Dutch people must not have many steep hills.
or sharp corners
We certainly do in the UK and I’ve seen people pulling Caravans up them with their cars. Maybe Europeans are just better drivers than yanks?
Yanks are so accustomed to the idea that “more litres = more torque” that they actually can’t imagine the amount of engineering that’s gone in to smaller more efficient European and Japanese engines.
≈1hp per cc is pretty standard in modern cars but why invest in all that engineering when you can pour cheap gasoline down the throat of your 5 litre V8?
The most popular pickup truck in the US is commonly bought with either a 2.7 liter turbo or 3.5 liter turbo v6, I think you’re a bit behind the times.
In 2018, the average engine in the UK was 1.61L, in 2022 in the US it is 3.42L (literally over twice the capacity), but yh, it’s me that’s behind the times.
Edit: Imagine getting down voted because someone doesn’t like the data. No rebuttle, no counter data, nothing to show my data might be wrong, just burying it because you don’t like it lmao
You’re the one who pointed put the five liter v8 not me.
It’s called hyperbole. Although I wouldn’t say that it’s an extreme exaggeration, the sentiment remains.
And you’re still wrong. Most new cars in the US (other than sports cars) are using small turbocharged four cylinders. But keep trying to act like you know anything about cars in the US, it’s fun to watch.
You wouldn’t believe it, but they routinely haul these over major alpine passes. Works well on climbs, but sharp corners and switchbacks require careful handling, causing everyone else a bit of grief.
Don’t worry, we’ll even tow them to and trough Norway.
Yes, going 50 km/h on a 80 km/h road with 300 cars behind them. 😄
That’s about half a trainload of people in all those cars. Sidenote: trains very rarely get held up by slow moving traffic.
Where do you hitch a camper to a train?
You can also camp without a camper, just carry a tent with you.
The don’t… but the neighboring countries do. That’s where this caravan is going
I had a 2005 Camry which broke down last year, so I replaced it with a 2015 Mazda 5. The towing section of the manual for the Camry said something along the lines of “Well, this car is not really intended for towing, but if you must use it for that, here’s what you have to do…”. For the Mazda, the manual just says that it is not recommended to use the car for towing at all.
The question isn’t “can you”, but “should you”.
An engine that’s always working at near it’s maximum capacity will fail long before an engine that’s working at a quarter of it’s capacity. Most people wouldn’t dream of constantly running their engine bouncing off the red line of rev limiter. The same applies to towing; if you frequently tow large, heavy loads (for instance, earth moving equipment), you want to get a vehicle that’s rated for much higher tonnage than the weight you’ll regularly be towing. Given that campers are usually very light weight (but only slightly more aerodynamic than a brick), you can get away with towing on in a car infrequently. You should probably not do it daily.
You may also find that it’s less fuel efficient to tow a heavy load in a small-ish car than the same load in a light truck.
(BTW - I’m generally opposed to taking vacations in this way. I prefer my vacations on a motorcycle, or on foot with a backpack. I’m not currently in the kind of shape I would need to be in in order to do bicycle camping.)
Edit: I don’t have a truck. It’s cheaper for me to rent one on the rare occasions that I need one than it is to buy one and deal with the associated costs of owenership. That said, the Home Depot rental trucks suck, because they’re solely RWD, and they have no grip on my road unless there’s a literal ton of weight in the back.
Nobody complains about big cars whilst they’re towing, and if they were doing it everyday you would see them… well… everyday towing, but they typically are not.
Fuel efficiency that you lose whilst towing you would gain on the other 99% of your kms.
Yep. There is one guy in town with a private pickup. I wonder what he is shopping for in the bakery when his F150 blocks two parking lots.
I live in a country where everyone buys used cars from western Europe and it’s semi-common knowledge among car people that you should avoid Dutch cars with tow hitches (and the used car yards that bring their cars from Holland tend to have the worst reputation).
That said, if you only tow heavy loads maybe a thousand, tow thousand kilometers a year, it doesn’t really matter. It’s prolonged heavy towing that kills the small car.
Anyway, my midsize diesel car can tow way more than I personally am legally allowed to and I prefer throwing a tent in the trunk to towing a camper, so my car sees maybe <500 km of light-weight towing a year and under a metric ton you can barely feel the hit to fuel efficiency or performance (because diesel torque is ridiculous)
(for instance, earth moving equipment)
That’s quite some reach.
Any time I’ve needed an earth mover, it was always delivered? Who’s out there picking up a earth movers themselves?
Really? Home Depot and Sunbelt Tool Rental doesn’t deliver around here. You have to pick that shit up yourself, and they will check the gross towing weight before they’ll let you hook up. I’ve towed a wood chipper from Sunbelt with a Civic, and it was pretty much the maximum that the car would tow.
Sorry, when I hear earthmover I think backhoe, grader, skid steer, not wood chipper.
Regardless, sounds like your civic met the need instead of a RAM 2500 super-duty?
Well, except for the part where then engine skipped timing and died a terrible death few months later. So, I dunno, did it really meet my need? Or was the engine failure purely coincidental? I do know that the mountain roads around here are pretty rough on cars in general; towing at your max capacity while going up a steep grade probably isn’t very good for an engine.
Renting a truck would have been far, far cheaper than what I spent replacing the engine.
I don’t know your car, it’s possible. I’m not here to judge people on their needs analysis, I’m here to judge people for not doing a needs analysis.
The point is people should buy vehicles based on needs not wants. The chance of maybe towing a thing up a hill one time in a 15 year vehicle lifetime is probably not a satiasficing for a vehicle that’s primarily used to travel 8.7km each way for a commute and a 1.8km round trip for groceries 5.43 times per month. (Canadian figures).
The people who deliver them?
I don’t any earthmovers, that’s a real high cap item; everyone I know who owns one has a specific job/jobs for it, and it’s always a skid steer.
I’m more generalist and I’d need to own a fleet to cover any given project.
Edit: I think I misread this. The equipment comes on a flatbed with a tractor, not on a pickup.
They do have a real truck, not a pickup and a trailer.
Only very few people regularly pull caravans. I worked for one, but he a) sold caravans and b) had the car to pull them.
True, but the reason in the US is different is because of laws.
Yeah, a lot of laws seem to favor trucks in the US. The vehicles aren’t different, the laws and regulations are.
Well, the US has the best democracy money can buy, and someone paid a lot to make the worst kind of cars the de facto standard.
Me and my family used to go camping. We always towed with my father’s car.
WhoAreYouTalkingTo.gif
That said, I am not aware of a single person who thinks you can’t tow with a car (so long as it has the little hitch plug thing… or you are a dumbass kid with some rope).
What I assume you mean in this pro cars post is: People think you need a giant pickup truck or an SUV. And that is closer to accurate. Except those people buy their giant vehicles with the dream of towing or hauling but never would for fear of ruining their paint job or getting dirt on the bed.
This seems not very fuck cars but ok. Also who does not know you can tow with a car?
In my personal American experience, there’s a general notion that you need a pickup truck to tow anything; there’s so much marketing about how big tough pickup trucks can tow so much stuff and you really need this. So I think the implication of this post is less of a “fuck cars” and more of a “fuck trucks in particular”
AI drive a compact SUV (a glorified hatchback with a raised wheelbase), and took a trailer to cover the western US for my vacation this year, but looking at the vehicle in the post: The only way that works because the car drives at sea level with no grade. I had a trailer, with brakes, ~150 lbs below of my car’s recommended towing capacity, and coming over some passes sounded like I was taking thousands of miles off my car’s transmission.
I’ve seen Golfs towing caravans over the Alps. Only Americans seem to need a truck for that.
I use my old 3/4 ton all the time it is great for yard work and getting stuff (big things not like groceries). But I would never think of using it to commute or move people. I think people get sold on these trucks being all big and powerful but they always seem to use them like a minivan, and a minivan also can tow things.
Americans, which is how this post got started. Over on the site that shall remain nameless, one guy unironically told me that I might be able to tow a 150lbs. sailboat with my bicycle on flat ground, but to go up hills would require his truck. Anecdotally, I know a couple who bought a Ford Model F truck to tow a 700lbs. sailboat, because it takes a truck to tow things, despite the total weight of the boat and trailer being less than half the rated capacity for a Honda Civic.
Is yours a geared cycle? I’m pretty sure a cycle frame can carry ~150 kg, but the brakes and your legs might have issues. Like I can carry a 60 kg friend on my (ungeared) cycle on flat roads. But going uphill would definitely be hard, and downhill might be dangerous.
Yes, I have an 8-speed IGH, and a cargo trailer for my bike that’s rated for 90kg (200lbs). It adds braking distance, but standard rim brakes handle it fine. To haul a Laser sailboat would take a special trailer, because they’re about 4 meters long. It’d be a workout, but eminently possible.
Thanks, that makes sense!
I think this is in response to stupid large truck vs kei truck thread that made the front page. All the car brains are going on about how everyone ever needs a stupid large truck to tow 85 boats at once
I mean this kind of mentality serves me well in Kerbal, but…
That thread was specifically telling craftspeople that they could do their jobs with the little Kei truck rather than a larger one.
If you use your truck for actual work, you want it to be able to do the job. The Kei truck cannot do the same job as the big truck.
It was a stupid comparison. It’s like telling someone that they don’t need a bucket truck to work on overhead lines or do tree trimming, they can just use a ladder hauled around in a Kei truck. See? Stupid as fuck.
No, the correct post to make would have been to point out the obvious fact that 95% of those huge trucks sold are not used for any sort of work at all, they’re just expensive and obnoxious fashion statements.
Funny, though, that in Europe, nearly nobody drives a pickup truck. Not even craftspeople. In this city, I’ve seen one (one!) private pickup, two used by the cities greens department, one by the forest department, and one by a gardening company (and they are a big gardening company, but they have real trucks for most of the work).
You are completely correct I was essentially trying to move along the conversation from the last post.
It’s a good way to go. Some people may be unable to imagine not having a car but they may be able to go with a smaller car. It’s the car equivalent of going vegetarian 2 days a week.
I would love to go car free but it’s basically impossible where I live due to lack of other viable options.
Oh you mean those 4 door vans that are passed off as a truck? Yeah no one should get those, they can’t even tow all that well and what can you even use a 4 foot bed for? These are likely the same people that think you should get a $130k 5th wheel that is 32 feet long.
But I need it to compensate for my shockingly small penis.
Body shaming is stupid.
Alright, shockingly small penis energy.
Might I suggest instead firearms?
I would be mounting unnecessarily large firearms inside of my equally unnecessarily large truck, with a rear window sticker that says “Come And Take It”
As one does, perfectly normal and all.
And that’s how American criminals get their guns…
More often taken from people they know rather than stolen from strangers, I believe, but also yes.
While you don’t need a massive truck to tow things, I also can’t recommend towing with a VW Golf. Towing isn’t just pulling a trailer, it’s also stopping a trailer, keeping it steady at speed, and having a transmission that can handle it and keep temps in check. Longer wheelbases do help with stability at speed and sports brakes aren’t built for towing.
When I see how much crap is driving on American roads that would have been taken off the road in Europe in under a New York Second, and see how much tighter road safety regulations are in Europe, I’d say rest assured that all of this has been taken into account. Road safety is similar to many other market issues that in Europe, safety comes way before profit.
Surely no one has ever thought of that /s
The problem isn’t that no one’s thought of those things. The problem is that in Countries like the US and UK (and I’m assuming everywhere else, but maybe not) you can tow up to 7500lbs with a standard license. Last time I took my test I don’t recall them asking about towing or making me do it with a trailer. We build systems for the lowest common denominator but honestly vehicle towing is kind of a cluster fuck of “well they can drive a car, how much worse could they be with an extra 15ft and thousands of pounds behind them.” ¯_(ツ)_/¯
and I’m assuming everywhere else
Yeah, I’ve noticed.
You need a towing license for anything heavier than 750kg. Europe and surroundings are like that. For any trailer heavier than 750kg, you need to pass an exam and get a license, no matter what’s towing it, be it truck or car and that’s the way it should be, heavy trailer behaves differently regardless what’s towing it. Then again, if this would apply everywhere we wouldn’t have so many funny videos of people fucking up their boats and similar. So carry on.
By the way, categories:
But there are still a lot of people on the road that did learn to drive before that kind of license. I did a class 3 license in Germany right before the transition…
So I have my A, A1, AM, B, BE, C1, C1E license (C1E limited to 7,5t instead of 12) without ever having learned to tow anything.
You are right. Not sure why they did the transition like that. My father has all those and higher even though he hasn’t driven a truck for decades now. But it will eventually get better.
At least where I am from, you are allowed to tow heavy trailers (>750 kg) with a B drivers license, if both the car and the trailer combined weigh less than 3.5 t. Light trailers (<750 kg) can be towed by any vehicle up to 3.5 t with a B license. If the combined rated weight is above 3.5 t you need a BE license as well and you have to drive slower.
I don’t know a lot about cars, but we used to go caravanning as a kid and my stepdad would always use a long, reasonably-powerful car to tow it. And come to think of it, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one being towed by a hatchback (and we get a lot of caravans on the road here in the UK)
You can bet your ass that if it’s certified to pull a certain weight in Europe, all these things have been taken into account.
What’s the test? Any videos and documentations of these tests?
Thank you! This is more or less what I’m looking for. It’s in German and my German is rusty at best, but I’m glad they’re more specific. Since both are in German is this specific to Germany or EU as a whole? I was digging through the UKs rules which referenced some EU regulations. It sounds like somewhere around the late 90s trailer brakes became mandated per wheel. Which is obviously vastly different from here in the states where it’s kind of an “ehhhhh, good luck.” But at the same token it had me curious if the test is in the same consistent area with consistent factors at play. The SAE here in the states has created a new standard for the US, but it also isn’t used by the manufacturers which plays a big part in our usage of trailers and how we tow and haul here.
It’s EU, so it’s available in every language.
Also, am not from EU, but my country is in process of accession. Our laws are already being aligned with EU. I think traffic laws are already there. Many other countries just copy these laws since they consider them good.
Easy Google search shows this car should not be pulling a travel trailer.
Motorcycle trailer, sure. But basically best case scenario this trailer is at it’s tow capacity, which does not give much wiggle room for failure.
But most likely it’s quite past the tow capacity. It’s tow capacity is 2000kg/4400lbs. A travel trailer’s dry weight is already close to that. If it was a pop up camper that’d be one thing, but this is a full dead ass travel trailer. It’s probably around 5000lbs, and who knows what’s stuffed in the back. This is a safety issue.
Quick edit: this is not to say you need to own an F150 for the one time a year you do this, but maybe rental?
It’s also possible to have cars modified to increase towing capacity. I’m not saying this particular car has had that done. But you do see a lot of Dutch towing trailers in Germany. I’ve never heard of anything bad happening, other than them clogging the fucking motorways with their slow ass jalopies.
Idk someone else in this thread said that it’s kinda a rule in the EU not to buy a used Dutch car with a trailer hitch
Glad someone said it. Just because you can pull something doesn’t mean you can stop or maintain pulling said thing. That being said yeah I agree you don’t always need a truck.
In Europe, it would not get a rating for a certain weight if it was not able to safely handle and stop it.
If the car is rated for towing the weight of the trailer, of course it can stop it. That’s what the authorities are going to test, among other things, before greenlighting a car with those specifications.
They’ll test it for the weight, however it’s important to understand the testing cycle. Were the tests only setup on flat ground? Did they adequately test braking? Did they ride the brakes for a while? Is there a difference between haulable weight with trailer brakes vs without? It’s also important to note that in the US tow ratings are setup by the manufacturer… which means that numbers are super subjective and simply a circle jerk of who is willing to legally put a larger number on the vehicle.
All the new 3/4 ton trucks can tow more than US drivers with a class C license in most states could legally carry. The numbers are kind of useless IMO.
As far as I know, the maximum unbraked trailer mass is 750kg in Europe, although for some cars it can be lower.
With a braked trailer the limit is up to the manufacturer (and your driver’s license).
Thank you! How long has the trailer brake been common/mandated over that size in Europe? I tried looking it up but the closest I could find was some UK government website mentioning the 90s (or maybe early 2000s).
Will they test it? Absolutely! Every year when I extend registration on vehicle everything gets tested on a car. Vehicle must pass technical exam which lasts some 40minutes. Breaks are tested the longest among other things. They measure not only breaking force but consistency, elongation of disks if you have them, everything.
Of course there are still people out there who don’t maintain their vehicle properly after that exam, but at least once a year it has to be in tip top shape. Also if you have a towing hook by new regulation it has to be tested as well and removable. It’s actually illegal to drive with it if you are not towing anything, since it effectively negates crumple zones.
People are constantly complaining about how strict these rules here are, but I don’t. They save lives.
Thank you, thank you! 100% here in California we have incredibly strict emissions testing, but absolutely ZERO maintenance checks. Which is more of what I worry about since there’s loads of vehicles on the road that have balding tires, abysmal brakes and cracks all over the glass. We’re somehow one of the few states without this kind of testing even though our vehicles need a bi-annual emissions test.
Also, definitely wish people had to remove their tow hitch here in the states. Loads of people’s drive with them in and nothing on it. They’re shin busters on sidewalks.
They’ll test it for the weight, however it’s important to understand the testing cycle. Were the tests only setup on flat ground? Did they adequately test braking? Did they ride the brakes for a while?
Well, it seems that you are not familiar with European road safety testing and certification. My BIL was working in that area, and his executive summary of that was: if it passes European tests, you can sign the American test papers, too, as it would pass them with flying colors.
And yet, the Golf is rated for up to 2,000kg in the UK (a select few Diesel models), and a 1,200-1,600kg range is typical for many other editions of that model. That’s for a trailer with its own brakes, of course. When I had a trailer with electric brakes, I could stop the whole rig with just the brake controller. I towed that trailer with an S10 Blazer, which had a wheelbase only 4 inches longer than the Golf. The trick was to load it with enough tongue weight that stability was not a problem, rather than relying on a hefty vehicle to overcome sway. I never had a problem with transmission temperatures when keeping the trailer weight under the rated capacity of the vehicle, but an aftermarket oil cooler can always be fitted.
That’s for a trailer with its own brakes, of course.
You won’t find a trailer in the EU without its own breaks over 750kg. At least not a legal one.
I find it very strange that Americans consider ‘trucks’ and ‘cars’ to be two separate things. Trucks are cars.
By law they are separate and distinct. Trucks are subject to less environmental regulations (emissions, mpg) are allowed to not conform as closely to automobile standards (the reason why you see trucks with the hood above the height of small children, and you need a stepladder to climb in) and also have to pass different crash tests to be considered “road safe” (a truck only has to not annihilate another truck in a crash test, but crash tests aren’t done with say a truck and a motorcycle, or a truck and a small car)
Yes, they have the law tailored to actually prefer gas guzzlers over normal cars. And less need to care for the drivers or the environments safety.
I don’t think it works that way anywhere outside the US. Anyways, shouldn’t it be trucks and ‘other’ cars?
Yeah, I was typing this up from the perspective of US laws. I would hope that it doesn’t work that way anywhere else! It is crazy here, haha But yes, it probably should be trucks and ‘other’ cars.
I have a stupid large truck that can tow boats at 85 (2013 tundra stock) to tow the family camper and I keep that bad boy under 65 when towing and always drive like a kid is going to run out in front. Sure I could drive a kei truck and would fucking love it, however my truck is the smallest in height that I could have gotten that could pull the weight I needed (and if possible I’ll make it shorter). Fuck paying the stupid prices at hotels and airbnbs, I camp with my towable home for $30-$80 a night.
The excuse for buying these compensators is they need them to tow. And yet I’ve rarely seen one ever used to tow. I saw this juxtaposition in my local area:
It’s so big, he could probably just put the horse in the glove compartment.
That’s not a truck, it’s an obnoxious fashion statement.
At the same time, I’ve seen trucks just like that (maybe not as long) towing flatbed trailers with literal tons of stuff on the back. The sort of shit you need a forklift or tractor to load and unload. I’ve also seen those same forklifts and tractors on trailers.
The thing is, I live way out in the boonies, so that shit is common to see.
This same truck in any sort of city is an obnoxious fashion statement. It’s all about location.
FTFY: That’s not a truck, it’s an obnoxious
fashioncompensation for lack of dick statement.
Cars and trucks can fuck off, and most pick-up truck owners are fooling themselves by buying into a lifestyle they don’t actually live, but I still would not recommend towing any significant distance with a Golf. You can tow with a hatchback, but it’s not really that safe and your speed is very limited, making you a huge annoying moving obstacle for the rest of us cursed to live in this world designed for cars.
Why is it not safe? If the manufacturer rates the Golf for towing 2000 kg, it is capable of doing so safely.
Speeds while towing in Europe are lower. 100 km/h is the maximum, but many trailers are only rated for 80 km/h and some countries also have lower speed limits for towing in general.
You are therefore traveling the same speed as trucks (up to 90 km/h) and buses (up to 100 km/h). Buses and trucks have mandatory speed limiters since a couple of decades and therefore never drive faster than those speeds.
There are more differences between European and American towing setups. You can look at my other reply, if you want. ;)
My neighbour tows his caravan with a Mini and my brother tows gliders with a Suzuki Swift.
Golfs are plenty strong.
but it’s not really that safe
Funny though, that European regulatory bodies consider it safe, and they are actually stricter than their American counterparts.
My people out east can teach you something.
Does it count as a motorized vehicule?
There’s definitely an engine, i think that checks out
that’s a much better set up !
Just make sure it’s rated for the load you’re towing and whatever works.
Of course, otherwise you get a fine for endangering traffic.
But that’s the point. The same exact same vehicle rated in Europe will not have any rating in the US and they will tell you how you need a truck to tow.
I’ve found a tow rating for almost any car I’ve had, at least the past 15 years.
Aw man, no way 50 horses could pull this, gotta have at least 500.
But will it pull a camper for two that actually sleeps 10 at 85 mph up hill in a 65 mph speed zone?
no no it’s a 55 cuz it’s the interstate and it designed for you to safely drive 100
Out of experience: yes, but illegally.
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I’m nearly certain that camper is way over that car’s tow capacity. If so this is dangerous and stupid. Drivers like this, who endanger everyone else even near the road for their inability to use common sense, should be banned from society.
This absolutely isn’t uncommon in Europe.
Every single caravan in Europe looks like this. That is the point of the post. From what I have understood so far, either American cars are intentionally built worse so that a much bigger car is needed for the same weight or car salesmen just lie about how big you need your car to be.
This is a completely normal towing setup for Europe, nothing out of the ordinary. No one would even question it, since this is how “everyone” tows in Europe. This is legal and safe.
You can look at Google Street View and you will see that most caravans are being towed by hatchbacks, wagons and (crossover) SUVs.
It probably would be in the US, but laws and regulations are different in Europe. The US favors huge heavy towing vehicles and higher tongue weights to allow for higher speeds, Europe limits speeds and allows for normal cars and more balanced trailers. We also have lower speed limits for semi-trailers and similar vehicles, so they fit right in.
The caravan looks to be a Wilk Sento, which has a maximum weight of 1300-1500kg depending on the model. The car is a Mk. 7 Golf, rated for towing 1300-2000kg depending on the model. This person could have opted for the cheapest Golf and most expensive caravan, filled the caravan to the brim and then you’d be right. But I think it’s more likely that this is perfectly safe and you’re just making snap judgements.
Nope, wrong. That the American regulations are biased to discourage normal cars to tow is not a safety issue, it is just the result of successful lobbying of the American car industry.
![[image] Since many people seem to believe you can't tow with cars, here's roughly what dutch people end up doing on vacation.](https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/ea1db421-ccea-4e3d-af37-aec9b3e62de4.jpeg){kind=link}