As a woman, this seems universal to me. Not a gendered issue. More a social issue.
I believe in women’s rights and equity and equality for all types of people. That said, I found someone who makes my life interesting. Unfortunately my life is interesting in the wrong ways like half the time. It’s aging me and I will die and early death. But that’s at least an interesting life. Otherwise she doesn’t do shit. No Job, no dishes, nothing. The only and most Important things she does is to teach the kids, do their workbooks together and pay the various bills. That’s stuff I can’t ever do because I go to work. While I’m happy that she does those things, I think she better find a job after the kids become more independent. That has literally been her excuse for not having a job for the past 15 years. So when the kids are finally doing well in school on their own, I will nag her like she nags me to get the garbage out. I will nag her to go get a job. That’s my plan and I’m sticking to it because hey, she should be doing something desirable right? LOL. They cut her stomach up to get our babies out. That’s probably the next excuse, a pretty good one, until I have my last breath. And to that I say: “Whatever babe, let me watch my show”.
Please don’t let stupid memes color your personal life weird. Whatever is going on with you and your SO is not a “societal” issue, it’s deeply personal and you’re both mature enough (I assume) to talk like reasonable people about it. Therapy may also help
I am not interested in being desirable to women. Many women need to get over that some men don’t consider hanging out with women their obstacle in life.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
okay but we’re not talking about another subsection… we’re talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn’t be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
The irony being that those are their genuine concerns.
There’s nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it’s not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there’s some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn’t careful enough with her phrasing, she didn’t say “some” men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven’t been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it’s really frustrating to me honestly. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been on both sides of this conversation, and I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been a problematic man. I’ve been a healthy man. and now I’m not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn’t even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it’s just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it’s enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
There is no “being careful with phrasing”. You and your cohort essentially start every sentence with “Men…” this or “Men…” that. It doesn’t matter what point you think you’re trying to make. You automatically invalidate it by arguing about all men and disregarding individuality. That’s misandry. Get it in your head.
my cohort? lmfao dude. I don’t KNOW every individual man but I have to be careful no matter who it is. that’s not misandry. men are scared of being lonely or perceived as threatening or being made fun of. women are scared of being raped and killed. nobody called you a rapist, dude, but we can’t trust blindly.
Then why not talk about rapists ? It’s so easy to exclude people who aren’t part of that group, just name and shame the damn group instead of a super-category they belong to.
how am I to know whether any given man is a rapist? we’re talking about men here because women need to be careful around all men. I don’t hate men, I generally love them; nobody wants to have to be this careful. Andrew Tate being as popular as he was only scares people more. because of all this, many women have given up on looking for male partners. I can’t really blame them; in many places, the risk is high.
Where did they say no good men exist?
It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it’s a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
Nope.
When you’re talking about demographics, you do not need to carve out exceptions for every single little outlier—it would be useless to talk about them otherwise.
It implies they had some bad dates.
I mean…you’re not wrong, but it is a part of the conversation without context.
People tend to date a type. I’ve known plenty of girls who tend to date that type of man.
My SIL is like that and I hated every guy she introduced me to. The guy shes with now (and likely forever) was like that, but he’s definitely grown a lot during their relationship and now I think eh is a pretty cool guy. He’s still got some jagged edges but he’s not Dudebro McChismo anymore for sure.
For every Dudebro McChismo there’s plenty of Whitney Wineos and Sally Spadays and Jimmy Porchmonkeys. Stereotypes exist because there’s a sizeable chunk of a population that continues to live up to them.
I went to the same high school as one of the kids from Jersey Shore during the height of his fame. And we weren’t all Guido Paisono fucks like him, but we definitely had an outsized share.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society
Kinda unfair, plenty of chill men. If you keep running into undesirables, please reflect on yourself
Cool, we caught a live “not all men” over here!!
With a bonus “It’s clearly your fault as the woman”.
Damn. Self accountability is sexism now?
Not exactly, if you want me to blunt I am saying that if everywhere you go there are assholes, then the asshole is probably you. You being a woman is inconsequential
Friend, it’s not that this is a fact, it’s that you brought it into the conversation. It’s also genuinely not all men either, the problem is that every time a woman speaks up there’s a chorus of men ready to respond “Not All Men” instead of actually listening.
I am listening, I think it’s a case by case basis and generalizations just alienate people instead of making them empathetic or sympathetic.
I also know that people tend to downplay women’s concerns as part of misogynistic histories, so I am mindful of that too. I do my part to speak up against these kinds of patterns when I see them
Edit I am just giving my pov, I wish there was a way to know which approach is more helpful.
Edit 2 but yeah, I tend to generalize too, so I get the need to do it when something annoys you enough
Youre not wrong, I’m in a lot of trans circles and their type of thinking tends to be detrimental to trans men, or at least extremely isolating.
But hey anyone that tries to enforce a gender divide is gonna have to encourage division somehow
This criticism only really works when it’s a woman speaking of their personal experience with men, not when it’s someone making a generalisation about all men.
Nothing was brought into the conversation, it was an all men/ not all men thing from the beginning.
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not. Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if “alpha males” stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
Wouldn’t the equivalent rather be women being allowed to express masculine traits? Which to be fair is well-accepted nowadays.
However, I don’t give a shit if people see some of my traits as feminine. I was born male and 100% identify as male. If others see my traits as feminine, it doesn’t change my identity because I define it. Think I shouldn’t wear long hair? Who asked for your opinion? And why should be awesome traits like empathy or openness be strictly female and not human?
I want to see you again after 5 years. /lh
Some masculine traits in women are accepted to some extent. But, look at the backlash against that Algerian boxer.
For someone who really cares about fitting in with society, the pressure to conform can be pretty brutal. There’s probably more freedom to be who you want to be now than ever before. In the past not only gender roles, but every role in society was extremely rigid. People didn’t even have the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a hat outside. The expectation was that everyone wore a hat, and if you didn’t you were a real oddball.
I strongly suspect that some of the people who think they’re trans are just people who have interests/passions/attitudes/personalities that don’t conform to their stereotypical gender roles.
they are allowed to express their femininity and I’m not.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
A man expressing femininity? “That’s disgustingly pathetic!”
Now that I’ve matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed
Except… who reinforces those oppressive rules?
It ain’t men, that’s for sure. We just passively submit and nod our heads yes to whatever women say, least we are painted with the same brush by association, and be labelled misogynistic or “not a man” for disagreeing.
A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
Okay, I have to imagine you’re here in bad faith because anyone who understands toxic masculinity would not phrase it this way.
I was referring to the capitalist class that keeps people divided while they enrich themselves. Also it was primarily men who stopped me from expressing any sort of femininity while women passively agreed.
same but then I realized I am a woman
Congratulations on your transition 🙏
never hated women but yes XD
Same :3
removed by mod
Sure buddy
I’m not gonna be the “not all men” guy because this person does have a point,
But I will say, if all you look for is negatives, that’s all you’re gonna find.
Not being desirable can also solely be a lack of positives.
Ah yes, you look at the entirety of the male population, say “there’s no positives”, and still think you have a point 😂😂😂.
It’s like you can’t even wrap your own head around the sheer amount of misandry oozing from your mouth.
That wasn’t my point. Good job failing at reading comprehension.
what good ever comes from being desirable to women?
half your shit + any alimony payments 10 years from now
Am man.
I enjoy living alone.
I enjoy owning my house and keeping it clean and maintained.
I enjoy cooking at a pretty high level.
I don’t particularly enjoy doing my laundry, but it doesn’t hinder me.
I do not enjoy yardwork, so I outsource it to a landscaper.
I enjoyed being a single dad.
I enjoy watching my daughter making her way in the world.
I enjoy it when my daughter calls me to regale me with tales of her life. I enjoy it even more when she calls me for advice.
I enjoy stability.
I enjoy the silence.
I enjoy the autonomy.
I’m pretty boring.
Age has definitely begun to take its toll on my youthful looks, especially as all my remaining teeth seem to be rebelling all at once.
I do not adapt well to changes in my daily routine or my domestic environment.
I save money. I don’t much spend it.
But I enjoy traveling whenever I feel like it to wherever I feel like to see whichever friends I please.
I do not own a bidet or an electric kettle, just a dystopian stovetop kettle.
Life has repeatedly, loudly, aggressively taught me that all of this is woefully insufficient.
I am not a desirable adult.
Please, take the bear and leave me be.
Huh, so in essence boys and girls are raised to the same outcome.
So… ok, look… I know this comment may be nuked into oblivion, but I’m just a guy (closer to agender in terms of how I identify, but try explaining that to my fellow countrypeople… ) attracted to women, who’s had to deal with a Standard Eastern European male-focused upbringing and am now open and willing to undo that damage.
To get to my point, from the perspective I’ve detailed above, this is too vague to offer any clarity related to the specific problem and/or any ideal solutions.
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
TRIGGER WARNING: the paragraph below contains a trauma joke, said joke exists solely to establish ownership of my trauma and neuter it of its power. I do not mean to offend anyone or minimise any traumatic experiences.
Personal anecdote, I could say the exact same thing as the OC about every one of my exes, all women, were I to allow myself to fall into the trap of resentment. Hell, I’m literally missing SA to get the Abuse Bingo.
The OC means nothing to me (no offence intended, I’m referring strictly to what message I can gleam from it), as I’m sure it would mean nothing to the many people I know who identify as men and are actively trying to redefine what that means for the benefit of themselves and those around them. At best, it reinforces the idea that “The Right tries to sell me misogyny and brain pills, The Left calls me an asshole,” at worst it actively pushes people away from the threshold of change, and, in my opinion, neither option is of any benefit. Why not offer some clarifying details alongside it? Or even learning material if you know of any?
Again, mean no offence to anyone, shit’s as confusing as can be to me and I’m honestly coming from a place of openness and willingness to do better. And, yeah, I know I’m essentially talking to a screenshot from Twitter, but, like… you get it.
deleted by creator
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
this big problem here is that we need a fundamental shift in child rearing and how we raise boys. There isn’t really a good example beyond that. Currently the best you can do is be a good mentor and role model for the boys and young men around you. Preferably without becoming a suspected child predator, which is the hard part.
it’s looking like we’re moving towards that, but we have very little direction and very little scientifically backed evidence for any of this, so we’re kinda just pushing into a marshy field and trying to find a coin someone dropped somewhere at this point.
That’s exactly why I’d add as many details as possible with posts such as this! Swing it from a “you’re an asshole,” to “you’re an asshole because:” and I’m sure this’ll resolve a lot of potential knee-jerk reactions in those who are targeted by and come into contact with said messages.
I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!
this could help, but you could go even further. Instead of “you’re being an asshole” you could say “this is an asshole thing to do, you probably shouldn’t do this” or something like that which dissociates the person from it very aggressively.
I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!
yeah. It’s going to be a big change socially.
All right, let me give it a shot…
Masculinity is good
Toxic masculinity is not good.
Toxic masculinity includes things like couching nice comments in mean comments. Saying things like toughen up instead of listening to feelings and concerns. Not doing a good job with personal hygiene because it’s “gay”. There is probably more, but it’s 7:00 a.m. and my brain is not thinking good.
Being a man means that you’re a human. And like all humans you have feelings. No, you did not use your willpower and/or big brain to remove feelings from your system. No one can do that. All you’ve done is removed the ability for you to detect your feelings. Others can see them clearly, because you have lost the ability to identify your own feelings and are not able to tell when you are having them. Hint: A lot of times feelings will transform themselves into anger if you don’t have a good understanding of what’s going on inside you. Even feelings like sadness, if not understood can come out as anger.
“I don’t know” is a valid response to a question.
Not everything you do has to be “rational” we are humans not computers.
Figure out, create, and enforce personal boundaries. Likewise respect the personal boundaries of others.
As a human being, you have intrinsic value. This is not tied to the work you do or the money you make. It is only tied to the fact that you exist. Because of this, you deserve to live and enjoy life implicitly.
Assuming you’re straight and you want sex with women. Sex is good. Straight women love sex with men just like straight men love sex with women. There is an unfortunate history between men and women where men are the aggressors, and have caused lots of pain, suffering, and death. This does not mean you are bad. It does mean though that you need to deal with the consequences of that history. Understand that going on a first date from a woman’s perspective is very scary. So don’t do anything that would cause concern. Be considerate. Give the woman an out. Keep your sketchy jokes to yourself for a couple of dates.
When dating, remember and enforce your boundaries and respect their boundaries. Women, like men, are not intrinsically good at relationships.
Pro dating tip from me to you: I have found sometimes that women just want to have someone listen to the problem they’re having and sympathize. They’ll do this even though they already know the solution. My instinct has been to try to suggest solutions. This does not go well. Just listen to their problem, resist the urge to suggest the obvious solution, and say something like " Wow, that sounds hard!"
I understand what I’m asking is very hard to do, but remember 99.999% of my advice also applies to all humans, not just men. It’s just as men, you’ve been kept out of the loop by culture. It’s not your fault. Feelings and boundaries are hard for everyone. It’s like learning how to ride a bike at 30 years old. Most everyone already knows how to do it. And now you’re at the age where it’s hard to learn.
Don’t forget you have intrinsic value. Love yourself!
I like this comment a lot.
Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings? Like, I understand that I’m sad or nervous about a new situation or whatever but I can’t function as well when I’m sad or anxious. When it changes to anger I can still do the things I need to do. I’m probably not pleasant to be around but I’m not pleasant to be around when I’m emotional in other ways either so it kind of evens out because at least I can work. If I can take the time to just be sad I do but I prefer to be alone with it so usually it comes out when I’m driving or other situations where I know I’ll have privacy. My friends would support me and I have supported them in the past but it’s just something I prefer to deal with alone. The few times I’ve let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It’s like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
The few times I’ve let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It’s like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
I’m very sorry to hear that. It may be that they did not have the emotional and social maturity to process it well. Or, maybe your expression did not come across in the way that you thought.
Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings?
This is one that I can’t answer as an expert, both because I am not a mental health professional and because I struggle with my emotions a bit due to my ADHD and maladaptive coping mechanisms to deal with childhood trauma. But, therapy has helped significantly and I will always suggest it to anyone who is able to access it.
What I can offer, though, are some tools, theory, and suggestions that have been helpful for me so far:
Find a good Feelings/Emotion Wheel. So far, I like the ones patterned after the Junto Institute as it delves into the nuance of emotions that we experience.
How do you use it? Well, there are a lot of different approaches. What I find helpful is looking at it from time to time to “look at the map” and thinking about times when I have experienced intense emotions, using the Wheel to better draw out more precisely what I was feeling. This exercise generally also goes into exploring why I was feeling that way and contemplating what ways I could act in order to express the identified emotion in a manner that is both genuine and constructive (I am much more comfortable with logic than emotionality).
When it comes to interpersonal expression of one’s emotions, one can try the same thing with a bit of extra roleplaying. First, I might walk through how I was feeling and how I expressed it, then pretend that I am the person who I expressed it to and try to identify how I would feel in their place and why (every other person is another human being with their own hopes, dreams, desires, and emotions).
An extremely important thing to keep in mind when working through past experiences is to be kind to your past self and past people that you interacted with. Malice is not a very common thing to encounter, so try not to assume it.
The idea, overall, is that by going through exercises like those, one builds their comfort and familiarity with their own emotions and are better able to self-regulate and express themselves in a manner that will lead to more healthy outcomes.
Going back to the first bit of yours that I quoted, if you did indeed express yourself in a healthy and appropriate fashion, splitting ways may have, in fact, been the healthiest outcome for you. Being with a partner that does not value you for who you are (our emotions are part of ourselves), is not something that is psychologically healthy or conducive to a stable relationship.
Good questions!
So in an ideal world, if you have a feeling. You should be able to say something like “I am having emotions and I need some time alone to deal with it.” and then leave the area to find a safe space.
Unfortunately, we are rarely living in the ideal world. The next best thing to do is to communicate that you are having feelings and might do some wacky stuff. Only do this if you feel safe to do so.
If you don’t feel safe to communicate or go find a safe space, then yeah, your kinda stuck to power though it. If you find this happens often you have to weigh weather or not it is worth changing your situation. This is very hard to do and is a result of pervasive toxic masculinity and bad luck.
As for the situation with your x it could be a range of things from she was affected by toxic masculinity as well (the expectation that all men need to be emotionless) or at worst, she was using the fact that you didn’t feel like you could show emotions against you. So when you showed emotions, the gig was up. Either way it sucks, I am sorry you went though that.
My personal preference is to only date people who understand that all humans have emotions. You need to make your own calls in this regard. Again, unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world.
Part of the challenge of moving away from toxic masculinity is we have to be firm with our boundaries. This may get expensive, so you have to weigh out how much life suck you can deal with. Its not always clear what the right answer is.
Good luck!
Sincerely, thank you! This is more than I could’ve hoped for and, yes, it’s plenty clear wherein lay the problems.
Also reassuring, because the entire list just sounds like “be human and humane,” which… I mean, yeah!
As a man, who knows many “men”, I have to say, a lot aren’t being raised… At all.
I relate, kind of.
It’s funny that you both place quotation marks around men, showing you don’t believe they are, and yet pretend that you think the fault is in how they’re being raised.
It’s like the dichotomy escapes you. Are they real men raised poorly? Or are they fake men and therefore they’re not the subject of this discussion at all?
I don’t expect you to have any reasonable response though because clearly the misandrist brain rot hit you pretty hard. My condolences. Maybe you should isolate though.
What even is this response?
I was raised. I raised myself.
I see a lot of boys who are so sheltered from the world that they can’t even make hot pockets or do their laundry without someone helping them.
I wanted to be raised by my parents and I was forced to raise myself. I don’t say this to garner any sympathy, because I know I won’t get any. I’m not going to throw myself a pity party because I was left to figure it out.
The only point I’m making, if any at all, is that: school doesn’t prepare you for life. It certainly didn’t prepare me for life… And parents should be teaching their kids how to deal with stuff, and think about their choices so they can make good ones without needing to be told what to do.
I had to figure that out on my own. It’s 100% possible to have a very easy upbringing and be raised right.
I don’t think I need to tell anyone that nobody gives a fuck about how you feel or how much you’re struggling, if you have a dick between your legs, and that demonstrates the problem in society. Boys will “figure it out”.
Most of them don’t, more than a few, never will.
What’s all this shit about being raised? Who raised you?
I was like that, dad left when I was 11 and mom was majorly depressed. Watched a shit ton of YouTube and thankfully found myself on the good side. Around this time there was the war between Logan Paul and the rest of the internet and I watched a lot of commentators call his shit out.
Probably not the best for me, but it did teach the basic morals of “don’t be an asshole”. Most other kids watched Logan/Jake Paul and were insufferable fucks.
To summarize my youth: the only stuff I learned, outside of school, was taught to me by my brothers, in the form of bullying.
I was the youngest.
What I’m most annoyed by is that my dad, a teacher, with a bachelor’s in bookkeeping, taught me exactly nothing about money.
They fed me, and I got older, but I raised myself. I learned how to handle my own finances, and live on my own, because they certainly didn’t help me in that regard, and when I found myself basically on my own at 16, after my parents divorced and I was essentially abandoned, I had to sort my shit out damn fast. It was sink or swim.
Obviously there’s a lot more to it than that, but I’ll tell you this: as a teenager, I had no goddamned idea how to shop for groceries, or cook for myself.
I try not to bitch about it too much because that was more than 20 years ago now. I don’t want to compare my challenges to anyone else.
My entire point is that, I wasn’t taught anything. I figured it out without any help. The difference between a man, and a child who got older, is whether you taught yourself how to be self sufficient, when everyone else decided that you were old enough to know everything you needed to know, when nobody has actually explained anything to you about how to survive, then pushed you out the door… If you experienced that, and you figured it out. Welcome to adulthood, congrats. If you were never in a situation where if you missed a couple of shifts at work, you’d have to sleep under a bridge, then, IDK. Sounds a bit pampered to me.
They feed you and expect you to grow but they didn’t have a plan on how to mautre just a list of don’ts you have to follow.
Do as I say!
Don’t talk back!
Becuase I said so!
Some just wait all the life to be in that position of power and now they are removed from it telling them they are wrong. If you think about it is almost a given they’ll turn to right wing if they promise them the price they were denied…
I hate the mentality of “I had to suffer, so you should have to suffer too!”
And so many of them have that attitude.
It’s just gross
It could just as easily be framed that women are raised and socialized to have unrealistic expectations for a partner.
As unrealistic as ‘be better than a wild bear’.
in my defense, bears can’t speak so.
It’s funny. I went to the zoo the other day and I didn’t see any women jumping into the bear enclosure.
I remember someone writing that the bar for men to be “good men” is in hell. That always stuck with me.
The bar to be a good partner is different from the bar to be a good person/man though.
I dislike the conflation between the two because it implies being unable to have a partner implies being a bad person.
Take a hypothetical man with severe mental impairments necessitating 24/7 care: Is it impossible for him to be a good man? Yes, that is a more extreme example but it just goes to show that there is a difference between the two. Being a good partner requires different skills than “just” being a good man.
I once asked my male partner to wipe down the bathroom counter because my grandparents were coming over. He did a bad job. I got upset about it. He said my expectations were too high. He had left a dead bug on the counter.
We absolutely do not have too high of expectations.
Hey, don’t blame us. YOU dated him.
He did a bad job.
Sounds like his parents did a bad job at raising him.
You should probably align with him on what “clean” means. It probably means “cleaner” to him, whereas you meant “nigh impeccable” - your definition isn’t bad; there’s just a mismatch between both your understanding.
….theres a dead bug on the counter and you call this nigh impeccable?
I’m never eating dinner at your house
deleted by creator
No, I called her standard nigh impeccable, which should be the default. Having a dead bug is not “nigh impeccable”.
Which part of my previous comment caused the confusion? Because now I’m confused on why people misunderstand my comment.
deleted by creator
Don’t be abusive or sexist, damn that’s a high bar to cross.
when you don’t raise men such that they don’t do this, it generally does become a high bar to cross.
I’ve seen guys who had no business even being in human society getting dates. Not sure “Women expect too much of men” is the issue here.
Women do most of the raising of children. Is it more likely that women raise their boys in a way they know will make them undesirable as an adult, or is it more likely that they push their daughters to do better and unintentionally raise their standards too high?
i think its more that we focus more on women currently than we do men, and have been for at least 50 years. It was less of a problem due to the way the older social dynamic went, but as that’s shifted int he last 20 years, it’s gotten worse and worse over time, and now we have people like andrew tate who are the vultures of this problem.
Standards of toxic masculinity are very often upheld by women as much as men. Growing up, one is told “Boys don’t cry” by mothers as well as fathers, and then mothers wonder why their husbands are emotionally closed off.
Society is broken. Less broken than it used to be, maybe, but still broken.
Both can be true at the same time, because, you know, there are a lot of very different people.
Like, seven billion of them. Assuming half the world is below average of your expectation of things, that’s 3.5 billion people.
There’s no one size fits all.
As a man I have to agree, we’re fucking spoiled, but in the worst way possible. It’s not just that we allow men to be pigs and monsters, society expects it of us as kids, and if we don’t behave like it, we get called weird and gay and pushed aside as freaks. In my childhood it was very much be shit or be treated like shit. It really fucked my confidence and effectively ruined 90% of interactions with women, as I became to scared to even look one in the eyes, not wanting to be seen as a threat again for breathing the same air. As many men, it’s a miracle I found someone (or rather I was lucky enough to have a good friend that would introduce me) and thank fucking god, because I was slowly turning into an incel… Now I actually get to be a functional member of society and make someone happy.
It always triggers me a bit when I complain about me not having showered/shaved/groomed my self yet and a women tells me “you don’t have to, you’re a man”. I understand your daily struggle and injustice as a women and that you have it much worse, but what am I to do? Cut off my dick? Shrivel up and die? Maybe then I can become a vile enough rotting lump of shit to be a “REAL MAN”.
