Technically we need to stay in Daylight Savings Time. I.e. what we have now with more light in the evening. We just came from standard time: more light in the morning. We just need to stop changing now.
The data is in, standard time is healthier than daylight savings time.
Citation?
From the cited reference:
Although chronic effects of remaining in daylight saving time year-round have not been well studied, daylight saving time is less aligned with human circadian biology—which, due to the impacts of the delayed natural light/dark cycle on human activity, could result in circadian misalignment, which has been associated in some studies with increased cardiovascular disease risk, metabolic syndrome and other health risks.
Not a study. Just a recommendation. A position statement. There’s no evidence either way.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that the time change sucks. There appears to be a trend of studies that take a position statement on which time is more compatible with human biology meriting more research but that’s going to take time. Meanwhile there’s a mountain of evidence with an overwhelming avalanche of studies that conclude the abrupt time change is fucking dogshit for human biology, mental well being, and energy consumption accelerating climate change. I wish standard time was proven healthier just out of preference, but I’d be fine with just picking a time and sticking with it.
Agreed. I’d prefer daylight time, but stopping the change is absolutely crucial. At the very least it’s just fucking annoying and serves little purpose anymore.
That was just the first link, I can give you more (and I’m certain studies) all day long. It’s really not hard to google.
This is a good point. These position statements treat standard time as though it is synonymous with circadian alignment, which makes some bad assumptions. Fundamentally the bad assumption is that if there is light in the morning people will be exposed to it. Most people go from a curtained bedroom to a windowless office or classroom, and don’t get much sun exposure in the morning whether the sun is up or not. It’s arguable that the only thing that matters is whether the sun’s up during free time, which for most people occurs only in the early evening.
The sun rising even later in the winter is far worse than rising earlier in the summer. It is also giving in to the idea that ‘business hours’, which are lopsided to after noon, needing to drive everyone’s clocks instead of the sun.
9 to 5 or 8 to 5 business hours are the problem. Just make business hours an even 8 to 4 and you have the exact same evening hours as DST but mornings are not any later in the winter than they are with standard time.
You can’t change business hours like that. It would require a lot more of a law to mandate anything of the sort.
I want more evening daylight so I can actually do things after I’m done with work. Changing to DST would make that easier. IDGAF about morning light. Others may want the opposite but I guess they are morning people.
If you’re a morning person, you don’t mind rising earlier, so DST is what you’d want. I’m an evening person, and I find it terrible to wake up at 6:30 while my biological clock says it’s only 5:30.
You can’t write laws for businesses, just for everyone else?
You do know that DST happens in the summer, right?
Yeah, I don’t really understand the concept of needing to save daylight hours during the time of the longest amounts of daylight per day.
Yes. You cannot get a law through Congress that saws all office businesses change their start times. There isn’t a law mandating that now, it’s just convention. The very idea you can make sweeping changes like that without major pushback is silly.
Yes. But in Summer you have MORE light all the time. You don’t have an issue with late sunrise and early sunset in the summer. You have that in winter. And my position is I’d like more sunlight in the evening rather than the morning. That’s it.
You can’t change business hours like that. It would require a lot more of a law to mandate anything of the sort.
Businesses can just change their own hours. Wherever they want. Doesn’t require a law or anything.
All the government has to do is do away with daylight savings, and you can negotiate with your boss for better start/end times for your personal needs.
“You can’t change business hours like that”
Businesses set their hours however they want, they’re private.
I think we’re the seeing the difference in location in the comments lol. People that don’t live with 0 sunlight in winter, because youre at work for those hours, probably don’t understand. It’s actually OK for states to cancel DLS if they convert to standard, but not the spring forward time. I heard that’s why MN can’t change theirs permanently, because they want spring forward time but that’s not legal federally.
Yeah, I’m not even that far north but having sunset before 5pm locally is pretty bad. I’d personally rather have sunrise by 830 rather than 730. The time change just got us sunlight for any amount of time post 6pm.
Same, it’s debilitating! In the middle of winter for me, there’s no helping it, it will always be dark both before and after work. But the first third and last third, I would love some sunlight that’s not at 6-8am. Those times are spent prepping for work so I don’t get to enjoy it, even if I was a morning person.
No, with permanent daylight savings.
Even with the loss of an hour, it’s daylight until 9:30 pm here during the summer. I’m okay with losing an hour. What’s rough is that the sun goes down at 4pm in the winter, even with the gained hour.
It’s the other way around. The hour “gained” (shifted from morning to evening) in the evening is in the summer. Permanent DST would mean sundown at 5pm in the winter for you.
Well that’s just stupid then!
No, they would have been exceedingly logical and rational, and never done anything other than Standard Time, which would have seen local noon line up as close as possible with solar noon.
Because why call it “noon” if it’s more than a half-hour out?
Imagine how fucking complex it would be arrange an appointment with somebody on another planet.
“See you at 11 o clock then?”
“Eh, we’ve only got 10 hours in a day. Spins like a motherfucker.”
The clock starts at 0300 and ends at 1300.
The very first BattleTech novel, Decision at Thunder Rift, tried this.
It’s set on a planet in fairly close orbit of a red dwarf star, so its year lasts three local solar days, and the whole thing takes like four Earth weeks. There’s a whole section near the beginning of the book that explains it.
Most of the rest of the series uses the modern Gregorian calendar.
I mean Starfield, for all its many flaws, tracks local time for your current plant and location and universal time. Didn’t see why that wouldn’t be the standard. Anyone who only interacts locally only knows the one, but most people just always have two clocks that don’t match.
Starfield is an interactive video game, you can render the sun(s) in the sky, hang clocks on the walls, do all kinds of things with GUIs. And the player can look for the information they need at the moment.
Decision at Thunder Rift is a novel. It goes on and on about the orbit of this planet and its effect on the weather, and they still have to convert to days/weeks/months for the benefit of the reader. The very next book doesn’t bother; it’s a direct sequel to the first with the same author and main characters, and I don’t remember it even mentioning the local timekeeping system, other than maybe talking about “long summer evenings” or some such.
By the time you get to the Blood Of Kerensky trilogy every chapter starts with something like “Luthien City, Luthien, Pesht Military District, Darconis Combine. March 12, 3050.” They might occasionally mention “local winter” or something but seldom delve into how the local clocks and calendars work.
Also even though events take place light years apart, it doesn’t bother with stuff like relativity. It’s March 12 everywhere at once.
I’m not sure I understand what point you’re trying to make? Separate clocks like this are so complicated even the Battletech books stopped using them? It’s easier to do environmental storytelling in video games than it is in novels? Just looking for an excuse to talk about sci-fi conventions?
Well kinda looking for an excuse to talk about sci-fi conventions. I mean that’s the entire point of this community, right? to talk about Sci-Fi especially Star Trek?
But I think the broader point I’m trying to make is that Sci-Fi creators realized that creating exotic clocks and calendars isn’t worth it. It’s just a waste of the audiences and the authors time. “We interrupt this exciting action story about a daring dashing young robot tank pilot and his plucky band of mercenaries to bring you a ten page lecture on exochronology.”
Even in a series that tries to be as hard sci-fi as Battletech (no magic, no telepathy, no sentient aliens (okay there was that one time and it’s still technically canon but we don’t talk about that), no god-like aliens etc. everything is science, technology and physics) the authors kind of gave up bothering the audience with how the clocks work on every little planet, other than mentioning “long nights” or something. Star Trek doesn’t do it often either.
Well kinda looking for an excuse to talk about sci-fi conventions. I mean that’s the entire point of this community, right? to talk about Sci-Fi especially Star Trek?
Well why do you think I brought up Starfield?
I like the addition in Starfield, if for no other reason that it shows how unwieldy and difficult it is when it’s easy to implement. Stellaris has a standardized calendar with a 360 day year of 12 30-day months. I don’t think it’s an addition that makes a novel any better usually (they almost never mention toilets, either) but I do think they can add something to a game or even a movie as part of a set piece. I think the stories where it’s a plot detail are… Less engaging.
For all I know, Vulcan revolves around its axis once in exactly 24 hours and thus doesn’t need daylight savings time to keep it sunny at 4pm.
The Earth rotates exactly once every 24 hours by definition. DST is done because of the tilt of the axis, not the spin rate.
I don’t understand why it never occurred to anyone that they could just change the times they do things instead of changing the clock
Technically, that’s sorta what we do… We all agree to make everything one hour off, including the clock.
DST was established in the context of anemic government trying to show extensive reach/control over the economy at a time where it had very little (arguably it still does today but only because most governments have matured to represent their most powerful class). As if to say “We determine the clocks that industry schedules by”
You clearly have never been a farmer
In Canada, one of the biggest farming provinces is also the only one that doesn’t have DST, and they seem to be ok. I think.
That province tried it for one year when it was a new idea, decided it was stupid, and stopped.
One of the few based things Sask has done. Add to the list: producing Diefenbaker, who appointed the first Indigenous Senator and gave all Indigenous people in Canada the right to vote, and Tommy Douglas, who instituted the first ever single payer universal healthcare program in ALL OF NORTH AMERICA in Sask. That then became the basis of the universal health care program we see in Canada today.
Too bad their current government is super regressive and like taking AmeriPol talking points instead of actual effective governance.
Yeah unfortunately none of that stuff was sustainable and that’s why we’re kinda fucked economically. They won’t grow some balls and end it, but they won’t fund it properly either, cause they can’t without making everyone even poorer.
indigenous right to vote and universal healthcare are unsustainable and making everyone poor, and they need the balls to end it? what the fuck dude?
edit: just perused and yeah that’s a full blown nazi. nevermind to whatever they were going to reply with. blocked.
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farmers? the people who have to do things by daylight hours regardless what any authority around them counts as the time? they’re the ones that need daylight saved?
what?
Like I said, you clearly have never been a farmer
LOL explain how pigs and corn give a fuck about what time it is?
very convincing and condescending. now everyone reading is wholly swayed in favor of daylight savings. job well done. farmers need it because people who don’t want it clearly aren’t farmers. brilliant.
It was never about farming, it’s bad for farmers. The farming lobby fought it off for years before the Chamber of Commerce rammed it through, with big assists from the golf and bbq industries. Then Big Candy successfully lobbied to get it extended to include Halloween.
https://qz.com/daylight-savings-time-origin-business-farmers-bbq-golf-1851320679
…Right? Like, if you want daylight at the end of your work day, just start work earlier in the day.
Instead, we have the tyranny of night owls who cannot wake up at a decent hour wanting to move clock noon wildly away from solar noon just to pamper their solipsistic needs.
It would cause disruptions because of business hours inconsistently changing.
You know your suppliers business hours, they don’t change. The clock changes, but your supplier still opens at 9am, you know when you’re working they’re open.
If it were trivial to accomplish individually, then you could tell your boss that after the time change you’ll be coming into the office at 10am instead of 9am and negate any ill effects from the time change. If place of employment is cool with this, then you make this change right now. But most people have to conform to what the rest of their industry is doing.
Pretty sure it did, and would lead to conversations like “Oh by the way boss, for the next 6 months I’ll be coming in an hour late. You guys are cool with flex time, right?”
Me: As long as you leave an hour later why do I give a shit.
Probably why I’m not the boss of anything.
Potato tomato.
You wouldn’t doing the same thing either way so what difference does it make?
I never thought DST was a big deal until I lived somewhere without it, and let me tell you that sunlight from 5 to 8:30 is infinitely better than 4 to 7:30. What percentage of people are awake at 4 vs 5 do you think?
All I’m saying is first light at 3 AM sucks ass
Where was that, because it sounds more like they were in the wrong time zone. (Which happens quite often.)
Japan doesn’t do dst, and when you get to the same latitude as about NYC you get sun times like I mentioned. But even in the states the time zones are pretty broad. New York can have sunset after 8, but Michigan is in the same time zone and the sunset is after 9.
Where I live we have sunlight from 5:20 to 22:00 in summer. This means going to bed while it’s still light outside. We’re actually in the wrong time zone though, the sun is at the highest point somewhere around 14:00 in the summer.
When Vulcans decide to save daylight, they build a Dyson Sphere.
The usefulness of daylight saving very much depends on your latitude. In the winter in the north of Scotland you’d have children walking to school on the pitch black without daylight saving time.
Isn’t that standard time?
I’ve heard that argument before, but really if it’s an issue, just change the school hours. I had to get up and go to school in the dark as a child and really, I was so sleepy the first few classes they were wasted on me anyways.
I live in Belgium (so South of Scotland) and with ST and a 8:30-15:30 schedule the sun has set by the time kids get to their first extracurricular activity (16:30).
As for getting to school, do not worry because kids still get there at night regardless and the sun rises just as the kids get forced inside the classroom underneath the neon lights.
The further North you go the more people pine for permanent DST because it’s our only chance at getting a bit of winter sunlight during our free time (the rush from bed to school/work doesn’t count IMO) and of not wasting summer sunlight at 4 am that is much better used for the 10 pm BBQ.
It’d be GRAND if we got rid of DST and all work/school institutions collectively decided to start an hour earlier in the summer instead. But that’s just DST with extra steps, and we know institutions are anything but flexible so it will never happen.
Permanent ST is my own personal hell. If that ever happens I genuinely think I will go freelance and become a hermit.
I recall reading that in the states the public (official) reasoning was for school children and farming but in reality it was commercial interests that actually linked for the change so there’d be more daylight for shopping after work hours
I regret to inform all of you that it is technically Daylight Saving Time and not Daylight Savings Time and now you must suffer with this information with me
Man i can’t wait to be insufferable in a whole new way! Rather than my suffering you have given me the power of pedantry. And i will use this power for evil
Programmers and engineers everywhere agree. Fuck DST.
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Floridian here. Wtf we finally do something right and vote to stay on DST year round and Congress won’t let it happen? It’s been YEARS that it’s been on the table with Congress. I will give them an excuse for not getting any work done on Hang Mike Pence day, but really this is getting a bit annoying.
Oh boy, here I go posting my favorite YouTube video again: https://youtu.be/-5wpm-gesOY
That is either the video about timezones (btw: fuck timezones, all my homies use UTC) or I’m about to get rick rolled.
Those were both good guesses! I’m genuinely a fan of Rick Astley – have you heard Beautiful Life yet?
If I were gonna rickroll you in this community, though, I’d do it in the original Klingon.
Only UTC all over the world even better
In all honesty i don’t mind daylight savings, since most of the clocks i have that i need to change the time manually are imprecise enough that by the time i need to change the clock they have shifted by a decent amount.
Tldr: for me it also acts as a remider to set my clocks in sync again since they tend to get out of whack after a while.
I just want it to always be DST, I hate getting home after work to only have an hour to take care of things outside before dark.
Yep.
Anyone talking about circadian rhythms is getting woken up by an alarm anyway. Then they’re driving to an artificially lit office.
Its only one hour. I’m not sure why people get so mad. It gives you more daylight in order to get more work done.
Daylight savings time practices have been linked to increases in deadly traffic accidents, workplace injuries, medical errors and overall mortality.
In 2018, researchers in Spain penned a letter that was published in the journal Epidemiology regarding a link between deadly car accidents and daylight savings shifts. After collecting data from capital cities in Spain between 1990 and 2014, the researchers found a 30% increase in fatal traffic accidents on the day clocks sprang forwards. On the day clocks fell backwards, they saw an increase of 16%.
[…]
One of the serious health concerns related to time shifts is acute myocardial infarction, or heart attack. Researchers in Italy wrote a 2018 review published in the journal Internal Emergency Medicine investigating daylight savings’ potential effects on heart health. They reviewed seven existing studies from the United States and Europe looking at more than 80,000 cases of acute myocardial infarction. They found an increase, from 4% to 29%, in heart attacks after clocks sprang forwards.
Incidence of stroke may also increase after a clock shift. For a 2016 study published in the journal Sleep Medicine, researchers in Finland investigated the connection. They analysed more than 3,000 hospitalizations from 2004 to 2013 that occurred in the week following seasonal clock changes. They next compared those cases to a control group of 11,000 expected hospitalizations. The findings showed that hospitalizations for ischaemic stroke, the most common type, increased by 8% in the two days following a daylight savings shift. When looking at the whole week post-shift, the increase was 3%. The association was stronger for people assigned female at birth and those who were older.
All this evidence is against time shifts, not against daylight time. The click shifts are undeniably bad, but the evidence against permanent DST is weak.
Oh yeah totally. Sorry, I thought your comment was arguing to retain the switch. Permanent DST is exactly where we should go.
Which is why we should leave it on during the winter too.
I’m getting plenty of work done without adjusting my clocks thank you.
This would be a Warhammer 40K thing.
On all ships of the Imperium, using complex mathematics and ancient tomes to achieve synchronisation across the galaxy and even inside the warp, the clocks are changed by one hour twice a year, in an elaborate ritual.
No one dares ask the reason behind it, but it must be done, to appease the machine god.
