- cross-posted to:
- evs@feddit.uk
- cross-posted to:
- evs@feddit.uk
Alt text:
An idling gas engine may be annoyingly loud, but that’s the price you pay for having WAY less torque available at a standstill.
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I’ll get an electric when I can get a used one for around $5k and not have to worry about the battery going out and costing $20k.
I’d love to have one, but I don’t see it happening any time soon unfortunately.
We have a food delivery company in town, and they use electric cars. I got to talk to the owners a few years back, and they were paying around that price. So I suspect it’s getting close to fitting your needs. How far do you drive each day, on average?
90+ miles
It all depends on where you live, of course, and how far you are willing to look for that car. And you might want to poke around on Edmunds.com, if only to satisfy your curiosity. Like others have said, and I would agree, it’s getting close to your criteria - 90+ miles, $6K for a used. I suspect that there will be a whole lot more used EVs on the market over the next 5 years. All the ‘cool kids’ want to buy the latest, bleeding edge tech. And watching and waiting to get that tech seems like a prudent and viable option. The other thing the guy with the delivery biz said was that he was getting his cars from CA, because he could find them used, cheap, relatively good condition. Anyway, best to ya. I’m out.
My car has a basically brand-new battery (6 months old) and is currently estimated at 6k or so
The time is here already my guy
That’s still double the car price. No thanks.
I’ll get an electric when I can get a used one for around $5k and not have to worry about the battery going out and costing $20k.
The lie detector determined that… Was a lie!
I’m not paying a potential $6k more after buying a used car.
While my sentence could be worded more clearly, that’s a pretty bad reading of what I said.
My car is valued by KBB at ~6k in it’s current state.
That current state includes a battery that was replaced under warranty 6 months ago, and is thus basically a brand-new battery, 9 years left on its warranty and everything.
So if something goes wrong with the battery and it isn’t directly your fault: it gets replaced for free. The only 6k being spent is the original 6k on the car as a whole
I gotcha, I was talking battery prices so I read it as battery prices. What do you have? A Leaf?
What kind?
I saw a few used VW E Golf listings in my area for $6K. Battery health was at 85%. We’re not as far as you might think.
Advertised at 85%. Also 83 miles at 100% ain’t going to work for me.
It’s not quite there today, but in the next few years, you’re going to see cheaper price and longer range on the used market.
I’m big into motorcycles and all the electric motorcycles are like 100 lbs more and go through tires like twice a year compared to my gas powered motorcycle changing tires once everyother year and can go fraction of the distance. Idk I want to think electric is the future but with these limits I’m still not too interested. If hydrogen ever comes to motorcycles like Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki want, I’ll definitely get one of those but I can’t recommend any electric motorcycles right now and before you say anything I would recommend a Surron if you check your welds before you buy those are great commuters but probably not a motorcycle.
Yeah, a general “electric vs. gas” comparison which elides the two big disadvantages of electric in familiar applications (which aren’t to be found in the motor) seems slightly subpar for xkcd. It’s valid from a certain narrow engineering perspective but not too helpful if what you’re thinking about is motorcycles.
If fossil fuels were so easy to give up we’d have done it by now.
all the electric motorcycles are like 100 lbs more and go through tires like once a year
compared to my gas powered motorcycle changing tires twice a year
…so, you’re changing tires less on an electric motorcycle? I don’t see the issue
Sorry I edited the post poorly 😞
I’m genuinely confused - why are you going through tires so quickly?
Sorry for not being clear, I change tires on my gas powered commuter motorcycle about once every two years. Electric motorcycles seem to go through tires much faster it was explained to me that the bikes are heavier and most tires aren’t designed for electric motorcycles.
that just sounds like too much throttle because you’re not familiar with the extra torque from take off.
nothing to do with a little extra weight.
my last two bikes were over 1L, with a curb weight of something like 280kg, maybe. 45kg extra in batteries is like a child or a big dog. it’s not much.
not enough to double your wear rate.
The torque off the start is so much higher in EVs vs. ICE. I’m not sure from u/blindbunny 's post if they’ve ridden an EV motorcyle. I’m pretty sure they haven’t owned one. They sound like an ICE shill. My bicycle’s torque off the start is pretty low, and dependent on this old school “neuro-musculo-skeletal” system. It’s kinda jankety, but I’m too cheap to upgrade.
I wish I was a shill I’d probably have more money to buy more motorcycles. I’ve rode a Surron bee? and a Stark VARG and I kinda like how quite they are especially dual sporting. But it takes almost half a day to charge the Stark VARG and the longest I’ve rode a Surron was about ~20 miles before it needed to charge.
Many motorcycles (not bicycles, those are irrelevant to the comparison) already have more torque off the line than the available traction can handle, so that benefit from electric motors is less critical. The wear is a concern because motorcycles are already more sensitive to tire wear than cars, and simply switching to a harder compound to account for the extra weight has other ramifications that are far less severe in electric cars.
Fair. I’ve been comparing ICE vs EV cars wrt tire wear. And some folks, depending on driving style, find that the tires wear faster on EVs. Slow off the line should moderate that.
Long term we’ll get lighter batteries.
That’s what people keep telling me
And over time power density in batteries has increased. So far.
Graphically: https://www.epectec.com/images/battery-comparison-energy-density.jpg
From ArsTechnica: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years-away-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/
And from Cleantechnica as of January 2024: https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/30/the-rise-of-batteries-in-6-charts-not-too-many-numbers/
People just won’t stop telling you this, it seems. ;-)
Well they never provided evidence like you did. Thanks friend.
You betcha BB! Have a great day!
Actually, piston engines are really bad a torque. It’s why they need a flywheel or a large amount of pistons.
Real answer: power density. Pound for pound, gas still contains more energy than our best batteries. The weight of energy storage is still a massive deal for anything that cannot be tethered to a grid or be in close practical proximity for frequent recharging, from rockets, planes and cars (sometimes) to chainsaws and lawnmowers (sometimes).
Density is relative to efficiency, and electric wins
What i cannot understand is people trying to defend something that is clearly worse,
The argument that I’ve heard is that electric cars aren’t actually cleaner because of the pollution caused by mining the minerals required for the batteries.
I’m sorry but I’m too lazy to dig up links to back up my claim. But you are correct in that electric vehicles pollute far more being produced than combustion engine cars, however the electric vehicles gain that back over it’s lifetime if your charge from mostly non-fossil sources. The figures I have read says that over the lifetime of a car, electrics output 70% less CO2 than combustion cars, and that includes the production of each of the cars.
Googling tells me that:
- Electric cars have 77% efficiency
- Gas cars have 30% efficiency
- Electric car batteries have 270 Wh/kg (converts to 0.97 MJ/kg)
- Gasoline has 46 MJ/kg
So the math here says electric gives you (0.97 * 77%) 0.75 MJ/kg output and gas gives you (46 * 30%) 13.8 MJ/kg output. Plus, as someone else said, spent gasoline no longer weighs you down.
I like the idea of electric, and I want to see it replace gas as soon as possible, but fair is fair.
How do you think about hydrogen cars? They have better fuel density, and hydrogen is renewable.
Technically empty batteries weigh less than charged batteries.
Not that the difference is significant enough to tip the scale though.
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I dunno, I’ve never looked into them. How do they stack up against electric motors in everything else, and is the hydrogen expensive to get?
The comment you’re replying to is deleted, but from your comment I assume it was about hydrogen as fuel?
Hydrogen fueled vehicles are generally electric, using a hydrogen fuel cell, rather than being internal combustion using a hydrogen engine. Compared to battery electric, hydrogen has the benefit of fast refueling and higher energy density, but has the drawback of difficult storage and lack of refuelling infrastructure.
As a vehicle fuel, I think hydrogen does have a future, but only in commercial/industrial, particularly shipping. Semis already have predictable routes and stops/depots, and building hydrogen refuelling stations into those depots wouldn’t be too complicated.
Hydrogen passenger vehicles, with gas stations being replaced with hydrogen stations, will never happen.
And let’s not forget that fueling your car requires a tank, a decently sized pump and 2 minutes of your time. A quick charge will hopefully charge your battery to 80% in 30 minutes, while giving you less km and running 300kW of power through hefty cables and big transformers, consuming the amount of energy that a family house consumes in a few days.
(And yes, battery manufacturing and disposal consume enormous amount of resources)
Electric and gas have different situations in which they shine. Gas/diesel engines are just a bunch of steel and some control chips, optimized in more thana century of technological development if we couls develop carbon neutral fuel, electric cars would not be needed. Unfortunately, it woulf be difficult to do at scale of current fuel consumption. More (electric, battery-less) public transport, less road goods transportation, more nuclear, electric for vehicles that move 100% of the time (delivery and logistic vehicles) and carbon-free fuel for other kinds of vehicles (personal transportation) is a good balance, in my personal, ignorant, armchair opinion.
Thing is that pound of gas is gone, that pound of battery is still there and ready for recharge.
A dead battery is far worse than an empty jerry can, atleast the jerry can is light. Hell there are even some real nice collapsible ones and thats not even accounting for fuel bladders. Electric is useful but it is also rather rigid as well.
A pound of dead battery doesn’t help me when I’m camping 10km from the nearest access to the power grid. (There are actually powerlines not even a kilometre from my favourite campsite, but those are going to be measured in kV, and so aren’t really useful to me.)
Now, if I had enough solar panels in a mobile setup, probably folding out of a trailer, I could make it work, but solar panels are expensive.
But solar panel costs are falling way faster than battery costs.
Sure, but even then there are plenty of cases where a solar panel doesn’t make much sense either. If you’re cutting down a tree in the woods, would you rather grab your gas-powered chainsaw out of your truck and cut down the tree, or grab your solar-powered chainsaw out of your truck, spend minutes setting up solar panels to pick up the small amount of sunlight which makes it to the forest floor, and then cut down the tree?
The point is there will always be a market for ICEs until there are batteries with competitive energy density to gasoline. You don’t see solar- or battery-powered trains or construction/mining equipment because these things need huge amounts of energy to work, energy which can be easily stored in a fairly small fuel tank (which can be quickly topped off when necessary).
Absolutely, just like there’s some things a horse can do that a car just can’t.
I don’t plan on buying a horse or needing to do those things, and I don’t think the vast majority do either.
The end result is that there will still be ICEs in niche applications, but those who know how to operate them and the supply chains that currently make them cheap and dominant will slowly die off.
Do we ignore fuel distribution costs? How much fuel is required to distribute fuel to the stations? Shipping oil from high-conflict areas?
Electric is stipl very much problematic, with the coal burning. But at least it has a lot of headroom to improve, and can be produced locally.
Oh, and my fucking lungs mate.
Gas engines have decent range. Gas engines are cheaper (as the electric engine prices are artificially inflated, just look at Chinese prices), with gas engines you can listen to the sound of the engine to diagnose problems before they occur, batteries don’t degrade (you still have car batteries, but when they degrade, you can still drive a car for as long as with the new battery. You can refuel it in a couple of seconds. Anyone can make one sided arguments. There isn’t a best thing for everything.
Only thing stopping me having one is cost.
For me it’s cost and having a place to charge since I rent.
A 2 year old Polestar 2 with 12,000 miles just cost my buddy slightly less than $25k. You can’t even get an Accord with that age and mileage that cheap these days! Hertz dumped a bunch of them on the market recently, they were too much fun to be a profitable rental so they’re absurdly cheap right now
The cost, the fact that I don’t have a parking space at my apartment, and the fact that insurance is expensive.
Parking space i have. The expense is in the truck i want at 90k or more and the hookup of the home charger, which i can do myself but the code inspection might differ
I don’t have a parking space at my apartment
A way to charge it at home is also a major issue for anybody who lives in an apartment.
Not really. The cities across the world are introducing public chargers in lamp posts and at the kerb. While it is kind of an issue today, it won’t be tomorrow.
Hopefully it won’t be, but charging an electric car is still not a standard thing for apartment buildings to offer tenants. So, for the moment, that’s a major reason for renters to not take the plunge.
My apartment block in London has underground parking with allocated chargers. There are multiple lamp post chargers over here and other types of chargers. So, for the moment it’s already fine.
Will go down in the next years.
Sadly, battery companies are quite greedy.
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But remember, electric motors also require next to no maintenance and can last for many years of runtime. Pros and cons.
Uh, maintenance is one thing where ICE wins (until very recently, thanks fucktards in car industry). Cars have been generally very easy to work on, with anyone with a toolbox being able to do most their repairs in a shed
This isn’t a function of the engine though right? Electric engines are inherently simpler and should therefore be easier to maintain (putting aside company fuckery)
High voltage is scary as fuck, but also the fact that absolutely everything from doors to gas pedal and chairs are controlled by a computer you need specialized proprietary equipment to investigate.
This is an issue with new ice cars too to be honest
EVs have a High voltage disconnect. I repaired my EV(inverter) with normal hand tools in my garage. I did have to buy a license and tool for flashing the firmware, but this is a problem in nearly every new vehicle, gas or electric.
That’s true. But since now it’s all messed up shit that you can’t fix yourself they’re on fairly equal line there.
That’s a user-hostile feature, not a property of electric engines. An electric car has far simpler mechanical parts, and the circuitry isn’t very complicated either. It could be made incredibly easy to repair, modify, and upgrade, mostly at home even, if they designed them that way
And no gearing, so no complex moving part assemblies…
Unfortunately, brushless motors are also trivial to waterproof.
It’s true. But a v-twin motorcycle like a Ducati or Moto Guzzi ignites your balls like no electric motor can.
He is not wrong, but he is not adressing the actual criticism of electric vehicles, so it is kind of pointless.
I feel like this is directed towards ICE vs EV cars. If that’s the case, it’s sort of frustrating.
EVs have some very real drawbacks. Even if those drawbacks are solvable problems, they are still problems right now. Pushing this narrative that EVs are universally better or that the biggest hurdle to adoption is irrational consumer sentiment will just make people feel gaslit. It’ll also make people more hesitant to adopt later on, because they’ll be skeptical of positive reviews that are honest.
What interests me is the terror threshold. People are just so much more, including me, afraid of electric motors vs ICE per kw.
Gas engine makes good noises. Checkmate.
I don’t see how making noise is good. I live in a street that doesn’t get much traffic, but even one car is loud enough to be bothering.
I don’t want to pause my music and conversations just because someone decided that vroom vroom sounds were more important than me hearing literally anything else.
Even more that noise pollution is definitely a thing, and affect both mental health and physical one.
Vehicles making noise actually is good, for pedestrians’ sake, but yeah ICE vehicles make far more than they need to. Some (? many? I’m not sure how standard it is) electric vehicles make a sort of beeping sound for that reason.
If you’re in an area where pedestrians may be crossing the road, traffic should be slow enough to use permeable brick pavers, which increase road noise, help with rainwater drainage, and add a little green to the road if find right.
Well that sounds cool; what about those of us who live in conservative hellscapes? I’m pretty sure ‘road maintenance’ is a sin here
I dunno, maybe take their conservative advice and violently overthrow your government?
Real talk, you’ll have a hell of a time arguing for the upgrades, but even so, I only suggest switching to bricks when the road needs to be resurfaced anyway. The road works well enough as-is, this is just an improvement.
Oh, the road needs resurfacing, most of them here do. Decades of conservative government will do that
When you’ve inevitably barricaded yourself in city hall, just remember: we never met, this conversation didn’t happen. Revan? Never heard of 'em.
The majority of sound for cars are not the motor but the wheels compressing air, after I think 50kph, the sound of an ev or a ic is basically the same.
Well, in a neighborhood, cars won’t always be driving 50 km/h. And the engine will be especially loud, when they need to accelerate after a turn or whatever.
Either way, I do hear the difference when an electric car goes by.
It’s incredible how certain people are conditioned to think the sound of a gas motor and shifting because your puny motor is out of optimal torque and rpm range are manly.
Yeah, I guess all those professional female race car drivers are doing it to feel “manly”
There you go pointlessly gendering again!
Never said anything about it being manly, but it can sound good.
I’m a car guy and far from manly. I drive a loud annoying stick shift because it’s fun and life is too short to be bored while driving.
Life is too short to have to fucking drive everywhere.
Yeh, but unless I uproot my life and move to a different country, I’m stuck doing it, so I can either bitch and moan about how much I hate it, or have the best time I can doing it 🤷🏾♂️
For sure, I used to drive stick when I drove, but I also argued for town planning that would make driving optional. Personal choices to deal with the reality you’re given, public policy activism for the reality you want.
“Good” = “manly” to you? Wow. Sexist.
Vroom vroom is fun.
Shifting is fun.
Fun is good.
Yeah, but does it make Oscar Winner Hans Zimmer kind of noises? https://www.bmw.com/en/magazine/innovation/hans-zimmer-individual-drive-sounds-as-identity-for-electric-vehicles.html
The ioniq 5 N has that covered, evidently: https://youtu.be/DSIguemKIbQ?si=Do2diTJm8-_Hb9Ro
Or playing cards in the wheels
Lol i would definitely buy that. And i don’t own a car…but if i would
Think of the most annoying sound you know. Whether it’s country music, rap, lawnmower before 8am on sat, etc that is your “good noises” sound like.
Think of the nicest sound you know. A well-tuned instrument performing a delicate melody, a passionate singer performing their heart out, a cacophony of songbirds. That’s what my good noises sound like when done right.
Obviously nobody wants to hear a fart can Honda Civic at 4am, but a fantastically engineered Italian V10 has its own melody that can’t really be replicated otherwise. These examples will be missed, and the survivors will be sought after like a vintage violin.
Between the fart can and the Lambo, which are you more likely to hear?
So total fucking silence? I swear to God it’s like the call to stroke each other off for you guys.
Huh?
There is a huge difference between a finely tuned V8 with an appropriate muffler versus a gas lawnmower, but to each there own.
Great username btw
Mr. Monkey subjectively your finely tuned v8 sounds like a 400lb basement dwelling gorilla someone has fed laxatives and recorded from the bottom of a well used coachella porta potty.
In today’s edition of lemmy: poetry.
I dunno, I’m “team electric is objectively better in every way” but I gotta agree, a fancy tuned racecar engine sounds like angry beast and that’s pretty sexy.
The jolt of max acceleration of an electric motor in complete silence is also extremely sexy, though.
Lol ok I get it you’re all Car-o-sexuals. It’s cool but can you guys just keep it to your bedrooms and rest stops?
I don’t care much about cars overall but I do like angry beasts…
You just gonna sit there and yuck the mainstream yum like your opinions are better than everyone else’s?
When accelerating my Leaf makes a “woooooooooooOOOOOOOOP” noise I’ve seen described as the “UFO sound”
Tbh I like it a lot more than the vroom of even my motorcycle cuz it’s funny
I do love the whine of the drive units when going full throttle on EVs, it reminds me how much current is surging through those wires
Someone has to build quite a few more power stations though. Assuming you’re talking about swapping a large fraction of the car fleet to EV, not just a few here and there. That’s a substantial increase in total electricity demand. Enough to radically impact the load on the grid.
And if you end up burning natual gas / coal to meet the marginal increase in demand - as would seem fairly likely - then much of the thermal conversion losses you’re saving in the higehr efficieny motor just get shifted to the furnace in the power station and transmission/distribution system; so that can erode some of the efficiency benefits.
I guess you could require for every new EV that they also install roftop solar PV and basically buy a spare battery of near same capacity as the car. that might push the up front and periodic replacement cost a bit though - quite nice for the running costs i guess.
Another good alternative is to try to convince people to get together and share their electric motors in things callled trains and do as many trips in those as possible - that’s not too popular with most people unless the road congestion is really bad. Something to do with sharing being communism i think,
And if you end up burning natual gas / coal to meet the marginal increase in demand - as would seem fairly likely - then much of the thermal conversion losses you’re saving in the higehr efficieny motor just get shifted to the furnace in the power station and transmission/distribution system; so that can erode some of the efficiency benefits.
- liquid fuels still have to get from the ground -> refinery -> distribution -> gas station -> vehicle so there is transmission cost and loss there
- “we can’t immediately solve all of the problems so let’s not do it” is a pretty bad take. Incremental progress is better than waiting for perfect which basically means never doing it.
Another good alternative is to try to convince people to get together and share their electric motors in things callled trains and do as many trips in those as possible - that’s not too popular with most people unless the road congestion is really bad. Something to do with sharing being communism i think,
I 100% agree everywhere it’s practical. Still, people are going to have to get to train stations somehow. Multi-modal transit could somewhat cover that, but some people would still practically have to drive. Convincing those people to only drive to the nearest station and not all the way to their destination is another challenge to solve.
On the other other hand, gas car makers have regulators by the ballsack. So we’ve got that going for us which is nice
Well maybe in your 3-rd world they do.
Thats not very accurate, ICE motors aren’t quite out dated just yet. Electric has a long way to go with the storage and refuel cycle
