yourself from an ethical perspective - if you can make some positive change, do it. Especially if it costs you nothing but gets trans people everything
You’re saying this to a gay guy who works around trumpers in a factory.
Trump being president doesn’t mean the gays will be rounded up into camps or something. I hate when people play this card that we’re all gonna get fucking murdered and it’s my fault for not voting blue, like what? It’s apparent that it’s playing on emotions to use LGBT people as some weird guilt trip and it’s honestly pretty gross. I can take care of myself and my partner and our home just fine thanks. And I feel no differently safety wise whether it’s a Republican or Democrat in office.
Must be nice to live such a privileged life.
Trans people are at risk right now, states that ban transitioning will kill them. Gay people were at risk years ago but decades of voting for politicians that support peoples’ rights have allowed you to live and be out now. I am glad you have the rights you deserve and will not lose them in a year, but trans people are losing rights they deserve now. Not to mention abortion rights have been lost that are deserved well.
But voting got justices in place to enact rulings that decriminalized sodomy in 2003. Literally it was illegal to be gay in a bunch of states prior to 2003. Just as not voting let Trump install justices that removed abortion access.
Your right to a same-sex marriage (2015 ruling, very recent, only 36/50 states allowed same-sex marriage prior to that ruling and of course after 2003) and even being with someone of the same-sex (2003 ruling) are both Supreme Court rulings that can easily be repealed just as Roe v Wade was. I want everyone’s right to love who they want to be enshrined in the constitution, but until it is same-sex relationships are somewhat vulnerable. Voting and political action are the only way to enable your rights to remain forever. And voting is ez pz you just tick a few boxes for the person that doesn’t want to kill trans people.
You are correct; your life will continue whether or not you vote. But the quality of life is greatly impacted by the will of the people, which is gauged through voting. And the quality of life of other groups (people transitioning) are in danger right now
There’s a thing where previously oppressed minorities get their rights, and then they start to forget that there are other oppressed minorities that still need their rights.
For example, Irish people were often oppressed a century ago in the US, but they’re just more white guys. That why Bill O’Reilly could go on Fox News in the early 2000s and say “my Irish ancestors pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, why can’t black people?”
Solidarity cannot be taken for granted.
Wise words and much respect, comrade glizzyguzzler.
Could you pull the ladder up behind you any harder?
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I don’t get why people think I’m out at work or everyone supports me being gay or something based on my comment.
I’ve heard vile homophobia at work. They’re still gonna be homophobes no matter what in November
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Vote (cope) harder
If you don’t think your voice matters in the ballot box, why do you assume it matters anywhere?
Aka, if the electoral system is rigged, just give up. There is no alternative. Unless of course you find yourself within a nation with a somewhat browner skin color. Then expect liberation and democratization by way of the bomb.
fascists-in-leftist-clothing calling for an uncommitted vote in the general, tell them to “fuck off tankie”.
How is that person a tankie?
i still don’t quite get how tankie ideology plays into this but past that, yes, i agree with everything you have said. :)
Ah I meant that a “fascist-in-leftist-clothing” is a tankie! (Edit: v big generalization of course)
Thanks for making the me-me!
no prob :) i still don’t quite think that’s what the definition of tankie is but imma let it slide since that is not the topic of this post.
Only Democrats can vote in the US Democrat primary,
This is not true. There are multiple states that allow voting in the primary of a party to which you are not registered. You just can’t vote in both primaries.
🤓🤓🤓 But in more seriousness, it is true for the majority - ok some states let independents vote in one party’s primary but they have to request it and it’s harder and I’m not gonna add that addendum to a long ass diatribe
About 24 states have some form of open primary. Most of them are entirely open. Some are independents/uncommited-only as you noted.
I received both parties ballots and I did not request it. We voted for that explicitly to be the case.
Fuggin states and their fuggin random ass rules for voting
Indeed.
Who is “calling” and “not calling” the uncommitted movement?
democrat pro-palestine groups.
here is one specific example: https://www.listentomichigan.com/
Nice, I do like it when useful idiots identifiy rhemselves upfront, instead of me having to dig, thanks!
Wow, the entire point of the post went over your head
It didn’t, I just disagree.
“An uncommitted movement will not be called for the general”
Okay, but what if I direct you to people calling for exactly that.
please do so and i’ll tell them to kick rocks.
(you can’t even vote uncommitted in the general afaik it’s not even an option)
one should direct criticism to those doing the bad thing, not the ones with vague aesthetics of the bad thing when viewed through a bad-faith lens.
please do so and i’ll tell them to kick rocks.
Unironically I’m happy to hear this.
(you can’t even vote uncommitted in the general afaik it’s not even an option)
Some states allow write-ins for the General.
yay!
and yeah, but write-ins are quite distinct from an uncommitted vote.
in an earlier thread someone compared the general to the trolley problem, with a vote for Biden being the lesser of two evils. at the same time, i view the uncommitted movement as a way of trying to get as many people untied from the Biden track as possible.
Haha un cum bent
i need a hit of what you’re having rn pls
Uh, I don’t take anything. I just don’t really care about elections and stuff. I just want there to be no war (and also that capitalism gets a redo)
wants large-scale change
refuses to care about politics
lmao
I know, makes sense. I’m just not from America. I do care about my local politics.
Oh ok, that’s fair
w opinion
This kind of post is exactly how Trump is going to be elected to the Supreme Court, so he can grant himself immunity. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Really just gonna tell on yourself like that, huh?
top tier comment
AN UNCOMMITTED MOVEMENT WILL NOT BE CALLED FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION, REGARDLESS OF THE RESULT OF THE PRIMARY.
First off, it better not. If you think “Genocide Joe” is bad for palestine, try “Bloodbath drumpf”… I mean, maybe it is better to die violently and fast than slowly? But either way, whatever the pro-palestine movement is after, the democrats are their best choice, and by far. The alternative not only got stronger ties with the netanyahu government, but also a much lower overall IQ, zero consideration for legislation, international agreements, humanitarian matters, and democracy in general (which they have literally confused with the opposition party, for decades by now). You might not like biden, but from a humanitarian PoV, he is orders of magnitude better than anyone the GoP might select (and especially more so if it is drumpf).
Second off, I get that people are trying to “send a message”, but if it changes nothing aside from vanity numbers, it will have absolutely zero impact. The impact was “voting for Bernie”, and that is about 8 years too late now.
Idk if it’s even possible to vote uncommitted in the general, but I’m voting psl.
i know you probably hear this a lot, but i encourage you not to do so. until we have ranked choice voting, voting for the democrat candidate in the general will always be a needed form of harm reduction, especially if you live in a swing state.
others are probably better at expressing this than i, so i’ll leave it at that. :)
No thanks.
They’re doing an awful job of harm reduction and I’m not waiting for fundamental systemic changes to the country’s election process to withhold support from the party that’s rug pulled me for 24 years.
The best time to stop supporting the democrats and put my energy elsewhere was 2000, the second best time is now.
I will also never vote for Joe Biden for any position again.
thanks for hearing me out, i see you definitely have thought this through so i won’t rag on you despite our disagreement.
No worries. You’re always welcome on the “democrats fuck off” side. There’s definitely somewhere here with your politics and idea of appropriate direct action.
don’t get me wrong, democrats can eat dirt the majority of the time 😭 bunch of war criminals and capitalist scum. but in the end, after doing organizing and grassroots stuff, when it comes down to the final say, i personally try to make the choice that will be the most pragmatically beneficial (or least harmful, as it tends to be) to my neighbors.
voting is not harm reduction.
i have heard this argument a couple times and honestly haven’t been swayed by it. let me know if i’ve been hearing the argument from the wrong sources but it’s such a tough position to defend when i know for a fact that each vote i make can have a direct influence on the livelihood of my neighbors.
harm reduction as a specific thing. The best example of it is needle exchanges and safe injection rooms for addicts. you recognize that the bad thing is happening, and you do what you can to mitigate the harm that comes from the bad thing. The bad thing is bad people being in power. what you can do to mitigate that is engaging in mutual aid and community organizing around issues that are affecting you locally. voting for a Democrat or Republican won’t stop the bad things from happening. The Democrats have brought us to the point where Trump is seen as reasonable by half the electorate. The Democrats have shared power with the Republicans for the past hundred years as fascism has taken over the government. voting for them doesn’t reduce the harm that they cause.
edit
voting for Democrats is like giving out free Suboxone and saying at least it’s not heroin. That’s not harm reduction. harm reduction is recognizing that the addicts are going to use the substance of their choice and making that as safe as possible.
harm reduction [is] a specific thing. The best example of it is needle exchanges and safe injection rooms for addicts. you recognize that the bad thing is happening, and you do what you can to mitigate the harm that comes from the bad thing. The bad thing is bad people being in power.
these first sentences of yours follow perfectly into the following thesis:
“What you can do to mitigate that is engaging in mutual aid and community organizing, and when the opportunity to do that ends, to also vote for the candidate which does the least harm.”
There is room to hold both truths at once. If Trump had not won in 2016, the supreme court would have an entirely different makeup, we’d still have Roe v Wade, and there would be fewer women and doctors fearing legal persecution for taking medically necessary action in cases like ectopic pregnancy.. You recognize that someone bad was going to get elected in 2016, but only one of those rolled back basic women’s rights. Harm reduction. And that’s just one example of many. There is nothing about voting a handful of times a year that precludes you from also also organizing and participating in mutual aid.
The candidate that does the least harm would probably be Cornell West or Jill Stein. voting for the senator who put in place the conditions for roe v Wade to be turned over, the senator who confirmed some of those very same justices, to be president does not reduce harm. if you won’t take it from me maybe it’ll take it from this guy
https://www.indigenousaction.org/voting-is-not-harm-reduction-an-indigenous-perspective/
sounds like you should vote for cornell west or jill stein then :)
i had already read this article long before today and it still doesn’t give a compelling argument that voting can’t reduce harm, sorry.
Fine for people to voted uncommitted but jot sure why we don’t see more people voting in the republican primary to throw trump off balance.
The democratic party in my state puts money and campaign assistance behind smaller local races (congressional, state legislature, and small local races) based on primary numbers. My county has about 0.7x dem primary voters vs. our rep primary voters. As we’re finally turning blue enough that we might win a race here and there, we’re getting a lot more assistance from the larger dem strongholds in the state. My congressional rep is doing more events in my county instead of focusing on the bigger cities in their district. It’s all a snowball effect. More engagement by dems in the primaries means more focus on campaigns in my area means bigger dem voter turnout in my area, and the cycle builds upon itself. If I vote republican in the primaries to be a spoiler, the dem party just sees my county shifting further right. Plus, my primary vote actually helps decide on my dem candidates in my region. It’s a whole lot more than just one office.
Because I refuse to register as a Republican for any reason.
You see that on occasion. My dad was registered Republican for many years in Florida just to vote in the primary for the less batshit option, and you have to be registered for a party to vote in their primary in Florida. In Minnesota, where I currently live, it’s an open-ish primary where I could have theoretically chosen to vote in the Republican primary but you have to sign something saying you generally agree with that party’s platform - and I can’t honestly say I agree at all with the Republicans, so it wouldn’t have been legal for me to vote in the Republican primary.
They ain’t gonna check though. So you can jist lie.
For one, I read last time that some places requie you to be a registered republican to vote in the primaries.
Because that shit doesn’t work. It got trump elected in the first place
Because they genuinely love him. He’s their god emperor.
Assuming I’m understanding correctly, only a few states allow people to vote in a primary for a party that they’re not registered as. Honestly, I’m not sure why any states still allow that, because I wouldn’t want any registered Republicans voting in the Democratic primary any more than the other way around.
its not exactly as easy as it sounds, as if youre in a different party (e.g no party preference) you have to make a follow up request for another ballot of another party. the ballot doesnt get mailed in with the initial ballot. its effectively block anyone wanting the easy way to do it, over the mail at the least.
His mind is capable of speaking up to a third grade level. The people in favor of Trump understand him clearly.
The uncommitted movement will, in fact, be called for the general election - by assholes who just want Biden to lose.
You can ignore them. But they will be there. And the mouth noises they make will be based on sincere and reasonable criticism.
The thing about objecting ‘we can’t do [blank] because conservatives will abuse it in bad faith’ is, conservatives will absofuckinglutely abuse [blank] in bad faith. Probably whether or not we do it. That part of the objection is real - even if we should still do [blank]. We can only do [blank] in spite of them.
probably true, sadly. but it won’t be the same people group who is calling for it now.
that’s literally all i care about now with this post is we need to stop calling people who are using their civic rights to speak against genocide fascist.
tell them their strategy will backfire, fine, tell them it’s a miscalculation, fine. but don’t just plaster them with the fascism tag. it makes me sick how people trying to do the right thing are getting harrassed.
The incumbent always sweeps
- tell that to trump.
thorough understanding of the uncommitted movement and what u.s. primaries are. there is so much blatant misunderstanding and misinfo going on it’s bad.
yeah I could see this EXCEPT the rhetoric used isn’t likely to be forgotten - labeling him Genocide Joe is just gonna evaporate huh?
This movement is bullshit FUD sprayed right out of the GOP, believe it at your peril. And note that these same fuckwits always attack Biden, but never seem to go after trump, even tho ‘it’s just the primaries bro’.
Willing to bet money that nobody not any measurable amount, is flipping from Biden to trump over his Palestine stance. They are just not going to vote at most or vote PSL or Green
tell that to trump
the incumbent always sweeps in the primary. please fReaking learn to read and digest the post like the rest of us before you type your hate comment dawg please please please 🙏 😭
i could see this except…
i don’t stand by the genocide joe nickname. i do stand by those who do what they can to stop children from starving.
this movement is bullshit FUD
this “bullshit” is doing the bare minimum to get a fucking genocide to end. call it a mistake, fine, call it a miscalculation, fine. stop calling it fascism, FUD, or astroturfing and learn to think for just a half a second that someone might have empathy for human suffering.
learn to think for just a half a second that someone might have empathy for human suffering.
you really think your internet hissy fit blaming Biden for Israel’s genocide is doing more than the actual state department and government?
Damn son, you really don’t understand how the world works at all do you?
It’s FUD. Stop playing their game, or be recognized for doing their work.
