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I would love to own one, but the investment is too great right now. All I want is something repairable that will drive, have cool air, and play music over Bluetooth.
My non EV is still perfectly serviceable and I don’t like all the superfluous electronic touchscreen bullshit they’re putting in modern vehicles so I’m going to keep driving it until the wheels fall off.
Same. With my driving needs I get fuel about every 2 weeks so it’s not a big burden. And I go on several long road trips each year and charging stations are not something I need to deal with.
Yup, I’m looking at used EVs to replace my commuter (50mpg, so no hurry), and they come with a bunch of smart crap, so I’m looking at ways to block any potential phoning home before I buy the car.
It’s dumb. Just give me an EV with 150-200 miles range with no smart crap for $20k and I’ll buy it.
Yes. Preferably an option in the form of a small single cab pickup truck with a full size bed.
Yeah, I would probably buy that. I currently use my minivan for must “truck” things, but neither my wife or I like driving it, and we can’t just get a load of mulch or whatever.
So yeah, something like the old Ford ranger would be awesome.
I don’t know what telematics the Leaf had, but you’re describing what Nissan tried to do with that
Neither do I, and that’s concerning. Here’s their privacy policy:
Connected Vehicle Data
If you have a connected vehicle, your vehicle may be equipped with NissanConnect Services, which electronically transmits data generated by your vehicle. This information could include data collected in the context of a trial period or demonstration mode. Through these services, we may obtain vehicle and driving information, such as:
- Vehicle operation – including Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), Precise Geolocation and navigation information, speed and distance information, driving behavior, EV battery information (including use management, charging history and performance), electrical system functions, diagnostic trouble codes, maintenance conditions, software version information, and similar data
- Vehicle usage – your use of the vehicle’s functions and some corresponding services, websites and smartphone applications
- Vehicle status – information about door locks, open doors, engine status, etc.
- Vehicle safety – data about certain accidents involving the vehicle (for example, the direction from which the vehicle was hit, and which air bags have deployed)
I don’t know if NissanConnect is optional (looks like it is?), or if it’s “optional,” as in you need to accept to access core car features, like setting battery charge limits, redeeming a warranty, or accessing diagnostics. But I know the capability exists and I’d really like to have guarantees, as in, can I block Nissan from remotely accessing my vehicle? If not, can I remove the module without impacting other functions of the car?
But it’s really hard (at least in my few minutes of searching) to figure out what privacy concerns there are and what options I have to deal with it.
It’s an industry wide problem for sure. Whatever politician takes that up will get huge votes.
My EV is likely one of the worst offenders l, but they’re all offenders
When I looked into similar for my 1996 Pontiac, it was already a concern, and it’s gotten much worse
I looked into it a bit, and it looks like Chevy’s OnStar should be easy to remove (just a circuit board behind the dash). It’s ridiculous that I need to go through this though, I should be able to just turn it off and it would be off…
I mean, just they’re too expensive. You can buy a normal gas car for around 147 Monero while an EV will set you back 238 Monero.
Yup.
However, there’s a nice niche of used EVs. I can get a 2-5yo Bolt for $13-17k (76-100 XMR) after the $4k credit, which should still have 200+ miles range. I’m seriously considering it, but only for my commuter.
If you only have one car, range and charging network are serious considerations as well if you like to do road trips. My coworker with a brand new Model 3 has avoided certain trips within our state just because of charging network. It’s a serious issue…
I would avoid used Bolts, especially because of all the issues those have had with going up in flames.
Hopefully they’ve fixed those issues in the newest models…
From what I can tell, it only really impacts 2017 and 2019 Bolts, and most (all?) of the problematic ones have been recalled. Certainly ask for proof when buying though.
I’m just going to get a different year instead.
They expanded the initial recall. It affects models from 2017 to 2022. If you read the linked article I previously provided, then you missed the key point that vehicles were still bursting into flames even after the recall.
Expanded recall: https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/09/gm-asking-chevy-bolt-ev-owners-to-park-50-feet-away-from-other-vehicles/
GM stopped replacing the batteries of the newer models and instead offered a software solution that would monitor the batteries for any issues and allow the vehicle to charge beyond the 80% limit that they had set because of these issues. https://electrek.co/2023/06/14/bolt-battery-recall-diagnostics/
But it’s worth noting that this software update has failed to prevent some fires, so the problem isn’t really “fixed” even with this: https://electrek.co/2021/07/08/chevy-bolt-ev-catches-on-fire-after-receiving-both-of-gm-software-fixes/
Ah, interesting. Thanks for the clarification. There’s been a lot of white-washing by people arguing that the problem wasn’t as bad as it was (it’s still a small percentage of vehicles), and I was considering getting a 2020 to avoid the issues in the earlier models.
That said, I may still get one. From the last link:
Briglin didn’t always run the battery low before recharging, but said that “at least 50% of charges” he plugged in below 20%. This is a similar pattern to the last fire on May 1 and something that seems to trigger the runaway thermal events.
I will rarely be below 50% charge, much less 20%. My commute is 25 miles each way, 2x/week, so if I assume 50% range in winter, I’ll still need <50% battery capacity. The rest of the driving would be around-town, so maybe 10-15 miles/day. So I could set a cap of 80% and charge whenever it gets <40% and probably be totally fine.
But I also plan to park in a garage with flammable stuff nearby (bare drywall, dry leaves, cardboard boxes, etc), so maybe I won’t even take that small risk. Idk, I’ll need to read more about it. I could park outside if needed though, I have a brick house with external outlets that I could use, it’s just kind of inconvenient.
76 to 100 is not a bad price range, actually. Not at all.
Yup. Basic new EVs should be in that price range though, this is for used EVs with a gov’t incentive.
Used EVs have come down a lot this year, at least in the US, so check your local area if you’re interested in a commuter.
My car cost 10k€, the equivalent EV is 20k€. Why don’t I buy more EVs? That’s a mystery, let’s call McKinsey to understand why.
Also let’s double the price of more affordable foreign cars to increase the amount of mystery. Sometimes I wonder if governments do this to make fun of us because it’s so stupid.
Those “more affordable foreign cars” are only priced that low because the Chinese government is subsidizing them so much, which is only temporary and lasts just as long as it takes to put their competitors out of business.
This is a race to the bottom just like states giving trillion dollar corporations billions in tax breaks as an incentive to move to their state. At the end of the day, it just harms everyone and should be avoided, which is why the US and EU are putting tariffs on Chinese EVs. They’re still free to sell them at the real cost and actually compete with everyone else.
There’s also the issue of very little (if any) used EVs on the market, and in an affordable range. Most people are looking for a reliable used car for around $1000-$2000 US, and the cheapest EV I have seen is around $7500. And there’s always the question of what condition the batteries are in – if you had to replace all the batteries in a used EV then you easily doubled the cost of it. Fortunately it seems like Tesla is the only manufacturer asinine enough to seal their batteries, other manufactures allow replacement of individual cells which will really help in the used market.
$1000-$2000 cars are the $500 beaters from 10+ years ago. I wouldn’t say most people are looking in this price range and they’re usually on their last leg and the cheapest option for a car. There are cellphones that cost more than this now.
Agreed.
I can buy a $1k car, carefully, and have a “beater” that works fine. Most people can’t. They need something in a bit better condition.
Though the greater point - battery replacement would be $5k-$10k on most cars, no thanks - that’s equivalent to replacing both the engine and transmission on a gas vehicle, at “fuck the customer” stealership prices.
My gas vehicles always go 300k miles, before needing either an engine or trans, many longer. Engines today are damn robust, and have been since the 90’s.
My maintenance over the years is trivial - about $150/year on fluid changes (that with an AWD vehicle with a unique setup). Occasionally something breaks, but that stuff you’d have on any vehicle (tie rod ends, latches, hood release cabke/switch, etc).
There’s a lot of BS out there about all this.
If I were expecting to buy a car for $1-2k, I’d expect it to be on its last legs, even for ICE. Unless you’re comfortable fixing it yourself, any significant repair is already not worth it
Would be nice if they made ‘dumb’ EVs. Like the kind where even the windows are manual old school roll up. I don’t need to walk into a spaceship to drive to get groceries. But all they’re selling are luxury spaceships. For all the good Tesla did to rebrand the market, I feel it also did a lot of harm by creating an incentive for luxury vehicles.
Feel like this is what Fisker should’ve tried. The Ocean had the right hardware but it seemed like they spent too much effort on their infotainment instead of getting the basics right. Then target the sub-$30k market with a car that drives well with decent range and fewer gimmicks that just works.
That’s what the PEAR would’ve been
If my - or any other - complex had charging stations, I’d consider it. The most I’d ever be able to get is a hybrid, if I wasn’t so dirt-ass poor that an old and busted used car was the best that I could afford, because I’m disabled and live in friggin America.
Of course there aren’t many people buying EVs when the only ones available in the US are high end luxury models.
Import a bunch of those cheap Chinese EVs and lots of people will buy them. It won’t hurt the US manufacturers because they don’t produce any budget models.
Import a bunch of those cheap Chinese EVs and lots of people will buy them
Or start building affordable EVs here.
Back in the 70s when Toyota, Datsun, Honda etc started eating the big 3’s lunch on affordable fuel efficient vehicles, they responded with smaller cars of their own.
If they’re not willing to respond to market demand and competition, do they even deserve to stay in business?
Isn’t that what the “free market” they claim to love enforces?
It will hurt US manufacturers, because their budget gasoline cars won’t sell.
And they’ll spend more money fighting the inevitable pivot to EVs than they would if they just pivoted now.
There’s the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt/Spark, Mini Cooper EV, Hyundai Kona/Ioniq 6, Fiat 500e and more. These qualify for subsidies if purchased new plus all the gas savings make them decently affordable or you can always buy them used as most people do.
Most people are going for the midrange models like the Model Y, Model 3, Ioniq 5, etc though since it’s not really ideal to buy the ‘worst’ version of something when making a large purchase. People want more range, space, and features. Even with ICE cars, the subcompacts sell/sold pretty poorly.
These qualify for subsidies if purchased new
They also qualify if purchased used. I’m looking at Bolts priced at $13-17k after the used EV credit. That’s pretty decent, I just need to go test drive a couple and make it happen.
But that only works because I’m replacing a commuter. It would be a non-starter for a family car because the maximum range is our minimum distance between stops at gas stations on road trips. We recently drove >800 miles each way on a road trip to visit family. On gas, that took us 12-13 hours. With an EV, I don’t think we could make it in a day, even if recharges took 20-30 min (and that’s a pretty big if, because the fast charging network isn’t great).
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Because they’re an unsustainable con for saving the auto/oil cartels instead of the planet/humanity?
Instead of going into poverty buying a luxury vehicle, people should be given safe and sustainable infrastructure for LEVs, bikes, pedestrians, and of course public transit.
Cant charge it myself, doesn’t last long enough, dies when it’s too cold
Not to mention, 5 years in after you’ve invested in the power improvements to your house to allow charging, if your battery fails I guess fuck you? $20k to keep rolling lol. Think that’s part of why the used market is showing huge depreciation for EVs. No one wants to spend 20k for a used vehicle with a ticking time bomb 20k repair guaranteed some time in the future.
5 years in
Batteries last far longer than that, to the point where every warranty I’ve seen is 10 years minimum
Were waiting for the next wave of $25k EV since there is no hope that the tariffs on the only country with enough scale to build affordable EV is on a 100% tariff.
I think most people in the market for an EV know that all the manufacturers are changing the charging port to the Tesla NACS standard next year. Range anxiety is still the biggest issue for EV adoption and the supercharger network is the only practical option right now. Tesla hasn’t innovated in a while and current Tesla owners are put off by Musk’s antics. I’d personally wait a year to see what the options are.
Range anxiety is still the biggest issue for EV adoption
Only because people keep making false claims like:
the supercharger network is the only practical option right now
True enough to get the industry in North America to move off vanilla ccs.
At least for me the reasons are
- Lack of interest
- They’re ridiculously Ugly
- Range (I’ve driven 1500 miles in the last 3 weeks)
- Driving Experience is worse (opinion, but still something I stand by)
- Charging
- Price
When I was looking at new cars an EV wasn’t even an option. I wanted a 2 door performance coupe and there isn’t anything even close to that in EVs, let alone on the used market. A 2014 Audi was a better choice in almost every metric beyond gas prices.
Why is charging bad? Id argue it’s a plus. You never have to go to a gas station and every morning you wake up with a full charge for your day.
I don’t have a place to charge at home, nor a way to run a cord from my apartment to a car, so charging becomes a 20-30 minute ordeal instead of a 3 minute tank of gas on my way to work.
That’s fair. Charging infrastructure isn’t ready if you can’t charge at home
I would like to note that if you wanted to drive as far as possible, my car could probably go more than 5000mi in three weeks, though I typically only drive a few hundred a week.
And contrary to a gas car I never have to stop to fuel, I just get home and it charges over night.
Also, what’s wrong with the “driving experience”? It’s not loud enough or something?
I regularly do 400+ mile trips in a day or two ( I’m a photographer ) and need to be able to quickly have range available in non major metro areas.
Since I live in an apartment overnight charging isn’t an option. So I’d still have to go places to charge, which takes significantly longer than stopping for gas.
Driving experince is subjective, but instant power with no real hp/torque curves makes driving really boring. There’s no response from the car, it’s just an On/Off toggle. There’s no real fun to driving it.
Yes the sound is a major part. I’ve got a very nice, valved exhaust system on my new car that adds a ton to how much fun the car is. Hearing the engine, how it responds and how the power is applied is a major part of the fun of driving.
If all you want is a car to get from point A to point B, an EV is completely fine, but as someone who genuinely enjoys cars and driving, EVs are boring and will 100% get you laughed out of most car shows.
You’re worried it’s not loud enough and that people will laugh at you in car shows?? You’re part of the problem.
Nah, I just enjoy cars and (legal) racing.
I’m never going to be interested in an EV. They’re boring, soulless creations that don’t interest me as an enthusiast. They’re great commuter vehicles, but that’s where their use ends. ICE is always going to be preferred by car people.
You know this hobby of yours is directly or indirectly bad for the environment, for society (Middle East tensions, see 9/11), for road safety in case of SUVs that block view of children in front of it, for city planning, and I could go on. But still you’re a “car person”, so none of that matters.
Normal people will have to wait for you and other “car people” to die off for the planet to become a better place. Until then, you’re actively making things worse.
Price, range, infrastructure, in roughly that order of importance when averaged over the population. The article then goes into factors affecting price. (Of course, the article originated with the Financial Times and was only reprinted by Ars, so it makes sense that they would put money first.)
Exactly.
I’m willing to get a commuter EV, but almost everything either has too little range (e.g. older Leafs) or too much range that drives up the cost. I’m not willing to spend $30k+ on something that can really only be a commuter.
EVs don’t have the range to replace our family car since we do road trips, and anything with enough storage is already way more than a reasonable hybrid. Add to that high electricity rates at charging stations, and I’m just not interested.
So, make an affordable EV ($20k, ideally less) with 150-200 miles range, and I’ll buy it. I’m looking at used Bolts, which seem to be ~$15k after the credit for used. There really should be something new in this category though…
That’s what I’ve been saying for the last several years: give me a good commuter EV to replace my more commuter ICE. I still think two car households in single family homes are the ideal market, but i divorced my second car and spent a little more in the EV that can get me places. So far so good with road trips up to 3 hours, but we’ll see this summer with bigger road trips
Yeah, we regularly do 10+ hour road trips (10 to inlaws, 14 to my parents), and I think an EV would push those to 2 days. We take breaks for food every 300-400 miles (4-5 hours), so that’s my range expectation between refuels (we’ll sometimes refuel gas sooner if someone needs to pee). We usually eat in the car, but we could stop for 20-30 min once or twice without impacting much.
We occasionally do 2-3 hour trips (visit cousins, national parks), but it’s usually short trips or very long trips. So a small EV + larger hybrid is our current ideal, but we currently have a small hybrid + larger ICE (looking to replace both).
Current EVs seem to be trying to replace our family car, when they should be replacing my commuter, at least until battery tech improves. The Leaf and Bolt are options, but they’re kinda pricey new (used are looking very attractive).
For me, the last time I was in the market for a replacement vehicle, the 2 biggest factors were availability and price.
The dealers had zero stock (except maybe a rare fully optioned ridiculously priced example of the top of the line model), and I was not in a position to wait 2+ months for a factory order of a car that I couldn’t even test drive.
Because if you live in an apartment your only option for charging is to go to a charging location. You can’t just plug it in overnight.
Which I can see as a big hurdle for a lot of people.
I’ve had an EV for four years now and I’ve relied exclusively on public charging. I won’t say it’s never been without any annoyances but overall it was pretty unproblematic. It can absolutely be done if you want it. Recently they installed chargers at my workplace so now I’m fine and dandy.
Well, in some European countries you could load your car while at work or grocery shopping.
Depending in your commute this could just be enough.
Anyhow: the prices and (country-specific) loading network might be show stopper. Many other things are just habit and/or subjective convenience.
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I’ve never had an apartment with a garage. At minimum I’d have needed a 100 ft extension cord. Probably longer, which means it’d have to be thicker. Which means more expensive.
And I’m not sure about your apartments but at mine (and many others in my area) we can’t have anything hanging out of our windows unless it’s an AC
If I tried an extension cord it’d be a violation of my lease
IDK either, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Last place I was at they didn’t like that I removed their blinds. Not like I tossed them, but theirs sucked ass and I use blackout curtains anyway.
Had the same problem at my apartment, my workaround was putting the blinds back and putting my blackout curtains behind the blinds (because putting them between the blinds and the window made them upset too)
At least my apartment is wired mostly properly. Still have things on breakers that don’t make sense though.
That’s also what I did. It was just stupid and more difficult. Cause it was the blinds to the patio door.
Near all apartments around me have exclusively open-air parking, so this isn’t a viable solution for many. It’s not that the available power is inadequate, it’s non-existent.
Y’all really need to go about asking your landlord to install chargers. There are even options where it charges you for power so he’s not out the cost
They’ll probably ignore the request, but at this point it’s progress to plant the seed, give them the idea, show them interest is building. Your future self will thank you
The condo my ex lives in just had a board meeting about installing chargers. It seemed like a reasonable cost and they haven’t rejected it, so it’s possible
My son’s apartment had chargers.
I live in an apartment and just charge it once a week for 30 min while I do my grocery shopping. Ezpz. I’ve been doing this for 3 years and have never had a problem.
What percentage of people live in apartments?
Surely those people should be taking public transport anyway not buying a car when they live downtown.
You realize not all apartments are located in big cities? Plenty of people live in small towns with no or shitty public transportation.
The better question here is what percentage of likely EV buyers live in apartments. People that would be a potential customer if it weren’t for living in an apartment.
Depends what the point is. If we want to sell EVs for some goal of selling EVs that fine I guess. But it still goes back to the point of you start with the easiest 80% first.
But if we want to improve everyone’s life on this planet and the planet itself. Trying to convince people who shouldn’t own a car to buy an EV is very poor planning. It just so short sighted and consumerist for the sake of consumerism.
An enormous percentage, especially in the current housing market, however…
Many (most?) American cities have wildly inadequate public transit and are prone to sprawl. Many Americans live in apartments, but are a multiple mile walk from their grocery store. If there’s any public transit at all it’s probably an infrequent and unreliable bus line that may not go anywhere near their home to begin with. They live in apartments, but are not anywhere near ‘downtown’.
These are problems that need to be solved, and quickly, but public transit is best grown with a city, which didn’t happen. Inserting a subway after the fact is difficult, expensive, and slow.
The reality of right-now (which is all a renter is likely to be able to consider financially) is that a reliable car is an essential item in most parts of the country.
According to Quota its ~80% of people live in houses.
Classic 80:20 rule. Making excuses for why the most difficult 20% doesn’t work is the wrong way of thinking about it. Most of the result for least effort cones from dealing with the 80%.
You explicitly asked about apartments tho
The title is about why “Americans” aren’t buying EV’s. The excuse of them living in an apartment only applies to ~20% of the population.
That’s not enough to explain why Americans aren’t buying, just why 20% if Americans aren’t.
And like I said you don’t start with the most difficult and you don’t push a solution onto a problem when it isn’t the right solution anyway.
Great, and I’m sure the same applies to public chargers, for those making the excuse that there aren’t any near them.
Yes, we need a lot more public chargers, especially to make charging convenient, but there really are some near most of the population
This was my biggest issue. I live in a townhouse with a carport-ish thingy, but the same issue applies.
Even Level 1 charging is pretty notable, means the vast majority of your daily miles still come from charging at home. This should be achievable if you have an outside plug and an outdoor extension cable.
Though, I suspect from your statement even that isn’t possible due to ownership issues.
I live in a suburb with a lot of one- and two-car garages, but mine is one of the few houses without cars parked in the driveway or on the street. My neighbors on one side converted their garage into a living space during COVID, and the ones on the other use it for storage of things other than cars.
So even with garages you need space in that garage to store your car, which is yet another hurdle.
There’s no reason to need a garage. Mine is full of kids crap so I never park there, and just had the charger installed on the exterior p of my garage where it’s convenient to my car in the driveway. They’re all weatherproof and it’s not like someone is going to spend hours in your driveway charging their car to steal a couple bucks of electricity. Or, at least for Tesla, every car has a unique identifier, so you can configure a white list of allowed vehicles while blocking every phone else.
Americans probably don’t want to buy those Chinese EVs that poorly made and dangerous
I’ve never even driven an EV, they’re comically far out of my price range.
Would you buy one if they were more affordable? Personal experience I agree they are quite a lot of money to get behind the wheel of.
While we have plenty of gas stations to fill up with home charging can be another hurdle that’s costly or impossible depending on the living situation.
I sure would. I’m not one of those people who scoffs at modern cars.
Environmental reasons aside, they tend to have lots of bells and whistles that cars like my 20 year old Toyota doesn’t have. Parking sensors, better climate control, a multimedia system, etc.
I like my car but I’d swap it for an EV without a second thought if it was possible!
All of them are expensive, and almost all of them are ugly as fuck. And the ones that I would consider even decent looking enough to drive are even more expensive than the others.
