E-bikes could get faster, more powerful and not require pedaling, in a move announced today by UKGOV. Cycling organizations are opposed to the plans.
Based on the other things the UK gov has been saying, I assume this is some ploy to reduce the prevalence of e bikes.
I don’t mind the idea, I’m in the US but I’ve got a 250w ebike w/the EU speed limit* just because it was cheaper… plus faster is less efficient and human power means I get less blob-like so it’s a win-win.
Then again, it does have a twist throttle and I use this most often to slowly approach** or accelerate out of a stop sign (esp. crossing a road). Sometimes I’ve used it so I didn’t need to pedal in the sun (I cannot really sweat). I’ve needed to use it twice when my chain fell off and I didn’t have gloves with me. But generally my legs are contributing something… I wouldn’t mind some sort of different throttle programming, but really I don’t think my bike is one that is an issue at all w/throttle and throttle programming definitely wouldn’t cover all of these scenarios.
Another thing is if I come to a stop and have forgotten to change gears, throttle is a save there too thanks to it not using the chain for its gearing. Or it can just mean less gear-changing in general.
*= 25 km/h (~15mph). I have not changed it, plus my bike (with me riding it at least) is not even quickly hitting this speed, most of the time I was going ~10mph. To hit motor cutoff speed on flat ground I’d probably need to be be in highest gear+PAS and be really putting a lot of effort in (including leaning down for less drag, I normally ride in a relaxed position).
**= cadence sensor does not allow it w/o brake usage
…isn’t that just a motorcycle or scooter?
Yes but speed limited to and in bike form. I guess yeah you can argue it’s not a bike anymore but who cares? To me the important thing is that it should be allowed in bike lanes if it conforms to existing ebike standards. People with disabilities might not be able to pedal and I don’t see why they should be prohibited from using a bike lane just because their bike is powered entirely by electricity instead of just mostly.
I think the distinction will come down to the frame and how you sit on it
Bureaucracy described!
As an American immigrant among the English, I have never seen a deliverer pedal their bike in my LIFE. We’re not even talking about changing what happens, we’re talking about reducing the burden on the police.
They’re too busy putting the boot in on people who don’t like genocide, so I get it.
Kind of stupid idea. There is a place and need for light weight transport that is assisted bicycle. Our law classifies these (and electric scooters) as light electric vehicles and has special set of rules for them. Things like when driving on pedestrian paths they can’t move faster than 5km/h. On roads maximum is 25km/h but they have to wear reflective west. Kids must wear helmets, etc. For the most part sensible requirements.
That said I am of the opinion everyone should take a test to participate in traffic, bicycles included. For bikes there aren’t many rules they need to know anyway. They can skip almost all of the signs except those for the right of way. So it would be easy test but a necessary one. And simply bar kids on bicycles in traffic lanes and that’s it. Safest for everyone.
It’s hard to balance on a bike at 5km/h so that rule alone rules out bicycles from riding on a footpath, which is fine IMO
Not impossible but I think the idea is to make bicycles less annoying to pedestrians.
Just so you know, ebikes sold in Europe don’t have a hand throttle, because laws.
But also, most ebike manufacturers use generic motor controllers.
Is there a small panel somewhere on your ebike? Take it off and see if there’s a small aluminium box in there with dozens of wires coming out of it.
Chances are, one of those sets of wires ends in an unused black plug, with a red, a black, and a green wire going to it.
That’s the throttle plug.
Any old generic throttle from Crapazon will fit it. You might have to swap the wire colours.
Enjoy :)
It’s trivial to make most adjustments to these bikes. Disabling speed limiters etc.
It’s still illegal however
I’m not suggesting someone should actually, like, go ahead and do it because it’s so easy, Mr GoodyTwoShoes
Idk how it is over there but here police have a very clear understand of what you can and can’t do with an ebike and you will probably be stopped.
Bear in mind, Europeans don’t live in a fascist police state and the police are pretty unlikely to shoot you for having a throttle on your bike 🙄
Most of our cops don’t know the laws, so if they shoot you it’s just for fun.
People who do this kind of stuff are the reason the rest of us can’t have nice things. Same as with Surrons fucking up bike trails and then getting all ebikes banned from there.
Personally I’m of the mind that people should be free to tinker with their things, and regulations should be specific enough to appropriately respond the performance to whatever the thing has
It is not wrong to modify the bike that is your property to change or customize its appearance or functionality. It’s wrong to be inconsiderate, or a dick. I think the distinction is important
They should be free to do that up to a point. A moped needs a licence to drive and it needs to be registered and insured and you need to wear a motorbike helmet while riding one and you’re not allowed to ride it on the sidewalks or on forest trails. If your ebike is effectively a moped then the same rules should apply.
Where I live a pedal-assist ebike with 250 watt motor that’s limited to 25kph is considered a bicycle and you’re allowed to ride it where ever you’re allowed to ride a bicycle aswell. However if it goes faster than that or is a more powerful then I think it’s only reasonable that there’s a different set of regulations for a bike like that. I’m not allowed to drive a car on the sidewalk either even if I go slow so I don’t see how electric motorbike is that much different.
If I remember correctly, they are allowed to have a thumb throttle if it’s capped at 6km/hr (which is still very handy for starting, especially on a cargo bike). On a generic Bafang/similar motor controller, that’s a purely software limit that anyone with a programming cable can change.
wait but which wire do I cut to disarm the bomb
I think the lines between ebike, escooter, and emotorcycle are pretty blurred right now.
The primary delineation should be speed. This bike path has an upper limit of 30 mph, this road has a lower limit of 45 mph no matter which 2 or more wheels you’re on. And no wheels allowed on the pedestrian only sidewalk.
The tech and use has changed enough that governments should rethink this entire space, IMHO.
I like it. I’m an ebike rider here in Canada and we have 500w restrictions at 32km/h, honestly, 500w might be fine for average size people but I’m a heavy dude. When my bike is restricted to the legal limit, and I’m on any kind of difficult terrain or incline, the machine struggles. I bought a 750nom/850peak ebike for myself and it is absoltuly nessecary for safe and effectic operation. Limiting the power is just asking for me to take an injury or fail to launch.
I still observe the 32km/h limit and leave my speed limiter on.
Hub motor I assume. My mid-drive 250W e-fatbike climbs near-vertical hills effortlessly.
Yea, I couldn’t find a good step through with mid drive in my price range. I have flexibility problems so it had to be a step through too. But I am very happy with my hub motor.
Restricting the wattage (as opposed to top speed) is dumb. Never mind heavy dudes; consider cargo bikes!
A mid drive might help get more out of 500w
Bit late for that for me but maybe next time.
Same here lol, next time though!
That’s a moped. I suppose they have their space too.
25kph is too slow for road ebikes. I wish they would allow these to at least be 32kph/20mph.
What’s even the point of road e-bikes? They are supposed to be sport devices, where the whole point is to train and exercise.
I am an avid road biker, crunch hundreds of kms per months/week on roads with my road bike and really there is no point in this kind of e-bikes.
I am talking of sport bikes, not leisure or going-to-work type of bikes.
Instead, MTBs make much more sense as e-MTBs due to the kind of terrains they go trough.
The person I know is aging but is an avid cyclist. Sadly they are no longer able bodied to ride a normal bike and keep up with the majority of the other riders they ride with. Having that assistance allows him to get out on the bike. Without it he would no longer be riding a bike.
My dad also got an ebike MTB because riding a normal bike just isn’t an option anymore. He’s approaching 77.
I live in a hilly area and often see older people out on their bikes in the summer. They all use ebikes.
Agreed those are good reasons, but I really hope those bikes do not get common.
Then get a speed pedelec. Those go up to 45kph, but you are required to wear a helmet, have insurance and have a moped license.
As someone who bikes in Copenhagen i love that they are not faster. E bikes are allowing people to get to speeds that they cannot handle because it is a lot easier. So they go faster than their abilities and becomes very dangerous on the overfilled bike lanes
I’m talking about a typical enthusiast road cyclist rather than the average Joe out on their bike or commuting to work on bike paths. I whole heartedly agree that on bike paths and inner city commuting that we don’t need people zipping around busy streets.
The people I know, who ride socially but on road bikes, have modified their ebike to allow them to go faster as on flat roads they simply cannot keep up with the rest of the group. Obviously it’s completely the opposite way round as soon as there is elevation involved.
If people wanted to go faster even if the motor was limited, couldn’t they just pedal faster anyways? 20mph on a regular bicycle is pretty achievable even by a novice.
Yeah, but those people can -usually- handle the speed because they are pushing for it themselves. It gives them more respect for the speed. It’s getting too fast without realising how fast that becomes dangerous. And i see that a lot
I’ve definitely seen people do dumb shit on regular bicycles plenty of times, but yeah, I suppose it is more frequent on ebikes. Where I live, scooters seem to be the most frequent offenders of doing dumb shit though. I figure it’s because they’re more popular among younger people who just do dumb shit because they’re young (I know I did, kind of amazed I didn’t die).
Yes you can. On an ebike the engine just stops providing assistance above 25kph. In the EU that is. It’s more in north America
No, it isn’t, because it’s a bicycle. If you want to go faster, get an electric motorcycle, and get your license which teaches you how to handle those speeds.
25kph is slow for an accoustic bike.
E-moped then? E-motorcycle perhaps?
E scooters are completely different:
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they have significantly less range for the same battery size.
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can’t make it up some hills depending on the torque of the motor on the scooter
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less comfortable to ride a long distance
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easier to store and transport, especially in a small car or on the bus or train (depending on the size of the scooter)
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more difficult to park/lock up outside in public spaces, but can sometimes be taken with you when a bicycle would have to be locked up outside
The people that upvoted you clearly did not click either of those links. I also thought the commenter sounded like an old fart who was amazed at electric “kick” scooters. But then I clicked the link before writing a whole comment about it.
I didn’t click the link either, but yeah I’ve never heard of mopeds referred to as “e-scooters” before, but I guess that could be a regional thing…
You’ve never heard a Moped be called a Scooter before? Dude put “scooters” in quotes. He was trying to convey it in a brief comment. You wrote out a huge, condescending reply instead of clicking the links. I think that’s on you mate.
The OP is talking about electric mopeds, not electric “kick” scooters. The fact that scooter means at least 5 different things is very confusing but there you go.
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We’re basically talking about a low power motorcycle/scooter with optional pedals at that point.
I’ve seen those. They’re 2-stroke and gas powered
You can get electric scooters. Some country in Asia banned use of gas ones because of the pollution and noise when electric ones became feasible.
Most of them are 4-stroke now, but thankfully they are gradually fucking off in general and being replaced with electric scooters.
Electric moped are a thing. Check out the Onyx RCR
I think the question becomes, should you need to be licensed to operate and should you have to register/insure what essentially become ultralight motorcycles?
If you could get a $1-2k “motorcycle” that was an electric bike, having about a 45 mph top speed, a 20 mile range, and a detachable battery that you could take inside with you to charge, it would be such an efficient, practical method of transportation.
At that speed, you want something beefier than a bike frame and parts. A US class 3 ebike is limited to 27mph on a 750W motor. That’s stressing the limit of bike parts, even with ebike tires and chains.
A typical human can put down around 250W into a bike, and the best athletes around 400W. 750W plus what you put into it is outside the original intent of bike parts.
If you want to go 45mph, everything needs to go up a notch in design. That increases both weight and cost. A $1-2k range is only possible with the cheapest crap scooter parts. Get closer to $4k and things look better.
People should have some kind of licensing for this. Always should have for the ICE versions, and probably for class 3 ebikes, too. Maybe just the motorcycle license, maybe something specific, but it shouldn’t be wide open.
I agree with most of what you’ve said.
However, I have a bottom of the barrel, 250w hub motor ebike. With pedal assist, it gets me cruising at 20mph no problem. I got it from Walmart for $400. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to production and manufacturing but it stands to reason that at 5x the price, they could make something that would safely go a little over twice the speed.
The problem with ebikes is that they manufacture all these huge, fat-tire, inefficient pieces of garbage and then price them at $3k like some luxury item.
I’m hoping cheap, fast ebikes are coming soon.
I agree on the licensing part, but you don’t need to get that much beefier for 45mph that you spend USD$4k. $1-2k is good ebike territory, I’d put these are $2-3k for something reasonably priced. This is coming from someone that has a 110cc road-going motorbike. Yes, motorbike, not scooter. The frame is about twice as thick as a mountain bikes. The things that really needs the most beefing up are the fork suspension and headstem.
Honestly the whole bloody problem with electric motorbikes and scooters (of the sitting variety) is that they’re way overpriced for terrible range (<100km). Something in the $2-3k with that sort range that can go ~75kph would be the sweet spot for consumers I think. Especially if you’re paying the costs to get your motorcycle endorsement on top. Which is pretty pricey where I am in Australia.
Bike gears are just not meant for this kind of torque. Cassettes get worn way faster at 750W + rider output. The derailleur transmission is lightweight and cheap, but it has limits and needs to be abandoned if you go much higher.
Who was talking about using bike gears? But also, you should abandon derailleurs at any speed unless you’re racing the tour de france. The only advantage they have over internal hub gears is weight. And hub gears can be easily made strong enough to handle that sort of torque.
But you wouldn’t necessarily need gears At All for something throttle driven. Electric motors have more than enough range of RPM on a single speed gearing system to get to 45mph. E-bikes only have gears for the human component, not the motor.
Wait, the bike I was hoping for already almost exists. Its called the goat v2. Its just a little over $2k with some promo codes and realistically, it’s a couple mph shy of 45.
I think we’re going to see bikes like this everywhere within 5 years, which is great!
I absolutely agree with this.
At this point making a helmet and insurance mandatory and minimal age is only logical. How many fatbikes will we see if any of the above becomes reality?
Here in the Netherlands fatbikes really started to become a thing after they made helmets mandatory for moped drivers
I really like the US take on this one actually. I’m pro ebike and absolutely love motorcycles, but 45 mph is too fast to not require a licence.
Here we have 3 classes numbered as such. Class 1 is 15 mph pedal assisted, class two is 20 mph pedal assisted, and class 3 is 28 mph and allows a dedicated throttle. Class 3 often has limitations for certain bike trails, but most class 3 comes have variable modes to limit them to class 1 and 2 speeds. Generally as long as you’re following trail speed limits you really don’t have to worry.
This part varies by state, but in general anything over 28 mph is considered a moped and requires a proper license. As an avid motorcycle rider I feel even 28 might be too fast for non-license, but I also understand keeping up with cars, especially in cities, is way safer so I get why the limit is a bit higher than you’d expect.
Yeah it varies entirely by state, the last time I checked in North Carolina there’s a legal definition for “moped” which has a maximum speed fo 30mph, an engine of no more than 50ccs displacement, no external shifter controls, etc. And these are legal for road use without registration or a motorcycle license. I don’t know how or if they’ve adopted laws about electric assist bicycles, but I imagine if it can go more than 30mph under its own power it would require a license plate and a motorcycle endorsement to operate.
Class 1 is 15 mph pedal assisted, class two is 20 mph pedal assisted
This is incorrect. Class 1 is pedal-assisted only, up to 20mph. Class 2 ebikes have a throttle that can power the bikes up to 20 mph without pedaling.
I rarely go over 20 mph on mine (class 3). I try and minimize the pedal assist but it allows me to push myself because I know if I go to far (I’m old and out of shape), I can use the throttle to get home. The only time I was close to that was on a 25 mile ride with my son last summer when it it was in the upper 90’s and humid. It was a circle route and the return was into a stiff breeze. The last mile or so was a slog and I used the throttle a lot just to get back.
It doesn’t add any cost to include a throttle on the ebike.
Regulate speeds, not mechanisms. Moving people to micromobility is a benefit regardless of the form of that micromobility. Speed is the safety concern, not any of this loophole-inducing nonsense.
It’s also extremely useful for changing gears while riding uphill if its a hub motor style one.
Also good for taking off from a stop in traffic. Pedal assist is always laggy
Depends on the sensor type I think. Supposedly torque based sensors are more responsive
Pedal assist is always laggy
On Aliexpress bikes, sure.
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No, no and no. In our country, there’s a loophole in traffic regulation allowing for anything under 25kph on bike paths if it’s electric powered. This resulted in a super dangerous situation for normal cyclists. I commute by normal bike and believe my it’s terrible:
- food delivery guys switched to electric scooters (think Vespa) and clog bike paths. These things are way too heavy in case of a collision with a pedestrian or cyclist.
- the 25kph speed limit is not observed! Either the manufacturers don’t care or the drivers tweak their rides.
- the acceleration is way too sudden. Even a regular E-Bike needs to ramp up to speed. And you see when the driver engages his drivetrain by way of them moving their legs. With a throttle you just have a lump of mass that suddenly jumps forward. Super unpredictable.
So now we basically have way too big, way too heavy and way too quick objects on bike paths endangering everyone else.
There needs to be strict mass limits for vehicles allowed on bicycle paths. There need to be acceleration limits. There need to be mandatory checks for pedal-less ebikes. If a bike from a manufacturer is found that can exceed the speed limit, there need to be existentially threatening fines. Because their products are threatening lives!
Thank you, way more eloquent than my rant.
Still, the issue isn’t the presence of a throttle. It’s the specs of the machine.
The idea that the law should be framed around whether or not the vehicle needs to be peddled is backwards. The relevant machine specs are what the legislation should address. Which is still, primarily, top speed. All incident evidence we have suggests that below ~20mph / 30 kph, even full automobiles see precipitous dropoffs in serious injuries, so that’s the place to start. We see most places really serious about bike networks going reasonably further past that (25 or 20 kph). That’s all reasonable. If you further want to have requirements on acceleration or weight, it’s worth investigating that.
Having the legislation require peddling is just a way to create weird loopholes in the law. It’s pearl-clutching and moral panic. And worse, it creates accessibility issues and can pressure people off the bikeped infrastructure who would’ve used it reasonably and safely back into cars.
The law should narrowly address the actual problem, not some tertiary smell the problem has created. The idea that a bike that has pedals is magically safer than an identical bike with an identical frame, motor, and everything which has a throttle is preposterous.
I am totally convinced an ebike with a throttle is safer and easier to use for its rider than one without one at any speed. I don’t think they should be required – because that’s just silly – but I think anyone the claiming opposite, that only peddled, throttle-less vehicles are safe, has fallen off the deep end.
Dutch?
When i visited Amsterdam i saw some pretty dangerous driving in the bike paths. High speed and heavy weight.
Nope, Austria. I can imagine they have the same problem in Amsterdam as we have here in Vienna.
You bring up a key factor here: mass. A traditional bicycle weighing 10kg, going 20kph has far less force/momentum than a 35kg ebike going the same speed, and when using the throttle, the acceleration rate from 0 to 20kph increases dramatically as well.
Currently in the US we have people riding class 3 ebikes (and particularly cargo bikes) that can have base weights of 70 or 80 lbs, plus the weight of the cargo, all going at 28mph with a throttle. That’s too much momentum to be safe around pedestrians and other bicyclists on multi-use trails.
IMO once ebikes start getting up to 750+ watt motors with a base weight of over 65 lbs, they should probably require some kind of licensing to operate, and perhaps insurance as well.
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Ehhhhhh I can’t agree. When you’re pedaling it’s a completely different feel and mentality. It still feels very much like a bicycle and you belong in bike lanes.
No pedaling is a motorbike and you belong on the road.
Only exemption is for physically disabled. I think they could have no pedaling and 30 km/h just so they have access to bike lanes.
Oh, great. This guy ‘feels’ like it’s totally different? Case closed!
🙄
I know what you’re trying to say, but in this case “feel” translates pretty directly you how it handles, and differentiating how they handle isn’t a bad way of categorizing
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