- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
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- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
Pull request #10974 introduces the @bitwarden/sdk-internal dependency which is needed to build the desktop client. The dependency contains a licence statement which contains the following clause:
You may not use this SDK to develop applications for use with software other than Bitwarden (including non-compatible implementations of Bitwarden) or to develop another SDK.
This violates freedom 0.
It is not possible to build desktop-v2024.10.0 (or, likely, current master) without removing this dependency.
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Damn, I just switched from Bitwarden to KeepPassXC.
Clearly just in time. Lol.
I’ll be there in a week or 2 bud. Fuck these companies baiting and then enshitifying it all.
What mobile solution are you using in this scenario?
I don’t understand the question. Could you elaborate please?
A few questions out of ignorance. How different is this to gitlab’s open core model? Is this a permanent change? Is the involvement of investors the root of this? Are we overreacting as it doesn’t meet our strict definition of foss?
How different is this to gitlab’s open core model?
That’s a really good question that I don’t immediately have a satisfying answer to.
There are some differences I can point out though:
- Gitlab has demonstrated its commitment to keep the core of their product, though limited in features, free and open source. As of now, BW’s clients cannot even be compiled without the proprietary SDK anymore.
- Gitlab was always a permissive license (MIT) and never attempted to subvert its original license terms
- Gitlab-EE’s “closed” core is actually quite open (go read the source code) but still squarely in the proprietary camp because it requires you to have a valid subscription to exercise your freedoms.
Is this a permanent change?
It’d be quite trivial for them to do in technical terms: Either license the SDK as GPL or stop using it in the clients.
I don’t see a reason for them to roll it back though. This was decided long ago and they explicitly decided to stray away from the status quo and make it closed source.
The only thing I could see making them revert this would be public pressure. If they lose a sufficient amount of subscribers over this, that might make them reconsider. Honestly though by that time, the cat’s out of the bag and all the public goodwill and trust is gone.
It’s honestly a bafflingly bad decision from even just a business perspective. I predict they’ll lose at least 20% but likely 30-50% of their subscribers to this.Is the involvement of investors the root of this?
I find that likely. If it stinks, it’s usually something stinky’s fault.
Are we overreacting as it doesn’t meet our strict definition of foss?
They are attempting to subvert one of the FOSS licenses held in the highest regard. You cannot really be much more anti than this.
An “honest” switch to completely proprietary licenses with a public announcement months prior would have been easier to accept.
Gitlab has demonstrated its commitment to keep the core of their product, though limited in features, free and open source. As of now, BW’s clients cannot even be compiled without the proprietary SDK anymore.
None of that makes Bitwarden not open source. Not only that, they specifically state this is a bug which will be addressed.
I would go as far as to say that Bitwarden’s main competitive advantage and differentiation is that it’s open source. They would be insane to stop that.
None of that makes Bitwarden not open source.
Yes, it does, because it violates its own license GPLv3 by having proprietary build-/runtime dependencies.
If it was under a different, maybe more permissive, open source license, then maybe it would still be open source, but as of right now i likely breaks its own license terms.
Not only that, they specifically state this is a bug which will be addressed.
From what they state, they think that because executables that share internal information via standard protocols does somehow not break GPL3 terms compared to two libraries that share internal state via the standardized C ABI which does. And they seem to not consider that a bug, just the build-time dependency.
Sorry that’s my mistake - I should have said “source available”, rather than “open source”. IMO, being source available is the critical component of a password manager like Bitwarden, and is what I meant when I referred to their main competitive advantage.
They might also choose to be open source and fix this specific issue and return to GPL-compatibility, but remaining source available would seem to be the more critical factor.
So you meant to say:
I would go as far as to say that Bitwarden’s main competitive advantage and differentiation is that it’s source is available.
That is not true, there are a lot of other password management software out there where the client source code is either open source or source available. For instance keyguard: https://github.com/AChep/keyguard-app?tab=License-1-ov-file#readme which is an alternative proprietary bitwarden client, where the source is also available. Also the Proton Pass client is under GPLv3.
I would argue that the main advantage of bitwarden compared to others is that it is open source and has an open source server for self-hosting (vaultwarden). Which of course makes it difficult in terms of business strategy with their VC funding. But maybe becoming a non-profit org and getting money from donors, the strategic funds of EU and other governments, etc. might be an alternative way.
I’m not aware of any other enterprise password management where the server source is available and auditable. Proton certainly is not.
Uh oh. Android user here. Time to jump ship? If so…proton??
As with all of their services, the back-end is closed-source.
For the purposes of user freedom, it’s not that critical as the back-end merely facilitates the storage and synchronisation of encrypted data. This is different from the bitwarden case where they’re now including freedom disrespecting code into the most critical part of their software: the clients which handle the unencrypted data.
Fact of the matter remains however that Proton Pass restricts your freedom by not allowing you to self-host it.If you are fine with not being able to self-host, I’d say it’s a good option though. Doubly so if you are already a customer of their other services.
Proton has demonstrated time and time again to act for the benefit of its users in the past decade and I see no incentive for them to stop doing so. I’d estimate a low risk of enshittification for Proton which is high praise for a company of their size.
Laughs in keepassxc
i was about to replace my glorified encrypted text file for a password manager. guess relying on 3rd parties in a late-stage capitalist world is not a viable alternative.
ill stay with my encrypted text file until they privatize encryption. by then ill probably be carving my passwords out on stone. or burning down the servers of these fucking pigs trying to make us identify ourselves for everything on the internet now.
KeePassXC is pretty amazing. :)
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It’s basically your encrypted file, you are to handle synchronisation yourself.
I would assume so. According to the page Documentation and FAQ,
Why is there no cloud synchronization feature built into KeePassXC?
Cloud synchronization with Dropbox, Google Drive, OneDrive, ownCloud, Nextcloud etc. can be easily accomplished by simply storing your KeePassXC database inside your shared cloud folder and letting your synchronization service of choice do the rest. We prefer this approach, because it is simple, not tied to a specific cloud provider and keeps the complexity of our code low.
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Nobody here talks about keepassxc ? I’ve been using it for almost a decade, it can be used with sync tools to be shared, I’ve managed to have db keepass file opened on several computers and it did work well. Gplv3 here https://keepassxc.org/
Bitwarden can’t be compared to KeePassXC. Bitwarden is fundamentally built around a sync server, whereas KeePass is meant to exclusively operate locally. These are two very different fundamental concepts for, you know, how to actually store and access your passwords.
Store your database in a nextcloud instance and it’s that too
Nope. Since the entire database is contained in a single file, it can’t sync multiple edits properly, leading to sync conflicts. Because KeePass was built around local database files, whereas Bitwarden uses actual synced databases, where individual updates can be uploaded, instead of causing conflicts or overwriting the entire db.
Conflicts haven’t been an issue for years, all modern iterations of KeePass (XC, kp2a, DX) support automatically merging in the latest before saving.
I’ve been using it for years this way across several devices, it’s incredibly solid
Do you sync it across your devices using Syncthing? That’s what I’m thinking of doing.
I keep mine in a self hosted Nextcloud instance, DAV sync is built into the app
No Android app though?
Ty, exploring alternative tools. I really don’t like last pass due to their lax data security and 1 Password for the same reason.
Bitwarden still earns my $10/year.
No excuse to not look into it now. Hopefully it uses Android autofill.
It does support autofill
Testing it then will see if it passes the wife test for ease of use.
I just switched over. Honestly, I like it even more than Bitwarden. Then again, I don’t sync my stuff between devices because I’m old I guess. Lol. It makes it easier to switch because I don’t have to deal with stuff like Syncthing.
Keepass isn’t really in the same category of product as Bitwarden. The interesting part of bitwarden is that it’s ran as a service.
Apparently and according to Bitwardens post here, this is a “packaging bug” and will be resolved.
Update: Bitwarden posted to X this evening to reaffirm that it’s a “packaging bug” and that “Bitwarden remains committed to the open source licensing model.”
Let’s hope this is not just the PR compartment trying to make this look good.
I think even if they do reverse course or it was a genuine mistake, it’s easy to lose people’s trust forever, ESPECIALLY when it comes to something sensitive like storing ALL of your passwords.
How would the community’s reaction be if Bitwarden goes, “Look, we are moving more into the enterprise space, which means using proprietary software to service their needs. Our intention is to keep the enterprise and public versions sandboxed, but there is crossover, and we made a mistake.”? I really don’t care what they do in the enterprise space. Perhaps I’m an apologist, but seemingly more torn than most other posters.
@bitwarden bitwarden locked and limited conversation to collaborators
They also locked the thread 16 hours ago (as of writing this comment), with no explanation.
The explanation is the second-to-last comment before it got locked. 🤦
This hysteria is really stupid.
That’s the technical explanation for the changes, no an explanation for closing the discussion all together.
That “explanation” is unsatisfactory and likely wrong: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation
So they either have to license their SDK under a GPLv3 compatible license, or switch the license of their client to a non-GPL one.
Their “explaination” only mentions why they think can do it, but not why they are doing it.
That may or may not be the case, but the comment I replied to said they locked the thread with “no explanation”.
I would say a proper explanation includes the goal you want to achieve, not just the statement that you think that you are allowed to do something.
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Looks like I might be moving to Proton Pass after all! I’ll give them some time to see what they do about this, but will happily give my money to someone else and migrate friends/family as well.
I know little about Proton Pass, but how confident are you they don’t also use a proprietary SDK with their open source apps?
Proton pass client doesn’t currently use a proprietary SDK, but they also haven’t made the same blunder as Bitwarden, which they’ve since fixed, but still not a good look.
On another note - I did export/import all my passwords into proton pass and WOW the speed and UX feels so much better. I’m still sticking with Bitwarden as they’ve been really good so far, but there’s a real good alternative should they ever “turn evil”.
There’s a lot of drama in that Issue, and then, at the very end:
Thanks for sharing your concerns here. We have been progressing use of our SDK in more use cases for our clients. However, our goal is to make sure that the SDK is used in a way that maintains GPL compatibility.
the SDK and the client are two separate programs
code for each program is in separate repositories
the fact that the two programs communicate using standard protocols does not mean they are one program for purposes of GPLv3Being able to build the app as you are trying to do here is an issue we plan to resolve and is merely a bug.
Um can someone translate what this means?
They claim the SDK and Bitwarden are completely separate, so Bitwarden is still open source.
The fact that the current version of Bitwarden doesn’t work at all without the SDK is just a bug, which will be fixed Soon™
Also important to note is that they are creating the same license problems in other places.
They broke f-droid builds 3 months ago and try to navigate users to their own repo now. Their own repo ofc not applying foss requirements, because the android app is no longer foss as of 3 months ago. Now the f-droid version is slowly going out of date, which creates a nice security risk for no reason other than their greed.
Apparently they also closed-sourced their “convenient” npm Bitwarden module 2 months ago, using some hard to follow reference to a license file. Previously it was marked GPL3.
Iirc, once reported, the project has 30 days to remedy or they are in violation of the license. They can’t even release a new version with a different license since this version is out under the GPL.
Given that they own all of the source code (CLA is required to contribute), they can just stop offering the code under GPL, unless they happen to have any GPL dependencies not under their control, in which case this would not be viable.
Switching licenses to future versions doesn’t invalidate previous versions released under GPL.
I’m not a lawyer but I deal with OSS licenses for work and I don’t know if there’s ever been a case like this, that I can think of anyway.
Their previous versions, still being under the GPL, would require them to release a change to make it usable on desktops. Again, I’m not a lawyer here but there is a lot of case law behind the GPL and I think the user who made the issue could take them to court to force them to make the change if they don’t respond in 30 days.
It means previous versions remain open, but ownership trumps any license restrictions.
They don’t license the code to themselves, they just have it. And if they want to close source it they can.GPLv3 and copyleft only work to protect against non-owners doing that. CLA means a project is not strongly open source, the company doing that CLA can rugpull at any time.
The fact a project even has a CLA should be extremely suspect, because this is exactly what you would use that for. To ensure you can harvest contributions and none of those contributers will stand in your way when you later burn the bridges and enshittify.
What is CLA in this context?
Licensing the source as GPL doesn’t really force the copyright holder (which is 100% BitWarden due to their Contributors Agreement^*, no matter who contributed the code) to do anything - they are absolutely free to release binaries built on the same codebase as proprietary software without any mention of the GPL.
For example if I write a hello world terminal program, release its source code under GPLv3 and then build it and give the built binary to you (and a permission to use it), you cannot force me to give you the source code for that build because I never gave you a GPL licensed binary.
If you were to take my GPLv3 source code and distribute a build of it however, you would have to license your binaries under GPLv3, because that’s the terms of the license I provided the source code to you under. Your users would then have the right to request the source code of those binaries from you. And if you released the build under an incompatible license, I (but not the users) could sue you for violating my license.
Their previous versions, still being under the GPL, would require them to release a change to make it usable on desktops.
License violations are usually not resolved by making the violator comply retroactively, just going forward. And it’s the copyright holder (so BitWarden themselves) who needs to force the violator to comply.
^* this is the relevant part of the CA:
By submitting a Contribution, you assign to Bitwarden all right, title, and interest in any copyright in the Contribution and you waive any rights, including any moral rights or database rights, that may affect our ownership of the copyright in the Contribution.
It is followed by a workaround license for parts of the world where copyright cannot be given up.
.
They’re trying to argue legal technicalities because acknowledging that they’re trying to reduce compatibility with servers like vaultwarden would be bad PR.
Per their new license, anyone that uses their SDK to build a client cannot say, “this is for Bitwarden and compatible servers like vaultwarden”. They cannot support those other servers, per their license. Anyone that gets suckered into using their SDK now becomes a force against alternative implementations.
The main program is open, but the development tools are not
There is always a very vocal minority itching to cause as much drama as possible. It’s very discouraging to see in general. I agree with and want more FOSS, but I’m not sure I’d ever consider making it myself; it’s not worth extra stress personally.
plan to resolve
timeline unknown, maybe 2124
Thanks for sharing your concerns here. We have been progressing use of our SDK in more use cases for our clients. However, our goal is to make sure that the SDK is used in a way that maintains GPL compatibility.
- the SDK and the client are two separate programs
- code for each program is in separate repositories
- the fact that the two programs communicate using standard protocols does not mean they are one program for purposes of GPLv3
Being able to build the app as you are trying to do here is an issue we plan to resolve and is merely a bug.
I.e. “fuck you and your foss”
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Pretty much the opposite
I doubt it. What’ll probably happen is them moving more and more of the logic into the SDK (or adding the back-end of new features there), and leaving the original app to be more or less an agpl-licensed ui, while the actual logic becomes source-available. Soo, somewhat red-hat-esque vibes: no-no, we don’t violate no stupid licenses, we just completely go against their spirit.
go against their spirit
I think this is more of a failure of the license itself. It’s not a good look to allow something explicitly and then go “no not like that!”
I’m not sure you can classify this as a failure, as explicitly prohibiting interfacing with non-agpl stuff would greatly limit the amount of stuff you can license under it, perhaps up to the point of making it generally unusable. As for “not like that”… Well, yeah. But you can’t deny it’s misleading, right? Free software kinda implies you can modify it whatever you want, and if it’s a free ui relying on a source-available middleware… Turns out, not so much.
Although, a posdible solution would be require explicitly mentioning if you’re basically a front-end for something; but I’m not sure if it can be legally distinguished from the rest of use-cases.
Does anyone have experience with keyguard? From a cursory glance, this + vaultwarden seems like a good alternative…
I just tried it out and I’m amazed. It looks and feels just like 1Password, my absolute favorite password manager (before I switched to Bitwarden, because 1Password is proprietary and pretty expensive)
I definitely recommend it
License
The source code is available for personal use only.
That doesn’t really seem like an improvement, although do they say they’re planning on releasing it under the FSL.
Ah damn it -.-
Too bad, the app is really nice to use :/
It definitely has a nicer design and blends in well with the rest of the system (at least on Android)
I have some! I use a self hosted vaultwarden and just two days ago I saw and installed KeyGuard out of curiosity. So far, I can say KeyGuard is a nicer looking and feeling app and… it works. So as long as their intentions are pure, you can use “bitwarden” without using any of their software or infrastructure.
Just tried it, and it seems you can’t edit or add items without a premium subscription??
Or am I missing something?
Edit: Apparently only when installing via the Play Store. Very weird decision.
Ah, yeah, I installed it from their github with obtainium. I think open source/libre app that charges people to install with the play store is a model a few others have tried as well.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to be paid, but a mandatory subscription when using the most common install method does irk me the wrong way
I haven’t looked into it at all, but that just seems so strange. Who would pay that when the original Bitwarden app is still there for free? Most people who would even know about KeyGuard would know how to install it from somewhere else. Is it essentially a donation?
It would be if it’s a one-time payment, but it’s a yearly subscription, and not a cheap one!
Ever since BitWarden got mired in capitalism, I’ve been dreading that something like this would happen.
Dump it.
Move to something else.
This is how fuckery starts.
