F. The CIA operative that posts all day about how the west are the glorious saviors of the world and that everyone who disagrees with them is a “tankie” or “genocide apologist” or some other label. There is no room for nuance for these clowns, all geopolitical issues are cartoonish good vs evil narratives.
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The scary part is that we’re everywhere. We could be your neighbour or co-worker. Maybe even a family member. There’s simply no way to know! Well unless you see an icon with a silly dog on a profile. Or if they wears the merch in public. Ok, so there’s actually a lot of ways to know someone is with NAFO.
Anyway the organization is so secretive I don’t even know anything about it even though I’m a member. That’s how serious it is!
NAFO is everywhere! Be afraid!
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Congratulations I guess?
Oh my. This one is trash. Like I can’t believe someone made this with a straight face, trash.
I’m type “G”: seeing “Ï” in Cyrillic text confuses and alarms me.
This is a biased piece of pseudo intellectual misinformation. Communists don’t defend Russia and “lefty” (couldn’t you be more obvious in your bias if you tried) antifascists do not assume whole nations are fascist at all - clearly they attack fascists in their own countries without attacking everyone.
This is just dumb centrist shit masquerading as discourse.
Do you know what sub this is?
This post isn’t about categories of leftists or communists, it’s about categories of genocide apologists. Most communists do not defend Russia (I hope) but among those who defend Russia, some claim to be communist.
I mean can you even call yourself a communism if you dont defend genocide? Cant have communist utopia without it.
Not all communists, geez
But some are definitely doing this. If you haven’t encountered them, consider yourself lucky
If you haven’t encountered them
Good god, the tankies are insufferable edgy memelords on the fediverse
Just see my last comment in the sea of tankies. All these stereotypes are real and people like that live and breathe.
Do you really need someone to remind you of how Set theory works?
How did it say that all communists are like this? You’re just assuming things and getting mad over it.
Communists don’t defend Russia
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I’m a communist and I don’t, so there’s one.
That’s tankies. Not all communists are tankies. Tankies are just incredibly loud. And love to brigade.
I think the problem is that the meme chooses to use the term “communist” rather than “tankie.” No principled communist would defend a plutocratic petrol state like current day Russia, unless they simply opposed the west more than they supported Marxism. It seems like this meme is targeted at centrist Americans and right wing liberals who think poorly of communism because they were alive during the Cold War, and think antifa hurts their cause more than they help. The peacenik one is pretty spot on, but the first two kind of suck.
No arguments there, the first two def could’ve done with better labels. I’m just shitposting from my ‘best of’ folders while the Fediverse finds its feet, not a content creator, so I do apologize for the problems caused by the share.
Only fascists with a red aesthetic - Tankies, if you will.
Judging by the number of Lemmygrad users spewing their regurgitated kremlin propaganda all over the place i’d say you should reconsider your position
Communists shouldn’t defend the Russian Federation. Yet for inexplicable reasons, many self-proclaimed communists online do so. Typically they’re tankies with all sorts of other problematic opinions.
I have literally never seen it.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but it doesn’t happen in the places I frequent - and I frequent a LOT of Leftist communities.
Edit: People are pointing to the Tankies Lemmy community. The place designed for tankies. I’m not arguing they don’t exist. I’m aruing against the people saying they’re all over the place and pervasive in other communities and that they’re not a commonality and not the usual communist/socialist.
Pointing to the Tankies communities doesn’t change anything I’ve said.
It’s rampant in certain ML communities. A lot of people are so caught up in their reasonable opposition to the US, it’s foreign policy and the military industrial complex that they start to see any US enemy in a positive light, despite many of those enemies being significantly worse.
Which communities. Someone else pointed to that same community - and I looked at a post and saw nothing but support for Ukraine.
What do you want me to see here?
I think you meant to link a Lemmy post - but accidentally posted the article from the Lemmy post instead of the comments themselves.
You are right, I’m sorry. Here’s what I meant to share: https://lemm.ee/post/3842553
I have literally never seen it.
I have no clue how that’s possible considering how the Ukraine war has caused their apologia to crawl out of the woodwork.
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Okay? But the people we’re talking about think Ukraine should be invaded by Russia.
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I’m an unabashed leftist who has been active in leftist spaces online since “leftist spaces online” meant particular groups on usenet and I see Russia apologists masquerading as socialists almost every day
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Is lem.ee not federated with lemmygrad.ml? They’re right here my guy you don’t have to search hard.
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/1254216
This whole thread is basically just tankies frothing over military aid sent to Ukraine and me of course having the dumbest discussion of ny life. Just an example but they are simply insane or stupid, or just insanely stupid.
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Well American conservatives also defend Russia, that doesn’t mean they’re communists
So stop associating things
I think you’re a little confused. I never claimed all Russian supporters were communists, or vice-versa for that matter.
At least soviet gulags were just concentration camps, not extermination camps.
The left spectrum is the best one :P
I mean, I don’t disagree. I consider myself left-of-centre and the Soviets a lesser evil compared to the Nazis, or even the Tsars they replaced.
Go back up to the image and see the one labeled “Hard Right.” You’re welcome.
Has your instance defederated from lemmygrad? Otherwise you wouldn’t make such claims.
Is this supposed to be sarcasm? No communist thinks Russia is Soviet.
Oh shit, he pulled out the logical fallacies to win an internet debate
Nope and they theoretically disapprove.
On the other hand they praise Putin for leading the fight against the liberal west and choose to see the Ukrainian war in that perspective, fully drinking the Kremlin cool aid.
They don’t think it but their actions are saying the opposite. Otherwise a tankie like Edy Ongaro wouldn’t have traveled 1000 km to go die in Donbass trying to help Russian kill the bad fascist Ukrainians
Or another tankie like Jorit would have understood the irony of painting a murales “against the Ukrainian atrocities” on a residential complex destroyed by the Russian army
Did you steal this from your grandma on Facebook?
Based NAFO grandma
Aren’t the last three all kind of the same? Especially C and D
they are both shitty rationalizations, but the root belief behind them is different, and the method to get them to shut up is different.
F - The Hungarian fascist:
Subtype of the C type. Likes the fact, that Russia is genociding Ukrainians, and calling the Ukrainian people a “Leninist fabrication”. The Hungarian far-right has a similar feeling toward Slovaks, often calling them “Hungarians forced to learn Slavic”, their country “fake” and “illegitimate”, and wish they could also do a special military operation on them.
EDIT: for those downvoting me, I would be happy to engage in a civil discussion about why you think I’m wrong, and even change my mind if I’m mistaken.
This is extremely dumb for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it’s very clearly written with a certain bias.
A (the communist) is describing a tankie. But generally someone who identifies specifically as a communist is not authoritarian, they’re closer to anarchocommunism than the reverse.
B (the lefty antifascist) describes them as a subtype of A, but antifascists are diametrically opposed to tankies, ideologically. Also, “antifascist” is a word that has long been used to label a specific group of leftists… calling them “lefty antifascists” implies that there are also “right-wing antifascists,” trying to equivocate the sides by generalizing the word. Also, most importantly, the description is 100% bullshit.
C (the hard right) a single token addition of a very generic “hard” right person, to appear balanced. No making fun of this person like in the rest of the descriptions, just a list of facts… except “always an arsehole” which I would argue most of these people would enjoy reading about themselves because they would think it was funny and kind of true. Clearly the target audience.
D (the contrarian) this is the modern right wing lowest common denominator person, and an accurate description of the archetype, but no mention of left/right in this description. Wonder why?
E (the peacenik) what? Peacenik is just another historically left-wing-associated label. These people do not have a unified view of how to end the conflict, and certainly don’t frequently suggest ceding land to an invader. That’s a really stupid take on pacifism, and it’s just another dig at the left.
This is definitely dumb and probably just plain old propaganda.
calling them “lefty antifascists” implies that there are also “right-wing antifascists,”
If an antifascist is anyone who opposes fascism, then why couldn’t there be right-wing antifascists?
Communism of any kind is inherently authoritarian. There’s no way around it.
If you have not studied communism, and your main contact with communism is tankies on Lemmy and “communist” dictatorships in history, then I understand why you would think that.
But communists by and large are not tankies, and do not wish for states like the USSR, China, or North Korea. Those people typically identify as Marxist-Leninists (promoted mainly by Stalin after Lenin died), and yep they’re authoritarian, and they’re loud. And, despite the name, Marx himself would disapprove of this ideology for a number of reasons.
Read even just the first paragraph of the Wikipedia articles on ”Communism” and “Communist society.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).
Communists want no state; it is effectively a type of anarchist or radically democratic ideology, where the citizens all equally share power through common ownership of industry… the very opposite of authoritarianism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society
A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless, stateless, and moneyless, implying the end of the exploitation of labour.
The term communist society should be distinguished from the Western concept of the communist state, the latter referring to a state ruled by a party which professes a variation of Marxism–Leninism.
Communism is not an authoritarian philosophy. If you go talk to people in real life who identify as communists, you will tend to find communists as described in these articles. If you look on lemmy.ml, however, you’ll find lots of Marxist-Leninists (tankies) because that’s who the instance was made by… but that’s not really representative of communism as a whole, and many communists find that philosophy repulsive.
My main contact with communism is that I was born and raised in a communist country. Communism IS a 100% authoritarian regime. Allways was, allways will be.
That’s interesting, which country? I’d be willing to bet that the government does not actually describe itself as communist, but instead as a Marxist-Leninist socialist government, because even they know that what they do is not communism.
I’m willing to bet that because most (if not all) “communist” states in the world actually describe themselves as socialist, not communist, following Marxism-Leninism or some variation thereof. As far as I know, all of them do. So, which one are you from?
USSR. All these lefty regimes are 100% totalitarian. The whole premise of Marxism and variations is to remove individual rights and freedoms. It doesn’t matter how you spin it.
USSR
Yeah, this is precisely the kind of state I was talking about. Thanks for confirming. I’ve explained twice in responses to you, and you haven’t actually addressed my points, so maybe you don’t understand what I’m saying.
The whole premise of Marxism and variations is to remove individual rights and freedoms
If you think Marxism-Leninism actually represents what Marx laid out as communism, you are mistaken. Marxism-Leninism was just Stalin-branded autocratic socialism—Marx had no say in the name. Neither did Lenin, for that matter, unless I’m forgetting my history. This, again, is precisely what I was talking about.
It doesn’t matter how you spin it
I think you should go back and read my original comment and see that the whole point was to unravel the actual spin in this image. No matter how you spin it, this meme places an unwarranted amount of blame on Western leftists while describing each label inaccurately and with a traditionally right-wing slant.
Just read the fucking manifesto already!
The whole premise of Marxism and variations is to remove individual rights and freedoms.
Question: have you ever read the Communist Manifesto?
I read Marx manifesto, yes.
I assuming you mean the post was written from a right wing perspective correct?(that’s what I got from your post at least)
I think it’s written more from a well meaning liberal perspective. Probably doesn’t understand the labels they’re using, or at the very least oversimplifying people so that they crunch into the parameters they have created.
A They probably do mean tanky, and I myself have made this association in error. After all “Tanky” in the way it is used now is not as well known as the word communist, and many people who are tankies do describe themselves as communists.
B I’ve met people like these myself. One of my friends was in this camp until recently. Many of these people still look at Ukraine as it was pre Maidan, and don’t realize the majority of people within the country don’t support the fascist elements within. Plus there is Russian prop specifically aimed at hitting antifascists. They sold the initial invasion as a “denazification”. If you are just listening to the words spoken by the leaders, and not seeing the atrocities the Russians are committing in Ukraine, I can see how one could fall for it.
C Describes a lot of the people in my part of the US actually, though, not all of them support Russia fighting in Ukraine. Rather they are more of a combination of this and E, where they want to get back to admiring Russia without dealing with the cognitive dissonance of Russia committing warcrimes in Ukraine, and also getting their ass handed to them.
D This used to be me until maybe 2014, and God knows where I would be today if I still acted this way. Basically anything that was considered “bad” of “forbidden”, I wanted in. The upside is this is what led me into reading the Communist Manifesto, the Quran, and other “forbidden” materials that led me out of my close minded conservatism, but on the otherhand, I also read Mein Kampf, gave the BotD to many fascist and conferderate leaning people, and followed a lot of Russian news uncritically, and even had a Soviet idolization phase of my own. A lot of my mindset at the time was this really weird form of libertarianism combined with unbridled contrarianism.
E I feel this can include a lot of people from any perspective. Leftists who think appose NATO more than Russia’s imperialism, Rightist who see the writing on the wall, and think the war should end while Russia is still ahead, to people who associate the increase in costs of living with the war, and simply want it to end no matter what ASAP for their own sake. I feel this could be expanded into several catagories, but then again, everything here is a severe oversimplification.
So are there flaws with this post: absolutely, but I don’t think it was written in bad faith.
I can understand your viewpoint, but I don’t agree with it. I think you’re missing the signs that this was written to promote a right-wing narrative about leftists.
You say you think it’s written by a “well-meaning liberal perspective,” but none of the things you mention point to it being a liberal’s perspective, except for the implication that you are a well-meaning liberal and thus you identify with it. Coming from a liberal who interacts with mostly liberal people, and who has been friends with people on the left and right and talked philosophy with both: A, B, and E are just not written from the normal perspective of a left-leaning person.
By your explanation, you clearly understand the C and D roles best, which are the right-wing descriptions. Could it be that you are projecting a liberal perspective on something that is clearly a right-wing narrative because you are used to seeing this narrative, despite identifying as a liberal now?
I think it’s written more from a well meaning liberal perspective.
You do realize that makes it a right wing perspective right? When will Americans finally figure out that liberals are right wing in the rest of world?
I downvoted you because I don’t think you are being objective and instead are bringing your own prejudices and preconceptions to your analysis. Basically you are guilty of the same kinds of bias that you accuse OP of.
Of course I’m biased. Everyone is. But am I wrong? My accusation was not that OP is biased, but that the meme itself was trying to secretly promote a right-wing narrative. I understand if you don’t trust me as a biased observer, but you can still read my points and decide whether they are factually correct or not.
If you think I’ve made an error, feel free to respond with a correction. I’m not here to flame anyone, just to point out that I see a vehicle for disinformation. I respect many philosophies on both the left and the right, even if I disagree with them, but regardless of “sides” everyone deserves to make informed decisions arrived at by their own reasoning. When you are manipulated without your knowledge, your ability to reason properly is taken away from you.
My downvote was based on the fact that you didn’t make your bias clear and instead presented your opinion as fact. Maybe that’s a “me” problem as I have a background in journalism and by formal training dislike any statement of opinion that is not specifically qualified as such.
Though I don’t agree with your position, I did not downvote you on that basis and never would unless I thought you were promulgating objectively dangerous or stupid ideas.
Sorry, would you please point out which statements in my comment you feel are opinion and not fact?
Sure. Virtually all of them.
So, not interested in discussing?
Correct.
There are also many People that identify with the names of group a,b,c that oppose Russia. There are for example Antifa Groups fighting against Russia. If I would guess the percentage of People that identify with the names of group a,b,c that oppose Russia could be roughly as follows: A 75% B 95% C 35% Just numbers I made up.
I don’t think the labels are meant to be all-encompassing - all of the categories have significant amounts of Ukrainian supporters. Most self-identified antifa, I would say, would be Ukrainian supporters, as would most self-identified communists who aren’t tankies. It’s more “Genocide apologist + [A,B,C,D,E] most likely means this”.
Yes. This image is claiming that some people who support Russia/oppose Ukraine self-identity as anti-fascists and argue their point from that perspective. Not that those people represent everyone who would identify as anti-fascist nor the majority view of anti-fascists.
Jesus , cringe far-right propaganda
at least half those archeotypes are typical among the far right though
Afghan war had a lot of the A-Es.
- A felt like it was an invasion by imperial interests and was based on wanting to steal minerals (Afghanistan has nothing of value except heroin)
- B felt like it was morally wrong because NATO didn’t prevent the Afghan government from torturing captured Taliban so wanted “troops out now”
- C felt like we should get out of Afghanistan because we should be supporting our own people and not a “bunch of brown guys”
- D felt like we should allow Afghanistan to explore its own self-deterministic ideals, even if that meant enduring an Islamo-fascist state retaking the country and subjugating women as cattle again
- E felt like war is wrong in any and all contexts and NATO should leave immediately. This is the dumbest letter because even A-D knows sometimes you need to cut a head off to kill a snake.
The Afghan war was mostly an excuse for the military-industrial complex of USA to keep it’s ridiculous budget. Also, torture of war prisioners is a war crime, even when the “good guys” do it.
Also, torture of war prisioners is a war crime, even when the “good guys” do it.
Yes, but how is NATO supposed to prevent the (as democratically as possible) elected Afghanistan government from torturing domestically short of overthrowing the government, again?
So you’re saying you’re an E. Maybe a bit of a B?
Opposing the Afghanistan War doesn’t make one a genocide apologist.
tl;dr is that the War in Afghanistan was justified?
You can find arguments justifying and opposing it.
Ultimately I feel bad for the people suffering who don’t really get to debate it
Fake “Communist” losers
I’m E type
Then you’re in the wrong community, Muscovite
😘
The Swedish eurodance musician?
Peace sucks doe
It’s a “nato proxy war”?
Maybe we should describe the war in a way that blames the invaders?
It’s a CTSO war. Evil empire colonist genocidal pos organization.
I think it’s Putin’s war, and I blame him
Why exactly? I’m not here to attack you, just understand, and possibly change your mind if you’re willing? I noticed from your previous posts that you speak Russian, so I’m assuming you are Russian correct? I’m more curious your perspective than anything, and what you’ve been hearing about the war. We can carry this to dms if you’re more discussing there.
Yes I’m Russian I’m totally against war, but I afraid to speak loud, but I decided if will be mobilized, I would rather go to jail. But anyway Russia is my motherland, I love it, and I hate to hear what foreigners talk about it, making every single Russian guilty.
If your solution to this is “therefore all other nations should just sit by and let my nation take whatever land we want” then maybe labeling you as guilty isn’t so far off.
You can’t see there today there is no military solution?
Your average American has more say over our government than people in Russia do. It took half a decade to build the anti Iraq war movement. It’ll be much harder in Russia than it was in the US. How can you be so quick to judgement when we failed to stop the violence of our state against hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis?
If people were bombing and killing each other in your backyard would you be more concerned with who your government was or how to stop the killing? Personally, I’m more concerned about the immediate well-being of myself and those around me than I am about which state has control over me.
I was hoping people would become more aware of this perspective with the Oppenheimer film in theaters. But, I suppose there is no escape from ideology. So the clock must ever tick forward.
NATO was created as a containment measure to stop communism from spreading from the Russian state. NATO still de facto contains the Russian economy today even though Russia is no longer communist. That’s probably why he’s type “e”.
That’s not to justify Putin’s disgusting and deplorable actions; but it is to put them in context. Why is Ukraine being put in the position where they have to choose between NATO and Russia? How can we end the conflict? How can we save the lives of the people who are being chewed up by the most powerful forces in our society?
So you’re totally against war, but you don’t want those who start wars to get punished. Interesting.
I didn’t said that, but I’m sure they won’t be punished 🤷♂️ therr is no power to punish them
So you’re a russian with a typical defeatist attitude towards your tough situation.
Look, I’m not saying living in russia is easy, but don’t get too surprised if people don’t like it when most russians silently nod along to everything Putin says.
Because you’re afraid to say anything. You can’t even feel how to live in that situation.
Gotcha. I don’t want to get you in trouble, so no need to say anymore if you don’t want.
I used to be very patriotic myself, but America’s invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq began to change that for me. I was told it was to defend our way of life, and to bring democracy and freedom to a hostile land. The reality was we were in there for territorial control, to support Saudi-Arabia’s regime, for Oil and other resources, and to support an overgrown military industrial complex that demands that we remain in conflict to justify our existence. I went from believing America was the best country in the world to being disillusioned.
I don’t know much about you, but I can kinda understand that love for one’s country. It’s where you were born afterall, where your family and friends are, and it’s the cultural background you call home. That’s what I still love about my country, and even my region of the US despite everything. I have lived in Japan for the last 7 years, but I will still always see the American south as my home, and I will always have a fondness for it.
I kinda see patriotism as being a parent. Like a child, you want the best for your country, but you don’t want it to go down a bad path, get in trouble, or do something regrettable. My country has done a lot unfortunately, but that’s why I’m critical of it. I want my country to do better. Believe it or not, I actually like Russia a lot too. It’s culture and food is very interesting to me, and most Russians I have met have been very friendly. This is part of the reason this war in Ukraine has been very excruciating to me. I hate seeing what Russia is doing to Ukraine, yet at the same time, I hate what is happening to the Russians as well. Many of them don’t want to fight. Many of them have fled the country or gone into hiding, and many who were not so lucky are dying in Ukraine. I’m relieved you don’t want to fight there, but I don’t want you too be arrested either. I just hope you stay safe.
My country has done a lot unfortunately, but that’s why I’m critical of it. I want my country to do better.
This is the way.
So you’d let your country get taken over by an attacker. Good to know.
Give me your address. I look forward to claiming all your property after you roll over in the name of peace.
Bad peace better than good war I’m for peace Edited mistake
Learn the difference between than and then before replying to my content, you perpetual retard.
Also what the fuck is bad peace and good war? In fact, I don’t want to know because there’s no actual answer, you sad excuse for a sentient mop.
🤨
