How do you guys get software that is not in your distribution’s repositories?
Download the sources and build it, like Kernighan & Richie intended.
sounds like a modern approach
AppImage, build from source, or don’t bother
deb
Native package manager > Native binaries > AppImage > Flatpak.
Yes, snap isn’t even on the scale.
Not a fan of AppImages myself. For an universal format it has surprising amount of issues with different distros, in my experience. And the whole Windows style “go to a website, download the AppImage, if you want to update it, go to the web page again and download it again” is one thing I wanted to get away from. At least they don’t come with install wizards, that clicking through menus thing was a pain.
For one off stuff I run once and never need again, AppImage is alright. But not being built-in with sandboxing, repos, all that stuff, it just seems like a step back.
I ran into the same issues, mentally, when trying out AppImages for the first time - but my attitude changed once I found and started using this tool: https://github.com/ivan-hc/AM
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So it’s Scoop, but for Linux? (That’s a compliment. I love Scoop.)
App images are a very Windows way to do things. They bundle everything so they are big
They are windows, but the linux version of dll-hell across distros and distro versions makes windows dll hell look quaint.
If someone had addressed that better it would be one thing, but binary interoperability is infinitely broken, so app image is actually an improvement.
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Then again, loads of apps share that runtime. And if other runtimes have same stuff as that GNOME runtime, the shared parts are on your disk only once. It’s pretty smart in how it works.
Ran out of space on a 30GB partition when trying around 10 smallish programs as flatpaks. Runtimes are shared in theory but not in practice.
If you allocate 30 GB for / that seems pretty low these days for a desktop system. If you don’t have much space, it’s always best to go with regular repository packages
Here someone had 163 flatpaks and it used 8,7GB in runtimes. So I’m guessing the 30GB number is for whole of /.
I just checked out mine, I have 34 apps and runtimes use 3,1GB
Runtimes are shared in theory but not in practice.
I think three runtimes (newest freedesktop, KDE and GNOME) cover 90% of my flatpaks. Then there’s programs that use some EOL’d runtime and never get updated, which sucks
It was on a phone, and 25 GB was Flatpak
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You should test it out with those 33 installed as flatpak. If you end up with 4.7GB for runtimes, that’s basically nothing these days as far as storage goes for that amount of programs. More you have, more you benefit from shared runtimes. I doubt it’ll be less than AppImages but it’s usually the starting runtime space use that shocks people.
Here someone tested it with 163 flatpaks and the runtimes used 8.7GB. With the top 5 most used runtimes covering 128 of those flatpaks.
https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2021/11/24/on-flatpak-disk-usage-and-deduplication/
I just checked out mine, I have 34 apps and runtimes use 3,1GB
It doesn’t matter if they share if in the end they end up using several times more storage than the appimage equivalent.
Well we are talking about two gigs, after all. Unless you’re using an embedded system, it’s not a much of a concern if you ask me. But it is more, true
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Yes but that wasn’t the original comment I replied to was about.
I know this doesn’t matter these days but once again that wasn’t what the original comment was about.
I agree, it was just about the size differences. I just think it’s good to bring up since there’s many confused about the flatpak size use. Often people might want to install some small app and they’re hit with gigs of stuff and come off thinking that’s the same for every app, which would be insane of course.
WAIT I just took a deeper look at the link, isn’t that guy just showing the runtimes without the applications using 8.7 GiB?
Yes it’s specifically comparing runtimes. Same for my number, I was calculating how much the runtimes used.
I’m a technically savvy but new to Linux user who installed Mint as my primary OS about a month ago. So far I’ve used Flatpaks and AppImages without any issue and haven’t come across snaps. Would you explain the differences and why I would care about one over another?
At the end of the day, they’re just different ways of reaching the same goal: universal packages for Linux. I personally use them interchangeably depending on the application and use case.
There are some packages that definitely work better and are intended to be used and installed via your native package manager (if they rely on system libraries and whatnot). But using either a Flatpak or AppImage results in the same experience - in my experience. It’s a personal preference.
IMO flatpaks are the future of installing linux apps. The comment you replied to lives in the past. System package manager should be for system binaries, not for applications.
But I like my applications years out of date and I think its good that every distro has to spend manhours on packaging it individually.
lmao you joke but half this thread is exactly that opinion
I see the appeal for the package manager for a lot of things, but space got so incredibly cheap and fast that duplication is way less of a deal than the effort to make stuff work the traditional way. But im not a real linux user. I don’t like tinkering, I want to download something and it works. And the amazing thing is we can have both. If people like spending time to package something be my guest.
The funniest interaction I had recently. I downloaded a program that isn’t in my package manager or had any sort of flatpack/appimage so I downloaded it as a deb and it didn’t run because of some dependency. So I could clone the git and build it from source which might have worked, but I was too lazy to. So I just downloaded the windows exe and ran it through wine, which worked flawlessly.
you are a real linux user don’t let some neckbeard tell you otherwise :P
I don’t like tinkering, I want to download something and it works.
And this is what’s keeping Linux at bay. Normies are that to the extreme. They want something that is as simple and resilient as possible, they couldn’t care less about the dependencies or even know what they are. They want
a programan app and just install it from an “app store” if possible.
And the last three aren’t even an option in the enterprise unless your CTO is 24.
Artix repos > Arch repos > existing AUR package > create my own AUR package
No need to use any of these flatpak/appimage/snaps when I can just make a package for my distro. Most software is not difficult to package.
This may be true from your perspective but won’t sway over many newbies / plebs who don’t have the knowledge (yet) or who simply do not have or want to take the time for self packaging.
And flatpak, snap and appimage tend to become the standard to get verified, tried and tested software hosted & supported by the official maintainers or the company behind the software.
Now to the personal part:
There was a time when I was motivated enough to get packages from user repos - I actually never was motivated enough to do self packaging so maybe I have missed something world changing - but I got so tired of having to figure out the missing “optional” dependencies that meant the software wasn’t working as expected and having to trust 3rd party maintainers when most stuff on flathub was “install & ready” and officially supported or at least hosted by a “verified” source. And maybe distro xyz has a mindblowing solution to all my problems but for the moment I am happy with what I have and not looking for yet another distrohopping and yet another point was whilst distrohopping it was soo easy that I could use the same install.sh containing all my favourite flatpak apps & the “applications” folder containing my favourite appimages no matter if I was on a Debian, RedHat, Arch, … based distribution.
I never claimed I was trying to “sway over newbies”? Do what you want, this is just my personal preference.
My bad, I didn’t emphasize the Your-way-is-perfectly-fine-part at all and focused more on underlining how it doesn’t work for everyone which made it look like I was completely opposed to you.
I wanted to say that both ways, flatpak/snap/appimage and self packaging / user repos are perfectly fine in their ways. The first may be more targeted towards newbies and people who do not want to hassle around with dependencies and the latter is for the more experimental kind of person.
If it works for you and you are happy then there is no reason to change anything. Having the freedom to decide how our OS should be is what drove most of us to Linux in the first place.
In that regard I fully agree with you and especially with “Do what you want, this is just my personal preference.”
cant we just have .deb?
The issue is with pushing updates. Eget is nice, but it doesn’t push updates.
On arch?
we got tar.zst
And windows has .zip? That’s not the same…
i mean arch linux deb version is tar.zst no joke
I was going be a smart ass and make the “I use Arch joke”… But if you can use .debs on Arch, that’s kind of neat.
If you look at some aur packages, it’s probably deb…
If I could, I’d compile all my software from source. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of open source developers don’t like writing software in C, which means the burden of sorting through dependancy-hell has been deferred to my shoulders instead.
In that case install Gentoo. Compiling everything from source is its thing. And on the way it will resolve all the dependencies for you. The dependencies you want.
I understand appimages. I use them exclusively. Can someone explain what flatpak and SNAP are and how they work? I have autism so please be as clear and concise as possible?
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That was a fantastic explination, but you forgot to explain SNAP. Oh snap, you forgot SNAP. Intrusive though won. So what is SNAP, how does it work, and why is it bad?
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I tried to install Ubuntu and it kept uninstalling Command Center every reboot. Not a fan of SNAPs. Or Canonical. But thanks for the explination.
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Nix, if not in nix pkg for nix, then nix
Install from source if there isn’t a repo for the software.
Hardcore
Way back in the before times there was only the source.
I try my hand at packaging it for my distro.
the hero we need
OCI
Wow, this escalated quickly.
What is that?
They probably mean Open Container Initiative (OCI), the protocol shared by Podman and Docker.
ty
- Compile from source
- Find alternative
- Deploy in VM/Docker
If I wanted snap, flatpak or appimages, I would use windows. Shared dependencies or death.
Shared dependencies or death
Docker🤔
I don’t like middle grounds in my packages, what can I say.
Docker containers are treated as immutable and disposable to me, like a boot CD, for each, I write a shell script to generate both a .conf if needed, a docker-compose.yml and run the container.
They’re plug’n’play separate parts to the rest of the OS, while packages are about integrating nicely with the rest of the OS, in a non-snowflakey, non-disruptive manner.
I also hate .conf.d folders and always deleted them. One program, one .conf.
Flatpaks and snaps both have shared dependencies, just at a less granular level than debs. OCI images and VMs are pretty much the extreme opposite of shared dependencies.
But snaps do have shared dependencies to a degree. Also, do you use gentoo?
No, that’s not what is meant by shared dependencies, and I don’t use Gentoo, I use Debian.
I hate fucking snap. It might be enough to make me switch distros if Ubuntu keeps up with it (which I am sure they intend to).
The continual “you have new snaps” or whatever it was message every time I’m just trying to have a web browser open made me eventually figure out how to install firefox for real on all of my computers.
EDIT: I think you may have convinced me to try out Debian on my next OS installation.
The Firefox snap was the reason I left Ubuntu. (Or, the last straw, at least.) Fedora has been wonderful.
Try debian, they improved so much over the past decade, they’re a better Ubuntu than Ubuntu now without any bullshit.
What do you mean “improved”? Ubuntu is based on Debian.
It used to be really outdated and missing new applications, with a kernel 1 major version behind.
All that is fixed, they even have good support for new architectures like riscv on par with Ubuntu.
Make a script to extract it to /opt/local and make a symlink.
You’ll end up using it so much and it’s an easier upgrade on your terms.
They’ve been doing snaps for a few years already so it already seems like they’re keeping up with this bullshit (in fact they’re putting more and more stuff there) It’s already the reason people stopped recommending Ubuntu to new users and instead go for Mint or Pop!OS
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