There’s a difference between eating meat and condoning animal abuse. For most vegetarians this is impossible to comprehend it seems. But they will happily drive cars on liquefied dinosaurs, use plastics and buy phones which were made by exploiting children and poor people. While at the same time claiming fish is not meat.
No, there isn’t. But people don’t want to be confronted with this fact.
Neither do vegetarians want to face the fact most medications and almost all vaccines you take were tested on animals, if not produced by animals. So if you don’t want to be a hypocrite and don’t want to stop acting smug, I suggest stopping all medication and medicine use. I mean we don’t want to condone animal abuse.
must be tiring be you. with the sensibilities of an angry 14 year old
Yes, call me names because of lacking arguments to my comment, very mature thing to do.
All I see in this comment section are arguments to your comment.
Wouldn’t want to beat a dead horse. That’s unvegan.
The most accepted definition of veganism goes:
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”
Emphasis added. Your argument is valid, in that modern medicine, vaccines, and animal testing are all challenges vegans need to address. This is something that’s a lot harder and less clear cut than diet or not wearing certain clothing. Not every vegan agrees on what the best course of action is either, but most lean toward at least not being anti-vaccine. Self-preservation pretty clearly counts under the possible and practical part of the definition.
But that does not invalidate the very real differences and good that does come from going vegan, for ourselves, for the animals who are spared a life of hell, and for the planet.
There is a difference between not doing something that is purely done for enjoyment (eating meat, you can live perfectly fine and be healthy without) and not taking medication. Additionally, vegans want to stop exploiting animals for human benefit, so they are in favor of not doing animal testing anyways.
That’s the problem with your assumptions then. You assume people only eat meat because of joy. Not because it’s cheap and highly nutritious part of the diet. It’s significantly easier to be a soy latte sipping hipster in first world country living in temperate climate where due to good economy choice is abundant. Try moving more north where growing seasons as short or non-existent. Or living in a third world country where choice of food is not as rich.
Geography is a very strong influence on local diet. In northern places where farming is limited people breed sheep and mutton is a staple food. Go south and fruits and vegetables become more dominant. You can’t go to Mongolia and tell them not to eat meat when their entire country consists of dirt covered rock barely enough deep to grow grass.
Yeah, where I live, pork and beef are the dominant meats because pigs and cows consume parts of the plants humans don’t eat, be it corn or wheat stalks. It’s cheap way to produce more food without requiring any more land. Without animals, we’d have to burn that remainder and throw it away.
As for stopping exploitation of animals, that will never happen. It’s wishful thinking. Abuse should be abolished and punished by all means, but exploitation is here to stay. You can try and reduce your dependency on it, but never get rid of it. We are higher in the food chain and pretty much everyone, and I literally mean everyone, would rather some animal testing goes on if it means saving their ass sometime in the future. Claiming anything otherwise means being a hypocrite because at the end of the day we all care about ourselves the most.
Again you’re being factually incorrect about agriculture. The plants and plant parts that humans can’t eat are important sources of nutrients for composting and building soil fertility. And animals do have a place in agriculture, and that place is a free-living association where humans and animals mutually benefit from each other.
What would I know, being born in a family who works in agriculture, especially compared to someone who probably never held farm utensil in their hands. Ever heard of bales of hay? You think those are left on the land for composting? Haha.
I am not expecting every person on earth to stop consuming meat immediately. If some people in Mongolia have some cows and sheep on their farm, sure, that is already so much better than factory farming. Factory farming makes up about 90% percent of worldwide meat production, and that is the main thing people are talking about when discussing meat production. Factory farming is responsible for massive ecological damage due to animal waste, ie their shit and cows farting methane, on top of being extremely cruel. And then there is the overabundance of antibiotics used to keep the animals somewhat healthy (“healthy” is really a stretch here), which helps diseases build immunities to those antibiotics.
As for cost, meat is heavily subsidized (at least where I live), so we are all paying part of the cost for it through taxes. It is not as cheap as you might think when seeing it in a supermarket.
As for stopping exploitation of animals, that will never happen. It’s wishful thinking.
That’s just baseless conjecture, just because you lack the imagination to think of a world without or at the very least way less exploitation does not mean it cannot be achieved. And I’d rather have little exploitation than a lot, it’s not a binary choice between “changing nothing” and “completely removing exploitation, which is impossible, so let’s just do nothing”.
Oh and the house you live in was built on land which was home to animals.
Give it back to them.
deleted by creator
I don’t eat vegetables. Even raw carrots taste like bitter hell to me. Even with a nearly anti-vegan diet I can confidently say we have an ethical imperative to move away from animal products, with factory farming being the most fucked.
There’s a lot to unpack here…
I don’t see how you can not see the correlation of keeping animals trapped and in shitty situations to inevitably kill them when they’re literally still children as not being animal abuse.
Liquified dinosaurs :')
In seriousness, veganism is about making the best changes you can. Nobody is perfect but you try to do the least damage you can do. Plus it’s a spectrum, there of course will be some vegans that don’t care/know much about how certain commodities are built on the suffering of others. Plus some “vegans” are just plant based and are just in it for personal health so they wouldn’t care about the ethics in it all and the hypocrisy you talk about.
Also extra note. Don’t look at them focusing on the suffering of animals meaning they don’t care for human suffering. They do. When those at the bottom get brought up it will bring the others above them higher too. It’s a two birds one stone kind of situation (pardon the hypocritical pun ;p)
I’ve never ever heard of a vegan say fish isn’t meat. If a vegan is eating fish, they’re not vegan (same goes for honey, but that’s a different topic). They’re a pescatarian that eats a lot of plant based foods.
Veganizing bad idioms can be hard. I’ve taken to saying, “feeding two birds with one scone,” for that one.
Sounds weird with my accent where scone is more like sconn rather than rhyming with cone haha
Getting two birds stoned at once.
Also vegans don’t eat fish or any animal products.
Yup. Made a mistake.
The meat industry is organized animal abuse, there is no doubt about it. It doesn’t have to be that way but by all accounts it is. If you can eat meat procured separately from these industrialized processes that is great, but that cannot be scaled to meet all current demands for meat.
I can source meat separately from industrialized processes, as can many others, if not all. The reason why they don’t has nothing to do with condoning animal abuse it’s pure convenience and price. But it’s disingenuous to lump everyone together.
As far as sustainability is concerned, neither can everyone switching to plant diet be scaled up to meet the demand. People just assume animals are taking up arable land that can be used for human food production, which is not true. Huge amounts of pastures can’t be used for anything else. More to the point animal feed is made from discard products of plant based foods, things like corn and wheat stalks. If you take animals out of the equation, something has to be done with that as well.
In the end you can down-vote all you like it doesn’t change the fact our current food production is extremely optimized. You can’t alter it easily without disturbing the balance. You want to reduce animal abuse don’t buy cheap shit. Go to farmers market. But no, people are willing to come and preach here about morals while they happily ignore all the other things they don’t want to make sacrifice on because they are too precious to them, but are happily telling the rest of us which sacrifices we need to make. If you want to get rid of something, get rid of whole “organic” movement. That growing method is extremely unsustainable and unaffordable for most people.
You cannot pay for an animal to be murdered and In the same breath say you against animal abuse.
They aren’t paying for animals to be murdered, they are paying for a product at the Wallymart.
Of course I can, because I know to use a dictionary. Abuse is not the same as murder. You can call me animal murderer, I’d give you that. But not abuser. I don’t beat or molest animals. I don’t maltreat them or starve them to death. They are kept safer than in wild, away from predators and have a life of luxury with constantly abundant food and no fear, until they fulfill a purpose that is meant for them. If anything am sheltering them far better than nature is.
Unfortunately that is simply not true. If you had to take a guess, how long does a chicken live that is born into the animal agriculture industry and what does its life look like? Go watch Dominion ( https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko ) and learn what modern animal agriculture looks like because I promise you it is not a life free of abuse where they are safer than they would be in the wild with plenty of food to eat. If you are paying for animal products then you are not only paying for the animal to be murdered but are also paying for the abuse that it suffered for its entire short life before that point.
Also I’d definitely argue that murder is a form of abuse. Defined as: “treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.” If you wanted to discuss semantics it would be more accurate to say that it is impossible to murder an animal since the most common definition would probably be “the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another”. There is a second more loose definition though that uses the language “kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation”. I would argue that an animal IS a “someone” as they are an individual with their own unique perception of the world. As such I do believe that it is possible to murder an animal. That being said, it is completely irrelevant to the morality of what is happening whether we call it murder or abuse or we come up with all new words to describe what’s happening. No matter what you call it, we are creating unfathomable amounts of completely unnecessary suffering by forcefully breeding (aka raping) animals and forcing them to live unimaginably awful lives which are ended very very prematurely because money and yummy.
it’s definitely abuse, as you are harming something for your own pleasure.
Exactly. People who believe this are believing a fairy tale.
You cannot be vaccinated and believe you are not harming animals.
I think you misunderstand what veganism is. It’s not absolute perfection. It’s reducing harm to animals as much as possible.
No vegan believes they are “not harming animals”. But it’d be hard to argue that they’re harming just as many as omnivores.
At a high level, I have no control over your actions, you have no control over mine. We can argue until we’re blue in the face, but when someone walks away after that argument, they’re free to do as they please.
Physically, you don’t need to eat meat. I’d recommend a good dietician if you want to go vegetarian or vegan, at least until you figure enough out that you can maintain the intake of all your required vitamins and nutrients as you transition. There are more than a few of them that are typically provided by meat products for most people’s eating habits, you’ll want advice on how to suppliment that without relying on pills. Suppliment pills can be helpful, but you probably don’t want to have to take them all the time.
Eating meat can certainly be healthy too, speaking mainly for ones nutritional needs. The nutrients in meat are, in some cases, fairly rare in plants, so it can vastly simplify the job of meeting your nutritional needs.
For vegans, on a social and societal level, I agree with the concepts surrounding factory farming and the unethical treatment of the animals that become meat. No argument from me. However, thinking that any meat consumption is tantamount to murder, is not a view I share. Animals, and their meat, are eaten by other animals (including humans - separate from farming… I’m talking about actual hunting here). In nature, there’s no hesitation about this, no remorse, and no known sorrow from the animals who “lost someone” to being food. Sadness over the passing of an individual is almost (but not entirely) a human phenomenon. Same with morals and ethics… To name a few. Ethically, I don’t personally have a problem with animals dying for food. I do however have a problem with the abuse and maltreatment of animals that will become food. While alive, animals should be given some measure of dignity and respect. They should not be forced into living their lives in small cages and jammed together with hundreds of their kin in a confined space the way factory farming often does.
Eating meat does not and should not imply that a person is complicit nor agrees with the concept of factory farms or anything they do. Some people do not have the time, effort, money or focus to dedicate to finding alternatives. You don’t know their life and you should not judge based on their eating habits alone. It’s presumptive and arrogant to think that people have the bandwidth to even grok the concept of changing their entire lifestyle because of factory farms. In the same manner, vegans and vegetarians should not be negatively judged for their decisions either.
The only points of contention I have in the whole debate is that eating meat, in and of itself, whether you bought it off a shelf or obtained it through hunting, does not make one a murderer; and, while it’s fine to share ideas, demanding that others change their ways because you have an opinion, is unacceptable. If someone is curious and willing to listen, sure, chat all you want. However, telling them that their choices are wrong and that they must do something differently, isn’t a practice I can support.
At the end of the day, as most people learned from the lion king, there’s a circle of life. Things will die so other things can live. Plants will absorb the minerals and nutrients from the rotting corpses of so-called “higher” life forms, and those “higher” life forms will eat the plants to live. Those plant eaters will be eaten by other animals, who will eventually die and become fertilizer for the plants. The cycle continues. Eating animals is something that animals do all the time, and it’s not condemned. News flash, humans are also animals. We have the ability to eat and gain strength from meat. You have the free choice to either partake in that activity or not, but make no mistake, that’s your personal choice.
IMO, we should all eat more vegetables. Meats have become so prevalent that there’s basically meat included in every meal of the day. That’s a bit much. Eat a salad. Everyone should reduce their meat intake, at the very least. If you want to go all the way to being vegetarian or vegan, go for it. It’s your choice, your life, your body, and you’re free to use it, and/or abuse it, in whatever way you wish.
For me, the ethical problems of factory farms are definitely an issue. Personally, I’d rather see a regulatory solution for the treatment of animals, since it would improve the life of all of those animals (at least for the duration they’re alive), and improve their situation when they are slaughtered, so it is more humane. After they have been slaughtered, my level of care about how they’re treated, pretty much disappears. As long as the resultant product is safe and not harmful, I couldn’t care less. I’m only concerned with their life from birth to death. After that, meh. Regulatory changes would be simple and more effective than trying to change the hearts and minds of everyone in an effort to have the pubic at large, stop eating meat; bluntly, trying to convince an entire society to do anything for it’s own good, is pretty much impossible. I’m not sure what the “annoying vegans” (not all vegans, just the ones who get in people’s faces about it), are trying to prove. They won’t convince everyone, it’s basically impossible. It’s like they’ve taken on this impossible task and it’s not going well, and they’re steaming mad about it… Bro, you did this to yourself. I believe the only way to put an end to the animal abuse in factory farms, is to regulate it. I don’t know what that regulation looks like, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I have any ties to nor interest in becoming a politician/government decision making person. I know change is needed and I have no ability to enact that change, but I would vote for anyone who did.
I don’t consider death, in and if itself to be inhumane. I consider torture to be inhumane. I consider forced imprisonment in a small space to be inhumane. I even consider suffering to death, it be inhumane. Euthanizing something, can absolutely be humane. I don’t believe that factory farms are being humane by my standards.
I don’t think that asking them to be humane to their flock is too much to ask. Our food deserves it. They’re giving their life for your ongoing existence and enjoyment, the least we can and should do, is ensure they’re not spending that life in pain.
you don’t need to eat meat.
you don’t know what anyone else needs.
Thoughtful comment, I really liked it. Thank you for sharing
This needs to be in a BestOfLemmy post.
I highly recommend you check out a book called “A Bold Return to Giving a Damn”. It’s about a cattle rancher who turned his ranch into a form of regenerate agriculture. One of his main point is that the current meat industry provides cheap meat that is subsidized by the environment. His ranch is called White Oak Pastures. Fascinating book and definitely changed the way I look at meat consumption. I still eat meat but my extended family raises a cow every year so I think its a little but better than the industrial food system currently at work.
vegans have noble intentions but they are fighting the wrong battle: the root evil is not meat consumption per se but capitalism and the resource exploitation that it implies
deleted by creator
Be careful OP. There are angry meateaters among us using Lemmy.
I would hope that most people who have seen much of anything about industrial ranching would have a hard time not showing a bit of empathy.
Some descriptions of hell aren’t as upsetting as seeing how those animals are kept and handled.
I only ever see meat eaters argue about what the body needs or how our teeth are meant for meat. There is no way to argue that the modern meat industry isn’t horrific, I think some carnists that react strongly to vegans unconsciously know this and react with anger because of guilt and shame.
They’re gonna lash out again.
among us
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⣤⣤⣤⣤⣤⣶⣦⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣿⡿⠛⠉⠙⠛⠛⠛⠛⠻⢿⣿⣷⣤⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣼⣿⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⠈⢻⣿⣿⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⣿⡏⠀⠀⠀⣠⣶⣾⣿⣿⣿⠿⠿⠿⢿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠁⠀⠀⢰⣿⣿⣯⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⢿⣷⡄⠀ ⠀⠀⣀⣤⣴⣶⣶⣿⡟⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣷⠀ ⠀⢰⣿⡟⠋⠉⣹⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠘⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣦⣤⣤⣤⣶⣶⣶⣶⣿⣿⣿⠀ ⠀⢸⣿⡇⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠹⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠃⠀ ⠀⣸⣿⡇⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠻⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠿⠛⢻⣿⡇⠀⠀ ⠀⣿⣿⠁⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣧⠀⠀ ⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⠀⠀ ⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⠀⠀ ⠀⢿⣿⡆⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⡇⠀⠀ ⠀⠸⣿⣧⡀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠃⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣷⣶⣶⣶⣶⠶⠀⢠⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⣽⣿⡏⠁⠀⠀⢸⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⢹⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⣸⣿⠇⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣿⣦⣄⣀⣠⣴⣿⣿⠁⠀⠈⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠏⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠻⠿⠿⠿⠿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
Omg is that a susSy baka? im so scared they’re amogus!!
Sus
Wow, really brought out the online vegan brigade on this one.
Hell, vegans are just religious zealots without a deity.
Unexpectedly good meme
Vegans can be annoying, but at the end of the day they’re right about a lot of things. It’s just that the ethics of consuming meat and animal products can be a delicate conversation, and requires a pretty big change in how one views not only themselves but life as a whole. A lot of online vegans like to approach it the with tact of a sledgehammer.
Trust me, irl vegans are usually way more chill in my experience.
It’s just that the ethics of consuming meat and animal products can be a delicate conversation, and requires a pretty big change in how one views not only themselves but life as a whole
I was raised vegetarian by a vegan. I’m now a hunter and eat meat almost daily.
From my experience, switching diets doesn’t require turning your world view upside down. Maybe if your reason for going vegan is some life-altering epiphany? But I think most people already understand at this point, they just don’t want to change. I’m not speaking here with judgment.
I’m vegan at home, though I’ll sometimes make some exceptions for dairy when I’m out. Explaining that to anyone who wants to share a meal with me ranges anywhere from a brief heads up to a full on ethics debate initiated by the other person. It’s weirdly common how often non-vegans feel challenged just by the existence of a vegan in their presence. Like I’m not trying to have a conversation about it. This is a very practical thing for me and that’s mostly how I see this “lifestyle choice.” It made sense for me to stop eating meat, so I did. No internal struggles or questions about my place in the world. Just logistics about how to navigate our meat-centric food culture. So yeah, I think the biggest challenge isn’t overcoming some personal hurdles, but simply pushback from people and other external factors that make it harder to change.
it’s tiring to have to use tact around people in order to placate their sensibilities.
That’s what being a part of society entails.
Yeah, well it’s still unfun!
Yet people don’t do that to vegans. Vegans are often ridiculed for being vegan.
the reality is that they will hang on to one thing they dislike and focus on that. because the alternative is the realise that they could be a better person. so easier to blame the horrible vegan.
Online vegan here. Just wanted to add that after a couple of years of the same jokes and arguments and demeaning comments that were forced upon you because you had to explain why you don’t want to eat what everyone else around you eats, you kinda lose your tact a bit.
Never went to somebody with a burger in hand and called him a murderer. Been called an emasculated pussy and wittle little rabbit for eating a salad so many times. Same people then complain about annoying vegans. It’s a bit infuriating.
I went vegetarian for a bit. I was never vocal about it. I just skipped ordering meat from the menu and asked for veggie options from the waiter. I was surprised the amount of people that gave me shit for it. It was like, “you know animals eat other animals right?” I used to respond with: “yes, but I want to do it for ecological reasons because factory farming is destroying our environment”. I remember getting short with people after a short period of time and started saying: “I graduated from university, what do you think?”
Most of my vegan friends are so nice. Their partners eat meat and they let them live.
Very rarely will you get a “vegan gainz” type person that laughs at people that die or have cancer because they’ve eaten meat. Those type of people are completely repulsive but they’re rarely the people I’ve encountered that are vegans.
I can understand that. Constantly needing to justify your existence or preferences is exhausting, especially when there’s a stereotype that people are using to project.
Choosing what you eat is your own thing and right to do. But when that decision becomes what defines people they become very annoying. We live in a world of abundance which we created by exploiting people, animals and nature as a whole. So when someone comes without asking and calls you a murderer and animal abused for something they themselves did until recently and still rely on modern medicine and whole set of other animal products it’s annoying, hypocritical and most importantly dishonest.
It’s really not though, inability to do something perfectly does not invalidate the efforts people make.
Nor have I implied it does. But calling people names just because you do something less than others is dishonest and quite frankly disgusting.
Except we’re talking about a situation where enough people doing one of these things has the possibility of actually ending atrocities like factory farms, as well as possibly vivisection and other animal abuses in science. You’re acting as if vegans only think about diet, when in fact I’ve expressed that everything you’ve brought up is something that vegans do make efforts to improve.
In fact you’ve never moved away from factory farms and have been completely ignoring any facts and just quoting random stuff that suits your narrative. You are not making an argument for your position, you just yelling “lalalalal I can’t hear you #GoWegan”.
No, pretty sure you’re the one whose been making wild assertions with no supporting evidence.
I have nothing against vegans, just do my cooking and I’ll eat anything
Do you want me to put on a maid outfit too, huh? Lazy bastard.
And you must refer to me as president
Not sure if sarcastic…
Because, like, yeah? Obviously?
Your question marks makes me think that your not sure either.
I am just looking for an excuse to put on a maid outfit.
Thanks for the laugh, you had me in the first half.
Can’t live without some delicious red meat, no if ands or buts. I will(and have) hunt it down myself if I have to.
deleted by creator
If lab-grown meat becomes even half as good (and cheap) as slaughtered meat then I’d make the switch in a heartbeat. Not to mention, imagine being able to try out all sorts of exotic meats guilt-free, or being able to eat raw meat without risk of food-borne illness and parasites? Gimme some of that cruelty-free giant tortoise meat, lemme see what that gluttonous bitch Charles Darwin was on about.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
“Buying meat is unethical because of how the animals are treated” ~ sent from my iPhone made by child slave labor
I’m not saying veganism is bad. What I am saying is that people who think veganism is a moral high ground are wrong. I also think that veganism is a luxury to be even able to follow.
Edit after downvotes into the negative and shitty asshole responses:
Here comes the self-righteous assholes who don’t want to have a discussion and instead throw around blame and shame at me. Congrats. Y’all are the reason people hate vegans which hurts your cause by pushing people away from reducing reliance on meat. Every downvote is proof that self-righteous vegans are assholes.The devil is in the details, but in most cases it’s eating animal products that’s the luxury.
https://www.veganeasy.org/discover/news/oxford-university-researchers-finds-vegan-diets-are-cheaper/
Nice cherry-picked argument there. Notice how the article doesn’t link the study.
Doing my own analysis for myself, this is not the case.
You could have just googled the doctor’s name and found the study yourself. Somehow I doubt ‘your own analysis’ is as unbiased as you think. https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1523119113
I shouldn’t have to look up the study myself if an article is based on it. Also, that study you linked is not the one that the article mentions.
And yeah, the analysis is biased because it’s literally for myself, where I live, and what I need. You think that’s a gotcha?
Well in germany it’s really easy to be vegan. Lots of affordable options
Congrats on that luxury being available to you
Funny thing is that Meat is waaay more expensive to produce then any Vegan alternative but why is Meat not seen as a luxury?
Because that’s a short-sighted perspective. Production costs are not the same as consumer costs.
Yea meat is being heavily subsidised to bring the cost down, but in reality you pay with your tax money. Also plant based stuff is differently taxed (at least here in germany). Cow milk has a 7% tax and soy milk 19%. There is so much groing wrong because of lobbying by the meat companies.
Meat is just an extra costly step to produce the food we consume. Instead you could just skip that part and it would be less expensive.
There’s so many other equally or even more important issues with how taxes are used, or misused, than just the meat industry.
Yes add animal cruelty to on top of that + health issues with meat consumption. Many good reasons to not eat meat and support that terrible buisiness.
Sorry, how is it a luxury? Vegetables, grains, and legumes are far cheaper and healthier sources of calories and nutrition than meat, despite the government subsidies. This perception that you should eat McDonalds and rotisserie chicken every day if you don’t have money to buy groceries is so strange to me.
This perception that you should eat McDonalds and rotisserie chicken every day if you don’t have money to buy groceries is so strange to me.
That’s because no one here brought that up and you’re using a straw man argument.
So in what way is it a luxury?
You can be opposed to unethical treatment of animals and child slave labor. If someone tells me they are against slave labor, my response isn’t ““buying products made by slaves is unethical” ~said by someone who eats factory farmed meat”. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
I don’t think people go vegan because they want a moral high ground, at least I know I didn’t. People do it because they genuinely believe it’s the right choice to make. And yes, having that choice is a luxury not afforded to everyone, but vegans are no more entitled than the people around them who also have the luxury of being able to choose not to support animal agriculture, but do so anyway.
You say people don’t want to have a discussion while at the same time calling people who might actually engage in a discussion “self-righteous assholes”. This leads me to believe you may not actually be looking for a good faith conversation.
The last part of my message was an edit after being downvoted to the negatives and other peoples very toxic responses.
Which response(s) came across as very toxic? I see six responses to your parent comment and they all seem quite civil.
It’s pretty ethical to grow and hunt your own food. Hunting even benefits the eco-system and animals haunted since the natural predators that used to keep deer, turkey, elk, and other game animals population in check are no longer prevalent.
Personally, I can agree in some circumstances. However, not everyone agrees with that and that is also fine.
Just don’t try to shove your morals down my throat.
However, not everyone agrees with that and that is also fine
It’s even finer because in those situations those people would just die
Wut. Are you saying you’re happy that people who disagree with killing animals themselves “would just die”?
Are you saying
Has anything truthful ever come after those words?
I was asking for clarification. Why are you implying I was trying to be dishonest?
Lots of people don’t agree, but we have data to support the benefits, and the legislation to ensure it is enforced. Yes, in an ideal world we’d all be vegans, and nature would balance itself. Maybe some day that will be the world we have, but it is not the world we have now.
Also if we’re to speak of cruelty and environment shit why don’t vegans speak of the animals farmers need to kill in order to protect crops? Or the fuel spent by importing vegetables and fruits?
Now I’m not saying that meat is better since tastes are subjective and animals do get treated badly and raised in bad conditions but some of them live in titanium bubbles
Many vegans speak extensively about these topics, especially since they’re used as a favorite “gotcha” by animal-ag supporters.
Yes but I think those vegans don’t go wrecking havoc because their cause is “good”
Who’s wrecking havoc?
Vegan protesters: spilling milk in stores, sending death threats to farmers and chefs, disrupting restaurant and more
Lol. The vast majority of vegans don’t do anything like that, including the guy in the video linked, but the ones who do are the only ones you hear about.
If certain activists discredit veganism in your mind, would you say that climate activists who do similar things also discredit environmentalism as a whole?
Yeah? If someone suddenly showed up and they took your phone smashed it saying that Chinese kids made it and we need to protect them and so on, would it help their case or make you wanna hear none of their shit and create a need for a new phone? If part of your community acts like that it’ll drag the whole community down and put a bad light over you
Correct.
Become vegetarian
As Mike says, no half measures ;)
But in seriousness, going some/most of the way there is better than not at all. And most people transition over time rather over night too anyway. Every small step helps when it comes to the environment, personal health and ethics in my opinion.
Mike has clearly never had some rasmalai.
And then become vegan.
Step one. Stop taking medicine, as lots of pills use lactose and all the vaccines are tested using horseshoe crab blood and are tested on animals.
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—
One step ahead of you.
Edit: You really think this is a gotcha, eh? Given that you’ve posted the same thing at least six times?
No I don’t. Am merely pointing out everyone depends on it to a degree and that doesn’t give people right to call them names. This is why people roll their eyes whenever someone blurts out they are a vegan. Do whatever you want to do, but you are no better than the rest. Perhaps you care more or are trying more to be less dependent on animal products, but you are still dependent.
Yeah? But the key is to become less dependant like you stated, which is what veganism aims to do. It is impossible at this current time to be independnat of them, but each passing year we do become less so.
Which am completely fine with. Am just annoyed when someone comes and calls me a murderer or animal abuser when they themselves depend on the very same thing.
Nobody did that, yet you chose to comment that annoying shit take anyway.
You are as irritating as you claim those vegans are.
practicable
There’s the rub. One mans practicable is another mans impossible. So it just becomes people judging other people’s choices without any real understanding of their circumstances.
It’s literally baked into the quote that that’s not the idea. I really don’t see how you’ve arrived at that conclusion and I suspect you’re just trying to finagle a counterpoint.
Alright if you want to go that way, there was a legend of a Buddhist monk who let a hungry tiger eat him, if you really want to go all out just lay on the ground and let the earth take you.
Huh. Didn’t know lots of pills have lactose in them. I’d think I would have noticed, seeing as I’m lactose intolerant. But I guess they’re in such small amounts per pill to not notice?
I mean, there exists many options between the extremes of veganism and rampant factory farming. This isn’t a dichotomy; we can have meat consumption without the need for industrialized meat production.
We may have to eat less meat though, I will concede.
