Ragebait doesn’t deserve all this spilled ink.
A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.
Ah yeah, propaganda and stereotyping.
Belief only becomes a problem when someone weaponizes it. If you want to become a better person to appease the space rock, go for it, but if you tell me the space rock says no abortions for anyone, no it doesn’t.
Belief is a problem because it normalizes magical thinking and pushes blame away from the self. Belief paves the way for snake oil, anti-intellectualism, and learned helplessness. Belief is comforting shackle but there are other ways to be comforted that do not leave one vulnerable to predation.
Nah, it really isn’t a problem. At all actually. It doesn’t matter if every single person believes in a different gemstone and that the gemstone will bestow upon them magical blessings for being a good person. If that is what they need to be good people, to motivate them, to inspire them to be better - who gives a fuck if it ‘normalizes magic’?
I’m not so concerned with being right that I’d let us live in misery to be closer to ‘intellectualism’. Not everyone will find other methods to cope and their belief doesn’t harm anyone. I think you have to be a genuinely dank and dreary person to want to rob people of something like Santa Claus because it ‘normalizes magic’ while I’m sitting here hoping people just try to be better with the vague promise of presents.
Religious people vote. That’s why it matters.
As long as they don’t use the magic gemstones to decide how they vote, it doesn’t matter.
Their preachers tell them how to vote, and their preachers tell them to take rights away from women and minorities. To not worry about climate change because the Rapture is coming. To give all their money to Trump. They hurt our society.
Everything has grifters. Elon Musk hasn’t whispered a word of religion yet people will vote the way he tells them to. Magic has nothing to do with stupidity.
It’s orders of magnitude more common among religious people.
Score one for atheism!
Be pragmatic in your atheism advocacy. Lay out your arguments why supernatural thinking is bad, both from an epistemological and pragmatic sense, poke at contradictions of the other person’s religion with reality, and warn about the dangers of organized religion specifically, just don’t cross the line of actually engaging in nuclear warfare.
If they haven’t been brainwashed enough, they’ll bite, even if it takes them months. If they have been brainwashed enough but they have intellectual honesty and curiosity, they may begin a self-questioning process themselves that will eventually make them crash, and it will be painful, but once they get recovered they’ll be grateful. If they don’t have that intellectual honesty, you’ve at least planted the potential seeds for them to decide at some later point that superstition was indeed bullshit, which may or may not come into fruition in the future. If the person you’re talking with is an intellectual donkey (in terms of unwillingness to reason), you have nothing to gain from that conversation.
When it comes to old religious people, though, I limit myself to relentlessly attacking the church. Due to their material conditions, they have the lowest chance to ever leaving their beliefs anyway, so my goal is just to make them wary of any dumbfuck hate preacher they may find.
Meh. All reasoning is grounded in emotion. Even atheistic reasoning. That’s why argumentation does zip. It’s like trying to fix a warped floor by moving the rug around.
If yo mama cries over religion, then maybe she needs professional help.
If yo mama is crying, it’s probably because she gave birth to you.
If yo momma is crying, it’s probably because I ain’t been up for a booty call in a few days.
it’s probably because I ain’t been up for a booty call in a few days.
Yeah… your inability to get it up is not my momma’s problem.
Yeah, she isn’t being paid for that
What? Are you jealous of people who earn money in more honest ways than you?
Shit, how do you know about my crypto mine slaves?
Anyway, she got to pay off your college debt somehow
she got to pay off your college debt somehow
Hey… don’t judge. That’s how she paid off yours, too.
Maybe you need professional help
"Hey, you know that belief system that attempts to answer the great unanswerable questions and gives you some shred of comfort? Nah, you live in an unfeeling, uncaring world. There is nothing, no great answer. Just living until you die.
Why are you crying?"
If you call yourself an atheist vs agnostic, I immediately just see an edgy teenager who wants to be confrontational. Not someone seeking actual answers or discussion. Most of the greatest scientific thinkers acknowledge that science is the answer to “how?”, but not “why?”. We simply don’t have that answer. Anyone claiming to is arrogant at best.
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Just like nobody knows for certain if centaurs or the Tooth Fairy actually exist or not. Right.
…I can certainly relate to the idea that we cannot fully comprehend reality. No, seriously, I do; and I’m often ranting against assumers claiming to know shit that they cannot reliably know*.
But, at the end of the day, this shit is supposed to be practical, not some mental masturbation over the metaphysical fabric of the reality. You need to draw the line somewhere and say “nah, this is likely enough to be bullshit that we can safely say «it’s bullshit»”. Otherwise your “agnosticism” is simply a fancy name for solipsism.
*for example, implying that they know who says it (edgy teenager) and “intention” (to be confrontational), based on the label that one might use (atheist). That stinks assumption from a distance, like it or not.
You messaged me directly rather than responding in the thread, but messaging back is failing, so I will respond here.
There is no theory involving deities that fits the models of the universe we have based on observable evidence, and there is no evidence in support of any theory involving deities.
For anything else we would say that this thing doesn’t exist and leave it at that.
Agnosticism gets lost in the fallacy that since it’s logically impossible to prove non-existence we must hold open the possibility of existence without evidence.
So I’m an atheist because it is the default state to be, it makes no statement requiring evidence, and it doesn’t require fallacy.
So your arguments for agnosticism over atheism is that you don’t want to make religious people feel uncomfortable and science isn’t philosophy?
Atheism is trying to prove a negative
What are you on about? Atheism is rejecting a ridiculous belief system. There is nothing for atheists to prove, they made no claims. Religion is the one making claims, so it’s on them to prove it. Atheism simply says “no thanks, the evidence you provide is insufficient and I don’t believe you”.
Atheism is trying to prove a negative
What are you on about? Atheism is rejecting a ridiculous belief system.
Y’all are arguing the same thing with these two sentences.
There is nothing for atheists to prove, they made no claims. Religion is the one making claims, so it’s on them to prove it. Atheism simply says “no thanks, the evidence you provide is insufficient and I don’t believe you”.
That sounds like trying to disprove a negative to me. Just because it’s an absurd negative doesn’t mean it’s not impossible to disprove it.
I don’t want to get into all the nitty gritty, but the weight against the big sky person is “we definitely don’t see it.” and the argument for the big sky person is “we definitely feel it.”
Y’all are both spending a lot of time arguing about the big sky person regardless of your stance.
*edit actually, i just saw this comment, and i’m not gonna argue with that.
Gnostic atheism is not the same as agnostic atheism. You’re talking about a subsect of atheism.
how on earth was that your takeaway from that comment?
neither science nor philosophy can provide objective truth in answer to the question “is there a god?”
it’s edgy teen territory to act like they can
Their first part is a short work of fiction about making a religious person feel bad.
Their second is saying that science doesn’t answer the question “why.”
Philosophy asks “why” at least it does here on Earth.
The first part is a response to “why would somebody be sad if their religion turned out to be false”, which for the record, if you need it explained to you why that might be, you’re really earning that “edgy teenager” label.
The second is saying that there’s literally no way to be sure of answers on the scale of “is there a god?”, science included
Philosophy asks some “why?” questions, but if you think it’s equipped to definitively answer all of them you don’t know much about philosophy.
Neither can science nor philosophy prove that unicorn’s don’t exist. Proving negatives isn’t a thing, you have to substantiate whatever claim it is you’re making.
That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It’s ignorant or plain wishful thinking to claim otherwise
neither science nor philosophy can provide objective truth in answer to the question “is there a god?”
That’s a loaded question. What type of god? You wanna define it before you ask if it exists.
And after you define it, you can also gather all the proof that it exists and you can present it to science and to philosophy. And they will look at all that proof and say “X”. Because they doubt.
But it’s still on you to prove your claim that there is a god, if you believe it. If you’re just on the sidelines asking because you’re not sure - there’s a simpler answer: yes, there is a god. It is me. And I need about 10% of your monthly income. Get in touch, I’ll send you some details where you can donate your share. In return, I will of course love you unconditionally until you slightly annoy me with your lifestyle (which I already know you will, I am omniscient and I literally made you this way, you have no choice in the matter), at which point you will know my vengeance, for I am the Lord. Throughout this period where I exact my retribution, the expectation is that you’ll shut up and take it, and never forget about that 10% you owe me. Otherwise I will literally put you through hell.
If you somehow doubt ANY of these claims, for reasons like “why would God contact me on the internet, or need my money, or hate me for how he made me”, or any of these silly questions, just remember - neither science nor philosophy can provide objective truth in answer to the question “is there a god?”. Just like they can’t provide objective truth to “is god that dude on lemmy?”
That’s a loaded question. What type of god? You wanna define it before you ask if it exists.
given that we’re very clearly talking in the context of a christian god here, I’m not sure what additional information you need
but what if i’m god ha ha he he
this is just that edgy teenager shit again
Nope. I’m God. Please remember, you have as much evidence I am not, as I have that god doesn’t exist.
And just for that “edgy teenager” comment, I’ll put a word in to make sure you’re tortured by the devil with the most jagged penis.
Please remember, you have as much evidence I am not, as I have that god doesn’t exist.
you’re still behaving as if i’m trying to convince you of the existence of a god, rather than you trying to convince me that one doesn’t exist
do you understand the difference?
Nah, you live in an unfeeling, uncaring world. There is nothing, no great answer. Just living until you die.
I don’t agree with that other guy, but now you’re just wrestling with a straw man. Nobody says these things.
Nature and physics may not have the capacity to care about you, but you have friends, family, and pets that do whether God exists or not. And there’s plenty of questions that seem like we won’t get an answer for the foreseeable future, but that doesn’t mean you can’t find any meaning or joy in trying, or that you can’t tackle smaller questions that could build up to answering a greater one.
Just living until you die.
This part is particularly cartoonish. Nobody says life is just living until you die. That’s a debatably bigoted caricature that Christians invented.
We live the same lives theists do, and we have just as many meaningful experiences and relationships. We just don’t sacrifice enormous amounts of our time worshiping or thinking about something that can’t be shown to exist unless you take someone’s word for it.
attempts to answer the great unanswerable
I can also try to do that, where is my money?
gives you some shred of comfort
I mean if lying to yourself and others gives you comfort, then my point stands that you need help
unfeeling, uncaring world
Absolutely not, otherwise i would have written “she can go fuck herself”, but i didnt because people deserve better than being forced to believe in some century old mental mindgame of bullshit.
Just living until you die.
Thats correct, but life is amazing and full of cool stuff already. There is no need to limit your happiness with some archaic system of self oppression.
I can also try to do that, where is my money?
You lack the charisma of a televangelist and the backing of a wealthy group to lobby against taxing your gains.
I mean if lying to yourself and others gives you comfort, then my point stands that you need help
Truth hurts and most people don’t like being in pain most of the time.
Absolutely not, otherwise i would have written “she can go fuck herself”, but i didnt because people deserve better than being forced to believe in some century old mental mindgame of bullshit.
You assume they are being forced and not do so willingly. Those looking for stability tend to cling to ideas that don’t change multiple times over the course of their life. An ancient religion is considerably more stable than the ever-changing discoveries of science.
Thats correct, but life is amazing and full of cool stuff already. There is no need to limit your happiness with some archaic system of self oppression.
Most people don’t get to see those. Each individual has a limited experience through life and we all tend to take for granted the idea that we all experience the same things in the same way. We don’t.
If you can’t understand why someone would cling to religion, at least try to understand that the same can be said about them regarding you.
I mean if lying to yourself and others gives you comfort, then my point stands that you need help
“Lying” means they know it’s false. It seems like they’re unknowingly spreading misinformation, which is still bad but not morally wrong.
Unnecessarily harsh language isn’t very productive in discussions like this.
People who have grown up in a culture of religion assume that there’s nothing but pain in atheism, when actually it’s quite liberating. The intellectual honesty of atheism is simple, refreshing, and empowering. I for one have never been more at peace with myself.
It turns out that fearmongering about death (eg. most religious teachings of an afterlife) perpetuates the fear of death. Atheists must make peace with the reality of the universe and when they do the fear simply goes away.
You live in a universe whose only source of joy, hope, inspiration, and meaning is sapient minds like yours. The entire observable cosmos has so far turned out to be nothing but dead rocks, dead dust, and dead gas, except for beings like you. Your very existence is an act of defiance worthy of pride. Stand tall, sophont. Create the future you wish to see, for YOUR KIND are the only ones who you’ve met who are capable of bringing it about!
There are lots of ways to approach meaning, and more broadly spirituality and community, without theism.
This is a weird take on atheism that reads like you’ve only seen atheists online creeping out of /r/atheism or some similar place. There’s no more reason that “why” should be answered by Christianity than by any number of philosophies that don’t require a god, and pegging someone as arrogant for ascribing to those beliefs is silly.
Agnosticism was coined because people were afraid of coming out as atheists, but it’s really the same thing.
Atheist thinks there’s no evidence for god so it doesn’t make sense to believe in one.
Agnostic thinks there’s no evidence for god, so it’s unlikely there’s one.
In both cases, the person is science first and would change their opinion if proof was presented but before that they don’t believe in god.
That’s not what agnostic means. Agnostics believe “there is no way to know”, so you can have Agnostic Theists (we can’t know for sure, but I believe God exists) as well as Agnostic Atheists (we can’t know for sure, but I don’t believe God exists).
The opposite is gnosticism, and you can similarly have Gnostic Theists (God exists and I can prove it) and Gnostic Atheists (God doesn’t exist, and I can prove it).
How is that different to what he said it was?
Looks like I made a small mistake, but it just takes agnostic closer to atheist
The English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley coined the word agnostic in 1869, and said "It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe
Most agnostics are atheists because the evidence always favors atheism. But there really are a handful of agnostic theists out there!
So what you’re saying is that there’s people who don’t believe that god(s) exist but they believe in it/them anyways?
Or they believe in some trash evidence for the existence of god
Simpler: he’s saying that there are people who believe in something, but they don’t claim to know it.
For example. I brew some coffee at 14:00. Now it’s 18:00. I believe that my coffee is still warm, but I don’t know it - because I have no data to back up that knowledge. I can however generate said knowledge by grabbing a cup of coffee. (I just did it. It’s warm.)
What the agnostic theists do is like that. With a key difference: they cannot generate said knowledge, and they know it. They cannot grab that cup of coffee.
No, they are agnostic theists, which means that they believe there is no way to know if god exists or not, but they believe in god anyway.
Agnosticism is about believing whether the existence of god is testable, not about whether god actually exists or not.
Obviously the vast majority of agnostics are also atheists, because it’s silly to believe in something for which there is no evidence. But there are some few who feel that god is out there even if we cannot know for sure.
I’m certainly not religious, but I understand that a lot of people use religion to supplement a lacking support network. Yes, they should find healthier ways to receive the support they need, but if you force them to abandon their religion without having another source of support to replace it, they’re going to feel very isolated and scared, possibly leading to tears. Especially if their son forced them into that situation and then immediately left, showing complete disregard for their feelings.
Not from a priest though.
I’ve decided that I can’t change my mother’s beliefs nor should I. I told her that we have a no-politics rule as of summer 2020. It saved our relationship.
I wish mine did that. I said one thing about Trump not having as much money as he claims, and my mom got all insulted. She said that maybe we shouldn’t talk about politics, etc, and I agreed to be nice. I don’t like to talk politics at all, even with like-minded people. But she’ll blame a company getting hacked and losing my personal info on democrats, and tell me that she can’t wait until all democrats die off.
But now she just spouts of any shit that comes to her mind without a care, while I’m keeping to our dealt and shutting up. I doubt she even remembers our promise, because the moment it wasn’t convenient for her, she dropped it.
the moment it wasn’t convenient for her, she dropped it.
Sticking to the (lack of) principles of the Republican Party, I see!
Part of this was what finally got me off Facebook. People I liked, family members, posting dumb shit, and me letting it trigger me. It was literally only on Facebook, family gatherings were fun times. And honestly, since Trump, and despite the dichotomy that exists in my family and probably every other family, we seem to speak less about politics.
I’ve been off Facebook for somewhere between 10 and 15 years. I quit it because I didn’t care about what friends and family posted because they were all very religious, and I couldn’t post what I really wanted without offending said friends and family.
Instead of having faith in God, I have faith in the next generation to do slightly better each time. I can’t really bring it to myself to tell my grandma there’s no heaven or hell and her entire life has been a lie. Ignorance is truly bliss sometimes.
Slightly being the key word. I used to think we’d be fine after boomers die and millenials take over (sorry Gen X yes we always forget you) but then realized there are plenty of terrible Gen Y and then for a moment Gen Z was going to change labor politics gun control environment gender/sexuality and be super accepting but there’s still a huge proportion who still want to MAGA… we’ll see how bad alpha is
like my nephews say the same racist shit on their discord and valorant as I saw on 4chan 20 years ago and it’s just sad
Doesn’t mean people can’t change. Kids just wanna feel powerful/invincible. I used to say and hear the craziest of slurs in cod lobbies back in the day. My friends and I who have said those things have just grown up when we learned their real impact and we’ve stopped.
I struggled a lot when I lost my faith. I truly believe I’m better off now but I don’t take other people’s spiritual paths lightly. You go to dark places when you haven’t learned how to cope otherwise.
Yeah, and also I wouldn’t go out of my way to shit on someone who believes we live in a simulation. Simulation theory is sort of plausible with our current understanding of tech—but right now it has just as much evidence as most religions (which is none for both). So yeah, I don’t think it’s good practice to try and dunk on people for their beliefs.
I had the opposite experience. I was convinced I was going to hell and that there was nothing I could do about it, so I thought I may as well be glutinous and selfish to enjoy my time here before getting tortured for eternity. It caused me some serious trauma, and on top of that it led to me hurting family and friends.
I don’t think I could’ve ever left my self-loathing and selfishness behind if I didn’t let go of my religion.
The woman on the floor is thinking about all the gay people she screamed at about God’s wrath, and all the beatings she took from her husband because he was the Head of her, and all of the time and money she wasted on the church, and all of the beatings she let her husband give to her kids lest she “spoil the child,” and all of the bs she swallowed from Republicans, and all of the shame she carried for masturbating, and all of the abuse she hurled at women outside abortion clinics, and all.of the children she’d terrified at Sunday School, and all of the things she never tried because someone had told her not to.
I kid you not, all that kind of personal history creates a massive sunk cost fallacy that will make it impossible for them to admit that they may possibly be wrong.
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It’s a shit lifestyle that needs to die.
Could you elaborate on that?
The person who replied to you went on a rant about voting. Which I agree, religious people tend to vote against their interests. But spending 3 paragraphs talking about voting and nothing else doesn’t really elaborate on why it’s a shit lifestyle does it? I’ll add what I think are the worst aspects of a religious lifestyle.
The biggest issue with a religious lifestyle, in my opinion, is the fact that truly believing in a religion, especially a deity means you have been convinced, and are able to convince yourself to believe in something for which there is no evidence (ive heard religious arguments that faith is a “radical” belief in something that defies logic). The concept of God, for the most part, isn’t that bad. The issue is, if you’ve let in one truth about your life that you believe is true despite any supporting evidence and no logical reason, that opens the door for more random beliefs that aren’t founded on evidence. Or more accurately, they may believe new things (good or bad) for one reason or another but the idea that something needs evidence or solid reasoning to be believed doesn’t factor into their calculations nearly as much.
This means that a religious lifestyle is random, based on where and how they were raised with an ethos of not questioning their foundational beliefs. This means many religious communities grow up fine, and it means many grow up in the bizarre bigoted looney-tunes world I’m sure you’ve seen if you know religious people from disparate backgrounds.
Idk exactly what that person necessarily meant, but to me, a lifestyle based on beliefs that the person has been trained not to question and doesn’t need evidence to be true is kind of shit.
And in before people say that not all (or even most) religious people are like that. I agree that a religious person could easily be raised as someone who engages in logical reasoning and only accepts new beliefs if they think they have sufficient evidence etc. That’s probably true. I’m explaining why I think religion opens the door to a shit lifestyle because of religion.
Religious people might be polite, might even do good things, but they vote for people who do terrible things. Ideally, the whole thing would be done away with. Convincing people to reject facts and vote their feelings is never a gpod combo.
If religious people recused themselves from voting, I wouldn’t care much. But they’re dragging our country down. They’re gullible tools of awful rich men. They fight any forms of progress.
And yeah yeah you’re about to tell me about your aunt Maple who isn’t like that, she’s really lovely and doesn’t preach at you and just likes going to church for the social element. But who does she vote for??
Being religious doesn’t mean you vote for Trump. Thinking that way just encourages them.
Plenty of religious people actually vote for the person more likely to feed the hungry, liberate the captive, take care of the earth, etc. You know, the way the Bible teaches.
Not most of em.
Only if your view of “religious” is limited to white Evangelical Protestants.
But most people have a broader worldview than that.
Pretty good yoko geri for a neckbeard to be throwin
Idk that knee on the planted leg looks locked.
- for a neckbeard :D
She’s crying because she realized that she could buy a second home if she hadn’t been foolishly donating to the church all this time.
Thats why I don’t do that shit to people.
Who am I to question someone’s spirituality if it makes them happpy and they practice in a healthy way and it doesn’t negatively affect the people around them?
Religion is their Candle in the Dark. It’s cruel to blow it out when they don’t have another light.
They use that candle to burn your house down. There are better ways to light your path.
The woman crying in this comic isn’t the religion that’s “burning down your house”
She’s just some schmoe that had her light in the dark removed and now she’s scared.
I agree, there are better ways to light the darkness than religion. Candle in the Dark is a book by Carol Sagan about how science is a candle in the dark.
The woman crying in this comic isn’t the religion that’s “burning down your house”
Oh… what religion is it?
That women is voting against abortion and for concentration camps for the gays. Because her religion told her so.
It’s cruel to blow it out when they don’t have another light.
And atheism offers any kind of light?
Atheism doesn’t offer anything. It’s a lack of belief, not a religion or anything like that.
The light has to be something internal, external, or both that makes the suffering of life worth it.
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It’s a pretty mean angle to take, but why deconvert people by pushing them into a nihilistic crisis?
It’s not like atheists think life is meaningless, kindness to be pointless, or the afterlife something to be anxious about.
I’ve found far less mean-spirited success by explaining how belief isn’t necessary for existence to be worthwhile for us. If they can come to understand how happiness is possible for someone who doesn’t believe, their own belief suddenly become a lot more optional.
Exactly. Atheists don’t like missionaries, so why should we become those ourselves?
As long as nobody tries to impose their beliefs on me, I don’t care about their religion.
Oops, now abortion is illegal and gay people can’t marry!
Strong but unfounded beliefs have consequences…
Yup.
Sometimes I catch myself thinking that we are more modern than we actually are, that we have already moved past these issues. It’s important to remember that civil rights, feminism, and LGBTQ rights are not topics to be relegated to the history books. They are as alive now as they were in the 60s for today, like yesterday and tomorrow, is a constant fight for our rights.
Strong but unfounded beliefs have consequences
Considering how many edgelord atheists I’ve seen uncritically embrace the tenets of white supremacism I’m inclined to agree with you…
Just for fun, you should take a map of religious belief in the US by region, and overlay a map of racist beliefs and policies in the US, and note the overlap. I think you’ll discover that large coastal urban centers (where religious belief is lowest) are not hotbeds of white supremacism.
I think you’re confusing a bunch of online trolls who pick opinions specifically to get a rise, with real, actual people in the wild.
overlay a map of racist beliefs and policies in the US
There are places in the US unaffected by “racist beliefs and policies?” Seems to me that white supremacist ideology is pretty uniform across the US - the only difference is that certain types and classes of white people pretend not to be. Is this what you are referring to?
Imagine the privilege, to think everywhere is equally racist
Imagine the privilege required to believe that white supremacism is only limited to those who expresses it overtly.
As a POC, I would rather live in a place where racists are a little more afraid to be open about it, than a place where the KKK and Nazis are visible and tolerated. It turns out that many of the places where racists are most tolerated are places in the Bible Belt.
Yea, white supremacism is everywhere, but there are definitely levels to it.
Uniform? Brother never been to the South
Sure… the South hasn’t learned to hide it as well as their Northern peers.
Since you’re able to work a computer, I assume you’re competent enough to understand that two things can be bad, but one can be MORE bad. The South is currently more bad.
Even if the North is “hiding it”, as you say from under the tinfoil hat, the fact that it’s hidden means the oppression is less bad.
Closest I saw. Can you find a map? Heck would be cool to see if you wanted to make one, just if you’re really fast with that kind of thing.
Yeah we call those Nazis and generally try to distance ourselves from them and call them out when they show themselves.
try to distance ourselves from them
Why do you have to distance yourself from them? Are the differences between “you” and “them” not obvious?
This is giving the same energy as “atheists can’t have morals because morals come from god”
This is giving the same energy as
Lol! No it isn’t.
I think you missed the bit of the above post that specified that spiritual belief was fine WHEN it’s expressed in “a healthy way and it doesn’t negatively affect the people around them” - restricting abortion and marriage prohibitions both are violations of their actual premise.
I think they’re saying there is no such thing as harmless belief in the unreal.
These people vote, raise children, form relationships and live life in general, interpreting reality with a fundamental distortion. I would agree that it’s hard to claim they won’t end up harming someone.
See that I just can’t abide. So many people just want to cut other people’s grass that they can’t frame anything they don’t like as a fundamental problem to be addressed and rooted out of society as a whole. Everybody has “distortions”. You are stuck living your life through a fixed lense perspective. Your distortion might be privilege, it might be status it might be health or ability. Even the most idiotic person out there is not invalid and undeserving of happiness. What level of acuity you have is less important than whether or not you are kind. Why should belief in the unreal be any different if they still subscribe to the modern standard of what is kind?
My time in the atheist community was very short lived because I was never atheist “enough” for not actually caring if other people believed in fairies. The gatekeeping and lack of tolerance for the legitimately harmless always felt like supremacist thinking where the rubric for acceptable to be afforded basic human respect was a coin slot’s width.
None of us live our lives doing zero damage. We aren’t omnipotent, and as such, we will hurt others during our lives. We can merely hope it will be an amount too small to matter.
I would suggest that being raised atheist leaves you better equipped to understand the world in a way that more closely matches reality, and thereby enables you to more consistently avoid causing harm during your life.
Does that mean every person needs to deconvert tomorrow? No. The process in itself can end up doing more damage than it’d be preventing.
But it does mean religion can’t continue to be the default world view, if we are to improve as a society. For a better tomorrow, it does need to be phased out as quickly as it can harmlessly be achieved.
That’s why we do have to care. Deconverting grandma doesn’t matter too much, but if a relative or friend is raising a kid to be religious, preventing that is worth attempting. Another zealot in a coming generation will do more harm than good.
No kind person means to do harm, but unless you get as close to knowing reality as you can, that won’t always be enough. And even then, you’ll probably break some hearts and say things that cause someone somewhere to need more time in therapy.
But you’ll certainly be more effective in realising the things you mean to do and say, if you don’t live life thinking prayers affect reality.
As for you experience with atheists, you’re describing anti-theists. People who hold an actual stance against religion. It sound like you found some especially virtue signaling ones, bad luck.
But an atheist is just someone who doesn’t believe, not some given type of person, ideology, or the nature of your relationship with the rest of humanity.
Oh sure, the religious people out there whose deeply-held beliefs don’t affect the way they think or feel or interact with other people are fine! It’s just those people who read the book they believe was composed by God Almighty Himself as a manual for human behavior and let it actually affect their behavior (and votes) that are the problem.
In my experience, people like that will be terrible with or without religion.
The difference of “external man in the sky” vs “internal concept of my own rightness” for how they feel ok about their own actions doesn’t make a difference when they’re still a bigoted asshat at their core.
You think that something like 40% of the population of the US is voting for cruel and regressive laws just for the lulz, and it has nothing to do with their stated belief system?
Yes. The cruelty is the point. Belief systems are a nice excuse for later. They would do that either way
There’s a pretty big difference though: when you’re absolutely convinced that your own inner voice that distinguishes right from wrong is inspired by, or at least approved by, the ultimate judge of the Universe, it’s going to be incomparably harder for you to accept that you are, indeed, being an unreasonably smug asshole.
He said doesn’t negatively impact others
Erroneously.
it never negatively impacts others until suddenly it does. It’s insidious.
Also it can affect people in ways they aren’t even aware themselves.
Fortune telling for example.
My friends mum sold her house because the fortune teller told her some vague nonsense she interpreted to mean the end of the world was approaching.
I have friends who are full on religious while I’m an atheist, they know I’m not a fan of their religion but they also know that I only care if it’s making them happier and helping them, which to be fair has helped them become better people, but they were always the ones that needed some external guidance so I suppose gods a better guide than a meth dealer.
They don’t try to convert me and I don’t try to convert them and we still have fun, plus I enjoy hearing the weird AF stories from the bible, like the time Jesus got pissed at an out of season fig tree for not having figs when he wanted, so he cursed to for life, hungover entitled shit Jesus has some funny stories.
I’d like to think religious people don’t necessarily believe or remember word-for-word what happened to Jesus or Muhammad or whoever but they do learn lessons from the readings that they apply in their lives in a positive way. Or at least their intentions are positive.
It’s a routine group-based literary text analysis that gives people a reason to be together, not unlike a high school first language class.
If you wanna get old school sociological about it, you could say it fulfills a social need for cohesion that non practicing people replace by placing increased importance to other routine activities such as sports watching or working.
and it doesn’t negatively affect the people around them?
The problem is that most of the time this isn’t true.
I found out not too long ago that my best friend is perfectly willing to vote against my right to love who I want and embrace the identity that I want, and will openly (albeit only when I ask) tell me I deserve to go to hell for it. My family is even worse.
and will openly (albeit only when I ask) tell me I deserve to go to hell for it
Sorry for your loss because that’s not a friend.
You are right that they are no longer a friend, but that’s because they were brainwashed into thinking their friends perfectly normal identity is a result of Satan controlling them, or whatever. Christianity, and most other religions, cause more harm than good in our modern times.
We have outgrown religion’s usefulness as a species, but people are so afraid of death, and the meaningless of life, that they will deny reality to hold on to the hope of a better life after this one. Then, others will use this desperation to their own advantage, and convince their followers that being gay, trans, or just a little different, is an automatic heaven ban.
They’re not your friend
I don’t believe in Gawd but I certainly hope my maid does.
Cool cool, now do the one where the mother was previously being a transphobic piece of shit because “her god told her so”.
This is why I may never be able to fully repair my relationship with my religious father after my own journey out, because I love him too much to undermine the belief that sustains him as an 87 year old.
My own journey out has been incredibly painful and challenging but that is MY life path, not his. He stuck with my mother for 25 years to the very end after her Parkinsons diagnosis and he got to watch her choke to death on some food at the end.
I really believe my father doesn’t need the religion to be that good and faithful, because he is just basically made of good stuff. But I will never attack his faith even though in my heart of hearts I find the foundations of that faith to be risible. What would be gained? What would it say about me if I did?
All I want is an apology for forcing their religion onto me so aggressively as a child. I don’t think that is too much to ask, but they sure seem to think it is.
not even an apology. I don’t need anyone to be sorry. The nuns who beat me will never be sorry, they think that they’re doing it for God and nothing can be wrong when you’re doing it for God. But if one of the other adults that I trust could at least say ‘Hey, they shouldn’t have beat you with sticks. They were wrong for that.’ it would make me feel like maybe I wasn’t a fucking crazy person for not wanting to get beat with sticks. But they won’t. Everyone pretends it didn’t happen, or that it was some sort of misunderstanding, because everyone needs to maintain the delusion that everything the church does is good just because it’s the church doing it. For years I was essentially told “that didn’t happen because the church wouldn’t do that but if they did it’s because you deserved it”. What can a six year old do to deserve being beaten with a yardstick by a grown woman?
Yeah, I have no desire to “change” anyone either. As long as they are decent people, that’s enough for me.
My philosophy is if they are truly happy with what they believe and aren’t harming other people with vitriolic speech or dogmatic beliefs just leave them be. It’s not harming anything for them to comfortable in their little bubble.
But when they put on their “holier than thou … I know better and I am going to push my beliefs on you” hat the gloves are off. Although it’s unlikely you’ll change their mind, you can usually score a few jabs that rock their world just a smidgeon.
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