- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
POV: posts harassing .ml stay up while post criticizing .world get removed.
Any example? Genuinely asking, I’m curious
Sure here’s one I made on .world two days ago and had to repost on .ee https://lemmy.world/post/18245990
It seems to me a very reasonable explanation of why the post was removed. Your only response was “well then why am I banned from these communities?”, and you were promptly unbanned with the only ask that you be civil.
I think you’re describing the difference between criticism in the form of characterizing memes and criticism in the form of a formal accusation.
EDIT: also, out of curiosity, do you think if this was posted to .ml it would stay up?
It seems you are not reacting to the post I posted and instead making up fictional differences that do not exist.
I’m reacting to the comment that I replied to, not the post you posted lol.
Your comment was decrying “harassment” of .ml staying up while a formal accusation of .world being taken down.
Do you really not see a difference between this meme and your accusation?
If you scroll down in that post you find me providing a screenshot of targeted harassment against .ml in the exact same vein which stayed up for two months and was only removed after my comment was placed.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11554797
Interesting posts. Lots of comments over there, thanks for sharing.
Threads belongs to Mastodon
West Virginia belongs to Virginia
Antibiotics belong to the USA
Probiotics belong to anti-vaxxers
New South Wales belongs to Wales
Skyrim belongs to the Nords
Why did you have to bring Skyrim into this shit show?
It’s not my fault. Imperial Skyrim colonized my comment and won’t give it back.
Every notice that Virginia goes farther West than West Virginia? West Virginia isn’t even the most West Virginia!
Texas belongs to Mexico
Louisiana (Kansas, Missouri, Dakotas, Minnesota) belongs to France! 🇫🇷
Hey, we paid good money for those (now) states.
Non non. Vous pouvez les garder.
*California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas
So, your criticism of lemmy.ml is a two year old post you found on Twitter that has nothing to do with Lemmy.
It’s not a direct criticism, it’s an inferrential exploration, meaning that there are many communities on lemmy.ml that are filled with similar comments, which it is.
Terrible, shithole instance that needs to be forgotten from the internet.
it’s an inferrential exploration
A what?
there are many communities on lemmy.ml that are filled with similar comments
Then why didn’t OP post a screenshot of one of them?
Why resort to a strawman?
It’s really not that deep.
I was going to post the screenshot anyways. And when I had to think of a title, I thought “huh, I’ve seen similar stuff on .ml, I’ll add that to make the title interesting”
I’ll add that to make the title interesting
If you want to criticize what is said on Lemmy.ml, criticize something that is actually said on Lemmy.ml.
Taking cheap shots at your political opponents (like comparing them to this obvious bait account from the cesspit that is Twitter) just makes your side look bad.
It makes it look like you don’t have any real arguments.
LOL.
It’s just a meme dude I don’t think anyone but you cares that much. I’ve clearly struck a nerve though.
It’s just a meme dude
No, it’s political propaganda.
Please touch grass
It’s not propaganda, it doesn’t have an ulterior motive. It is plainly stating lemmy.ml users are a special kind of bad.
That’s like saying all those Stop Smoking campaigns where they show pictures of lung damage is propaganda.
80% of the users I have blocked this month were from lemmy.ml, I think that’s all the proof I need.
The real facepalm is the fact that OP thinks Twitter is Lemmy.
if you don’t support imperialism, you’re supporting imperialism
“If you don’t support the rights of these imperialistic fascist regimes to do imperialistic and fascist things then you are an imperialist and a fascist.”
Yeah okay. Sure.
Tankies gonna tank
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Be American
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Largest and most advanced empire the world has ever seen, with bases spread all across the globe
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A trillion a year spent exclusively on “national security”
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Never less than three different wars going on at any given time
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Crisis of PTSD, drug abuse, and homelessness from all the veterans coming back home and washing out every year
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Next election may decide whether we invade our southern neighbor, just for shits and giggles
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Read a guy who posts cringe shit online
“Ugh, I hate all these tankies”.
Every cogent political point must be phrased like a greentext I agree.
When in Rome…
I’m curious, why the downvotes?
Because Tankies are annoying, dishonest, and generally unwelcome.
What are tankies?
You’re on ML and you don’t know what a tankie is?
Okay, so I recommend you get a different instance (.world if you don’t have an opinion) because you’re in an unhealthy and culty echo chamber.
Tankies are people who pretend to be leftists while supporting authoritarian regimes. They care most about what’s worst for the United States, and will advocate for it regardless of how many people get hurt. They argue against voting and lionize Russia, China, etc. Weird, bad, and creepy folk.
Argh, the fifth move?
But this guy points out the faults with US’ geopolitics?
Complaining about the United States geopolitics is not why the guy got downvoted. The problem is that they insinuated that it’s invalid to complain about tankies because of those failings. It was an absolutely asinine comment.
cuz we’re in .world, and any political outlook that doesn’t conform totally to the line of the US State Dept is heavily downvoted on sight.
At least here, you don’t get deleted/banned for disagreeing with the hive. Check the mod logs and look at all the cowards banning people For being liberal in .ml and the like…
- Be Russian
- Pretends to be the most advanced empire the world has ever seen, with bases spread all across the globe
- Invades sovereign nations to try and restore the old USSR that was dismantled long ago
- Kills any gays, any trans, any queer for being who they are
- Crisis of being under armed when invading, uses literal criminals because not enough people support the war
- Has interfered with every single election from any opposing countries, of which there are many
- Leader is a dictator that did away with fair elections when they came to power
- Literal definition of imperialist, while calling others imperialist (pure projection)
- Is capitalist as fuck with billionaires
- Still has dumb people shilling for them
“Ugh, I hate all these capitalists”
None of that is exclusive to the USA.
Which other country has a military budget or base distribution comparable to the US?
Great Brittan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_military_bases_of_the_United_Kingdom
Seriously: educate yourself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases
The United States is the largest operator of military bases abroad
Fascinating
None of that is exclusive to the USA.
The first country on your exceptions list is America’s biggest military ally
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There’s no possible way this isn’t bait.
Yeah, this very likely is a parody account
I wish to return to the time where I could have agreed with you
Oh they probably do believe it, but it’s still clear ragebait
Uh…Russia, China and North Korea are all fascist dictatorships. Tankies wouldn’t be nearly as annoying if they had a fucking clue what they were taking about.
Know the most annoying part?
All these LGBTQ+ tankies from Hexbear would literally be killed in those countries for supporting LGBTQ+. And the cops will say that they deserve it.
Well, not in Russia. In Russia they would be killed in trenches for Putin’s yachts. Or if they oppose Pu, then for opposing Pu.
If you’re going to complain about people knowing what they’re talking about, you should at least use the right words to describe things.
You can call Russia, China and North Korea dictatorships, but each of those three are just literally not fascist. Fascism arises from different circumstances and acts differently, even if there are surface similarities to notice, and those differences are important to understand if we want to analyze them and prevent them happening here. Russia, in particular, is important to understand when looking at the USA’s current neoliberal nightmare.
Imagine being pedantic and wrong.
I’m being pedantic because lives are at stake, and recognizing different ideologies is how you learn to combat them.
But if you want to treat it like a joke, go ahead. [edit: redacting petty insult]
I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize fascism as an ideology, but as a political strategy.
I wonder if it’s useful to characterize fascism as a political strategy, as it seems this might ignore the historical conditions which form it and guide it (e.g. returning military, petit-booj resistance to the labor movement to preserve their class interests) and therefore inform us of how other classes will generally act as the labor movement grows.
How would you describe fascism as a political strategy? Does this mean, for example, using scapegoats (like racial minorities and queer folk) as a threat to rally for dictatorial powers?
ignore the historical conditions
I absolutely detest this phrase and have a low opinion of anyone who uses it. The entire point of definitions and extrapolations thereof is to be able to make simple models that we can use to understand something. The idea that we always need to keep history in mind is idiotic; there are times when it is an important consideration, and times when it’s unnecessary. Simply stating that something ignores certain historical context is not, by itself, a knock-down argument.
The current version of my technical definition of fascism is as such:
A political strategy that seeks to preserve, create, and entrench structures and relationships of power imbalance by means of promoting and facilitating mass, broad-spectrum chauvinism in ways that are likely to encourage widespread individual and systemic violence.
“Chauvinism” here-in refers to an irrational belief that one’s own identity makes them superior. This definition is inspired by and generalizes Umberto Eco’s model. I believe it also encapsulates what people are concerned about when talking about fascism; control and discrimination. If you have suggestions on how to adjust or change the definition, it would be helpful.
I don’t believe that fascism can be defined as an ideology, because fascists aren’t ideologically coherent. That is to say: different fascist movements are hardly ever compatible, and individual fascists within any particular movement aren’t usually consistent with their beliefs; fascists “believe” whatever is convenient at the time.
Edit: forgot to mention that we can factor in history by asking when these strategies tend to be used, how successful they tend to be, and observing if previous groups labeled as fascist used this class of strategy.
I don’t believe that fascism can be defined as an ideology, because fascists aren’t ideologically coherent.
It very clearly can’t be one coherent ideology, just like liberalism isn’t, just like communism isn’t. I’m definitely not trying to claim even those individual types (e.g. Italian Fascism, Nazism) are consistent, internally logical, or any of that. Rather, there are common themes, ideas and features which group them together and distinguish them from other ideologies. These groups form a model of relationships between values, ideas and behaviors.
The reason I bring historical circumstance into this is because this model acknowledges attributes like militarism and class collaboration as core components of fascism, with the implied question: why did militarism and class collaborationism take hold in some cases (where a fascist regime rose) and not in others (where it fizzles or is defeated)? Historical factors like World War I and the subsequent wave of communist uprisings are related to why fascist ideologies were developed and were supported by many ex-military and bourgeois. And that is why the conservative racist chauvinism in the neoliberal US and Europe is taking remarkably different shapes to the fascist movements of the 1920s, despite those similarities which guide your definition all being present.
An example of this is neo-Nazi movements like Patriot Front and their international equivalents, which do not receive the blessing of the owning class, which are floundering and failing worse than the British Union of Fascists. There are reasons why they can’t replicate the same political strategy and tactics as they did before, and some of those reasons are because we now have different environmental factors. They can’t recruit defeated ex-servicemen en masse, so they now primarily recruit vulnerable alienated nerdy teen boys. They can’t yet (and often don’t want to) earn the blessing of the bourgeoisie at scale because the populations have shifted in a more progressive direction. So then we see neo-Nazi ‘Siege’ tactics emerge, which are inspired by late-1800s Propaganda of the Deed anarchist tactics, and that is not going well for them either.
Then, we have White Nationalist and/or Christian Nationalists as politicians and billionaires. They often don’t want militarism or have military values. They probably don’t want class collaboration (because they’re winning in the class struggle). So like their goals, their tactics and strategies will overall differ to the fascist movements, despite the shared chauvanism.
If you have suggestions on how to adjust or change the definition, it would be helpful.
I worry that it is too broad, discarding what makes fascist movements unique. I believe the part about violence is ultimately redundant, as I assume systematic chauvinism itself makes individual violence and violent repression likely. The definition, in my view, is really just describing a strategy of using chauvinistic hierarchy, and I don’t understand why that is special enough to be called ‘fascism’, if anything that will just trivialize fascist movements and make the word itself banal, since for example xenophobic chauvinism is a strategy used by almost all governments worldwide, and which does lead to domestic violence.
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
far-right
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
authoritarian
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
utranationalist
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
dictatorial leader
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
central autocracy
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
militarism
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
forcible suppression of opposition
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
belief in a natural social hierarchy
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race,
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Russia - Check, China - Check, North Korea - Check
Sorry…what is it about these fascist dictatorships that you think isn’t fascist dictatorship?
1) Ideologies are frameworks which guide actions, not a list of symptoms.
Ideologies are formed by material conditions in history, not just a group of ideas put together. That’s why neoliberalism and fascism are also distinct, despite all the surface-level similarities we can see around the world.
Fascism wasn’t just invented by someone saying ‘why doesn’t one person have all the power and get rid of minorities’. Fascism grew out of the conditions of the 1910s in Europe during a wave of socialist and communist uprisings which threatened the bourgeois, quelled by returning soldiers from WWI. That’s why it’s militaristic and ultranationalist, that’s why it’s anti-communist and anti-liberal.
- This list ignores other core traits, including those listed in the very next sentence after that quote, such as anti-communism anti-liberalism and anti-democratic ideas, class collaborationist, traditionalism w/ selective modernism, primary support base among the petit bourgeois, denouncement of ‘[haute] bourgeois capitalism’ despite often working alongside the haute booj to subdue the lower class.
Fascism is born out of anti-communist sentiment in the petit-bourgeoisie (lower owning class), while two of those countries are ruled by communist parties. Russia is a haute-bourgeoisie capitalist state, not class collaborationist or petit-bourgious. China and North Korea openly dominate the haute booj rather than vice versa. Contrast these all against fascist states.
- Saying ‘Check’ for cases which clearly don’t check:
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The CPC (‘socialism with Chinese characteristics’) and WPK (Juche) are not far-right. They’re both generally considered far-left, and certainly not far-right (FWIW, ‘left’ and ‘right’ are a poor model for understanding politics).
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Ultranationalism is not ‘lots of nationalism’, it’s when a country “asserts or maintains detrimental hegemony, supremacy, or other forms of control over other nations (usually through violent coercion) to pursue its specific interests.” North Korea clearly doesn’t have control over other nations.
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China does not believe in militaristism.
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What natural social hierarchy do these states believe in?
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Russia is individualist, not collectivist.
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What regimentation is there?
Some of those other points are debatable (such as congress party structures with a president being dictatorships, where fascists explicitly denounce that as liberalism), but these are some which are just blatant.
And Skyrim belongs to the Nords!
Fas Roe Da!
The moot was stolen by the Imperials! Support Ulfric Stormcloak and make Skyrim great again!
Damn two-party-system. Skyrim belongs to Alduin the World-Eater.
I wish that was part of an alternative quest line. Would’ve been an interesting development.
“The next world will have to take care of itself” – thanks, Boomer kalpa.
Every lemmy.ml community is the wrong community to join.
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Whether you believe Ukraine belongs to Russia or not is immaterial. Russia the imperialist capitalist state, which is what replaced the Soviet Union that America worked to destabilize until it collapsed, has nukes, Ukraine does not. The ending was decided before the conflict started.
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Taiwan is what remains of the old Republic of China that was mostly overtaken by the PRC. It also does not have nukes, but it does have sensitive chip manufacturing equipment. The politics of the island are divided.
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Ethnic conflict in former Yugoslavia began when the Soviet Union collapsed. Do with that what you will.
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South Korea was upheld by a series of brutal capitalist militarist dictatorships installed by the USA after its formation. It is part of a nuclear armed military alliance. Democracy is still relatively new there.
The ending was decided before the conflict started.
What are you on about? If the Ukranians didn’t put up such a fierce resistance and without NATO aid the capitol would have been overrun, Ukranian government replaced with a Russian puppet regime and pro-western Ukrainians suppressed and persecuted. Through Ukrainians incalculable sacrifice they have saved at least part of their country and will get to be a part of western world.
Decided my ass, you think Putin decided that?
For the sake of argument I’ll steelman your argument and assume it’s 100% true. Do you think this is sustainable long term as a bunch of nations’ markets are crashing and the US faces a new recession?
I don’t know what sovereignty has to do with markets or recessions. National security is always going to triumph over any other concern, especially when a foreign despot is out there to take over your country. This has been and continues to be a popular notion.
bunch of nations’ markets are crashing and the US faces a new recession?
Bruh, we’ve been seeing signals of recession for over 2 years. Jumpy stock markets saw a number they didn’t like and jumped. Whether or not we actually see a recession remains to be seen and depends a lot on how much less jumpy institutions react to the jumpy stock market’s reaction
Economic forecasts and financial decisions by institutions are already factoring in an expected rate cut on September, so I suspect it’s far too soon to be doomsaying that the next recession is here today
Love that I didn’t even have to check to know you came from .ml
I’m sure your opinion can be trusted to be honest, balanced, and humble.
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So, you’re either pro dictator or pro fascism? It’s funny it’s the national socialists (what ‘nazi’ stand for) who are shouting that anyone opposing them are fascists. But who needs education when you can get all your information from Facebook and tiktok right? 🤦
FWIW, the full list of disputed territories is much longer than you think. Basically, every map in existence is also picking sides whether they know it or not; a realization I find chilling.
Even maps of Canada can appear different depending on whether the map comes from Quebec or Labrador.
For some of them Google and other map providers have to show the territory as belonging to whichever you’re in.
So if you’re in India, it shows Kashmir as Indian, but if you’re in Pakistan, it shows it the other way round. I’ve no idea what it shows if you’re actually in Kashmir.
I’ve no idea what it shows if you’re actually in Kashmir.
That’s a good question. Maybe neither? Or perhaps it belongs to itself?
Kashmir is Kashmir!
Hasn’t been Kashmir in nearly a decade. The Indian military invaded and formally began occupying the province back in 2015. They’ve got something like 900,000 troops spread in and across the country as of 2019. Roughly one soldier for every eight Kashmiri citizens.
We hear virtually nothing of it in Western media, of course. Modi’s India is a western ally, so it is beyond repute. But the invasion of Kashmir has created its own regional refugee crisis and international heightening of tensions not seen since the worst days of the Cold War.
Which also helps spread the opinion among both populations that it is rightfully theirs
Exactly
We all belong to each other; now kiss.
I put on my beret and striped shirt and start waving my baguette at you