*please note i deeply value and respect the vegan movement. i am just critical of how humorously it precipitates in online spaces, particularly this one. :)
It’s true and cringe, you should still go vegan though
No.
Great argument
first time i heard someone using the term carnists it was being used as an insult and i was so confused because “wait why are vegans mad at carnivals now?”
I once had a fling with a vegan girl who referred to me as a “carnie”, intending it to be a jab at me. Having worked in a carnival for several years I found it hilarious she tried to make it an insult.
I get vegancirclejerk posts in my feed and in most cases I am not sure if these posts are serious or just making fun of vegans. Most of the time it looks like troll posts. It’s more like a meat-hate cult.
Its a circlejerk, the whole idea is to troll
Yeah seems like it, either way it’s cringe. On one hand these are sicere and that is just too bad for vegan comunity, on the other hand it’s pure trolling - which is just sad.
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carnism
you are the person this post is about
I think a big problem is that most people who stumble upon posts from Vegancirclejerk are random non-vegans who see it in their feed. Is it even possible to exclude communities from the everything feed on Lemmy?
It’s a shame because VCJ and VFCJ were my favourite communities on Reddit but the vibe on their Lemmy counterpart is not quite there yet. I just want my cruelty free echo chamber back dammit.
Is it even possible to exclude communities from the everything feed on Lemmy?
Yes it is, I have blocked several and never see them unless a sister on another instance gains traction
Hi there!
I believe the old mods of vegancirclejerk were inactive, I was just recently promoted and hoping to change that perception! I agree, WAY too much unironic carnism is posted there.
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It’s more like a meat-hate cult.
Lesbians?
lesbians may love meat on occasion 😁
Girldick tho
If you value veganism either you should be vegan or you’re lazy and want others to fix problems while you hinder them
For every person I see who is actually vegan, there are a dozen people who complain about the existence of vegans, denounce vegans as hypocrites, and insist vegans are doing veganism wrong. And thank the heavens for all those vegan Indians, or the numbers would be so much worse.
Americans simply have no idea how fucking expensive it is to produce meat at the scale they want to eat it. We are one Dust Bowl away from ground beef going to $12/lb and patriotic burger-eaters lighting the suburbs on fire in protest.
I can’t handle not wanting to kill myself, let alone a giant change in diet. What’s this, another way in which my existence is detrimental to others? Add it to the fucking pile, it’ll be enough to get me to kms eventually.
Look I’ve got terrible depression and chronic nerve pain. Idk what to tell you, hurting isn’t a good reason to hurt others.
Personally I tend to feel better about myself when I’m doing good, I think that’s pretty common. It’s not so difficult of a change, if you learn like 5 solid lentil/bean based meals you can make easily (such as stews you can just throw in a pot) then you can just rotate through those as you learn.
Something like a chilli non carne, Moroccan chickpea stew, couple of dhals, and a pearl barley stew with lentils. I can dump some of what I use to avoid starvation when brushing my teeth is a 2 hour battle if you like?
You’ll have more of an impact trying to convince people to try meatless mondays than you will by shaming people who aren’t fully vegan.
I uh don’t think you understand what veganism is about.
I’m queer, and for a long time I was not allowed to marry my wife. Imagine how ridiculous it would be to say something like “you shouldn’t shame people for not treating you as an equal. You would have more of an impact trying to get people to recognise your relationship for medical authority purposes”. It’s just completely missing the point.
Humans are not fundamentally different to non human animals. Each one of them deserves dignity and respect, every cage must be empty.
Passive aggressively wagging your finger at people who haven’t committed completely to veganism won’t empty any cages. Convincing people to reduce their consumption peacemeal will. It sounds like you care more about the sense of self satisfaction than you do about the animals being harmed though so go off.
🙄 when you get angry at racists, sexists, sex pests, DVers, people that beat dogs, whatever are you angry because you want to feel a sense of self satisfaction? Or because it hurts you to see people hurting others and behaving in reprehensible ways?
Yeah me too.
It’s… so counterproductive. It’s like zero waste, we don’t need a few people doing it perfectly, we need millions doing it imperfectly. By being such dicks and so combative about it, they actively are stopping people from having anything to do with them and reducing their animal product consumption. I’ve recieved various responses to this, from “If someone being mean to you stops you from not continuing to torture animals then you’re a really shitty person” (and like yeah you don’t have to convince me, I’m already suicidal, but contrarianism and not liking groups that are dicks to you is human nature) to “I don’t care, you’re evil and deserve to feel bad” it really seems to me like those people ironically just like hurting others and don’t really actually care about improving lives for animals. Give up animal products? Sure! Give up shitting on people? NEVER! Certainly not all vegans are this way but the vitriolic ones online certainly are and give the rest such a bad name.
pretty good summary and it’s sooo much an exclusively internet problem
Some things are so horrible and evil that it’s difficult to ridicule them, it requires a lot of creativity.
Carnismisn’t one,carnismis an academic term, andcarnistjust means “a proponent of carnism” (it may be in some dictionaries already).https://www.carnismdebunked.com/
Deal with it, meatflakes.
meatflakes sounds good. mmmm like bacon bits on a donut
I’ve got a few family friends who were livid when they found out their daughter had watched the movie “Bambi”, because they were convinced it would make her Go Woke the next time they tried to go deer hunting.
“…but I’ll happily eat someone else who has been made ‘my’ bacon!”
I bet he did want to be my ham though!
This classic is for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAF35dekiAY
Too bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
bro said meatflakes 🤣 say it again
“Debunked?” It’s delicious, and that’s a subjective truth for me that cannot be debated - there’s nothing to debunk.
Solipsists are truly the worst.
You should try human flesh. There are some countries that humanely kill unadoptable children, their flesh is subjectively delicious, it’s an undebatable truth! And if that’s not to your liking, Elwood Dog Farm humanely slaughters all numbers of dogs for your gourmet pleasures. Debunk that, vegans!
I have no problem with eating non-pet dogs, but there is real danger that comes from cannibalism. Don’t be stupid.
No more danger than eating puffer fish. Avoid the brain and spinal tissue, you avoid the risk of a prison disease. Besides, if we’re talking about dangers to our health, veganism is quantifiably healthier and correlated with longevity.
And what do you mean “non-pet” dogs? Why wouldn’t you want to eat your pets? They live a much happier life before their slaughter, and it’s easier to manage the texture of their meat when they’re live-in stock.
You haven’t thought this through much, huh?
veganism is quantifiably healthier and correlated with longevity.
in some respects for some people. some of the studies (china study, for instance) have been debunked, though.
you aren’t a dietician. even if you are (i admit, i was guessing), you aren’t my dietician, so maybe you shouldn’t be telling other people what a healthy diet would be for them.
I personally love cheesebreather, bloodmouth, and milk-drinker.
Bonus points to milk-drinker because that’s not even a term made by vegans to call people coward babies. Play Skyrim and you’ll hear it all over the place!
Carnist doesn’t count because it’s not technically an insult. It’s just a name for someone that practices carnism. Carnism IS terrible, but the purpose of the word is no different than Christian to Christianity.
It’s hilarious that carnists get so butthurt about being called what they are though so I enjoy that part.
Carnist seems to imply that they eat ONLY meat though. They’re not carnivores, they’re omnivores. It’s on the same level as using the terms pro-abortion and pro-life to describe the two sides of that debate. This kind of name calling of an out group is not too far removed from all the wacky names flat-earthers give to all the rest of us just living here on the globe not being wack-a-doos.
Using the term butthurt is some straight up 90s era homophobia too. Nice.
From my understanding, carnism is closely related to speciesism. Most people wouldn’t eat dogs or cats, but happily eat chickens, cows and pigs.
That could be carnivore, carnist means they follow carnism, which is the ethical framework that justifies human subjugation and exploitation of non-human animals
genuinely curious, how is ‘butthurt’ 90s homophobia?
I can’t find anything except random tweets saying as much, and a medium article behind a paywall saying it isn’t.
So… I have no idea either.
It isn’t. It’s in reference to “having a stick up your ass”, which means being uptight and overly serious. Because they are stiff, as though a firm rod had been run the length of their body.
People also mistakenly believe that to be a homophobic phrase too. Mind you, there’s a slim distinction here. Telling someone to “shove it up your ass” could be considered homophobic, though I think of it as just rude. I feel like context would matter a lot here.
The youth today think everything insulting must be a slur of some kind and are obcesse with moral purity.
The youth today have nothing to do with it. It’s reactionaries who take a genuine issue (people using actual slurs) and apply it to situations that work in their favour (acting like ‘carnist’ or ‘cishet’ are slurs).
I think carnist is a useful word that a lot of people get caught up on. As you say it’s not a pejorative, just a word that describes someone who chooses to eat meat as opposed to carnivore which is a creature that can only eat meat. All humans are omnivores, but not all are carnists.
I personally love cheesebreather, bloodmouth, and milk-drinker.
see i just couldn’t keep a straight face if you tried to say those while making eye contact 😭😭
I’m glad accurate discriptors of your lifestyle seem as ridiculous to you as they are!
I always feel like “carnist” implies they’re a pervert too
Filthy, degenerate carnist out there holding hands and hamburgers!
bloodmouth sounds like the name a supervillain
or their last name, idk
it is especially frustrating coming from a person who would die if they just stopped eating meat (eating disorder), I have mentioned this online and gotten responses from these people saying that they think it would be better for me to starve to death than to eat meat. it makes me depressed to know that some people want me dead
I am glad that people are able to go vegan but some of you go into a moralistic argument and act like everyone who eats meat is glad about it and gets off on torturing animals
I have too many other things to worry about, to make myself hate meat. That said, I understand there is terrible shit happening in that industry, most militant vegans I have crossed paths with are wearing an apple watch and Nikes…so, I can’t take them seriously. We all pick our battles. In the end, work harder on making fake meat great. Get on it vegans, fund the research and go to school for it! If I can get my animal proteins and whatever else from a burger thqt I can’t tell came from a lab, I will never buy farmed meat again, just like that, overnight. If you sit in front of a dairy isle with pictures of sad cows, I am going reach past you, get my milk, and forget you exist in 2 isles. A lot of people are not actively against your cause, we just don’t care either way. Be more effective.
I’m a vegan, and fuck those people.
I’ve got a medical condition that meant I had to take it fairly slowly just it be sure my body wasn’t going to literally fall apart when I went vegan, luckily I’m doing well (in a few ways I’m actually much better off now, though I’m still scared of falling apart). Medical conditions are valid as hell for not going vegan, I wasn’t aware of how an eating disorder could prevent it but I’ve read a fair bit online now, so thankyou for sharing.
One of the scariest moments of my life was when my friends and I were publically assaulted by a pair of very large vegan men who didn’t like that we weren’t vegan. I was vego at the time but sure as hell wasn’t going to tell them, people who act like that are an absolute disgrace and make me ashamed to be vegan. Veganism to me comes from a deep sense of empathy, if you can’t feel empathy for other people then you’re not a vegan as far as I’m concerned.
I’m just imaging gangs of large vegan men attacking delis. Where the hell do you live? Lol
Haha it was nothing like that, they just sort of came out of nowhere. My city is normally pretty safe, I’ve literally never had another encounter like that in my life.
If you’re hurting anyone, outside of combat sports or self defense, you’re not vegan. Those men might have been plant based but certainly not vegan
this take is being criticized for no true scottsman-ing but it kinda makes a lot of sense, like ‘oh no i hate seeing living creatures harmed let me go punch this guy’??? it seems like maybe those dudes were just looking for an excuse to whack people and if not veganism they would have found some other ideology to abuse
This has to be the stupidest take on the term “plant based” I’ve ever heard. I swear, “plant based” is just the “No true Scotsman” of vegans… anything that a non-meat-consumer does that a vegan doesn’t like makes them plant based instead of vegan. It’s so asinine and intellectually dishonest.
Vegan people can be assholes too. Assholes will inevitably exist in any demographic that gets sufficiently large. I have known people who identify as vegans who insist that it’s preferable for humans to die than for non-human animals to die.
It’s not that complicated… Plant based = diet Veganism = philosophy
Can’t really blame you for not knowing as they do get used interchangeably in the media.
But you can’t just self identify as a person that follows a certain philosophy without actually following it. Vegans avoid cruelty towards animals and humans are animals.
And what if someone is convinced that acts of cruelty towards some humans is the most effective way to reduce cruelty towards a large number of animals? They might think that you’re not vegan because you’re allowing more cruelty towards animals to exist than they are. I have encountered self-identifying vegans who genuinely think this way.
I don’t think you can stop cruelty through cruelty. Veganism is about acknowledging every individual and abstaining from exploitation and cruelty towards them. It’s not some sort of utilitarian philosophy where it’s ok sacrifice a small number of individuals for the good of a larger group.
obviously this doesn’t work for everyone, but this is why i’m such a big proponent of meat alternatives
having stuff like pea protein nuggets fortified with vitamin B12 and whatever else is an actually practical way to reduce meat consumption, if we make it possible to replace meat and barely notice that you’ve done so then everyone but the meat industry wins, which is even more of a win for the rest of us.
stay alive and fed bestie 😌✨
So reactionary, you going to start complaining about loud blue haired feminists next? Apparently it is too much to acknowledge those who can’t advocate for themselves, but perfectly fine to participate in their genocide.
i feel like u didn’t read the whole post so here is a picture of a bagel while we wait for you to get caught up :)
Non sequitur and you ain’t cute.
You know what else is a non sequitur? There’s this individual whose actions don’t align with any form of logic or morality. He causes immense pain and suffering, leaving a wake of destruction that seems utterly senseless. The chaos he creates is baffling, almost as if he thrives on spreading misery. It’s as if every step he takes is designed to shatter lives and bring darkness. And who am I talking about? None other than William Afton.
I think OP is cute, leaf-muncher.
More of a bean-licker.
Please tell me the innuendo was intentional lol
It was, I’m pretty ace but still enjoy lewd humor for whatever reason.
Vegans use silly insults “out of a profound concern for animals…At social events, [they] sometimes gave graphic accounts of the slaughter of animals in an effort to make…dinner guests shun meat.”
Edit: oh whoops, no, that was Hitler. My bad.
Hey, at least I’m not one of those weirdos who drinks stolen breast milk
I buy mine.
From a consenting woman or from a breast milk thief?
It fell off the back of a titty truck
Me every time a militant vegan says “carnist”:
the militant ones are cool. it’s the evangelical ones that bring out my ire.
I’ve never interpreted that as an attempt at an insult, what word do you think is more fitting?
Omnivore, maybe? 🤷
But yeah, pretending that eating meat is an ism IS an insult when coming from an evangelical vegan who considers it morally reprehensible lol
Veganism is an -ism as well. You’re getting worked up about a term that, at its core, just means that a person believes it is normal, natural and necessary to eat animals and animal products. Omnivore on the other hand means that you are able to digest and eat all kinds of food. If someone calls you a carnist, then the word itself is about as insulting as using “vegan” to describe vegans. Whatever derogatory meaning “evangelical” vegans put behind it is inferred from context or tone, not the word itself.
Veganism is an -ism
as wellBut NOT being vegan isn’t. In 99% of cases, it’s not an active choice based on values like veganism and indeed all other isms is.
Claiming otherwise while also asserting that it’s morally repugnant behavior is a value judgment and a bigoted one at that
Personally, I don’t eat meat most days and when I do it’s from a LACK of an active choice not to do so, not a choice TO eat meat.
There’s just not enough meat free alternatives that 1) taste good, 2) are within my means financially, 3) are filling enough AND 4) are within my severely ADHD-reduced ability to focus long enough to cook for myself.
If someone calls you a carnist, then the word itself is about as insulting as using “vegan” to describe vegans
As explained above, that’s just not true. An evangelical vegan calling someone who eats meat a “carnist” is more along the lines of a Protestant from Northern Ireland or Scotland calling a Catholic a “fucking papist”.
It’s a sectarian slur, basically.
Whatever derogatory meaning “evangelical” vegans put behind it is inferred from context or tone, not the word itself.
Except for the fact that it’s only used in a derogatory context and tone, just like all other slurs.
Or maybe your opinion on what the term means is influenced by your biases about what vegans are like and act like towards carnists? If you interact with vegans on a friendly basis rather than assuming that they’re trying to insult you or that they’re calling your choices morally repugnant, you may find that it’soften used descriptively rather than to pass judgement. I have personally seen the term used neutrally more often than I’ve seen it used insultingly. It was also not coined as a slur: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism by the way, Melany Joy was describing exactly what you mentioned: The pervasiveness of carnism, which makes it an unconscious automatism for many people.
Or maybe your opinion on what the term means is influenced by your
biasesexperiences about what vegans are like and act like towardscarnistspeople who eat meat?Fixed that for you. Framed like that, the answer is yes: not all vegans are bigots, of course, that would ironically be a bigoted and untrue claim.
All proselytizing evangelical vegans I’ve ever been in contact with, many of which have been om Lemmy, have either used the word “carnist” as a slur or not at all. With the possible exception of you, though I’m not at all sold on that based on your denials of reality so far.
If you interact with vegans on a friendly basis rather than assuming that they’re trying to insult you or that they’re calling your choices morally repugnant
I never assume in advance. As I said, not all vegans are bigots. None of the few I know IRL are. A LOT of the ones here on Lemmy are, though, and they’re always the ones to initiate conflict since I frankly have better things to do with my life than go actively looking for things to be offended by. Unlike said evangelical vegans.
you may find that it’soften used descriptively rather than to pass judgement.
Even if that was the case, that’s still misleading as, like I’ve already explained, not being vegan isn’t any more of an ism than being atheist is a religion.
I have personally seen the term used neutrally more often than I’ve seen it used insultingly
Even if not used deliberately as an insult, it’s inherently non-neutral as it infers a belief system that isn’t there in 99% of cases and simultaneously lumps everyone who’s not vegan together in one group like a fundamentalist religious person would lump everyone who’s not a follower of their religion together as “heathens” and “apostates”.
It was also not coined as a slur
It was coined by a vegan activist to generalize about a lot of people who don’t themselves consider their lack of veganism a belief system. That Wikipedia article is about as biased towards support for the topic as the one about Israel 🙄
It’s a slur coined to lump people who have nothing meaningful in common together in order to make them easier to attack. It’s the equivalent of calling undocumented immigrants “illegal aliens”.
That’s the tricky thing with biases, right? They’re formed by our experiences. My experience interacting with vegans has clearly been different from yours, so that may explain why you would think I’m denying reality. Anyway, I hope you can keep an open mind when talking to vegans who use the word carnist. Not all of them are bigots :)
“carnist” has a different meaning than omnivore. It’s used for people who actively defend what they think is their right to consume flesh.
Just like how evangelical vegans actively assert what they think is their right to control the diets and other lifestyle choices of adult humans who haven’t asked them to? 🙄
basically the same way we assert the right to tell people to stop using ai, to stop being racist, sexist, transphobic, using planes or heavy cars, giving money to fascists…
chosing to view animals as resources is not about diet, it’s about power over sentient beings and hierarchy of lives based on species.
Holy false equivalences, Batman! Are you going for the record or are you really THAT bad at discerning wildly disparate concepts and levels of severity from each other? 🤦
Now class, over here is a blatant example of the ad hominem fallacy
It’s quite telling that you’re ready to say “control” to describe people arguing that you shouldn’t use animals as resources, but not to describe what happens to animals. Or if you would use it to describe what happens to animals, that you think nothing untoward of it. You know what I mean? Either controlling is, as you imply, inadmissable and you therefore become vegan because you mustn’t control animals, or controlling is sometimes admissable and you purport carnism.
Also since when is open exchange of ideas and concerns equated with control?
Am I trying to control you if I suggest that you not leave your tap running in California because fresh water is a precious resource in drought-plagued land?
Am I trying to control you if I suggest that you reduce your plastic consumption because we have a major microplastic crisis so severe that human babies are being born with plastic already in their body?
Am I trying to control you if I point out that the modern meat industry is ecologically unsustainable, so you’re going to have to switch to being vegetarian sooner or later since the meat production will literally collapse itself, so you may as well start now before it’s a global crisis?
If I suggest that you not hit yourself in the head with a hammer, is that me trying to control you, or is that just an act of very basic concern for your well being? And if hitting yourself in the head with a hammer becomes trendy, am I trying to control everyone if I suggest that we shouldn’t be doing that because brain injuries will make us dumber as a society?
You have to agree that there are at least two types of active, “militant” vegan: the ecological vegan, who focuses on the many global issues arising from the international meat industry, and the meat moralists, who are focused more on the immorality of meat consumption at all.
One of those is leaning toward control.
Omnivore, maybe?
I’ve seen the JBP crowd denounce the consumption of any amount of vegetables as woke and soy.
Yeah, THEY can accurately be described as “carnist”, unlike the rest of us.
They’re a tiny minority that DO elevate meat eating to an ism.
See the difference?
See the difference?
Honestly, no. It’s still just people being mad at each other for no reason.
If you don’t see the difference between eating meat at all and not just ONLY eating meat, but portraying eating vegetables as a moral failing, then I just can’t help you.
I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
I don’t see the difference between people complaining online and other people complaining online
Yeah, people hurt themselves to own the people they disagree with…but I am pretty sure we are supposed to be omnivores…I don’t think carnivore works for us. #NotAnExpert
We are omnivorous by nature, but we can do fine without eating meat if we get the protein from elsewhere.
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exactly 😂😂😂😂
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marvel fans aren’t hurting anyone
This is how you get slapped by Martin Scorsese
he’s right behind me isn’t he
Absolute 🫷😀🫸 Cinema
What in the goddamn is a ‘goofy slur’?
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hyuck hyuck
[Goofy falling yell]
I’ll fucken do it again
Typical hypolipidemaniac.
