greatness and freedom™
And UNO is the avatar that they won’t allow to exist. Or their fake avatar.
Not sure how a card game played by children has a resemblance to the Avatar.
played by children
Are you calling me a child?? /j
Yes. Not more internet for you until you’ve finished your homework.
:P
It’s a not uncommon theme in anime: some large imperialist/war nation or one associated with fire or occupying Japan.
It’s also worth noting that Japan had a history of imperialism and occupied a significant portion of the world around them not too long ago.
Japan has a pretty similar world view to us. I don’t know a lot about Japanese culture, but I think a lot of its similarities contribute to anime’s popularity in the US. We both have pretty rigid class structures, appreciate violence and capitalism and are enamored with technology.
I know that Avatar is American, perhaps I just wanted to air out a pet theory, however I think it’s good for us to explore some of these assumptions with art and stories.
I think most of us aren’t the baddies though.
Avatar is American, but it had fantastic cultural consultants.
Japan has a similar worldview to Americans because there’s been multiple points in history where we brute forced our ways on them, conveniently at times where their old ways were losing faith.
Forcing Japans borders open while they remained isolated with outdated weaponry, and the end of WW2.
Capitalism was drilled into their culture until it’s teeth sunk in and they had their economic boom.
Japan went from feudalism to an emerging modern industrialized state in what, 40 years? Industrial Revolution speedrun.
The irony of a diverse set of people from around the world talking about an American cartoon and in the same breath saying that American only knows war is not lost on me
The US cultural victory’d so hard that it’s hard to recognize it sometimes
To be fair Not all fire nation citizens are bad either
Usually when there’s a imperialistic government it’s very rarely every citizens fault
A comforting/not comforting thought
I sort of believe that the vast majority of whoever from wherever would happily get along, but we still have wars.
Yeah the fire nation has way more similarities to Imperial Japan than anyone else. Island nation industrializes before their neighbours and just starts taking over. Style of dress, the archesticure, the names of the characters, all give a Japan vibe way more than an American vibe. But maybe drinking tea in a ceremonial fashion is something that’s part of American culture that I wasn’t aware of.
But currently the US is protecting global trade from pirates and sending weapons to democracies defending themselves from authoritarian psychopaths, which to some people is exactly how the Fire Nation behaved in Avatar I guess.
We have stopped sending weapons to Ukraine but have continued sending weapons to Israel.
Nothing about what you describe as is cut and dry as you are describing it. The easiest way to protect global trade from pirates would be to stop using global trade to arm psychopaths.
So your solution is just to do whatever the psychopath Houthis tell us to do?
Neville Chamberlain tried a policy of appeasement, it didn’t work. And when you’re thinking that psychopaths that attack civilians working on a commercial cargo ship are the good guys, your world view is really messed up.
If attacking civilians is the mark of psychopathology then the US does a good job of arming such nations. What the Houthis are doing is not happening in a vacuum. They have a history of resisting regimes propped up by the US. Does that make them saints? No. But we’re not any better.
I agree, it’s not happening in a vacuum. The Houthis are doing the old fascist plot of blaming the Jews to gain power. We’ve seen it all before. This is what the biggest losers in history do again and again.
A movement under a flag of “Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews”, is a movement based on hate and it’s destruction is inevitable. Attacking global shipping is just them speeding up the timetable, but the end result was always going to be the same.
A lot of antisemitism mixed with a feeling of religious exceptionalism has resulted in hate movement in Yemen that thinks they won’t go the same way as similar movements in the past. They’re wrong.
The guys trying to stop a genocide are the good guys. I do have some criticisms of them, but any actions that decrease the ability to carry out genocide is a net positive.
Is your point that the outcome justifies the means? I feel the need to point out that this statement is dangerous, and statements like it have been used to justify evil acts.
You know what else is dangerous? Giving a genocidal state more weapons.
What the fuck?
Nowhere in my statement did I defend giving Israel weapons, this is a position I am strongly against.
My point in writing that comment was to point out that using fascist rhetoric is bad, no matter who is saying it. I support the Palestinians, but I would not support dropping nukes on Israel. Stating that any means would be justified gives the other side ammunition to attack you (and others with similar views as you) with.
“Any means” is the same reasoning the USA used when nuking Japan. And it’s the same reasoning that is currently being used to kill innocent civilians in the Gaza strip.
And most of this critique of empire is completely lost in Legend of Korra. A show that does nothing to reconcile the past with the present. Instead it preaches literal horseshoe theory as the over arching message of the show.
"what did Amon want? Equality for all. Unalaq? He brought back the spirits. And Zaheer believed in freedom. […] The problem was, those guys were totally out of balance and they took their ideologies too far. " - Toph, EP 43, “The Calling”
Each of these villains, including the final one, Kuvira, represent a kind of ideological boogie man.
- Amon is the minority rights Boogie Man, he espoused the ideals of equality. One could interpret him as the white genocide boogie man but there is little evidence of any kind of true class division between bender’s and non-benders. A shallow caricature at best.
- Unalaq was the religion or spirituality boogie man, or could be interpreted as the “return to tradition” boogie man.
- Zaheer is the anarchist boogie man.
- Kuvira is the totalitarian dictator aka Communist boogie man.
At no point in the show does Korra have to struggle against any of these ideas and combat them in any ideological way. They are all metaphorical punching bags. Each of them “to extreme” to allow to exist. Each contrasted against each other as though they were equals.
Republic City stands at the center of the show as the only constant and good political organization. A representative democracy. Tied explicitly to Aang to drive the point home, if you had any doubt’s about its goodness. A stand in for America with its own statue of liberty.
In the end, the heir to the Earth Kingdom Monarchy gives up his throne to install a representative democracy in the Earth Kingdom. The result of this shallow attempt at writing leaves the shows saying almost nothing at all. It’s as if it was written to tell 13 year olds that their anarchist or communist curiosities are misguided and simply a phase.
The whole overarching theme of the two series is totally different.
ATLA is about restoring peace from an objectively big-bad. It’s a story of perseverance and self-improvement. And it’s about recognizing and correcting mistakes…Aang, in saving the world after he abandoned it; and Zuko’s entire story arc.
Contrast that with Korra (which Nick studios really messed up). There was not supposed to be more than one season, initially. And they ruined the last season (or two, I think) by rushing it out as an online exclusive.
If you have to pick a theme for Korra, though, it’s about balance and nuance. None of the big bads are objectively totally bad. They all have redeeming factors and all of them, you could say, are somewhat right. But, as you said, they go too far.
Even towards the end as Korra has the mercury poisoning and PTSD and depression, it’s about inner balance and harmony. Honestly, mental health is a huge topic for a kids show to try to tackle, and they did it wonderfully.
But, as you said, they go too far.
They don’t “go too far”, they do things outside of their intended ideological character because the liberal showrunners need to make them unsympathetic again.
Yes this is exactly my point. Zaheer is a vague shadow that represents Anarchist ideology. He says he wants to bring “Chaos” to the world because somehow that is a preferable world state to order. Except Anarchism isn’t about “chaos” or “lawlessness” its about building horizontal organizations instead of vertical ones. Its about dismantling unjust hierarchies and being vigilant in your critical view of hierarchies. I’m not even an anarchist and I understand that much. Even if I’m talking out the side of my mouth, I’m being more generous then the show.
At no point is Zaheer interested in sticking around to educate the Earth Kingdom citizens in how to reorganize their society in a more ethical and equitable way. He just wants to do wacky disruptive assassination while quoting vaguely Zen Buddhist philosophy about detachment from worldly possessions.
Kuvira is attempting to restore “order” as a result of Zaheer’s Chaos, and they paint her as an “authoritarian” as if her actions are some how philosophically different then Zaheer’s, who enforced his own authority over the Earth Kingdom by killing the Queen. She has no “ideology”. She’s not trying to build an Earth Kingdom ruled by the proletariat. She’s not trying to build a Fascist Earth Kingdom bent on exploiting its citizens for capital gains. None of that is explicitly stated. They simply drag out every anticommunist trope and have her do them all.
- reeducation camps
- forced labor camps
- forced starvation
- one party rule as a smoke screen for her singular authority (part of the deal with Yi was the governor would stay in place under Kuvira’s “supervision”)
Again, it’s a shallow exploration of these “ideologies” or worldviews, it’s clear the writers had no intention of understanding them or struggling against them.
But also what is to say about the first season and equality? That equality can “go to far” or that behind every equality leader there is an evil intention? Are we to then look at the equal rights movement and ponder in what ways it went “to far”? Should we look at people like Malcolm X and say they were the Aamon in this situation? We should be skeptical of equality movements? At no point do they address the concerns of the non benders who clearly believed they were second class citizens. Was there a kernel of truth there or did the inequality only exist in their brain washed minds? Which is something people say to minorities today, that there is no inequality it’s just your bad mindset…
I disagree. Most Americans know we are the fire nation/empire from Star Wars.
Well at least most people I know.
I think we’re more like the Alliance from Firefly.
Most people are just trying to go about their day-to-day, and the war and major imperialism was done a long time ago. Now there are a few in the government who keep doing evil shit, but for the most part it’s a big useless bureaucracy.
the war and major imperialism was done a long time ago.
This is literally a myth that papers over their current warmongering and imperialism
That people don’t know about because it isn’t covered in the media unless you actively look for that info. So it might as well have happened a long time ago
I thought the Empire in Star Wars was supposed to be Third Reich Germany. They literally both have “stormtroopers.”
Originally i would agree but i am referencing how things are today as that’s what the meme is referencing.
If you asked Americans today if they are the rebels or the empire the folks I know concede that we are the empire. We are the ones going into other peoples home towns with military occupation.
Fair. I was mostly thinking about it from the perspective of what the writers had intended at the time.
You forgot the important part
“And they’re proud of it”
It’s crazy how military families are so into being in the military, out how proud they are of being Marines, etc. They’re literally doing the governments dirty work.
The question is: why would they be proud of being marines?
I mean, marines are the cannon fodder in every alien invasion movie, so, with that knowledge, that military branch is composed of useless moving targets.
Propaganda. Lots and lots and lots of propaganda.
Propaganda about being the first line to get sacrificed in every alien invasion? Lol
I don’t know if you’ve lived in rural America, but I have, and the fast track to quasi-celebrity status out there is to join the Marines or get KIAd. Americans have been heavily propagandized about making the great and noble sacrifice to “defend the country”.
I live in south americA
Yeah, the US, particularly rural US, has been propagandized an absolutely ridiculous amount. Being seen to sacrifice or die for the empire is seen as a glorious thing both in and for your community.
Self sacrifice for family/church/country is a big part of their hero’s journey narrative.
Very true.
Most people you know seem a lot more aware than the average American in my experience
So…sure we are the baddies, but it’s OK because America?
No, not okay. The monkey puppet reaction.
We are not shocked to learn we are the bad guys. I never said it’s okay, I just disagree with the reaction meme to indicate we didn’t know it.
Not sure where you pulled “it’s okay because America” from my statement but no need to jump to conclusions and put words in peoples mouth.
He pulled it from nowhere because tankies are incapable of nuance, especially if you hold an even mildly dissenting opinion. You’re either with them or against them, there is no in-between. It’s ironic how much they share in common with actual fascists.
Enlightened 40Kism, we know we are the bad guys, cause there are no good guys, just worse villians.
What is 40Kism?
In Warhammer 40K, the Imperium of Man are awful, but they’re the ‘good guys’ because they’re human, any every other species is even more awful and would wipe humanity out given the chance
That is what new players/readers are told, sure.
Tau wouldn’t and doesn’t exterminate. On the other hand they may or may not brainwash their populace.
Tau?
Ah yes you can join our ‘Greater Good’ if you volunteer to be our slaves and castrate yourself. Also if you change your mind and try to leave we’ll kill you.
But less bad than the imperium, no?
Space Dawi
Most of the independent human systems doing just fine without the Imperium tyvm
Eldar
Some Necrons, maaaaybe. It’s hard to tell with them sometimes.
Hrud mostly seem to just want to be left alone.
A lot of aliens just chilling
Fun Fact: the Imperium doesn’t actually span most of the galaxy. Nor do they really “control” the area around their systems.
Because of how FTL works in 40k, some areas just aren’t accessible to them. There’s a full on insectoid empire called the Q’orl near Terra that they didn’t have access to or know about until the Warp currents shifted.
And apparently their technology is even enough to be a potential threat… And the Imperium learned this when they immediately tried to kill them, obviously
More like “we are the baddies, but the incredibly wealthy own the country and they want war, and none of us have to balls to start lopping off heads”
incredibly wealthy own the country
I wish people just said “the capitalist class”…
Makes it more obvious what the problem is and What Is To Be Done (working class revolution and overthrow).
Don’t think that’s what OP meant.
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Don’t know how you got that from one statement.
Yes, that is the justification most Americans use; western chauvinism tells them that no matter how bad they are, the other places are worse. How many times on Lemmy do you see people say “America bad, but China or Russia or Iran would be worse (therefore we’re justified in facilitating massive bloodshed)?”
I’ve seen the former part of that sentiment on here, but I haven’t seen anyone use it as justification to go to war
It’s used to justify bombing Yemen, support the genocide in Palestine, escalating the proxy war against Russia, and starting one against China.
You can get a social democrat to acknowledge that every conflict America has supported since WWII has made make the world worse, and they’ll still insist that this time, it’s different.
And half of lemmy are worse than that.
…escalating the proxy war against Russia…
So, comrade, how much of Ukraine should surrender for about 6 years of “peace” with Russia?
I for one wouldn’t have used unrest as a chance to do a coup. But if I did, I wouldn’t have planned who to install in what positions over an unsecure line.
And so, Ukraine would have stayed a democracy that is more economically aligned with Russia, and Russia wouldn’t have invaded.
I for one, wouldn’t have spent 40 years trying to overthrow a proletarian democracy, eventually succeeding in sponsoring a coup.
So Ukraine and Russia wouldn’t be right wing nationalist nations and would instead be part of a progressive federation.
The path where America is not in control and making the decisions for the rest of the world doesn’t even enter the liberalist mind. The inability to imagine an alternative world order is heavily ingrained and maintained by fear of “the other.”
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The portions of Ukraine that Western Ukraine was shelling before the invasion.
The lines have hardly moved in a year, despite thousands more dead and millions more displaced. Every bomb we send is a bad day for someone, statistically mostly civilians. To send more bombs is to sacrifice more people, for the same geopolitical outcome.
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Surprised it’s taken this long for people to grasp it.
We control the world’s reserve currency, and hold the ability to fry any country’s economy via economic sanctions whenever we want. We have the largest military in the world and that military is set up for the purpose of invasion. Yeah, China has a massive navy, but their ships are tiny, most likely for the purpose of defending their oceans and eventually taking Taiwan. We on the other hand have more carrier ships than anyone else, all for the purpose of being able to flex our might on anyone in the world.
People used to say that we attempted to police the world. I don’t hear it nearly as much anymore, but it’s accurate. We throw our weight around. We’re the world’s bully.
Yes, and to large extent NATO countries love to join in on the bullying. Britain and Australia jumped right in with the Iraq invasion for example.
I like how some people are claiming americans are aware of this lol
If most americans were sufficiently aware and organizing against it accordingly (if they’re not organizing, they’re not aware enough) the imperialist gov would already have been toppled.
I’m American and am aware of this. Explain that!
The One True AmericanTM
The alternative:
The representative of no one AmericanTM
Power. Your fantasy assumes the weight of mere knowing outweighs the power wielded against the citizenry. No revolution started with the whole citizenry waking up. You know why. If not, read more and be less disingenuous.
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No revolution started with the whole citizenry waking up
Obviously not everyone lmao.
What every revolution has had is people informing others about what the issue is (often by pamphlets, news, etc), what needs to be done, and organizing. The vast majority of successful revolutions are only those that had organized revolutionaries.
I like how some people are claiming americans are aware of this lol
What every revolution has had is people informing others about what the issue is
If most americans were sufficiently aware and organizing against it accordingly
The vast majority of successful revolutions are only those that had organized revolutionaries.
OK. I see your messaging is at odds with itself and you understand the assignment.
You got top spot on this here memetic sharing of ideas. Which message for the Americans at home who by virtue of reading you on Lemmy are closer to you than not?
Some zoomers and some millennials know it. Boomers don’t know or actually think it’s a good thing, with some rare exceptions.
Either way your take is extremely juvenile and simplistic. There’s a lot more at play with revolutions than people knowing their country did something bad. It takes a lot more than that to get people off their ass, with very few exceptions historically, and even those exceptions are usually led by rich people looking out for themselves.
People need to have their own livelihoods threatened before they do anything. And there are always power systems in place that deliberately make it hard for people to organize.
We’re pretty dense, two critically acclaimed series and a couple shitty, live-action projects isn’t gonna cut it.
The non-KFC surface of the earth testifies to the fact.
We don’t want to be the arbiter we just kinda got stuck with it cause no one else was left. If you could all not kill each other for 50 years we would really appreciate it.
Everyone keeps arming bombers and shooting boats. This is kinda a no-no for us. Could ya not. We really don’t want to get involved in regional shit.
I mean most of this shit is pretty unpopular with Americans. Unfortunately the US has been sliding deeper and deeper into fascism for a while now, so what we want is less and less important.
Uneducated fuckwits thinking the u.s invented war.
“Oh my god you shot me, I’m going to die, but I don’t blame you because you didn’t invent the gun”
false, most amerikkkans will not have the self-awareness to feel bad about it
“Wow, the Fire Nation is just like the latest country the news told me to hate, good thing America’s around to Share Our Greatness™️with them!”
Big nation go ooga fuck around n find out; hamburgerland munition go boom
Most Americans are too dumb to realize the allegory in ATLA.
There are a lot of assholish nations that could easily take that place, but imo there are enough references to Dalai lama in the show to assume that the fire nation is china
Imagine seeing a brutal depiction of genocidal imperialism in media and referring to it as ‘assholish’
Being “just a cartoon” I never thought of the dimension of it, but they literally wiped out an entire nation. Suddenly, comparing the fire nation to any current superpower seems wrong.
?? The US famously wiped out the native population within its borders. I’m not sure what history you were taught but genocide is a very common topic.
The Dalai Lama references are from the Air Nomads, not Fire Nation
That’s because the air nomads are basically Tibetan monks, also annexed by China in the 1950s
Yes, that’s how the metaphor follows through. The fire Nation destroys the air nomads the way the Chinese destroyed Tibet.
imperialism is shitty.
But America really is the greatest nation in the world. On account of the fact that 100% of working class people here in the US hate what their government is doing.
would you please clarify what you mean: what is the government doing that 100% of working class people in the US hate?
You don’t follow the news much, do you?
To the contrary: there are so many potential stances if you take “100%” as a ballpark. But I think we’ve fallen into a common pitfall of non-verbal communication: I wasn’t trying to argue with you. I was simply asking for clarification out of curiosity.
If it’s any consolation, I should point out that I do agree with you in thinking that America is great. We have our share of problems, some dire and heartbreaking. However it is my conviction that, given enough time, during which we will inevitably bear witness to many more injustices, they will be solved, if never to a satisfactory degree, that being the nature of progress.
Fox news calling the US an empire is not new. How old do you all think the moniker “Empire State” is? It’s wild how it’s in our language but we just don’t think about it.
Don’t you think there are better, more recent examples of this?
(Oh, I missed the instance I was on lol)
? The most recent one is the ongoing genocide in Palestine that the US and its colony is committing.
No, “israel” isn’t a separate entity. It was formed as a general western settler colony in Palestine using british colonization tactics, and has been functioning as an american one.
You’re hilarious!
Could someone explain the joke to me? I’m not very smart.
China has an active genocide, and they have some pretty strong nationalism and propaganda.
Russia is currently brutally invading another country, and they don’t even get real elections.
The fact that the US was the only one of the world’s major powers you could list as an example doing atrocious shit that also has a history with propaganda, is telling.
What are you on about? This post is literally about the US…
What are you on about? Incapable of following the comment chain? I’m not a top level comment
Idk man. As far as I understood, the main post is about the US, which the comment you replied to also talked about. And then you’re wondering why that person talked about the US and not other countries.
The US has been the de facto leader of the imperial core since WW2, and its government is thus directly or indirectly responsible for a large part of the suffering in the world right now — be it directly through wars, genocides/massacres, sanctions, embargoes, or indirectly through economic imperialism or neocolonialism — so yes, that should be the first country anyone comes up with. Probably also because I happen to be from one of its victim countries.
China has an active genocide
All claims of this come from imperial core countries or “independent” orgs funded by its corporations.
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation and delegates from dozens of Global South countries approve of China’s handling of the ETIM (a problem deliberately created by the US through Afganistan by the way) and deny western claims. This lines up with what the hundreds of millions of annual tourists to the region say.
Between the western govs responsible for killing, and continuing to kill, millions of muslims in the past few decades alone throughout Africa, Middle-East, Asia, and global south countries without a recent history of doing so (they are the victims rather), I for one know which not to trust.
Russia
The US colony has killed three times more civilians in its genocide in the past few months than the Russian military has in 2 years in its proxy war with the US. This isn’t remotely comparable.
Gotta love the “but is China REALLLLLLLY committing a genocide if China denies it” angle
China denies it
Who cited China?
The majority of countries denying the western claims are muslim-majority Global South ones
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You’re using alt accounts to manipulate votes, lol
Sure lmao
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I don’t think US elections are terribly real either. You get whoever the Republicans want or you get whoever the Democrats want. If you don’t want either of those and vote for someone else you risk your least preferred candidate winning. You don’t get to decide who runs.
I’m not saying I like Russia and China but you can’t claim that their actions in anyway justify what the US does.
Also just because this post is about the US it doesn’t mean the other atrocities aren’t happening. Do we have to mention what China and the US are doing whenever the Ukraine war is brought up? Seems like a bit of a silly argument really
