Honestly its rude to be invited by a country to meet their president who decided to respond to your criticisms of their administration only to not show up and go meet the opposition.
Being invided and then no showing shows complete disregard to basic diplomatic Etiquette since it was a mission to show solidarity against the embargo
Bonus socdems being cringe part 4.5: about another member that didnt show up to the presidential meeting
Deeply unserious people
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Maria is my friend and comrade. This is bullshit. She had done nothing but act in good faith
Did she or did she not snub the president of Cuba to bloviate about some contradictory criticisms of the Cuban government that had already been addressed by said Cuban officials?
That is not good faith argumentation let alone good faith organizing, it is the definition of wrecking and undiplomatic behavior, and is made all the more egregious by the fact it is her country whose polices act as the Janus key to answer her idealist arguments as to why Cuba isn’t where SHE thinks it needs to be
And putting a bunch of weasel sentences like “are state actors above criticism” or “she organizes for trans right in Florida” deliberately ignores the main point of contention and is ironically in itself a common tactic of anti-communist infiltrators who usually seek to turn debates into arguments over character and not political substance and motivation, it’s dishonest
I thought this was a bit lmao
In prior decades the party could rely on the gains of the revolution and the formidable leadership of Fidel Castro as a source of legitimacy. But as the economic crisis threatens the country’s social programs and leadership has passed to the less-popular Miguel Díaz-Canel, Cubans increasingly show dissatisfaction with life on the island. We see this in the mass protests of 2021, smaller localized demonstrations against shortages, and nearly 5% of the population emigrating away in the past two years.
of course a fucking loser like this would cry about cuba suppressing an attempted queerphobic color revolution. she’s lucky diaz-canel didnt throw her off a cliff
Meanwhile, a notably large “No” campaign against the Family Code was led by the churches and right-wing dissident groups through social media. While the referendum passed, “No” received 33% of the vote, which is remarkably high for a government initiative in a one-party state.
Meanwhile that loser was bloviating about the 33% “No” vote while defending their political movement and whining about the Cuban government not being able to magically fix something that is the result of her country’s blockade, absolute definition of an opportunist snake just looking for wrecking angle
It’s not democracy if the right-wing religious minority doesn’t get what it wants!!!
Amazing, managed to sneak in a jab at totalitarianism 1984 when discussing a vote with vocal opposition.
Anyway, why didn’t Diaz-Canel press the button that magically eliminates all reactionary opinions? Is it because he’s secretly Hitler?
Of course if he did press that magical button, he would still secretly be Hitler
the collapse of the Soviet Union and Stalinism in Eastern Europe
Yikes
Cuba’s socialist project, even with a repressive state bureaucracy
These meetings mostly consisted of us receiving lectures followed by a Q&A period, instead of any even exchange of ideas, tactics, and advice
Imagine being a 20 year old American and thinking you have anything to offer Cuba, fucking seppos
also, what the fuck is a Q&A session if not explicitly an open exchange of ideas, tactics, and advice?
20 year old Americans do have something to offer Cuba:
-
Money
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Apologies
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End of list
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I love it when I, a communist who actively does not (or at least should not) subscribe to liberalism and its thought-terminating cliches, gives a speech which is 90% undiscernable from a United States government statement on Cuba
I genuinely don’t think I can take a single person who unironically uses the term “Stalinism” seriously at this point. Maybe there’s some extremely specific usage revolving around the leadership of the Josef Stalin (and not every single slightly “authoritarian” leader) where it could still have some value, but I doubt it. For non-leftists, it’s just another thought-terminating word that liberals fling around to refer to anybody they don’t like, like “tankie”. For people who purport to be leftists, it’s a way of preserving anti-communist brainworms in situations where Stalin is viewed positively - sure, Stalin might have been a generally good, even great, figure, but Stalinism implicitly invokes the American propaganda about gulags and clapping for hours during his speeches and execution for saying even the slightest thing wrong.
I want the list of the 15 people who upvoted their comment so I can add them to my block list
It’s probably people you’ve already got on there, the radlibs on here show their whole ass constantly. For instance I had completely forgotten about zifnab having had them blocked for months. I’d even considered clearing my block list but then I discovered through this thread that he’s still on his bullshit.
lmao same, this thread is remarkably pleasant seeing only one lib showing their whole ass cause we’re being mean to their friend or something
She may do good work elsewhere. She may have some valid criticisms (I cannot speak to this as I have not evaluated them).
However, when you’re sent as a delegate of an ostensibly Socialist organization to one of very few actually existing Socialist countries and you get the immense privelege and oppurtunity to meet with the President of the country and First Secretary of the Communist Party YOU MEET WITH THEM.
To do so otherwise - again as a delegate of a supposedly Socialist org trying to make international connections - is so far beyond a faux-paux I’m not sure what to call it.
To do so otherwise - again as a delegate of a supposedly Socialist org trying to make international connections - is so far beyond a faux-paux I’m not sure what to call it.
It’s called sabotage. She skipped out on the meeting to deal with people who participated in the abortive color revolution from a few years back. She’s an op.
This is bullshit. She and you believe in nothing but securing Democratic Party staffer jobs for yourselves. You are a counter-revolutionary.
Maria is an embarrassment and an idiot and defending her makes you culpable in the chauvinism she displays.
Edit: PS I should mention that she’s a Trot and “making liberals into communists” really means, “make liberals into counterproductive ultras”. Literally an entryist caucus.
This is bullshit. She had done nothing but act in good faith and provided factual, well considered criticism
Maybe she should have then attended the meeting with the President of Cuba who offered to address her criticism then instead of declining the meeting and running off to speak to the opposition while giving credence to Miami gusanos
Maria has been working non stop for as long as I’ve known her.
So what? That’s only slightly above the minimum bar for being a political activist. She could have shown up to the meeting, or is her critique worth so little that she can’t even back it up with a little eye contact?
You’re arguing in extremely bad faith. Deliberately skipping out on the discussion session (refusing to actually engage in critique) and then posting a giant screed (literally being the online left, infiltrated in about 1000 ways) is absolutely not constructive and absolutely should be called out. Disengage now.
I will leave your post up only because the receipts you provided are actually arguing the opposite of your awful point.
Maria’s post: https://reformandrevolution.org/2024/02/17/cuba-between-imperialism-and-socialism/
DSA international committee defending Maria for this chauvinist shit, which should be seen as proof that it is western chauvinism: https://twitter.com/cearaos/status/1780785735055868107?s=46
By “thousand blossoms” is this person referring to the thousand bucks CIA Front groups allegedly paid to the person Maria talked to?
Bullshit she skipped a meeting with the president. You can jabber all you want but actions speak louder than words. She has no grounds to criticize the Cuban government as an American she needs to shut the fuck up and get her priorities in order. It is pathetic chauvinism and you should relay to her how pathetic this was. She’s incapable of turning herself into a comrade and acts like a Liberal so I doubt your words
Oh another chauvinist part of the DSA “stepped forward to defend her criticisms” of Cuba? Who cares? Libs defending libs doesn’t make it less lib
I agree. The US government has levied untold suffering onto the Cuban people and the Cuban President was still willing to sit down with them. The US is Cuba’s oppressor and despite that there are people in the DSA who would like to waste their breath pretending that they have a principled Marxist critique rather than combat their own governments cruelty. Imperial Chauvinism. I am sure that Maria thinks that she has a better understanding of Cuba’s conditions than Cubans themselves, but she is just wasting people’s time and hurting the movement she pretends to espouse.
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If you hate heads of state, why would you go on a delegation who plans on meeting one? Organize your own shit instead of riding coat tails losers
from my reading of this, the “comrade” wanted to make the trip about the “crisis of political legitimacy” in Cuba and how the leadership are autocratic and bureaucratic. From her article:
But there is a second aspect of the crisis which we did not focus on during this delegation: a crisis of political legitimacy. Cuba’s government is a regime where decision-making power rests in the hands of the Central Committee of the PCC (the only legal political party) alongside its bureaucracy while the elected legislature is a disempowered rubber-stamp committee. Legally recognized mass organizations we met with on this delegation, like the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Cuban Women, and the Workers’ Central Union of Cuba, are loyal to the bureaucracy, while independent political organizing is repressed.
so instead of going to the delegation as planned, she pulled an immature stunt as “protest” to get attention to her “cause” and center the conversation in the DSA about Cuba’s “crisis of political legitimacy”. This is just open and naked chauvinism, and when the groups she met with didn’t conform to her idealist chauvinist pigheaded view, she shits on them and calls them “loyal to the bureaucracy”
Having an oppressive bureaucracy is when the head of state is able to take time off his busy schedule to personally meet with you.
Umm have you considered authoritarianism Orwell 1984? Exercising power is bad, we must let our enemies steamroll us and let the state completely fall apart while being targeted by the US, for that is the ultimate expression of freedom
some annoying random american, no less
I haven’t had time to read the articles but sounds about right. Self centered behavior on part of the “comrade”. Pure sabotage.
Diaz Canel was a fierce supporter of LGBT+ rights, he send doctor missions during the covid pandemic to help other countries like Mexico and Italy, continue support of palestine, he is not Biden, he responded to their criticism and hosted the DSA in Cuba, at least they should have meet the guy
Socialist ones? Yes. Are you some fucking chauvinist too or what? Even reactionaries like Kissinger met with socialist heads of state for diplomacy. Your friend is more of a chauvinist arrogant unprofessional idiot than fucking Kissinger, let that soak in
you cannot in the same breath levy criticisms and refuse to entertain the head of state specifically trying to meet with you to discuss said criticisms. it is petty and chauvinistic and betrays an idea that your aim of criticism is destructive rather than constructive–an attempt to jettison ideologically from the project rather than contribute to it. if they truly wanted to see the communist experiment in Cuba succeed, they would jump at the chance to communicate their ideas with the people currently running it.
Ultra chauvinists like Maria call for debate but they really just want to platform their own ridiculous positions and listen to no one. This is par for the course in what counts as debate among this brand of Trots.
Meeting with someone is definitely the same thing as loving them
Anti-imperialist while meeting with people working with NED. Fuck out of here. Hope she never shows her ass south of the border again. Stay the fuck out of Latin America and let us continue to make gains while people like her keep getting cucked by the Democrats and their geriatric leadership.
The level of disrespect is absolutely disgusting and it’s clear she views Americans as being above Cubans and Latin Americans. She apparently doesn’t support Cuba’s trans rights by stupidly opposing how they managed to make it happen.
Does she want the Cuban left to be more like the Guatemalan left who despise trans people and regard them as subhuman? After all, they’re being more “Democratic” by taking in the opinions of Evangelical chuds and incorporating them into the party as a “bottoms-up” approach.
Miss me with that “parroting the online left” bullshit. This childish nonsense is why the American left will never be taken seriously if they keep doing this shit.
Cool, why skip out on a meeting with the President of Cuba’s government to discuss it in a constructive way then?
“To indulge in irresponsible criticism in private instead of actively putting forward one’s suggestions to the organization. To say nothing to people to their faces but to gossip behind their backs, or to say nothing at a meeting but to gossip afterwards. To show no regard at all for the principles of collective life but to follow one’s own inclination. This is a second type.”
Maria has been working non stop for as long as I’ve known her. She’s one of the best comrades I’ve had the pleasure of working with. She is a machine that turns liberals into communists. She has tirelessly organized for trans rights in Florida of all places. She is an anti-imperialist through and through.
“To regard oneself as having rendered great service to the revolution, to pride oneself on being a veteran, to disdain minor assignments while being quite unequal to major tasks, to be slipshod in work and slack in study. This is a tenth type.”
Yeah reading her blog post OP posted to exculpate her that fact is pretty clear reading between the lines. Just clown shit, no investigation no right to speak.
Damn I just witnessed a murder lmao
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You are posting extreme liberal cringe
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Blah blah blah, she’s a representative of an organization and she acted undiplomatically, unprofessionally and in a disrespectful way that is consistent with chauvinist actions. You haven’t presented a single argument why this is acceptable behavior just went off on insults and “she’s a million times more of a comrade than you” bludgeoning. This was a disgrace to internationalism and socialist solidarity.
You don’t get to make a huge comment with insults and get the last word, then disengage. This is abuse of the feature
Don’t quote Mao to me.
those who don’t want mao quoted to them need mao quoted to them the most
And what’s OP’s problem with Mao? Is he not white enough?
Ummm this random DSA organizer has done ten times more praxis than Mao ever could!!!
Her criticisms come from an incredibly idealist perspective and are divorced from any understanding of power or how a communist party functions. Even lauding Fidel, but ignoring him: “within the revolution, everything; against the revolution, nothing”. introducing “alternative leftist voices” for its own sake accomplishes nothing but sating the unending liberal tendency to act indecisively and fight amongst each other, even when facing an existential threat. Constantly railing against the “bureaucracy” and constantly trying to create a distinction between the communist party from the masses, from the perspective of an outsider… from the imperial core… from the US no less, the primary enemy of the Cuban revolution… It is incredibly telling that that is what she spends her time on. If she is such an incredible organizer and ardent communist
then she should focus on revolution within the USHer criticisms come from an incredibly idealist perspective and are divorced from any understanding of power or how a communist party functions
I’ll emphasize again, and not a attack on the person who wrote it but a reminder of reality, DSA is not a communist party.
It is not a leninist party of the new type, it is a social democratic party in function regardless of whatever form they or anyone else claim to be.
But there is a second aspect of the crisis which we did not focus on during this delegation: a crisis of political legitimacy. Cuba’s government is a regime where decision-making power rests in the hands of the Central Committee of the PCC (the only legal political party) alongside its bureaucracy while the elected legislature is a disempowered rubber-stamp committee. Legally recognized mass organizations we met with on this delegation, like the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Cuban Women, and the Workers’ Central Union of Cuba, are loyal to the bureaucracy, while independent political organizing is repressed.
This is from that “comrade” who skipped the meeting with the president. Tells you all you need to know about them. The DSA didn’t focus on this “second aspect” but she really wanted to hijack the trip and make it about this instead of the blockade, so she pulled some immature stunt to get attention for her idealist bullshit
You saw the other comment I made about if I pulled a diplomatic faux pas like that I would want to resign out of embarrassment?
I really hope she feels embarrassment on a whole different magnitude
Bloviating about your concerns and then refusing to meet with the President of the fucking country to address those very concerns shows that it’s just a bad faith stunt to put yourself on a pedestal above the unclean impure real-life socialist country that has to deal with matters of practical governance.
Vague critiques of “authoritarianism” betray a total lack of understanding as to the functioning of literally any state on the planet.
The whole “how can you criticize X when they’ve been doing things in real life while you just sit there with your stupid books”, aside from being presumptuous, is just bog standard anti-intellectualism that friend of the site Roderic Day does a much better job of taking apart than me.
friend of the site Roderic Day does a much better job of taking apart than me.
I thought people were joking about that until I saw him actually talking about hexbear and saying our doomers are dooming too much
I agree completely. The DSA has been an anti-communist project from its conception. This person claims to be giving a “marxist critique” though, and that is what I was addressing. The unfortunate reality is that many people with revolutionary aspirations end up being siphoned into DSA and believe that they are communists. But in reality, most people who join the DSA are exposed to these garbage takes, the incessant factionalism, and ineffectual action, and think that that is what socialist organizing is. They become disaffected and it drives people away from communist parties and organizing in general when the goal should be to bring people in and change their understanding of democracy into a participatory, socialist one. Most DSA members are just members on paper because of this.
Yep. I joined DSA back in 2016 and quickly got burnt out on the backbiting, drama and liberal signaling and stopped attending after just a few meetings and events. I went on to go to other communist groups, but if I had stuck around there I would still be sitting around in meetings with people bickering about whether Cuba is an autocracy or not.
I encourage anyone reading this to revive this discussion I started about improving DSA on a local level.
Hello fellow comrades, like you I am a lover of communism, but we must keep in mind that activates John Kirby mode, recites State Department briefing verbatim
Yes, truly one of the two sheepdog tailers for the DNC, regardless of how many ride-alonger fleas there are trying to change its course by tugging at its hairs.
I’ll emphasize again, and not a attack on the person who wrote it but a reminder of reality, DSA is not a communist party.
Not a communist party, yet
Hopefully the more effectively organized left wing can succeed in eventually taking it over, this last wave of elections seems promising to that effect.
:bloomer:
entryism has never worked a single time in history i’m pretty sure
The only time it worked was when Kenyan communists took over a socdem party, and the very big difference between their entryism and virtually every other instance of entryism is that Kenya had banned communist parties, so there was no way to openly organize as communists. After Kenya lifted the ban on communist parties, there was a line struggle between social democrats who wanted the Social Democratic Party to stay a social democratic party and communists who used the Social Democratic Party to get around the ban on communist parties with the communists winning out. Once they kicked the socdems to the curb, they changed the party’s name to the Communist Party of Kenya.
Not saying to do entryism, I think the org is organically moving left as left folks have more success.
The trots that infiltrated the DNC thought the same thing back in the day, but look how that turned out.
I guess the question is is the DSA hopelessly captured by the dems or not? I know my local chapter isn’t, I know some who are, I’m not sure about nationals.
It’s not going to become one. The only similar outcome would occur due to a split.
I’d settle for a split that creates a national communist organization
She could save others from Liberalism but not herself
Trotskyists attacking the CPC while the country is being invaded by the genocidal IJA vibes
I’ll pass your message along
Organizing is about building capacity to engage in action. Recruiting, educating, and getting other people involved and connected.
If you’re really good at doing that for the purposes of chauvinism, ignorance, and toeing the line of the NED constellation of bullshit, you are not doing a good thing and are doing something that is actually very easy in the context of an the American supremacist liberal environment in which everyone has been raised.
To your first point, it seems as though her main complaint was there wasn’t much of a way to dialogue with both party officials and the critical left she talks about.
To your second, no one likes when someone they know and respect is being fed-jacketed.
How useful her critiques are when even the non-government critical-voice she talked to (Maykel Vivero) said:
the most systemic change must happen through a change of policy in the United States. Absent that, the most likely possibilities for Cuba’s future would be 1.) a Chinese-style mixed economy, which would significantly increase inequality and leave workers without a democratic voice, or 2.) a full capitalist restoration, which would be a world-historic disaster for the working-class.
I think even she doesn’t really see the realities, considering she thinks Cuba’s standard of living can be raised and there can be less discontent if more voices are heard.
She wants the support to be more critical, but considering how bad the embargo is (and everyone in her group and the Cubans she talk to agree about), it seems as if this is largely a pointless exercise. No government is perfect, but what can you do from America where more people are pushing for an overthrow than an embargo lift. Weird not to mention Allende in this whole discussion too.
She literally posted in her critique that she met Maykel Vivero, who did positive coverage of the San Isidro movement. The San Isidro Movement leader Luis Manuel Otero Alcántara took money from an org that gets money from USAID and NED. Like don’t do fed shit if you’re gonna complain about people thinking you’re a fed. And yea, fed jacketing is bad but that’s like literally fed shit.
There are several DSA caucuses that parrot US State Department and NED-funded talking points uncritically.
I think they’re mostly naive, selfish, and chauvinist, i.e. true believers in wrong ideas rather than feds. Though in effect it doesn’t really matter.
I gotta memorize all the types of liberalism so I can drop them for devastating rebuttals like this
It was the two succdem caucuses, the image describing events is from the commie caucus calling out their asses
Hopefully Maria and Renée get blowback for this.
R&R are communists. This is from Redstar not Commie Caucus. You literally have no clue what you are talking about. Commie caucus generally doesn’t care about DSA internals, they are into renters unions
I said the commie caucus not the Commie caucus
The Commie caucus are less commie then Red Star.
Also I was calling R&R succdem as a reductionist insult, what would be a more accurate insult?
R&R split from Socialist Alternative to join DSA. They’re Trotskyists.
I don’t know comrade, I don’t know the rules of this game you are playing. But I know this debate and the people involved. Its not my fault you can’t keep your facts straight, maybe keep quiet if you’re clueless. No investigation, no something something
I think you’re misreading me in search of a dunk.
I don’t want to dunk, I have to defend my comrade
Do you have to defend your comrade when they’re doing lib shit like refusing to meet with the president of Cuba?
We joke about Mao’s “combat liberalism” on this site a lot, but this is EXACTLY the time where those principles are meant to be exercised. You do not HAVE to defend them.
Defending your comrade from bad actions they took just because they’re your comrade is liberal bullshit and you are a disappointment
Cool it with the name-calling, please edit.
Just ban them for being a DSA chauvinist
Edited
Thanks
R&R are Trots that consistently adopt anticommunist, Western chauvinist positions.
I mean, singling these losers out is cool, but it seems weird to call out all of DSA for the ugly behavior of these two bad actors. After all, this is a statement coming from within DSA. Its not coming from the Cubans themselves. The fucking President took time to meet with them, which would seem to suggest Cuban organizers are largely supportive of these outreach efforts.
Giving these two tickets was a mistake. But organizing the trip, getting Americans to visit the island, and putting them face-to-face with a bonafide AES state leader should be a huge mark in DSA’s favor.
I’ll call out all of the DSA for wasting everyones time and energy giving life support to DNC instead of growing the PSL or Greens.
I wish there were more left orgs but the PSL and the Greens aren’t it.
is the genuine revolutionary vanguard in the United StatesCopy of my other response: The way they respond to sexual abuse allegations, I’ve also heard they have a very non-leninist idea of what democratic centralism entails.
Also the ones in my area seem more interested in recruiting than doing literally anything at all outside of recruiting
Did you read the linked article? It goes into more detail about the organizational failures not limited to two participants.
It does, but I’m reading it as an outcropping of the fractured state of the returning committee membership.
I can’t speak to what the International Committee facilitated, but I can say I’ve seen some off-shot of the delegation’s visit via Noah Pasarán regarding the history of the embargo and its long term and most recent economic consequences. This is some of the most real and informative coverage of the Cuban Embargo I’ve had the opportunity to access, and I would consider this kind of outreach invaluable when attempting to shift views on our foreign policy.
To dismiss the efforts of the DSA participants as a whole seems shortsighted, as it appears more radicalized members of the delegation such as Noah continued to advocate for and send support to the country.
The article also seems to completely neglect that the DSA delegation brought 500 lbs of medical supplies to the island. Which seems like a bigger thing to crow about than two naysayers with shitty attitudes.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
It’s written by DSA members trying to improve the DSA, it seems pretty clear they’d focus on what they want to improve rather than back-patting themselves on aid they brought.
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If the scope of your plan for Cuba is limited to the amount of supplies you can carry in suitcases, you might want to find more productive places to focus your efforts to help Cuba. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not focus on the drop-in-the-bucket level of material support their delegation was able to bring for an entire nation. Either way, I guarantee the writers of the article can walk and chew gum just like the rest of us can.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not focus on the drop-in-the-bucket level of material support
Then why fixate on the two members of a two dozen person delegation you’ve got beef with?
I don’t see anything in this article about the next step in extending relief to Cuba. I don’t even see a “follow my link to learn how to help us do X”.
The impression I get from this article is that the visit was a mistake, the DSA International Committee won’t be following up or doing anything like it again, and members should feel bad about even making this much of an effort.
Your criticism seems to boil down to “they should be doing X instead of writing this article” and I must once again suggest that they can do more than just write an article. The purpose of the article is clear. You might not like it, but it doesn’t mean the article is the sum total of the writer’s efforts.
What a silly argument. I’m done.
If this is how they act, this isn’t a mark in their favor it’s a fucking disgrace and Cubans will soon move on to another group with less chauvinist predispositions
Other groups send delegations to Cuba regularly, including PSL and Cuba-specific groups like those opposing the embargo. I’m not sure if FRSO has a delegation or not, or whether they join some of the amalgamation delegations that go every do often (they probably do one of those options).
I mean, singling these losers out is cool, but it seems weird to call out all of DSA for the ugly behavior of these two bad actors. After all, this is a statement coming from within DSA. Its not coming from the Cubans themselves. The fucking President took time to meet with them, which would seem to suggest Cuban organizers are largely supportive of these outreach efforts.
Disagree. An organization is responsible for their members especially when their members are clearly acting in bad faith.
edit: A strong and healthy organization should be able to absorb the criticism and make internal improvements to regain public faith.
None of the goals are mentioned, none of the organizations leaders are named, and there’s no mention of when or how the author plans to
materially intervene against our government’s imperialist aggression by dismantling the embargo
The author as in the critic blasting the 2 losers? like is the critic supposed to be incompetent?
The author as in the critic blasting the 2 losers?
The opening complaint is that the International Committee didn’t follow up on the trip properly. This seems to be an indictment of the entire visit, as if the author is trying to dismiss it as a vacation for spoiled rich kids.
No word on who else attended or what they accompolished or how they planned to continue outreach to Cuba. Just some wishy-washy “We should be fighting imperialism at home” with no other plan of action.
Demanding that people come up with a detailed 69-point plan for global revolution before they can criticize social chauvinism in their party is absurd and bad faith behavior on your part
I might be ignorant on this, but did DSA call these people out or apologize for their behavior? Because they were essentially acting as diplomats for the org and if not strongly refuted then indeed reflect badly on the org as a whole.
I might be ignorant on this, but did DSA call these people out or apologize for their behavior?
Impossible to tell from this article
The DSA isn’t a single entity really, it’s a decentralized mass of tons of different squabbling groups. Some of them are attempting to repudiate them, others are defending them. The DSA isn’t really capable of enforcing discipline on its members.
:deeply-unserious:
This whole organization is a mess, being able to keep a cogent message for the party is the bare minimum in organizing political action
It’s not a party though. It’s a site of struggle and a place where communists can organize and educate among a very large membership of people open to left wing politics.
How effective is that if all they have been able to produce is more liberals
That’s not the case though. This article should serve as an example of that. Red Star was a small ML caucus in San Francisco a few years back. Now they’re a national force that hold a sizable number of positions in DSA national leadership including one of DSA’s two cochairs. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the authors of this article were liberals when they first joined DSA.
I’d say the DSA is LARPing as the CNT-FAI with all the disfunction and infighting, but we all know that 90% of the DSA don’t deserve the honor of being compared to people who actually went out and shot fascists.
These fucking idiots get the possibility of meeting with and creating an ally for their cause with state resources that has actively used those resources to secretly fund and support foreign causes in the past and they stupidly do this shit?
Absolute fucking idiots. I have no other words. The complete and total failure to see an opportunity presenting itself to these morons is beyond stupidity.
The complete and total failure to see an opportunity presenting itself to these morons is beyond stupidity.
It’s beyond stupidity alright. No one is this fucking stupid, so the only reasonable conclusion is that they’re ops.
Lol no, they’re just idealists.
Idealism was the ultimate op.
The ultimate
People of the movement
I genuinely don’t think they actually thought through any of this. They’ve treated it like it’s some school trip where a class gets to meet the prez and say a few words. Not as a real and serious political organisation trying to make ties that will benefit their cause.
Would they behave this way with the UK? With Norway or Sweden? Countries that wouldn’t give them the time of day and wouldn’t support them? Would they offend them with criticisms of how they run their states if given any kind of diplomatic welcome? I somehow think they wouldn’t. They’d treat it like a westerners day out.
They went there to lecture them. Imbeciles. A country that in the past has not been against literally arming their allies in foreign nations. Let alone providing lukewarm resource support.
Just incredible shortsightedness. These are people you should be building trust with to eventually reach the point of collaboration.
They went there to lecture them.
Exactly. Why did this arrogant westoid think they have any right to share their “critiques” anyway. Extremely patient and kind of Diaz-Canal to even entertain their bullshit and offer them a private meeting to address their critiques. Critiques and reforms of the Cuban project should come from Cubans, not from Americans. Why does she think she has any right to dictate anything to the Cubans whatsoever? She’s so arrogant she thinks she has the solution while Cubans are just too stupid to figure it out? She should have been there to learn, not to lecture.
How ironic that her defenders try to attack others with “she’s actually doing something in real life” when she’s a rep from a succdem party trying to lecture a socialist country governed by the heirs to a real life, actual, communist revolution.
I’ve noticed the “X has done more praxis than you ever could” is a very common line from radlibs and succs and the squishier types of leftists when they can’t actually defend them based on any argument or principles. Every time I’ve heard it has been in defense of AOC or Bernie or NJR or someone similar.
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No trust me there are people exactly this stupid and they’re the dominant members of the DSA.
The DSA is made up primarily of Sanders Dems and entryist Trots that think they’re very sneaky. There are minorities that are better but these groups are louder and maintain their positions by being exhausting, i.e. fundamentally liberal.
The trots and succdems are currently the minority faction on the national political committee?
Bread and Roses are Trots. They have almost out-sneaked themselves to the point that many members don’t know their ideological heritage. Bread and Roses brought a Hong Kong protester to the 2023 convention and is anti-China in a precisely Trot way. Its internationalism focuses almost exclusively on independent trade unions, usually in opposition to anti-imperialist organizations and actions. They aligned with the libs to kill the BDS working group and do the exact same kinds of things that Maria did.
MUG is neo-Trot. They don’t specifically highlight Trotsky but their focuses are all the things Trots in DSA care about and frame. They are less focused on causing drama, though.
SMC, Groundwork/GND are SocDems.
Red Star and Communist Caucus are the only not terrible DSA groups anyone might recognize. And they’re still a bit lackluster because they’re trying to reform a reformist org into something a bit more commie without being abrasive which is basically impossible given the opposition.
DSA itself arose from a Trot trying to be more reformist so it’s not surprising to see that legacy everywhere.
Tallying up just B&R, SMC, and Groundwork, that’s 11 of the 18 NPC positions. If you include MUG, it’s 13 of the 18.
Source: some of my comrades try to do commie things in the DSA and complain to me a lot.
Huh. I was misinformed. Why are there trots siding with the ML adjacent groups over other trots and succdems?
There are specific reasons but don’t forget that the people Trots fight with the most are always each other.
But basically they have different ideas about what direction to go in and how to “lead” “the movement”. They’re like little parties within a party but neither of those things is really a party at all. But seeking self-promotion and being more vanguardy than each other is part of it.
Trots that think they’re very sneaky.
giggling rn
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Arrogant American chauvinists literally cannot help themselves
How to build bridges, apparently
- Go to foreign nation and berate it’s leadership
- Skip meeting with it’s president who actually was going to try and address aforementioned comments
Why the fuck are you even going to Cuba as a member of a political party if you skip a meeting with the goddamn president? This should get them expelled, but I suppose that might be too authoritarian.
To platform your bad ideas.
They’re both from groups that define themselves through anticommunism. They think doing good actions involves attacking countries run by communist parties and parroting the NGO-industrial complex lines. They think they’re so clever.
not surprising. shameful, pathetic behavior, but not surprising in the least.
Idea for a
bitserious reform of the DSA: AES country invites DSA leadership to visit, then refuses to grant exit visas until they’ve harvested 100 tonnes of wheat by hand.
Avignon
papacyDSA
The 1959 Cuban Revolution was a key event that galvanized and inspired the growing New Left in the 1960s. Cuba became viewed as a radical and anti-imperialist third world country worthy of praise by many of the radical activists of the 1960s.[3]
In 1969, SDS was composed of competing factions with individual priorities and visions.[4] SDS delegates travelled to Havana, and were inspired by Fidel Castro’s New Year’s Day speech, in which he called on Cubans to help with the sugar harvest.[5] Although the Americans originally offered to help by taking industrial jobs displaced by the massive sugar harvest, Fidel reportedly responded that if North Americans were to help, they would cut cane.[6]
Touch
grasssugar cane- Fidel
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If I were to conduct a diplomatic faux pas on that level, I would resign from embarrassment.
nah instead double down and cause internal strife in your organization, that’s the American pigheaded way
Well shit, that’s a truism anywhere you go lol.
If I got to visit the actual fucking leader of Cuba then I would be there early and probably listen for the vast majority of the time; berating or asking sectarian questions would be almost at the bottom of my list. They’re the people who have succeeded while we have failed, we have to listen to them
I really hate succdems
Goes to show how hilariously distant the Cuban government is from the cartoon of a totalitarian cartel regime US media paints them as that Canel even bothered to hear them out.
it is time, Maria and ReneéIs it really a struggle session? Everybody except one (Banned
) person is in agreement that they should be at least ejected be from the org for this shameful display.I mostly meant it in the literal, historical sense
public spectacles in Maoist China where people accused of being “class enemies” were publicly humiliated, accused
Why the fuck would you even go if you don’t actually car-- it’s just political tourism
For context this article is written by a caucus in DSA called Red Star. They’re MLs and part of a Marxist majority on DSA’s leadership committee. One of the two cochairs of DSA is from this caucus. The members being criticized here are from R&R, a Trotskyist caucus with no representation in leadership, and SMC, a social democratic caucus that is part of a minority in leadership.
I think this context is important because it seems most people outside of DSA don’t understand how it works. It’s not the most well defined organization but thats has allowed it to accumulate a large number of members. As such, it’s become a site of struggle with many dedicated communists trying to educate and radicalize open minded members. It shouldn’t be written off.
jesus christ, imagine being able to meet the top goat of cuba and SKIPPING OUT
fucking losers
