- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
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i was here for systemd round 2
Well done to Vaxry and co for achieving such a feat! I still think it’s completely pointless but at least it will mean that it can now be more easily packaged for other distros, as it avoids the issue with using tagged wlroots.
Seems like a very bad decision
I think its a good idea not having wlroots everywhere, its important so that people dont just assume every wlroot extension is available
People advocating for Xorg make exactly the opposite argument and wlroots got a home at FDO for a reason. Also, this is not a move away from wlroots on technological grounds, it’s because the Hyprland developer got banned because of his behavior.
Hyprland never used wlroots itself. It always used a fork of it.
Why? Hyprland has been limited by wlroots multiple times in the past.
competing standards
this doesn’t apply here. hyprland has announced that “all your wlroots programs will still work”. so they are keeping support for wlr protcols
Do you have examples of this? Not being contrarian, I actually run Hyprland myself. I’m just curious where the limitations of wlroots have been.
the blog post inside the linked blog post goes over some points. each point is copy and pasted more or less.
- like for example the multiple times I’ve spent dozens of hours debugging a single issue only for it to turn out a small typo or a careless mistake that any language would catch at compile time, except for C
- Memory safety issues arising from the absolute lack of any documentation whatsoever of wlroots have also been quite the annoyance
- The development of a display server is very complicated, as they are very broad and complex pieces of software. Mixing a C library with 0 documentation is basically asking for trouble.
- new wayland features that require changes in wlroots tend to take ages to get merged into wlroots, like for example tearing, where a basically ready MR took 9 months to merge
- explicit sync still not being a thing, despite KDE and Gnome having implementations already (I believe it is now, but not at the time of the blog post)
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For everyone shitting about Vaxry, I recommend reading both sides of the equation, not only FDO/Drew’s.
The mail threads and chat screenshots show his side.
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Nice job on not adding nothing relevant other than “(Folks that doesn’t like the same stuff as I do) are (buzzwords).” – you are not better than em.
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Vaxry is not English-speaking, I think i read somewhere that they’re from Poland
Well he speaks english so in that sense he’s english speaking
Just looked into this drama because I had no idea what the fuck was going on, and MAJOR YIKES
Reading his side of it only made me dislike him him more…
The only defense of Vaxry ever presented was that he was a bigot on his own discord and not freedesktop’s. He’s a shit bag and he can take his i3 for fascists elsewhere.
Exactly, vaxry apologized for the lack of moderation and took changes that prevented the incident. to which FDO said, “he we are onto something, we can push our divisive politics here” then got angry when he rightfully told them to fuck off
I’ve got a track for that:
Ngl this will blow over in like 2 weeks, FOSS drama has the lifespan of a moth
Imagine having to rebase your entire project because you’re a piece of shit.
This is the first I’ve heard of it. What’s the deal?
Vaxry, the main dev of Hyprland, got banned from all aspects of freedesktop.org for multiple CoC violations.
Yikes. Thanks for the summary. I’ll look into the details when I’m at my desktop.
But why?
Wlroots has a slow development time for features hyprland wants, as well as hyprland having a different release cycle then sway, often causing packaging nightmares.
Because Vaxry (the lead dev) got banned from contributing to wlroots or any other FDO projects.
As for why he was banned, this is the only thing I’ve read about the whole thing: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
Basically, he violated the FDO Code of Conduct when being told that a particular thing he said/enabled in a Discord community would not be acceptable if it was seen in spaces covered by said CoC.
This appears to be his response.
violated their code of conduct in places where the code of conduct explicitly does not apply is extremely important here. He never once violated code of conduct anywhere that it did apply, and in public spaces was quite respectful, You could for sure find faults with him, but you could find way more faults with most other developers who still actively contribute to projects hosted on FDO.
Watching the discussion here I finally get how it feels like to be a centrist. And it feels dirty.
Anyway, good for them, or whatever. Hyprland was a’ight when I tested it, even if it ain’t my thing. Still hoping for a Wayland Compositor that gives an XFCE-type experience (that is to say, UX without Gnome’s ‘opinionated’ weirdness, and without all the fancy effects that Plasma has. Relatively lighter, also looks a bit retro)
A Wayland Compositor with an XFCE-type experience
XFCE is working on Wayland support!
You can theme plasma and turn the effects off. Why isn’t that exactly what you want?
You may want to look into gnome classic, it comes default with gnome.
It’s not fancy or even popular, but it was made specifically for people like you.
Does this have something to do with the author being banned from freedesktop?
Yes
Partially, it also had strong technical motivations.
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This is just far left acting like how they always act, isolating folks to satisfy their reaching arguments. This does no benefit to FDO. If you ask all these people for any source they will share a 2yr old drew vaults blogpost. They can just go to discord or github and screenshot the alleged “bigoted fascist pos owner and community” but for now they will just stick to making hypothetical scenarios of how they will get harassed for contributing.
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American left-wing values
Hold up, what? The Overton window of US politics is so skewed to the right that what is usually considered left-wing there is right-wing elsewhere. US left-wing (read right-wing for much of the rest of the world) values are definitely common globally due to American cultural export (read military hegemony and neocolonialism).
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woke ideology
Like basic respect for others?
not allowed to say anything
Yeah, this is just not true. Unlike those who are actually marginalized, these people say nasty shit and claim that being called a dickhead for it is a violation of their freedom of speech. The reality is that they actually want some sort of immunity to backlash for their own words and actions, effectively limiting other people’s freedom of expression.
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You misunderstand what I am saying: They are mostly (save where hate speech laws apply) allowed to say nasty stuff. They just do not enjoy the privilege of everyone else shutting up about it. I.e., other people react to it and say unkind, possibly nasty stuff back, which the original people in question get butt hurt by and subsequently whine about “the woke mob cancelling them”.
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The woke mob wants me to affirm that a transsexual woman is, in fact, a real woman. I will not say that. I would be a lying. I tend to pursue truth. Truth does not care about people’s feelings.
Ok. Seems to me that you just want a free pass at being an ass.
She is a real woman even though she does not conform to your expectations of what gender is. Here is the thing though: She does not need your affirmation to
- be real
- look like a woman
- live like a woman
- feel like a woman.
What reason do you have to claim that she is not a “real woman” (whatever that means, I can guarantee that it is not well defined)? Most importantly, if she feels like a woman, even if you disagree on some metaphysical level of nonsense of what is a woman, why would you have the need to tell her what you think? Lastly, why do you think your opinion about her body is important?
People keep saying this happened only because vaxry got banned from the FDO, completely forgetting the fact that hyprland has used their own modified fork of wlroots for ages now. They’ve wanted to get away from wlroots even before this whole fiasco, it really just tipped the needle for them to finally pull the trigger.
Mind you also, the ban in no way prevents hyprland from using wlroots still. The only thing the ban did was prevent vaxry from contributing to wlroots upstream, which is damn unfortunate if you ask me.
You believe his “fuck you guys, wlroots sucks anyway” blog post? In that case I have a wonderful bridge for sale that you might be interested in.
I don’t need a blog post to know this, considering I’ve been closely following hyprland since vaxry’s first posts about it on reddit over 2 years ago.
Wow. Too bad people can’t get past themselves and grow together over preferring to hold on to a situation to be enraged about forever. Sorry no apologies accepted ever. I’ve established a pattern as victim, jury, and judge and my position is rational and not emotional and I will sound off to squash the bigotry as the only way to defeat it is to never move past it.
Pound sand nerd. The chief operating bigot of hyprland never apologized and chose to rebase their entire wm instead of being normal.
being normal
Hey. This is the linux community, there is no nornal. Only insanity
He also did create one of the best wayland wm’s. So he was never normal.
If you bother to read any of the posts you’ll see he claims he apologized already and then re-appologized in the post. But that doesn’t fit the narrative and since we’ve all forgotten how to make mistakes and grow from them together why bother even reading the links people share, they just way down your snap judgements that lead to your outrage fix.
But don’t mind me I’m just a random internet person who saw a cool project being posted noticed a bunch of controversy, wanted to see what was reasonable so I waded in and was met with a bunch of people getting high on their outrage.
Still not decided but certainly not as clear as one side is acting like it is and they seem to just want to stay mad.
I use Mutter
In other words, Vaxry is so unwilling to compromise or learn from others that he would rather isolate his project from the broader FOSS community. That says a lot about him and the people who support him, especially since this conflict with freedesktop.org started over Vaxry condoning hateful trolling of trans people within the Hyprland community.
This is a problem for me as a Hyprland user because if I share some rice I made or make suggestions for other users, I’m leading people into a community that may be actively hateful towards them. It utterly extinguishes any enthusiasm I have for the project. I like the software but I’d rather be part of a project and a community that I can feel good and excited about. Maybe time to find a new tiling Wayland compositor.
Wrong. This was originally technically motivated as hyprland had been limited by wlroots in the past and often had different update cycles from sway causing packaging issues.
Vaxry never condoned hateful trolling of trans people. In fact, he publicly acknowledged, and apologized for the lack of moderation that lead to the incident, said he would do better, DID better, and THEN after everything had blown over FDO tried to ego butt into his server even more.
I’ll quote Vaxry from his blog:
“Obviously, the fact that I am banned from contributing to Freedesktop - and by extension wlroots, is another big factor, and probably the one that finally tipped the scales, because I am no longer allowed to participate in discussion or contribute code to wlroots.”
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-wlrootsRewrite
“I definitely am not a fan of how seemingly weak people online, especially teenagers, have become. Words are just words. Someone calling another person a “retard” shouldn’t really be a big deal.”
"I said:
if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views. which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
that is inclusivity
Which I definitely stand by."
Thanks for sharing this. I will install hyperland.
is another big factor, and probably the one that finally tipped the scales
means that it is not the sole motivating factor.
which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
Literally means that if they go around spewing crap, they get dealt with. This is not condoning hateful trolling at all. He is on the free speech side of things, but that doesn’t mean he condones it at all. If you start posting bad crap, you get dealt with. Minor slights, are as the name implies, minor. Those are allowed but within strict limitations, if you start going full blown idiot, you get dealt with.
He’s completely right about everything there.
Unless he is selectively banning trans people, not making a tech discord server about those discussions is perfectly fine.
if I share some rice I made
FYI: rice is derived from a racist pejorative term. A lot of people in the desktop theming community have stopped using it.
Languages evolve over time. The term “to serve” is derived from the Latin word for “slave”. That does not mean it’s somehow offensive to use the term to describe the job of soldiers.
The modern day “riced” comes from “R.I.C.E” which stands for “race inspired car enhancement”. If you rice a car, it means you put components that look like race car components but are actually just cosmetic. Fake vents, huge spoilers on family cars, exhausts that are optically bigger, etc. The orange Japanese car in the linked article is an example of that. 70s Japan had renown ricing culture so I guess that’s where the R.I.C.E and the racist “rice burner” split.
Nowadays people who use the term “riced” don’t even know that at some point in time it had something to do with Asian cars or bikes. It’s even common to jokingly associate it with the food with the same name to spite other car nerds because you can “um actually” bait someone to correct you that it has nothing to do with food. Which is obviously not true according to the article but if 99 % of people don’t know the racist origin, it’s not an issue at all to use the word.
Well thats not true
I can’t find any source to indicate Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancement was ever a term that existed as anything other than the Japanese version of an N-word-pass.
That is to say: the acronym only exists as a means to explain why I should be allowed to continue calling your car a RICEr.
The problem here is that someone fabricated an explanation for why they should be allowed to continue to say RICE, in response to a fallacious argument for why they shouldn’t be allowed to.
The term is so far removed from any malicious origin, that some people wouldn’t even know they should feel offended, unless someone told them they should be.
I cannot give you any source, unless you want to waste hours of your time watching some car videos. The difference between an n-word pass and rice-pass is what you mean with that. Some secret way of saying the n-word does not change its racist connotation but a ricer by default has nothing to do with race. If you want to be racist, you would have to explicitly specify that you are talking about the owner’s race or the car’s origin or whatever.
The term is so far removed from any malicious origin, that some people wouldn’t even know they should feel offended, unless someone told them they should be.
That’s not normal human behavior. Try to imagine it. 3 people are going down the street. One of them points out that a car on the street is “riced”. Second one tells the third who is of Japanese origin, that he should get offended because of the word’s origin. It would be weird to get offended because someone told you to.
“It would be weird to get offended because someone told you to”
Right, but it happens. The post which triggered this reply chain is essentially a litmas test for what I’m describing.
The acronym of RICE was made after the racist connotations were already established. It’s an attempt to rewrite history so people could continue saying it.
It is documented to have come from racial origins in the 1960’s. Yet, I can’t find anything about the acronym from more than twenty years ago.
Fair enough
My partner is Korean, and I asked her if she thought this was racist. She said “it is (technically), but who is getting offended by that?”
I never used the term in the first place, but if I did, I wouldn’t stop saying it because I know about its past.
I’m fully convinced that anyone who is sincerely offended by that term is looking for something to be offended by.
I don’t waste my time thinking about how “smooth brain” is offensive to people who literally have a smooth brain.
I don’t waste my time dictating to the English; their colloquial term for a “cigarette” is inappropriate nowadays.
And I don’t waste my time replying to comments on Lemmy regarding semantics.
Oh, wait…
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I feel that like idiot, “ricing” is far enough removed from its roots that its fine. Thats just my opinion though
As someone who found out it’s origin by casually using it in reference to my asian buddy’s PC, I’m here to let you know it’s not.
its* origin
And at least in the Unix context it’s a positive term.
Nevermind Southeast Asia is powered by their staple rice. USA is powered by corn, gasoline is goosed with corn alcohol so we have corn burners *LOL*
I’m gonna corn my ford f150
@krolden Cool I know some corn racers, or folks with cars which do e85 flex fuel.
When I road tripped thru Arizona I was tripping out on some gas stations that actually have pumps with various racing fuel blends…never ever saw such a thing in Southern California heh
It’s so ironic how many downvotes this is getting in the context of this thread.
Mostly because the “reddit mentality” has already established in this community, where the downvote exists solely as a self-validation/“dopamine fix” feature rather than flagging a post as bad and irrelevant.
You’re right that felt good
