- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
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This is dumb. Just going to be used for collectors editions with different songs and shit.
To each their own I guess.
I wanna go even further than retro. Gimme the hottest new single on wax cylinder for my phonograph…
I feel like I am the only person who still buys MP3 files direct.
Hm. “do you want 2 vinyl nuts” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Poeple jerking off CDs here dont understand down sampling and the average quality of CDS. they think that just because it is digitally mastered that it therefore must be the master that is put on CDS, its not.
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I don’t even know where to start with your comment.
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Digital mastering was already a thing when vinyl reigned.
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CDs have much more fidelity than vinyl, no matter what vinyl enthusiasts say.
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CDs being flat USB drives… what does that even mean?
Anyone who says vinyl is better is really just enjoying the experience. And you know what? That’s fine. The problem is, some of them do a terrible job of explaining that it’s not actually about the audio quality. When it is actually about the audio quality, vinyl is worse, but some people enjoy that aspect too.
I picked up a little bit on the “audiophile” hobby in the last few years because I was bored and was tired of listening to crappy sound systems with tinny speakers and wanted something a little more premium.
In the “audiophile” community there is all kinds of stuff being marketed mostly to those with more money than brains trying to eek more quality out of their vinyl setups using $10,000 “cartridges” and “record cleaning machines” and the like. I have no idea what these people are thinking because a much easier path to getting quality music to your speakers is to use a digital source.
However, I don’t know who at this point would use CDs either. CDs are obviously better quality than vinyl, 8-track, or cassette, but these days you can get CD quality (or even better, master quality from the mixing boards) digitally and losslessly via the Internet and save yourself the collecting of disks.
So I think CDs are kinda stuck in no man’s land. Vinyl enthusiasts are in a few groups: loony tunes buying $10k cartridges for their record players, people who like the “aesthetic” of vinyl and don’t really care about the quality, people who sample / mix / DJ from vinyl…and the overlap between those groups…CD enthusiasts are people who…like the quality of a digital format but want to still…collect things? Dislike convenience? I’m not sure.
long tangent
I am probably at the exact right age and demographic to be a CD enthusiast (it was my primary listening method in my early to late teens so that should trigger nostalgia, I’m a big music fan, and I was one of the few people dorky / techy enough to make “mix CDs”) and I cannot imagine ever wanting to go back to CDs…digital files overtook all other source types for me less than a decade after I started having a substantial CD collection. I ripped all of my CDs to digital files at one point and tried to go get some money for a large CD collection I had and watched as the music store guy went over every single (working) CD with a fine tooth comb and explained why I could get $0 for basically all of them at the farmer’s market. I wound up dropping the entire box of CDs in a visible place in the store parking lot so someone else could get them for free and then I drove off.
Then there’s everyone else…if you are OK with digital formats (like most people) you’re probably already on a streaming service. CDs provide quality but little else. They’re fussy, they require a physical collection, they’re easily damaged, they skip, etc. etc.
I would not be surprised if at some point cassette tape sales rebound and overtake CD sales because I think cassettes sit in similar nostalgic / aesthetic territory to vinyl.
As it is, I don’t even know what device I would use to play a CD if I bought one. Maybe my PS5?
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One of my favorite things about vinyl is having to flip the record over. I think it demands more active and respectful listening.
concidering walmart doesn’t sell normal cd players in store but does sell record players, I’m not surprized.
Because CD is a medium for data shrinking in popularity and vinyl is a token of being cool growing in popularity, of course it does.
I want to know what “other” is that is also clobbering CDs. Can’t say it’s streaming because it’s physical media. The article mentions that half a million cassettes were sold, but that doesn’t really answer the question. That “other” takes up a lot of space relative to CDs so I’m pretty curious.
I’d assume it is for digital downloads.
If I am not purchasing LPs, I try to purchase MP3s/FLAC that I can copy and move around as I please.
Hm, digital downloads count as physical media? I might? be able to see the merit in that classification but I’m not entirely convinced.
I should comment AFTER I read the article.
If it is for physical sales only I would have to guess we are looking at things like cassette, USB drives and limited releases on other obscure formats like minidisk.
I dug into the RIAA Source PDF the article references for what “other” means:
“Includes CD Singles, Cassettes, Vinyl Singles, DVD Audio, SACD”
Not something I follow, but I recall reading that SACD is favored as being the highest-fidelity format generally available today (well, physical format…if you get something online, could be at whatever resolution you want).
I also recall reading – probably a more-meaningful factor than the actual physical constraints – that because the people who were buying them were rabid about audio quality and were annoyed by dynamic range compression, that the people mastering didn’t make hot recordings, so the media format avoided the “loudness war”.
googles
Hmm. Apparently not any more, at least not always:
At least for a little while SACD/DSD/24bit 96k releases were immune to loudness wars. However over the last 5 years or so I’m noticing a lot of high res releases, either remasters, remixes or new releases in high res have become victims of the loudness wars. The latest release of Electric Lady land is a prime example, horrible clipping and single digit DR ratings.
Why? These releases are not meant for portable headphone consumption why are they doing this? Why are supposedly trained audio engineers going along with this? Clipping and low DR ranges is a quantifineable error. People that buy high res releases will want full DR to play on their home audio system.
Why has this horrible practice infected what should be audiophile class recordings?
Honestly, digital music vendors should just include a dynamic range metric. Hell, let artists sell different versions of a song if they want. MP3 and I think all other popular formats have ReplayGain or equivalent, so one should be able to optimize the recording for reproduction accuracy rather than to just achieve a desired volume.
Ahh, perfect, thanks, I genuinely appreciate it. I should have done that myself, shouldn’t I?
Eh, I have a lot of questions after articles, few are worth going down the rabbit hole for unless others show interest, no worries!
I don’t really buy vinyl to listen to it, but for the larger cover art and liner notes
That is definitely something I loved about LPs. I used to have a big book of album cover art. I have no idea what happened to it unfortunately, but I used to pore over it. Liner notes are less of an issue with the internet, but the shrinking of art was a very unfortunate result of CDs.
I remember getting a copy of Jethro Tull’s “Thick as a Brick” that came with a whole-ass newspaper they made folded into the liner with lyrics and pictures. That’s something you can only do with vinyl.
Definitely. Similarly, Negativland’s album Escape From Noise came with both a bumper sticker and a booklet all about the history of Negativland.
The only vinyls I buy are from charity shops or because I love an album so much that I want it as a collection (I’d also buy the CD to actually listen to)
Yeah, I haven’t bought a new record in a long time, and one of my most prized albums is a 1970 radio-played copy of The Kinks “Lola vs. Powerman and the MoneygoRound” complete with the dates and times they played Lola."
It’s to bad there’s no good record players made anymore. Or cassette decks. It’s all the cheap bottom of the barrel mechanisms now. No quality Japanese equipment like there used to be.
Reloop/pioneer/insert 100 other brands here: am I a joke to you
CDs are this odd junction between quality, inconvenience, and low cost, one that makes it niche. They are a physical product and thus higher quality, so to speak, than digital music. Yet vinyls are higher quality (in the hand) and more novel due to the design options. Then they are lossless but even personally ripping is far less convenient than digital music, much less inserting the disc with every use. The others combined— a vinyl copy for display and pirating/a lossless streaming service like Qobuz or Apple’s— costs more for what can be seen as a minimal improvement in the other categories.
So I’m not surprised. Vinyls are a neat little souvenir of songs or albums I enjoy, and though I’ve never actually played a single one, they’re still something I like to collect. Can’t say the same for CDs.
Then they are lossless
LOL, they are lossy after every playback.
Though admittedly music CDs are not that much qualitatively different in practice.
Your comment illustrates well which kind of people affects the market in this area, though.
Oops, I was still talking about CDs in that sentence, I thought “disc” later in the sentence would get it across. My b
Oh. Sorry
Vinyl isn’t lossless. First they start with a master - either analogue or digital, then they strip out high/low frequency and compress the dynamic range to make it fit the format, not waste space or jump tracks. Also, the act of pressing discs introduces errors, and the playing equipment can introduce noise like wow, flutter, hisses and pops. I bet some record players, especially ones with USB connections or equalizers probably toss in some adc / dac conversion in there too depending on how they do their thing. There are losses end to end in other words.
CDs are also downsampled from studio tracks, but the format has a higher frequency and dynamic range so providing a CD and vinyl record were from the same master you are going to get a truer, better quality audio from the CD every single time. Also, since it’s digital (with error correction) you are getting EXACTLY what was put on the disc. You could rip it to FLAC or some other lossless format and it would be bit for bit identical.
Bbut CDs have no soul!
Most objects don’t.
Oops, I was still talking about CDs in that sentence, I thought “disc” later in the sentence would get it across. My b
Then they are lossless
Vinyl? No, not at all. Pressing the platter is already the lossy part, playing has less dynamic range. Some just like the mechanical part and scratching noises better.
Oops, I was still talking about CDs in that sentence, I thought “disc” later in the sentence would get it across. My b
Only a few more years now till the retro sound of CDs comes back into style. I realize vinyl is a great and unique user experience with a specific timber, and more enjoyable to collect.
It’s kind of funny when you hear about the “analog warmth” when albums were being digitally mastered as early as the late 70s… And pretty much all re-releases are digitally remastered.
Exactly, although CD isn’t so much “retro” as it is a high frequency, high dynamic range audio recording. The only reason vinyl sounds “warm” is because their dynamic range & frequency is compressed so the needle doesn’t bounce out of its groove.
While it’s possible for a CD to receive a terrible master, if the mastering across formats is the same and other biases are eliminated (i.e. proper A/B testing) then CD will be objectively better sounding every single time.
the retro sound of CDs
Your mistake is equivocating digital with analog. There is nothing “retro sounding” about CDs, you can download lossless digital versions of albums that are identical to what you’ll find on a CD.
That’s technically true, but it is entirely possible CDs come back as a retro meat-space alternative to the corporate streaming dystopia we’re headed towards, or using CDs as a secondary retro proxy to feed nostalgia for production mastering trends of the 1990s-2000s era.
They already are! Some young artists are already doing those 2000s nostalgia CD releases for the kicks of having a physical medium.
However a big part of the marketing for vinyl has historically been “the sound is warm/high definition/whatever audiophile bullshit”. Anyone can achieve the same “warmth” with an EQ and some crackle/white noise (it works so well it’s a whole genre called lofi…), but the “vinyl sounds better” crowd will make the unfalsifiable claim that “it’s not the same”.
However, good luck claiming that “CDs sound different from FLACs”!In the end both vinyl and CD enjoyers are doing the same thing: enjoying music through personal and ritualistic manipulation of physical objects, that also come with nice album art. It’s just that some vinyl enjoyers are attributing some of that enjoyment to a largely made-up supposed “superiority” of sound (yes there are edge cases like “bad” remasters of songs originally released on vinyl, but is that really why anyone buys a turntable? Be honest.).
I’m a professional audio engineer for a living, with a masters in the subject, it was sarcasm lol…
Vynil is mixed differently. Base is much more centered to help prevent skipping tracks. This makes music sound a bit differently. Also, it’s not easy to change track or author, so you usually end up listening to entire side or record. Overall it’s a different experience.
I personally never liked CDs. They never lasted for me. Either the case breaks on the first wrong glance of it or the disk starts flaking or being scratched.
I agree that some cases are brittle but I’ve not seen a disc get fucked since I was a kid, when I couldn’t be bothered to put them back in the case.
I think the mixing being different is likely dependent upon how good the engineer and mastering engineers are/were. I’d wager a fair number of bands releasing their albums to vinyl these days simply send over a very similar final master (maybe slightly less loud if you are lucky) to the vinyl cutting without much thought, because it’s the hip thing to do.
You are accurate, that they should ensure that low frequencies are mono compatible, but it is likely less of an issue for the style of music most associated with vinyl releases (indi etc), as stylistically they don’t tend to use stereo widening on low frequency instruments. Generally they have kick and bass down the center channel, or I suppose going mono style out of L/R if they are trying to be really old school, but that would likely take a completely different mix adding to production budget as I can’t imagine if would work to well on phones etc, which a lof of music is mix for unfortunately.
None of the artists I produce or mix for have requested it yet, but if they did I would send them to Fuller Sound Mastering as Michael has been around for ages and knows how to handle masters for vinyl.
Vinyl cutting also has an EQ curve offset that is printed into the vinyl itself, cutting the bass and boosting the high frequency, which is then re-applied by the players preamp circuitry, I believe it’s referred to as pre and de-emphasis. Funny enough my mastering DAC actually has this feature for some kind of old early CD technology for some lower resolution digital formats that had issues with noise and filtering and used a similar technology, I had never heard of this until I purchased this particular unit haha.
Retro sound of a CD?
They sound exactly the same as the digital releases. Only audiophiles up there own arses believe that they can hear a difference. Vinyls sound different but for obvious reasons.
I think you missed my sarcasm…
Edited to add: most CDs sound the same as their digital releases (assuming they had the same master which I’ve found isn’t always true), but occasionally you can actually get higher resolution, up to 96k/24 bit, which do sound different depending on your playback device.
Most of the difference is likely due to the nature of the DA filter being applied during playback, as I certainly won’t notice the noise floor between 16-24 bit, and any frequency difference is far far behind my range of hearing.
If you aren’t familiar with what I’m referring too, different DA implementations use varying filtering techniques, some have a slight roll off in the upper frequency range to improve the accuracy of transient response, while others use a flatter frequency response sacrificing the transient. Newer DAs from some manufacturers allow you to select which option you prefer. At double and quad sample rates this can largely become a moot point as any sacrifice to the frequency response is far out of the range of human hearing.
Fair play
CDs are already showing signs of a comeback! https://www.axios.com/2024/01/06/gen-z-cds-buying-collection
Lol, knew it was coming!
Only a few more years now till the retro sound of CDs comes back into style.
I liked the artwork on the disks themselves, and the feeling of opening a box, taking the disk out with that cracking sound, pushing a button on the drive and seeing and hearing it open, and then the sound of spinning when it’s being read.
Every bit as “warm” as vinyl in my opinion (born in 1996, so of course it is).
CD fans right now:
Apparently CDs are trending up as a nostalgia format in some demographics! https://www.axios.com/2024/01/06/gen-z-cds-buying-collection
I found this small community just a few days ago: [email protected] Thought it was interesting, and curious. I did not know that CDs are considered by some as collectible.
Nice find, it is weird that I’m now a collector because I still have all the CDs I’ve bought, and I still buy one from time to time
Indeed! Apparently I too have unwittingly been growing my collection since 1991. Of course back then we just called it “buying my music”.
I would show it off to that community but it’s just stacked in cardboard boxes (alphabetically, I’m not an animal), not nicely curated and organized and dusted weekly in pride of place. Also, I’ve never counted, but it must number in the several hundred; I wouldn’t want to overwhelm any fledgling enthusiasts there. ;)
