Wait what? There’s no karma here?
How will I be a gazillionaire?
It would be interesting to have a poll on how many people really would want reddit-style karma on lemmy. I suspect it wouldn’t be that high
Yeah but it’s fun to feel superior by inventing a strawman.
I always found it cool to see my karma increase over the years from mostly commenting. I think I ended up with over 100k comment karma, but frankly I couldn’t give a shit about it here
The thing is Karma was largely about luck and community. I made a dirty joke that took 5 seconds to think of and wasn’t very funny and got 2000 upvotes because it was in a big thread. I later spent about 5 hours putting together a resource for a smaller community and got 200 upvotes. Almost zero correlation between karma and quality.
I mean… Since we can upvote posts and comments here, is it really that bad to tally up how many upvotes we’ve gathered over time? I don’t hate getting upvotes.
Yeah id imagine once you get to hundreds of comments it can be hard to count. But, for example, Wefwef (https://wefwef.app/) will count up the “comment score” on someones profile and show it. Id imagine others might do the same.
It’s not counted, it’s actually pulled directly from the API. This has been confirmed by the dev of Wefwef.
What I really want is a “Lemmy Enhancement Suite” with all (or most) of the additional options that RES provided.
In particular I’m missing keyboard navigation, custom post filters (or just hiding posts in general), and collapsing in-line images. Those would be really nice to have here.
Same
@[email protected] @[email protected] I made a keyboard navigation script here https://github.com/vmavromatis/Lemmy-keyboard-navigation
Nice! Thanks for sharing!
*It even collapses/expands images as you change posts! Perfect!
Oh Dear.
I’m so much happier without it. Having a big number next to your name is such a tired little ego trip
If any devs ever implement karma into Lemmy, I will shut down my subs and leave.
I mean that with 100% seriousness. Karma is one of the most evil concepts ever conceived in the history of the internet. It brings out the darkness in a motherfucker.
I think kbin has a form of karma. If they do implement it it would be on a per-instance basis. Meaning it probably won’t matter for appealing to the greater fediverse.
Excuse me if I’m just dense, but when I look at peoples profiles in wefwef, it shows me their comment score and post score.
Is that somehow different from what Karma was?
That’s probably a good reason not to use Wefwef 🤦
Here, your comments can be upvoted and downvoted, but it’s purposefully not totaled and kept separate from your profile. I don’t know why the devs of that app decided to total them all together – that total is your karma and people did tie their self-worth and their social standing to their karma. It’s what made Reddit so toxic
We all better go say something to the Wefwef devs and make them take that shit off
Kbin has a total reputation score, but it’s broken and pretty much meaningless. Downvotes will subtract reputation, but upvotes don’t add to it, only “boosts” do. While I had perpetually negative reputation from that, I didn’t mind, but as soon as it went positive from a single highly-boosted comment, I immediately started dropping back into old mentalities.
Guess switching over to Lemmy to use Boost might not have been such a bad thing.
Wefwef is based off of Apollo. Apollo had a karma counter, and so does wefwef.
yeah. Karma was really bad when you happened to say something that was either misunderstood or maybe a valid oppinion but against the population of the sub. I dared to say that men and women differ in some life-experiences around puberty in BadGirlsAnatomy once… They took that as if I was invalidating their experiences somehow… holy cow the downvotes!
Karma made me feel those downvotes, because they had some permanent impact on my overall profile, so I never dared to discuss anything in that sub ever again, leading to bubbles. I ain’t wanting that back.
Karma gave a way of guaging people reputation - if you were negative karma, because each negatively voted post only counted for a minimum of -10 additional karma, it was easy to tell if the majority of posts on a user profile were negatively geared.
Now with Lemmy, in order to tell this, you actually have to look at the posts and comments, which means you have more chances of reading them and gaining context as to why they seem to be such a contrarian.
It inherently leads to less judgement simply because it’s not as bleedingly obvious how bad someone’s comments are. Which in turn, leads to a better feel to the community and less dogpiling.
Also it gives people a greater chance to make a “come back” - they may go through a negative streak, but because people don’t discount their opinions simply because of karma score they can more easily climb out of the negative spiral as people less people will look, and those who do only look at the most recent comment scores.
Positivity breeds positivity, likewise negativity breeds negativity, often faster than positivity.
OK so I’m not crazy, this is basically just karma then, yeah? Just like “client side calculated” (I’m assuming at least, if Lemmy doesn’t have native support for a concept like karma) karma lol
Yep, wefwef karma seems to be client side. I have it too on my wefwef.
Edit: Am wrong, see response from developer below.
Wefwef dev here, it’s not calculated client side. post and comment score is in the api response of every user.
I actually had no idea the Lemmy web client doesn’t display this when I implemented in wefwef
Damn, I didn’t know that. Wefwef is the best PWA I have used to date though, nice work!
Can we have a talk about that? Please for the love of all that is holy, don’t actually display karma scores in wefwef. Please. :(
Imo both sides of this argument are way overblown. If Karma scores affected you that much, positively or negatively, you should be taking a long break from social media and having a chat with a counsellor.
I don’t mean that as an insult, it really is the kind of thing that only matters if you’ve gone so far terminally online that it’s seriously affecting your mental health.
I always thought there was some merit to it, like, indicative of someone’s history in engagement on a platform, no?
I get that it becomes less and less meaningful as people farm it, but there is there no balancing point?
I think people grossely overestimate what people did “for karma”.
Bots farm karma to seem like legitimate users and bypass min-karma rules.
Real users didn’t give a shit about the little karma number aside from the fact it told them their stuff got a lot of attention. It could have been a circle with a color gradient and people would have used it as a measure of success anyway.
People are still going to farm here because they want the attention, it doesn’t matter what the measure is (comment count, updoots wtv)
But it affects my experience on the platform, even if I don’t care about it myself. When people make posts and comments for the karma and not because they think their input is useful then the platform will suck.
Hard agree, I’m here for information, not to see how much karma a user has, plus I feel karma systems encourage bots. If a karma system is introduced, I will leave for a platform that doesn’t have that kind of karma thing
I hope that this will never be a thing lol. Most annoying “feature” of reddit
It’s my karma and I want it now!
I’ve been pondering the concept of Reddit “karma,” and I believe it’s time for a serious discussion about its true nature and the impact it has on our communities. I’ve written multiple posts about this previously here on kbin (https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/95140/Dearest-developers-Stop-reinventing-the-wheel) with very mixed results in the engagement. Though I am still working on refining the argument.
While the idea behind karma is to provide users with a reputation score or social credit, I’ve noticed that it doesn’t necessarily align with those intentions. Instead, it often serves as a reinforcement for users to stay within their comfort zones and echo chambers, stifling diverse perspectives and constructive dialogue.
One of the main issues I’ve observed is the tendency for downvoting to occur when a user expresses an opinion that goes against the prevailing sentiment within a particular community. Even if the opinion is well-thought-out, respectful, and contributes to meaningful conversations, it becomes a target for downvotes. This behavior discourages users from engaging or expressing differing viewpoints.
It’s disheartening to witness how users can manipulate the system out of spite. Some individuals go as far as visiting other users’ profiles and downvoting their past posts to deliberately lower their karma score. This kind of behavior further emphasizes how the current karma system is more of a reflection of how often a user participates in echo chambers that align with their views, rather than an accurate measure of their quality engagement or contribution to the community.
With that in mind, I propose that we reconsider the name of the point system to better reflect its actual usage. Here are a few alternative names that encapsulate the behavior we often see:
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Echo Chamber Score: Highlighting the tendency to reward users who stick to echo chambers and discourage exploration of different perspectives.
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Bias Points: The system measures a user’s inclination to conform to specific biases or ideological groups.
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Conformity Score: The score reflects a user’s adherence to the prevailing opinions within specific communities, rather than their engagement.
I believe a change in the name would serve as a wake-up call for the community, highlighting the importance of open-mindedness and respectful discourse. It would encourage users to think beyond their echo chambers and engage in meaningful conversations, even if they hold different opinions.
I’ve previously discussed how it would be more beneficial to leave the rep system in place, but keep the scores hidden to everyone besides the user of that profile. Another thing to think about is the way Steam has a rep system regarding VAC Bans. Instead of banning a profile completely, just some big red text on their profile noting which game or community there were banned from and how often.
I’m eager to hear your thoughts on this matter. What are your suggestions for improving the system to foster more open and constructive dialogue?
I don’t think downvotes do anything. I don’t think negative reputation scores represent much more than a user’s inability to engage prosocially in any environment, and those users should just be referred to admins. So, I think downvotes should be left in the rear view mirror.
Instead, I think we should replace upvotes with two actions: 1) A ‘favourite’ action, which could be a single, mod- (at the community level) or admin-defined icon, or maybe even user chosen emote reactions, and 2) a ‘helpful’ or ‘interesting’ action. This would allow uses to differentiate between things they find interesting or helpful, and things they just enjoy, and it would give an extra dimension to use in sorting posts and comments.
If we want to attach any kind of reputation score to a user (and I’m not convinced that we should), then we can consider having aggregate breakdowns of those different point pools. Which instances did those points come from? Which communities? If a user has 80,000 points but they all come from c/ElonForGodEmperor, that tells you something significant about how you might want to weight those points.
I’m already disheartened after a single day because I did in fact engage in a thoughtful discourse but was summarily reprimanded. I was hoping this environment would be different than the echo chamber that was Reddit.
As far as I can tell your comments were downvoted for either:
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playing into the “both sides are the same” narrative that there isn’t much patience for anymore, especially after Roe being struck down and the decision on Student Loan forgiveness this morning.
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coming across as concern trolling for right wing extremists. I’m not accusing you of actually doing that, but a couple of your downvoted comments conforn to retorical devices that white supremesist groups commonly use. Looking at your profile I think it was just genuine ignorance on your part, but that’s the reason.
In general, there are so many bad actors online that hide behind “just wanting to have a discussion” that people have lost patience with it. I’ve been seeing that sort of rhetoric my entire life used as a way to trojan horse advocacy for things like barring gay couples from having the same rights as straight couples, defending racism – not even just racist policies, but straight up “black people are all thugs” racism – taking away women’s rights to choose their own medical care, allowing trans people to exist at all. The list goes on and on. I’ve just totally lost patience with it, and I’m not alone.
When 9/10 people who “just want to have a discussion” use that discussion to spread misinformation, gaslight, gishgallop, and make false equivalences, eventually you become wary of anyone who opens up a dialog that way.
Blame Ben Shapiro, that was his bad faith weapon of choice and it caught on.
Your comment clearly demonstrates your own bias. You are engaging in what is known as collective punishment or collective blame, unjustly punishing or mistreating individuals who may not have been involved in any wrongdoing, simply because they hold different beliefs or opinions than you and your group. This approach completely disregards the principles of individual responsibility and fairness, ignoring their individual actions and intentions.
Until an individual user posts racist or hateful speech, they deserve either the discussion they are looking for or, if you don’t have anything constructive to say, ignore them and don’t say anything at all.
It is crucial for you to recognize and acknowledge your bias, as it undermines the credibility and objectivity of your argument. By allowing it to dictate your actions, you are not fostering a constructive environment for discussion. You aren’t considering their merit or engaging in meaningful dialogue.
It’s important to remember that a person can hold bigoted views even if they actively advocate for social justice. Prejudiced or intolerant views towards a particular group of people, regardless of whether they are based on race, religion, gender, or any other factor, are equally unacceptable.
Remember, it is important to approach discussions with an open mind, respecting the diversity of opinions and perspectives. Only by doing so can we create an environment conducive to productive conversations and the exchange of ideas. Otherwise, we might as well create echo chamber magazines for everything. As an example, instead of “Politics” we’ll need Left Politics, Right Politics, Center Politics, Top Left Politics, Top Right Politics, Bottom Left Politics, Bottom Right Politics… etc.
I generally used to believe in that precept, that you should approach every debate with an open mind, and engage with anyone willing to debate you. But as I’ve grown older, I’ve realized that, while nice in a vacuum, that code is naive. It presumes that the person across from you is engaging in good faith.
As we navigate this new phenomenon of social media, we as a society are beginning to grapple with a few problems:
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It is easier to spread misinformation than it is to combat it.
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The Rhetoric of ‘reasonable’ discussion can be easily co-opted by bad actors to spread misinformation.
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When you engage with a bad actor, you amplify their voice.
So when you get people talking about vaccines not working, or black people being inherently more likely to commit crimes, or blah blah blah, engaging with that in good faith runs the risk of just amplifying that message. I’m not really sure what the answer to it is. Like, I don’t think the Nazi’s would have been stopped by more reasonable discussion, and we are at an inflection point in this country where we are having similar discussions over trans rights.
I don’t think “always keep an open mind and engage in good faith” holds up when one side consistently and systematically exploits weaknesses in that philosophy to spread misinformation and bigotry.
Lastly, I hit the downvote button on comments that contain misinformation, not as a bid to punish the commenter, but as a way to push falsehoods lower in the chain so good information can float to the top. If there is a discussion about trans rights and the top comment is “I’m just against kids getting life altering surgery”, then that gets a downvote, because kids aren’t allowed to get gender reassignment surgery, and the comment gives the false impression that they are, and that’s what’s being debated. It doesn’t really matter if the person is engaging in good faith or not. Bad information is bad information, and it should be pushed to the bottom or removed before it spreads erroneously.
Lastly, I hit the downvote button on comments that contain misinformation, not as a bid to punish the commenter, but as a way to push falsehoods lower in the chain so good information can float to the top.
Feel free to point out the misinformation and falsehoods in my previous comment, which you downvoted. LMFAO. Talks in circles, blatantly lies, provides no evidence… Sounds like a spineless leftists.
I understand the repetitive reasoning behind your perspective. However, the problem lies in your understanding, or lack there of, of misinformation.
Who do you propose is the arbiter of what qualifies as fact or fiction? Because you make it sound like you are qualified to know everything about everything with your ability to downvote… Or, do you think which ever argument is the most convincing to you, that’s who is obviously correct…? Or are you more simple than even that and think, “this information is on TV so it MUST be correct!”
When you have a thousand qualified professionals saying the same thing, yet another thousand qualified professionals saying the opposite, what then becomes misinformation, disinformation, or malinformation? Are you still wearing a cloth mask outdoors and getting your boosters?
I love how everybody throws around comparisons to fascism and Nazis these days. We could focus on the left or the right and easily create a list of all the things we’ve done that was similar to things Nazis did. It really isn’t hard to do…
During World War II, Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which led to the forced relocation and internment of around 120,000 Japanese Americans.
Under the Democratic administrations of Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson, the FBI’s Counterintelligence Program (COINTELPRO) targeted various political groups, including civil rights activists, anti-war organizations, and socialist and communist groups.
The Democratic administration of President Woodrow Wilson used the Espionage Act of 1917 to suppress dissent during World War I. The act was employed to prosecute individuals who criticized the war effort, including socialists, pacifists, and anarchists.
Democrat Bill Clinton invoked executive privilege to withhold information in various investigations, including the Whitewater controversy and the Monica Lewinsky scandal.
Democratic President Barack Obama faced criticism for the use of drone strikes and the extensive use of executive orders.
The Democratic administration of President Barack Obama faced criticism for its continuation and expansion of surveillance programs, such as the National Security Agency’s mass surveillance programs revealed by whistleblower Edward Snowden.
We could talk about how Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, continued and expanded the “War on Drugs” policies. Which disproportionately affected minority communities and led to mass incarceration, raising concerns about civil liberties and racial inequality…
Good old “Drug War Joe”.
one side consistently and systematically exploits weaknesses in that philosophy to spread misinformation and bigotry.
Or you know, we could accept the facts that both sides are similarly as evil as the other. Instead of just pointing fingers and creating more disinformation.
For anyone keeping score at home this is exactly the sort of thing I’m taking about. Like, this comment hits pretty much all of the general devices I outlined.
I’m honestly kind of thankful to you for providing such a clear and illustrative example. Gratz.
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Honestly I don’t mind the upvote and downvote system but i don’t want reddit replicated.
At this point, I reckon no one on Lemmy wants Reddit replicated in any shape or form…
As a recent refugee, if there was a carbon copy of reddit owned by some sort of non profit organization or funded by public money I would most definitely use that. Provided of course the monetization crap and ads were removed and I can have my Apollo app back.
Nothing wrong with this new federated direction we are taking now, but what made reddit shitty is corporate greed and an infantile moron as decisionmaker, not that it was centralized.
If you want an Apollo style Lemmy app, I would wholeheartedly recommend wefwef. It looks just like Apollo but it uses Lemmy instead of Reddit.
I already installed it yesterday, good suggestion. It looks and feels 99% like Apollo, only that it’s a bit sluggish here and there (though that’s probably just a matter of time until optimized). For anyone missing their Apollo app this is the thing to get.
Personally, I like “points.” It makes it like a game. I want the high score.
I like seeing the points on individual comments and posts. I don’t really care about my account total.
Former redditor here. Never gave a crap about karma. Just here to laugh at funny Internet things.
I never understood the point of it anyways. I mean it’s cool to see that your post is popular but the total karma seems pointless. I used to make a new account about once a year anyways and that would obviously reset my karma aswell and I didn’t even give it half a thought
Hard no
Upvoting posts is fine, but Karma I can do without. Back on Reddit sometimes I help somebody with something and I get maybe 3 or 4 Karma. Make a stupid joke in a popular Thread and get that hundred fold. Karma is useless.
I wouldn’t mind some sort of rating scale at least, but nothing infinitely growing like reddit karma.
I found the karma useful to see if someone had a relatively well used account, was a karma farming bot, a shit poster, a lurker, or an asshole.
Maybe just a scale to determine an accounts total relative ratio of upvotes to down votes?
I’m sorry to anyone that needs internet points to feel good
I feel good about my StackOverflow points… but the Karma from Reddit means nothing to me.
StackOverflow points are actually useful, you can post your profile in your resume, it’s a talking point for an interview. Reddit karma is just an epeen measuring contest.
“I just saw you were pretty active on /r/gonewild during the Covid period, how did it help you grow as an interesting candidate for this position ?”
