Hersh, Eitan; Royden, Laura (25 June 2022). “Antisemitic Attitudes Across the Ideological Spectrum” Political Research Quarterly.
doi:10.1177/10659129221111081
Memes that come with citations? Now that’s how you shitpost.
Fascist definition: Anyone I disagree with. That’s some solid research conrade.
Are you referring to something specific here or just venting? I certainly don’t call anyone I disagree with a fascist, but there are many people in the present society who advocate for fascist ideas. What else should we call them?
You should host a course titled:
How to identify yourself as a fascist 101
Also, fuck off, fascist.
Also, fuck off, fascist.
Thanks for proving my point.
Yes? Let’s not make this thread too, make your argument and let me reply, this is no irc chat.
No, this is airing dirty Nazi laundry. Say Nazi shit, get called a Nazi.
Horseshoe theory is dumb, but it’s really just an observation of the loudest ideologies on the far left and far right, which both happen to be authoritarian. Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system. And it’s true that real-world instances of both Fascism and Communism have been authoritarian, and so they share some things in common. It isn’t a particularly nuanced or deep understanding, but it is true that authoritarian forms of gov’t are authoritarian. The difference lies in the details. Communists used authoritarianism against capitalists and the nobility, and fascists used it against minorities. Horseshoe theory conflates “authoritarianism” with extreme Left and Right-wing ideologies. This contrasts against anarchism (and by extension the broad anti fascist movement), of course, which is extremely anti-authoritarian (hence why horseshoe theory completely falls apart here).
Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system.
Why is this only necessary at the extremes? I don’t want to accept the current system I live under, but I’m coerced into complying with it through force (police).
I’d argue that: 1) what is extreme changes over time, 2) a system of government being extreme de facto means it will have less support, if it had more support it would cease to be extreme, 3) the less support a system of government hass, the more force will be required to maintain it.
I am also under a system of government that is oppressive and monopolizes violence, but if the government had less popular support, I fully believe it would proportionally ramp up the oppression and violence. In fact, I’d argue that it’s currently happening in the US.
I don’t know that I agree with your definition of extreme. On the one hand, there’s popularity of various ideas, and on the other, there’s how much the idea differs from the way things are currently done. It’s possible for an idea drastically different from the status quo to be popular, but it would still be considered extreme because of how big of a change it would be.
Authoritarianism becomes necessary as you move toward the extremes because you have to coerce some people/classes to accept the system.
Do you consider anarchists and anarchocommunists to be extremists? Or authoritarian?
Extremists? Sure - they are, by definition, as they are outside of normal, status quo political ideologies. Authoritarian? No of course not. Anarchists are anti-authoritarian. I’m only saying that past communist states (namely PRC and USSR) have been authoritarian and fascist states have also been authoritarian.
Obviously modern neoliberal states are also authoritarian, but the classic horseshoe is almost exclusively applied to fascism and communism. Since it is incoherent as a political theory, I’m sure you could apply it similarly to any polar opposite ideologies and come up with something they share in common.
You might want to consider that those who call themselves leftist may not actually be leftist.
For instance, “Nazi” is short for “national socialist”. They are clearly right wing, however, if you pay attention to their actions.
So-called socialist states are generally deeply repressive and that is not left wing. They were better at branding than the Nazis, but for instance the USSR neutered the soviets - the workers’ councils after which the state was named - very soon after taking power. The state owned rhe means of production, not the workers. It was state capitalist. After that workers had to strike just like under any other capitalist regime, and they were brutally repressed by the state.
Under no honest description of socialist does that qualify. So they failed on both the “Soviet” and “Socialist” parts of their name.
Horseshoe theory is just capitalists happily buying into the USSR and other state capitalists’ self mythology about being socialist because it’s good propaganda to scare the workers they rule over into believing that there is no alternative to neoliberalism’s stochastic brutality.
If we understand “Leftism” to be about a relationship to the means of production - namely one in which the workers/plroletarian class owns the means of production - then the USSR certainly was socialist/leftist to a significant degree.
Since leftism is about that relationship to the means of production, that also means that a government can be both Leftist and Authoritarian. We can discuss to what degree an ideal leftist government should be “authoritarian”, but that is less a conversation about the economic aspects of leftist political ideology and more about the political philosophy around personal freedoms, freedom of speech, etc. - none of which are completely cut & dry.
One could easily argue that some degree of “authoritarianism” is necessary to protect greater freedoms at the expense of lesser ones - that could be a coherent pro personal freedom and pro authoritarian argument. One could also argue that the anarchist conception of personal freedom is doomed to fail without an “authoritarian” power hierarchy to protect those freedoms. All I’m saying is the question of to what degree the power of the state should be limited is by no means answered.
Ownership means having power, having control, over the thing you own.
An authoritarian government that maintains control over the means of production, no matter how much they nominally “belong” to the workers, inherently alienates the workers from having power and therefore from ownership. In that sense it is state capitalist.
You cannot have it both ways unless you change the meaning of words like “own”, or “authority”. Your own description of leftism precludes authoritarian methods.
Left and right is just another meaningless tag to attach to people. Its really jerks vs everyone else. You can’t tell a leftist jerk from their right leaning clone. You can take the garbage they spew and substitute a few words depending on the what flavor they call themselves and hear nearly the exact same thing. Then you have the joiners. Who have to belong. Who will pick one side to belong. They by far are the worst of the group since they lack any spine to keep them honest.
How come only white people get to be fascist? That’s not very fair. What about China? Aren’t they fascist AF?
You should have seen Japan…
Ahh yes. The other white meat.
Don’t let them see the other facts… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Africa
Sorry, it’s not from Italy, it’s just sparkling authoritarianism
🤣
Is antifa extreme left?
according to some yes, but according to normal people though, antifa is just people who don’t want nazis around them, which should be everyone?
The fact that there is a “Yes” in the violence box (regardless of target) makes them violent extremists. Besides, from what I’ve seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.
Makes them violent extremists
Only if you believe that any violence is extreme. I would disagree, punching fascists is fairly centrist and enjoys broad support.
what I’ve seen, plenty of antifa folk will use violence and vandalism against people unrelated to the supposed target group.
That is besides the point. You can be against facists and also against Nestle at the same time.
“Centrist” only if you use the sense of a median popular political position, which isn’t really what it means. Self-described centrists are actually conservative and tend to be weirdly* okay with Nazis.
*weird if you don’t understand the link between capital, the state, conservatism and fascism
I do, and where I live being the first to throw a punch towards anyone for almost any reason is generally frowned upon.
The reason that violence is dangerous in this context is that it can allow a violent minority to oppress and subjugate a majority. By removing it from society in general and de-legitimizing its use the influence of these sorts of people can be effectively minimized.
do you think WWII was won without violence mate? If nazis could be reasoned with there wouldn’t be a war in the first place. You can’t turn the other cheek to nazis, it’s just not an option, you either fight back or you die.
That’s a terrible comparison. The same can be applied to any state with an aggressive foreign policy - or violent group intent on assailing a legitimate, elected government.
Political violence instead tends to fuel and enlarge these sorts of radical, violent movements, ultimately worsening the situation even further. The antidote is de-legitimizing their entire strategy by enforcing non-violence on an institutional level, a peaceful transfer of power. This shows the general populace that the most dangerous thing in the room is in fact the violent extremist, who needs to be locked up the moment they break the social contract of non-violence.
“enforcing non-violance” and how do you propose we do that?
Centrists are currently overseeing a genocide right before our eyes and telling us that the fascists would be worse so we just have to suck it up and vote for them.
Centrists are violent extremists
Since it is leaderless some factions of Antifa are extreme left, some are what they say on the tin and are are anti fascist, and some are crypto-fascists who have appropriated the language of antifa as a smoke screen , this last group has most of the ones who go on social media and stir up ship , and bait people, and try to turn peaceful protests into riots to discredit the protestors…
I just want to point out that not all fascists are Nazis. Can I point that out without getting crucified?
I will clarify that if you’re any kind of fascist, you’re a trash person, doubly so for Nazis specifically… But not all fascists are Nazis. Which the OP chart seems to imply.
To drive my point home, I’ll quote Wikipedia: fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Nowhere in there does it say that fascists are anti-Semites, nor white supremacist. Those ideologies are generally attributed to specific fascist ideologies… Eg. Nazis.
Let’s not sugar coat what people are. If they’re Nazi fucks, let’s call them Nazi fucks.
And if they aren’t, don’t call them Nazis. For example I strongly disagree with the term “grammar nazi” that English speaking people sometimes use for people who point out grammatical flaws in comments or articles - that may sensitise people to view the term lightly, not taking it seriously when someone seriously is a nazi. Apart from that it’s a cruel joke towards the people who suffered under the nazi regime or died fighting it.
I agree with this. We need better terms.
Nazis were such a heinous and specific evil that we probably shouldn’t do anything that could lighten that term. At all.
The part that makes me sad is that they appropriated the symbol of the swastika, and made it into a visage of hate and oppression. It’s a religious symbol for luck.
I don’t think that reputation is changing anytime soon.
The Nazis destroyed a lot, and corrupted so many things by association.
Guys, regarding white ethnonationalism: the key word here is egregious.
Sure, you got fascists who are not ethnonationalists. Or who are ethnonationalists towards another “race”, such as the Hindutva ideology. However, white ethnonationalists are an egregious example. They exemplify the issue with fascism amazingly well, because they’re the worst of the worst, and they’re extra common.
This very special take on Fascism brought to you by Zionists-R-Us.
(Remember, boys and girls, people from the Jewish ethnicity couldn’t possibly be Fascists).
Colour scheme: blue on white
Antifa has not been taking much action against the violence directed at Jewish students at colleges around the world , despite the fact that many of these Jewish students are not Zionists, they are just identifiable as Jewish and so are conflated into being Zionists.
I’ve usually heard horseshoe theory referring to tankies/authoritarian communists, not anti fascists.
Guess where the antifaschistische aktion has it roots…
In 1919, Benito Mussolini united various groups in the then Kingdom of Italy to form the Fasci di combattimento. During the Biennio rosso (1919-1921), the Black Shirts used targeted terror against striking industrial workers, the Partito Socialista Italiano (PSI) and all opposition. As a result, local and regional anti-fascist groups as well as vigilante groups emerged from 1920 onwards, encompassing the entire political spectrum, from Catholics and liberals to socialists and anarchists.
Emphasis by me
In 1921, Mussolini transformed his militia movement into the National Fascist Party. The first armed anti-fascist organization came into being in 1921 with the Arditi del Popolo. It was open to anarchists, communists, social democrats, Christians and bourgeois republicans. However, the leadership of the PSI and the Partito Comunista Italiano (PCI) rejected the League. It remained limited to a few thousand members and a few cities.[3] This was the first organization with an explicitly anti-fascist self-image. Its supporters referred to themselves as antifascisti[4].
Emphasis by me
Arditi del Popolo
It grouped revolutionary trade-unionists, socialists, communists, anarchists, republicans, anti-capitalists, as well as some former military officers
Composed of Italian anarchists, socialists, and communists, the Arditi del Popolo were not supported by leftist parties (neither by the Italian Socialist Party, PSI, nor by the Communist Party of Italy, PCd’I).
Furthermore, the PCd’I ordered its members to quit the organization because of the presence of non-communists in its ranks.[8] The PCd’I organized by themselves some militant groups (the Squadre comuniste d’azione), but their actions were relatively minor and the party kept a non-violent, legalist strategy.
The Antifaschistische Aktion grew in the soil of the SPD and KPD in Nazi Germany (which themselves where not autoritarians or tankies at the time), but it’s roots are older, decidedly anti-authoritarian and open to the entire political spectrum that wanted to fight fascism.
Edit: Antifascism is represented by a red and a black flag. How you could ever think is has anything to do with the authoritarian left when it’s roots are so extremely anarchist is beyond me.
My dad swears up and down that antifa are the real nazis. I think this would be a response to that type of thing.
Ask him if he opposes the antifa fascists. When he says yes, call him antifa
My favorite thing in the world is calling him antifa :)
Is your dad in this thread? I think I just replied to him.
Isn’t like most of the problem fascists who aren’t explicitly calling for genocide? I thought that the antifa position didn’t support free speech for them too
Look, can’t we just find some common ground and meet in the middle?
…hmm.
Alternatively
…double hmm.
Don’t forget the speech one. Both said no on that one.
The rest I’m on board with.
Thing is left right isn’t much of a line, no matter what shape it is.
The right is a point, they’ll get behind a populist and go to jail for them.
The left is a scattered mess of disagreeing elements who hate each other almost as much as they hate the far right.
And of course they both hate the dreaded “liberals”.
It’s amazing that the whole of humanity, or at the very least the United States citizens haven’t realized that we’re being played. We’re being told we need to fit into this specific group or that specific group causing division. When citizens aren’t able to unite, they are more easily controllable. Identity politics is chit and so are the fans who perpetuate division.
The only time, two opposing sides agreed… FJB
Everybody hates gormless morons that don’t believe in nothing at all.
Someone hasn’t listened to anti fa and modern communists talk about jews
I mostly only hear good things about Jews from the left. I hear a lot of negative thoughts on Israel (which does not represent jews, and are just a state) and zionism. Most jews are no Israeli and/or Zionist. Many Israeli jews aren’t in favor of the current government, their actions, or zionism either. There is a clear distinction between the three, and only being against one is anti-semetic.
Yeah…heard this one before. Anyone says anything unpleasant is suddenly right wing.
No. Just when someone says something against Israel, Zionism, or in favor of Palestine it isn’t anti-semetic.
stay on topic
The topic of your strawman? Yeah, sure… that seems reasonable.
What do they say? Because I am a lifelong antifascist and communist and we love Jewish people but shun Zionism, maybe you have conflated the two.
As a Antifascist and AnSynd I am Jewish :3
You deaf? Or just in denial.
So what you’re saying is you can’t answer their question.
Edit: check their post history, they’re obviously a troll
No. You all just have what brains you have, so far in fantasy land, common sense sounds like trolling. Like it’s 2024 and yall think communism is an option. FFS, you huys talk about pattern recogntion and trustin the sciencem, try readin a fucking book and not dieregarding the repeated results.
Yeah, so all you have is shit you read. Brilliant.
-John McMurray, “Totally not a Troll Guys”
I can’t tell - do I need to read a book or live on the coast? Message unclear.
Try both, it’ll definitely expand your horizons
Jews or Israel? They aren’t the same and saying they are is unironically antisemitic.
Did I stutter? If I meant Israel, I would have said so. Why do people have this much trouble with direct statements? I generaly suspect they want multiple paragraphs to dissect because they can’t find what they need in concise statements.
I think this anti fascist stuff is retarded but I don’t think that’s true. Care to explain?
Lived on the coast a long time, listened to people talk.
“I heard a racist guy once, pretty sure he was antifa!”
Just cause you’ve never left your fucking basement, doesn’t mean others haven’t hung out with the hippies, burners and crazies in Portland, Vancouver, Seattle and LA for years
You know what’s worse than being a basement dweller? It’s being unaware that you’re vulnerable to propaganda, being unaware that you’re an emotional creature and your brain doesn’t try to make sense, it tries to connect stories and ideas to explain why you’re feeling what you feel.
In other words, you can be a smart person and easily influenced into positions that either are not your own, or not even connected to reality just because you had a feeling once validated by someone saying the right thing at the right time and you don’t question the story that you start piecing together in your head.
So the question you would need to always ask yourself, is what is it that you feel that you need to cling to such cynical and hateful stereotypes to the extent of even invalidating or denying the testimony of others who are directly contradicting your obviously exaggerated tales of “listening to hippies talk about jews.”
You are describing a personal experience and because it validates some feeling you already had, it feels like a real evaluation of the broader world. Other people who do this include: scientologists, flat-earthers, modern nazis, cult members and generally people who just go through life angry and miserable and blaming that misery on others. Don’t be a pawn to others or your own brain, have some control over your narratives.
Stfu moron.
Wow, what a rational, level-headed response. You sure showed them.
Everyone here thinks you’re the reasonable one. We all take you more seriously now.
Just cause you’ve never left your fucking basement,
So you freely and openly make up assumptions and lies about people based on whether or not they agree with you, and you expect me to believe you totally met a bunch of hippies at Portland, Vancouver, Seattle and LA. For years. You hang out with hippies all the time. Can’t leave your house without bumping into a hippie that introduces themselves to you with “I’m Antifa and I hate Jews!”
Well, it’s pretty plain you’ve never been to Portland.
Never claimed I had. Good thing all the racist Antifa love in Portland. Keeps them all contained.
I live in Portland, you’re full of shit.
You’ve got to be trolling. No one, I mean NO ONE is this stupid.
i guess you don;t own a mirror
I did, but your mom stole it after I fucked her.
Don’t be bitter. Be better!
Well SHIT son, you lived on the COAST??
Well that shit changes everything, I had no idea you overheard things out on the coast, I mean I was here ready to talk about crime stats and systemic inequality and the USA’s history with civil rights, but here is a person who heard some stuff out on the coast! I guess I should reconsider everything and stop supporting efforts to squash nazis in an industrial nazi-squashing machine.
Yeah, so all you have is shit you read. Brilliant.
Could YOU care to explain? Do you have some issue with antifascism?
The concept is cool but the youth of America is just doing it as a fad. Obviously I don’t like fascism but I dislike so called anti fascists way more lol
People against Nazis are worse than Nazis, is literally what you are saying.
Not what I said but thanks for making my point. You and anyone else anti fascist adjacent are so whack 🤣
Okay let me be more accurate, sorry. You said you dislike people that call themselves antifascist more than people who murder Jewish people and queers.
Sure bud 🤣🤣🤣
Remember kids, it’s not hypocrisy to be intolerant of the intolerant. They have broken the social compact and are therefore no longer protected by it.
I was going to joke about some kind of social powder case, but it turns out that compact and contact are synonymous here.
I was going to joke about some kind of social vision correction device that goes on your eyeball, but then I realized you meant contract. ;)
Instructions unclear, stabbed myself in the eye with the things from Prey
