Huh, so in essence boys and girls are raised to the same outcome.
Lmao at all these people saying “men bad” in a fanciful way and arguing that they still have a point because of their misandry.
I really wish you would all suffer the consequences of your sexism, lose a job here or there, maybe get divorced because you sure deserve it for being such pieces of toxic shit.
Men are bad at cleaning => sexist
Men are not taught as children to clean => not sexist
Men can’t emotionally regulate => sexist
Men are not socialized to emotionally regulate => not sexist
Women can’t change a tire => sexist
Women aren’t taught to change a tire => not sexist
Women are emotional => sexist
Women are taught to share their emotions => not sexist
There’s a big difference between making a statement about society and making a statement about humanity.
Every single sentence you say that starts with “Men…” is sexist. Get that in your damn head. It doesn’t matter what you say after that, the generalisation is sexist as fuck. Now go learn something or gtfo.
Could you elaborate on why you feel one or more of those statements is harmful? These sorts of statements were very helpful to me growing up, it was pivotal in realizing there wasnt something wrong with me, but rather i just needed to seek some extra instruction. Seems like the one on emotional regulation might be very helpful to you as well, as it seems to be limiting your ability to communicate here.
I’ll take a shot:
The word “Karen” has taken root in the last decade or so, describing a certain type of (generally female) personality. But why?
Well, that would likely be because it was a very popular name within a certain generation that also displays a fairly common set of behaviour among female members. The epitome of that behavior is one of privilege combined with victimhood.
But "Karen " isn’t a person, it’s a behavior model, and those “Karen’s” had kids (often plenty of them), and created subsequent generations that often learned similar behaviour.
These same people then twist concepts of feminism - which should mean equality - to mean superiority by:
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Expecting been to be in touch with their partner’s feelings, but making the latter take precedent.
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Expecting men to take on more traditionally “pink” work (cooking, cleaning, gardening etc) but not being involved in “blue” work (repairs, mowing the lawn, garbage, etc)
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Expecting men to spend more time involved with the children but also expecting them to do all that other stuff that takes up time, while simultaneously paying less attention to they kids themselves (stuck to a phone with kids stuck to a screen)
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This can include stuff like:
Getting upset because of stuff like “you haven’t taken me out to dinner in a long time” while ignoring the part where that’s because the credit card hasn’t been paid off since that “girls retreat” a month ago that “I totally needed and deserved”. Any argument to the contrary is not taking into consideration [female]'s feelings, worth, and hard work.
Killing a discussion about [male]'s worth and feelings with “well you did/do X and that makes me feel terrible” (even if X occured weeks/months/years ago, and never mind if things go beyond feelings and into domestic violence. A man is expected to take it and NEVER raise a hand, even in defence.
Equality has been killed by “if you can’t handle me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best”.
We don’t just see this reflected in relationships. Look at the crazies who will scream their entitlement at wait staff, or even police. Notice that the counter arguments become increasingly “I [don’t] deserve this treatment” while ignoring the behaviour leading to it. Girls literally choose not to learn cooking, sewing etc because they don’t want to be pigeon-holed into “traditional roles”
So we end up with people like this, whose entire outlook on life is based on what they believe they deserve, with nothing to say how they should act, and everything is always somebody else’s fault. Men just fall into one of those “somebody else” categories.
And boys that are raised under these same household? They see their fathers go from proud to beaten-down and often broke after divorce etc. Is it a wonder that many are now growing up to not want relationships or to start a family of their own? It’s terrifying.
Now I’m not going to say that this is all women. I’ve met great women and an proud to be friends with many who are intelligent, self-sufficient, and (hopefully) absent of most of the bullshit above. However, there are an increasing - and rather frightening - number who appear to subscribe to the above, attempting to find a man who “deserves” them (i.e be perfect) without looking at what they bring to the table other than a nice TikTok/Insta profile.
The reality is, a good relationship is a combination of the foundation you start with, what you put in, and sometimes a bit of luck. You need concrete and clean water on solid ground to start. That doesn’t work if one person is contributing just sand or water.
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It’s easy, any person claiming to know more about the entirety of the population of any group, no matter if it’s men, women, or cardboard boxes, is wrong. This is what you’re doing. It pisses me off that you think biological differences define people for who they are, which is essentially what you’re doing by lumping “men” into the “rapists” category, just because you claim it’s too much effort to differentiate.
You don’t seem to be reading my comments, or perhaps you are conflating them with someone elses?
Firstly, I asked why the statements that I said are not sexist are harmful, I don’t think your statement answers that.
Second, the whole point of my initial post and the original post here, is that it isn’t biological differences, it’s social differences about how you are raised, how you were taught. Within a western context we all were sent to the same schools, the same playground experiences, the same movies and TV and the same daycares. Even if an individual escapes the socialization of one of these vectors, they are still exposed to all the others. that’s what’s under critique, not inherent truths about humanity. It’s important to introspect on these issues and seek to unlearn the parts that are harmful.
I also never even mentioned the word rapists in any of my comments, that seems like an entirely separate conversation entirely.
The concept that generalising statements are still applicable, even if they are not correct for every single person in the generalised group, is a bit complex, but if you sit down and think hard about it you might get it.
even if they are not correct for every single person in the generalised group
That’s your problem, you’re willing to lump everyone together. I can also go around looking at every minutia and flaw I can find from different people and lumping them all together under the “Women” umbrella, but I don’t because I’m not fucking stupid. Tell me again the percentage of the male population that does each and every single different thing you claim all men do? That’s right, it’s a fraction of a percentage. Most men are good. And yet “all men” enter your generalisation.
I would say intent really matters because a lot of times when people sort of step away from the issue in that way, it’s really just a thinly veiled way of espousing their beliefs without taking any blowback.
That I can certainly agree with, I guess I made that with the implicit assumption that they are made in good faith.
Caught me, I’m a self-hating man, definitely not a guy who is upset about societal standards applied to men giving us fucked tools for dealing with society in a civil manner.
The sheer gall of speaking about an entire half of the global population and generalising about them tells me enough about you. You don’t need to hide beneath a veneer of sarcasm and imply you actually have a point when you just want to diss people like you keep doing.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
Where did they say no good men exist?
It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it’s a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
Nope.
When you’re talking about demographics, you do not need to carve out exceptions for every single little outlier—it would be useless to talk about them otherwise.
It implies they had some bad dates.
okay but we’re not talking about another subsection… we’re talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn’t be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
There’s nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it’s not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there’s some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn’t careful enough with her phrasing, she didn’t say “some” men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven’t been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it’s really frustrating to me honestly. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been on both sides of this conversation, and I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been a problematic man. I’ve been a healthy man. and now I’m not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn’t even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it’s just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it’s enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
There is no “being careful with phrasing”. You and your cohort essentially start every sentence with “Men…” this or “Men…” that. It doesn’t matter what point you think you’re trying to make. You automatically invalidate it by arguing about all men and disregarding individuality. That’s misandry. Get it in your head.
my cohort? lmfao dude. I don’t KNOW every individual man but I have to be careful no matter who it is. that’s not misandry. men are scared of being lonely or perceived as threatening or being made fun of. women are scared of being raped and killed. nobody called you a rapist, dude, but we can’t trust blindly.
Then why not talk about rapists ? It’s so easy to exclude people who aren’t part of that group, just name and shame the damn group instead of a super-category they belong to.
how am I to know whether any given man is a rapist? we’re talking about men here because women need to be careful around all men. I don’t hate men, I generally love them; nobody wants to have to be this careful. Andrew Tate being as popular as he was only scares people more. because of all this, many women have given up on looking for male partners. I can’t really blame them; in many places, the risk is high.
The irony being that those are their genuine concerns.
I mean…you’re not wrong, but it is a part of the conversation without context.
People tend to date a type. I’ve known plenty of girls who tend to date that type of man.
My SIL is like that and I hated every guy she introduced me to. The guy shes with now (and likely forever) was like that, but he’s definitely grown a lot during their relationship and now I think eh is a pretty cool guy. He’s still got some jagged edges but he’s not Dudebro McChismo anymore for sure.
For every Dudebro McChismo there’s plenty of Whitney Wineos and Sally Spadays and Jimmy Porchmonkeys. Stereotypes exist because there’s a sizeable chunk of a population that continues to live up to them.
I went to the same high school as one of the kids from Jersey Shore during the height of his fame. And we weren’t all Guido Paisono fucks like him, but we definitely had an outsized share.
I believe in women’s rights and equity and equality for all types of people. That said, I found someone who makes my life interesting. Unfortunately my life is interesting in the wrong ways like half the time. It’s aging me and I will die and early death. But that’s at least an interesting life. Otherwise she doesn’t do shit. No Job, no dishes, nothing. The only and most Important things she does is to teach the kids, do their workbooks together and pay the various bills. That’s stuff I can’t ever do because I go to work. While I’m happy that she does those things, I think she better find a job after the kids become more independent. That has literally been her excuse for not having a job for the past 15 years. So when the kids are finally doing well in school on their own, I will nag her like she nags me to get the garbage out. I will nag her to go get a job. That’s my plan and I’m sticking to it because hey, she should be doing something desirable right? LOL. They cut her stomach up to get our babies out. That’s probably the next excuse, a pretty good one, until I have my last breath. And to that I say: “Whatever babe, let me watch my show”.
Please don’t let stupid memes color your personal life weird. Whatever is going on with you and your SO is not a “societal” issue, it’s deeply personal and you’re both mature enough (I assume) to talk like reasonable people about it. Therapy may also help
i’m wondering how long it’s going to be before society realizes it has to do something about this unless it wants people like tate raising their children.
This has been a problem in the making for a long time and it’s even worse now with the internet so accessible.
Idk if it’s getting worse, most gen z boys seem to have been taught to clean much better than those before and are expected to be able to cook. That’s not to say all movements to equality happen in the right direction, it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
yeah but that’s equivalent to shit like showering and brushing your teeth. If you don’t know how to do that shit you quite literally are a dependent.
it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
this is more of a shitpost than anything to be fair.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
yes, and this is why i think we should be completely ignoring this aspect. It’s not really primed to do anything productive.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
it’s not that we need to call it out, we shouldn’t allow it. Everybody called out the bad behavior of hitler, it’s not like he up and stopped doing that shit.
the best way to do this is to instill it in the minds of children as they grow up. Which it seems we aren’t doing at much of any rate.
This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
exactly.
I’m a cunt and i blame it on men.
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Yes, and also not incentivized as adults to change, shitty toxic alpa-bs traits often lead to a better financial status, and what is somehow even worse, to a better social status bcs we are meant to adore & respect such individuals.
(But also such dickishness isn’t a behaviour type exclusive to men or male biology imho, that fact that we currently associate (and even encourage/keep the cycle repeating) this with men is the result of fucked up social constructs of the past, a shitty legacy of a flawed race.)
As if the wildabeasts with Karen haircuts, the inability to change a tire, and the ability to complain makes these women somehow better than the men they complain about. Thunderthighs -away-
Men grow up to have whatever habits worked well for them when they were boys.
Tolerate dishonesty in boys? They’ll be dishonest as men.
Encourage aggression in boys? They’ll be aggressive as men.
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
This is inevitably true of women too, though girls tend to push different boundaries than boys.
Reward emotional manipulation in girls? They’ll be emotionally manipulative as women. (Boys do this too, but they’re often not as subtle about it, get called out, and switch to anger instead)
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
- Pickiness in women? “It’s her fundamental right to be picky!”
- Pickiness in men? “Zomg, what a misogynistic incel!!!1!”
That gap is indicative of how much anti-male hatred and gender hypocrisy there is floating around out there. Pick one attitude or the other for both sexes to share, but you cannot have each sex be subject to a unique attitude in any society that purports to “value equality”.
Encourage aggression in boys? They’ll be aggressive as men
Women - especially educators - frequently paint competitiveness and a need for physical action as “aggression”, because they don’t understand what they are looking at. They aren’t men, so they have no frame of reference to interpret masculine behaviour correctly in the first place. This is why boys everywhere are being denied the masculinity they so desperately need, and instead are being treated as broken girls, leading to severely malformed adults who don’t know how to be men.
It’s time to re-introduce gender-segregated schools, and have boy’s-only schools staffed with only male teachers. So many boys are starving for the same-sex role models that women simply cannot provide…
Edit: hmmm… loads of butthurt downvotes… but not a single objection.
Oblige pickiness in boys? They’ll be picky as men.
I feel like this isn’t necessarily a bad thing… My son is super picky, and it’s annoying for sure, but it doesn’t deserve to be in the same list as dishonesty or aggression… It means he knows what he likes and won’t let anyone push him into something he’s not comfortable with. He’ll try new things on occasion, but he has to be ready for it, if we push him he just digs in and refuses to budge. I’ve had the best results with “hey bud, want to try this? It’s really good” and when he says no, “suit yourself, more for me.” It doesn’t work often, but when it does, it sticks. New food option unlocked. My wife will bargain with him, and she gets him to try stuff, but only to get what she’s offering, even if he ends up liking it, he needs to keep up the appearance that he doesn’t because it’s been made into such a big deal…
There are pluses and minuses for most things. Aggression can be very useful if the kid is into sports, or even competitive video games. Too much can be a problem, but too little and you get Milton from Office Space.
Pickiness can be thought of as the opposite of adventurousness. If someone’s too picky they may never try new things. If they’re too adventurous, they may never settle down, and might seek out situations that are too dangerous and thrilling.
I don’t know if how you’re raising your kid is good or not. But, I do know that as a kid, my parents never would have put up with that kind of pickiness. Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn’t eat that meal. On one hand, this did result in my absolutely hating brussels sprouts. They were always prepared ultra mushy and now, even if I try some that are prepared well, the memory of the disgusting ones comes up and I gag. On the other hand, I’m pretty adventurous when it comes to trying new foods. I’ll hesitate a bit at brains or other organs, bugs, and fermented things, but other than that I’m eager to try new things. I think overall it served me well to have been pushed to eat outside my tiny comfort zone as a kid.
Ok, there’s a lot here so I’m going to try to address it all without losing my train of thought and going off on too many tangents…
For one, I don’t think food pickiness translates at all to general adventurousness. Our daughter will try anything food-wise, but she’s a chicken otherwise. Fortunately she’s not quite as stubborn as our son, and she’s also a show-off, so she’ll overcome her fear if it gives her something to brag about.
I was a pretty picky eater as a child too, but I would also leave the house and do my own thing way past when I was expected to come home, much to the chagrin of whichever parent I was living with at the time. My dad would just send me to bed with no TV if I didn’t eat what was presented, which was a pretty big motivator to me at the time, as well as trying to make me feel bad for insulting his ability to cook. I remember swordfish that was like leather, and scallops like rubber… I’ll never try either of those things now. My mom on the other hand would go apeshit if I didn’t eat her food, there were more than a few times she would force feed me, just one of many ways she illustrated the line between discipline and abuse by stepping over it …
Anywho… We can’t really do the whole “eat it or you go hungry” thing with our son because he was born with a heart defect that makes it hard for him to gain weight, and that’s the one thing he needs to do to overcome it. He just turned 7, and while his height is about average, his weight is about that of a 5 year old. He’s a noodle.
I don’t think being forced to try new foods when you’re young makes you more likely to try new foods as you get older, you just get more ok with trying new foods as you get older regardless.
Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn’t eat that meal.
My mother tried that with me. Unfortunately for her, I inherited her stubbornness, so I was willing to just not eat and/or be punished.
Eventually she caved and changed the rule from “Eat what I make or don’t eat” to “Eat what I make or make something your damn self”, which I found much more agreeable.
Oh hey, it’s me
My mom wasn’t as stubborn though, she caved to “Fine, make it yourself” pretty early, and then I ended up being a decent cook. I attribute the fact that I took Home Ec (particularly cooking) to the fact that I was picky, and was allowed to be so
People in general, gender unrelated, IMHO
Yep. Kinda.
Im hitting 40 and those memes about being thankful for not being a part of the whole dating app weirdness is real. My two friends who are single and my age are sick of dating anyone under 35.
Sucks that your type has this character.
True, but it encompasses a lot of people.
what good ever comes from being desirable to women?
half your shit + any alimony payments 10 years from now
This is why I prefer queer people, they generally know how to be themselves and have emotions.
As a gay guy, I call bullshit on that, unless you’re bi and have first-hand experience.
My experience is my queer circle. We have a nice online space where being yourself is normalized so there’s no pressure to act all manly or whatever.
There’s def something to be said by just how alien the cishet dynamic is to me for example.
I have no concerns regarding children, no concerns regarding gender or power, I’m in a transbian relationship with another trans woman, we don’t have to work very hard to be equal in terms of societal sex dynamics.
It’s not all like we’re super enlightened Buddhist monks or something, we fight and get pissed and get upset, but man, that kind of discomfort and disconnect and almost a quiet rage I feel that cishet men and women have towards each other because of the broader state of societal relations between the groups just isn’t something that plays into it for me.
I suppose while being queer is generally more a curse practically in most of the world, this sort of freedom is some reward for surviving through it. I’m grateful to my past self for powering through all the threats of violence and suffering, through being disowned and everything and tell her that living will be worth it one day, and that everything will be alright.
Accepting that one is queer often includes a significant deal of shedding at least some of the internalized constraining expectations of society in order to accept yourself, so queer folk have a ‘cleaner’ slate to resocialize themselves on, if you will.
As a general rule, obviously none of this is universal, and there are plenty of poorly socialized toxic queer folk out there. But I’m inclined to agree that they’re less likely to be toxic, in my experience as well.
I’m not gonna be the “not all men” guy because this person does have a point,
But I will say, if all you look for is negatives, that’s all you’re gonna find.
Not being desirable can also solely be a lack of positives.
Ah yes, you look at the entirety of the male population, say “there’s no positives”, and still think you have a point 😂😂😂.
It’s like you can’t even wrap your own head around the sheer amount of misandry oozing from your mouth.
That wasn’t my point. Good job failing at reading comprehension.
I’d say the game was definitely rigged from the start, but perhaps not just in the way men are raised and socialised.
If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you’re a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you’re a misogynistic pig.
Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing (this is technically true, normally it’s “how the feck do I pay my rent this month, I just spent all my money on <insert hobby keeping you sane here>”).
I’d agree that men are definitely not raised and socialised for that kind of system, but then again who wants to be?
I’d agree that men are definitely not raised and socialised for that kind of system, but then again who wants to be?
nobody wants to be here here, we were all born without the input of our own opinion. You can either do something to change society to improve it for the better generally, or you can sit there and go “well idk guys society is hard to do”
we quite literally just have to build a society that builds men up throughout their lives, we need to give them something to care about socially. Currently, they have nothing.
Hrm, I’m not sure there. I’d say it’s closer to just not knocking them down so often. Most of the time, men and women can build themselves up.
A lot of the issues we currently have are based on women being taught to knock men down, and men being taught to knock women down. Oddly enough, which side has it worse depends on where you’re from, but the motivation for it is always the same - power and the maintenance of.
Hrm, I’m not sure there. I’d say it’s closer to just not knocking them down so often. Most of the time, men and women can build themselves up.
when they have a proper conceptualization and understanding of the world, absolutely, the problem is that we don’t exactly raise them with one. This is the reason the manosphere is so prominent.
The problem is not individuals being assholes and raping people for no reason, the problem is a lack of instilling a good social culture in boys as they grow leading them to be primed to be a good person in society. Like i said currently we just kinda shit them out of hs and into college or not, and that’s literally it. There’s nothing to be interested in or excited about. If you’re a woman growing up in modern society there’s a lot to be interested in, college enrollments are up, more women are getting educated, more women are going into large businesses and managerial rolls, there’s a lot of perceived social progress there.
the problem is men don’t really have anything of the sort to care about. Everything they previously had to care about was removed and reinstated with something counter intuitive to what it proposed. We haven’t replaced what no longer exists, there is just a void here, and it’s no surprise that men enroll in college less, pursue higher education less, and are generally worse off in life (higher rates of suicide etc)
I think you’ve touched on the problem at hand here, i think the part you don’t quite realize is that this is a secondary knock on effect of the prior (what i just mentioned) this is all to be expected as a result from something of this caliber.
i think right now one of the best strategies that we have is to build up the capability of being a good role model, and in general being a good person in boys/young men, it’s a little bit reminiscent of previous norms, but we don’t really have many options here. One thing that is bound to be pretty effective here is utilizing them to be a social group leader of their domain (mostly other men)
You raise some excellent points here, however I’m not entirely swayed.
Your point about raising men with a good social culture is a good one, however it has its roots in the fallacy which really lies at the heart of the matter - that only men need fixing.
As a man, I’ve sat through a work conversation where a group of women (including my direct senior) have openly denigrated men in humour (I found it edgily funny). If it had been the other way around, the men involved would be talking to HR the next day, no laughs involved. The standards to which both parties are held need to be the same, though what those standards are is anybody’s guess.
Equality, equity, justice: that lovely ladder graphic. If you give students extra resources, their outcomes are better. “Women in stem”, “women’s networking day”, all aimed in one place at one group. In our drive to redress imbalance against women, we have created one against men. It isn’t the fact that young men feel isolated and need socialising that’s stopping them, it’s the fact that the deck is rigged against them and we celebrate that rigging.
What you see with the “manosphere” (never heard it called that before, I like the name), is the froth and bubbles. The boys who are angry, but who can’t do anything about it, are the ones who tumble in there and become monsters instead.
The solution isn’t simple, and while socialisation will help a little, there needs to be fundamental changes to the social world before we can move forward. If your argument were to be, say, socialising both men and women to be kinder to one another, I’d be with you.
Your point about raising men with a good social culture is a good one, however it has its roots in the fallacy which really lies at the heart of the matter - that only men need fixing.
i think this is a misunderstanding of my point. I’m not saying that men are fucking stupid and retarded, i’m saying that society has let men slip through it’s fingers into a pit of despair, with little to help them crawl out of it. Women are socially better equipped to deal with this for various different reasons, and socially they’re doing pretty good right now because of their workforce and education push happening right now, which is a good thing, presumably they will have a similar problem in the future, however i don’t think it’s going to be as significant as they all have really solid support structures, men often have none. Socially it’s ok for women to engage in them and to partake in them, socially for men, it’s not nearly as acceptable.
As a collective society, fathers, mothers, family relatives, we all need to work and focus on raising better men going forward who can be more functional in society, as well as giving them a clear place to exist, because right now, there isn’t really a place for them to exist.
As a man, I’ve sat through a work conversation where a group of women (including my direct senior) have openly denigrated men in humour (I found it edgily funny). If it had been the other way around, the men involved would be talking to HR the next day, no laughs involved. The standards to which both parties are held need to be the same, though what those standards are is anybody’s guess.
this is definitely a problem, and this is why i’m leaving these comments, people focus too much on this aspect of the issue, rather than the aspect we should be collectively focusing on, including you at the moment.
Equality, equity, justice: that lovely ladder graphic. If you give students extra resources, their outcomes are better. “Women in stem”, “women’s networking day”, all aimed in one place at one group. In our drive to redress imbalance against women, we have created one against men.
this is a different story entirely, and im not sure how much of this is a problem, though it’s probably not the optimal way of going about it either so.
It isn’t the fact that young men feel isolated and need socialising that’s stopping them, it’s the fact that the deck is rigged against them and we celebrate that rigging.
i think it’s more along the lines that men are essentially an english speaker who up and moved to a place with a completely different culture and a completely different language, they just can’t really do much in that environment because the expectations they have don’t exist in the real world. There’s a reason we see male partners break up with females who begin making more than them, theres a reason they have higher suicide rates, there’s a reason men are generally less sociable than women. There’s a reason behind all of this, and it isn’t some failure of the previous social system, it’s a failure of the previous system, and the current one. The worst aspects of both systems are rearing the ugly sides of their faces simultaneously right now, and it’s compounding somewhat excessively here.
What you see with the “manosphere” (never heard it called that before, I like the name), is the froth and bubbles. The boys who are angry, but who can’t do anything about it, are the ones who tumble in there and become monsters instead.
exactly, and the reason why they end up in there, is because it gives them some sense of purpose, and some sort of drive, redefining social norms back to how they were in the 50s makes everything they do more logical in their framework. We need the modern version of this that isn’t predicated on women having no rights, and men having literally only the protection of women to deal with. (i didn’t come up with the name btw, it’s what online peeps refer to it as)
The solution isn’t simple, and while socialisation will help a little, there needs to be fundamental changes to the social world before we can move forward. If your argument were to be, say, socialising both men and women to be kinder to one another, I’d be with you.
my argument is that we aren’t raising them correctly, we’re not raising them with the proper expectations or any at all, and this has a clear and defined impact on the life of men going forward, it’s not hard to demonstrate it. It’s not hard to redefine the role of a person in society, we just need to do it from a young age. The broader philosophical and child rearing debate here is how specifically to do that, but we all have people that we all love for being genuinely good humans, jimmy carter, mr rogers, etc. People like that are of a dying breed i worry. Starting there would at least give us something to work with on the short span of it.
You’re definitely right that society needs to do a better job with this. Calling men toxic and joking about their inadequacy might make the person speaking feel better about themselves but it’s not going to help society at all because that kind of talk is what pushes more and more boys into the arms of the Tate’s of the world.
i think even this line of discussion is partially reductive on a fundamental level. It’s an important one to have so i don’t want to discount it here, but i think it’s probably more important that we focus on the issue specifically rather than how what we’re currently doing is bad and how it could possibly be negatively influential. Is pretty redundant when we all know that it’s just not going to do what we need it to be doing.
Granted some people won’t know that, and that’s why we’re talking about it now, but i feel like it’s just such an easy conversation to have comparatively to this one. I’m surprised that this isn’t a more regular topic of discussion, though i guess people probably dont think very hard about it.
If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you’re a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you’re a misogynistic pig.
I agree to some degree, but there’s also the fact that the socialization of men is the more dire problem in our current society by a significant degree.
Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing
That’s not why women often consider men a threat.
But joking about and insulting them isn’t going to make anything better, it’s going to drive more impressionable young boys towards people like Tate.
I think this is an agree to disagree point - my view is that the need to socialise men is only half the solution, and that tackling the rampant socially acceptable iniquity would be a more urgent one (as the longer it goes on, the more disruptive the eventual correction).
Maybe we should try both, surely one dies not preclude the other? That way we’ll be sure to fix the issue!
women don’t want to view men as threats. yes, this problem cuts both ways. it ultimately still boils down to how men are socialized. what we see from women is just a response to that.
I think it boils down a lot further than just the socialisation of men. It boils down to how people see one another.
At the moment, the idea that men must be “defused” in some way, as if they might just “go off” is repugnantly offensive. It’s a line of thought that harks back to racist ideas of “uncultured savages” who could “regress” at any moment.
Similarly, the idea that everything is ok for women even now is bucolicly stupid. This is beyond simple socialisation to solve, and requires a solid bit of activisim.
The really sad thing is we all want the same thing - for people to care about us, and accept who we are. For people not to hurt us, and to feel like we’re part of the wider world about us beyond token consumption.
harks back to racist ideas of “uncultured savages”
Does it? Does it really?
There’s definitely a relationship between the marginalization of dark skinned people (men and women) and the view of dark skinned people as more masculine (therefore more dangerous.)
I’m not sure I agree, but I’m also not sure what you’re talking about.
Is there a view that dark skinned people are more masculine? I might accept less feminine; such a view would serve the purpose of making the violence against them easier for people to stomach.
A question for you to meditate on, as my position is quite clear.
It’s clear.
Out of curiosity, how did you feel about man vs bear?
An excellent piece of ragebait, it became more than the issue it tried to raise though.
I mean, yeah, no shit?
Oh, you’re right, I forgot about the 100 years of uncultured, savage men being conscripted into slave labor to build rail roads or whatever.
The persecution complex with you people is astounding.
