I just used the calc on window… it cannot respect order of operation. Any simple calculator from 1980 was better than that
I just used the calc on window… it cannot respect order of operation
Yeah, I’ve tried several times to get Microsoft to fix their calculators. I’ve given up trying now - eventually you have to stop banging your head against the wall.
Unfortunately some calculators, such as Google’s will ignore your brackets and put in their own anyway. You just gotta find a decent calculator in the first place.
It is also frustrating when different calculators have different orders of operations and dont tell you.
It is also frustrating when different calculators have different orders of operations and dont tell you.
Yeah, but to be fair most of them do tell you the order of operations they use, they just bury it in a million lines of text about it. If they could all just check with some Maths teachers/textbooks first then it wouldn’t be necessary. Instead we’re left trying to work out which ones are right and which ones aren’t. Any calculator that gives you an option to switch on/off “implicit multiplication”, then just run as fast as you can the other way! :-)
This is why every calculator should be a RPN calculator.
I still have my HP 48 series calculator. It’s a sturdy beast.
This is why every calculator should be a RPN calculator
No, this is why programmers should (re)learn the order of operations rules before writing a calculator.
(I used(LISP)one time(and it(permanently))changed the way I (program(computers)))
Did it change it in a positive way?
Negative, as you feel bad anytime you use a language that isn’t lisp
I’ve never seen a calculator that had bracket keys but didn’t implement the conventional order of operations.
But anyway, I’m on Team RPN.
https://plus.maths.org/content/pemdas-paradox
Even two casios won’t give you the same answer:
https://plus.maths.org/content/sites/plus.maths.org/files/articles/2019/pemdas/calculators.png
There’s no pemdas paradox, just people who have forgotten the order of operations rules
Even two casios won’t give you the same answer:
The one on the right is an old model. As far as I’m aware Casio no longer make any models that still give the wrong answer.
Ah, I wasn’t thinking of calculators that let you type in a full expression. When I was in school, only fancy graphing calculators had that feature. A typical scientific calculator didn’t have juxtaposition, so you’d have to enter 6÷2(1+2) as 6÷2×(1+2), and you’d get 9 as the answer because ÷ and × have equal precedence and just go left to right.
A typical scientific calculator didn’t have juxtaposition, so you’d have to enter 6÷2(1+2) as 6÷2×(1+2)
That’s not true
you’d get 9 as the answer because ÷ and × have equal precedence and just go left to right
Well, more precisely you broke up the single term 2(1+2) into 2 terms - 2 and (1+2) - when you inserted the multiplication symbol, which sends the (1+2) from being in the denominator to being in the numerator. Terms are separated by operators and joined by grouping symbols.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your source. I’m taking about physical, non-graphic scientific calculators from the 1990s.
I’m taking about physical, non-graphic scientific calculators from the 1990s.
Yep, exact same as the calculator in the linked thread. The expression entered was 6÷2(1+2).
I’ve never seen a calculator that had bracket keys but didn’t implement the conventional order of operations.
I’ve seen plenty
my dumb ass reading this: “Team rock paper nscissors”
RTS = rock taper scissors
FPS = frock paper scissors
The underlying truth of this joke is: Programming syntax is less confusing than mathematical syntax. There are genuinely ambiguous layouts of syntax in math (to a human reader that hasn’t internalized PEMDAS, anyways) whereas you get a compilation error if ANYTHING is ambiguous in programming. (yes, I am WELL aware of the frustrations of runtime errors)
So better do higher math in Python? I agree.
Python isn’t the only programming language.
But a quite common pl in science.
Counterpoint: C function pointers (or just C in general)
Also: sometimes, a mathematician just has to invent some concept or syntax to convey something unconventional. The specific use of subscript/superscript, whatever ‘phi’ is being used for, etc. on whatever paper you’re reading doesn’t have to correlate to how other work uses the same concepts. It’s bad form, but sometimes its needed, and if useful enough is added to the general canon of what we call “math”. Meanwhile, you can encapsulate and obfuscate things in software, sure, but you can always get down to the bedrock of what the language supports; there’s no inventing anything new.
Yea, that’s it. Math syntax was created for humans, and programming syntax had to always remain deterministic for computers. It’s not an insult to either, just interesting how ambiguities show up often when humans are involved. I say ‘often’ for the general case: Math should be just as deterministic as programming, but it’s not in some situations.
Math should be just as deterministic as programming, but it’s not in some situations
Maths is 100% deterministic for order of operations. The issue is people not following all of the rules. Order of operations thread index
Math is. The syntax is arbitrary in some edge cases.
The syntax is arbitrary in some edge cases
Such as?
Internalized PEMDAS without knowing it’s literally the same thing as BODMAS is exactly the problem!
what in the name of fuck is BODMAS
Same as PEMDAS, except:
Parentheses -> Bracket
Exponent -> Order
Multiplication <-> Division
BODMAS
I learned it as “BEDMAS”
Brackets
Exponents
(You can guess the rest)
But when I learned BEDMAS, my teacher directed us to do implied multiplication before other multiplication/division. Which, as far as I’m aware, is mathematically correct according to the proper order of operations (instead of whatever acronym summary you learned).
Before I get "umm. Acktually"d … I know that’s not the full picture of the order of operations as it should be in mathematics. But for the limited scope I learned of algebra from highschool, AFAIK, this is correct to the point that I have understanding of. I’m not a mathematician, and I work with computers all day long and they do the math for me when I need to do any of it. So higher understanding in my case is not helpful.
AFAIK, this is correct to the point that I have understanding of. I’m not a mathematician
I’m a Maths teacher/tutor. The actual rules are Terms and The Distributive Law. There is no such thing as “implicit multiplication” (which is usually people lumping the 2 separate rules together as one and ending up with wrong answers).
order? how does that make sense? brackets alright ig
order?
It’s actually short for “to the order of”, as in 2 squared is 2 to the order of 2. i.e. same thing as Exponent or Index.
Order of magnitude? Thinking out loud.
You have the right idea, and you are right in some regards. Generally the order of magnitude is an order of 10. That is, 1350 could be represented as 1.350×10³, so the order of magnitude is the third order of 10, which is 10³ (i.e. some value x×1000).
Order of magnitude?
It’s actually short for “to the order of”, as in 2 squared is 2 to the order of 2. i.e. same thing as Exponent or Index.
Order is often used to describe exponents when talking about functions and other mathematical properties. In a lot of cases, it’s also equivalent to a degree. For example, a function y = x² - 9 is a second-order/degree polynomial.
Alternatively, one could find a second-order rate of a reaction, which means the rate of reaction is proportional to the square of a solution’s concentration.
I mean … yea. The exact problem is math is not taught correctly. Order of operations make total logical sense for what the operations are doing.
The problem only arises when people don’t come to all of the appropriate conclusions on their own.
The exact problem is math is not taught correctly
Every single Maths textbook I’ve seen teaches it correctly. The issue is people not remembering what they were taught (and then programming a calculator without checking it first). Calculators
I, my head, shake.
- RPN user
Also known as: Japanese speaker
deleted by creator
sounds like work for a compooter
I feel this in my bones
My calculator says -2² = -4, so yeah…
Isn’t the “-” order of operations the same as a multiply ? I think I learned powers take priority over the “-” so your calculator would be right.
But either way if it can cause confusion you should use parentheses.Every calculator I’ve used has separate negative and subtraction keys for this purpose. There is no order of operations to follow, it’s just a squaring a number
it’s just a squaring a number
The number being squared is 4, unless you put (-4)², otherwise it’s 4² with a minus sign.
I learned negative as being a separate operation where we need to apply the order of operations. I think it was something like : -2 is a diminutive for -1x2 so it uses the order of operations of a multiplication.
My calculator is the official one used in schools in France (ti-83 premium ce) and it says -2^2 = -4 with the negative key. I don’t think it would make a mistake in such a simple concept.But whatever these concepts can change depending on the field, country, level of education. What I mean is : it’s unclear, so use parentheses. So (-2)^2 or -(2^2) are the correct ways to write it.
I think it was something like : -2 is a diminutive for -1x2
Correct. Things that are usually left out of Maths expressions are plus signs, ones as multipliers/indices, and un-needed brackets. e.g. I could more fully write this as -1(4)², but that just simplifies to -4²
I think I learned powers take priority over the “-”
Yes, Exponents is the 2nd-highest precedence (after Brackets) - BEDMAS.
My calculator says -2² = -4
That’s correct
I would never write -n². Either ‐(n²) or (-n)². Order of operations shouldn’t be some sort of gotcha to trick people into misinterpreting you, it’s the intuitive reading of a well constructed mathematical expression.
Either ‐(n²) or (-n)². Order of operations shouldn’t be some sort of gotcha to trick people into misinterpreting you
It isn’t. With ‐(n²), n² is already a single term, so the brackets aren’t needed.
me using sbcl for everything
Ooh I love brackets
(‿!‿) (‿O‿)
( . ) ( . ) ( . Y . )
Improved readability is always good
Also works if you dont trust yourself with correctly ordering your operations.
