if you eat animals, your opinion isn’t valid
Ooh, gatekeeping for the omnivores and carnivores.
Guess I’m glad that checks notes cats, dogs, owls, cheetahs, and most of the Animal Kingdom don’t have thoughts that are valid?
Idk, do they? I don’t think vegans care about animals’ opinions (that they don’t have bc they’re animals)
This is about reducing unnecessary suffering. The animals you mentioned hunt out of necessity. We have alternatives that don’t require hurting other beings.
I hear you.
Counterpoint: animals may very well have thoughts on this, but we will likely never know because there is not a common ground for exchanging thoughts between [an overwhelming majority] of species.
I can’t quantify the number of times I’ve seen animals hunt others out of what amounts to an observed potential of either instinct or boredom: it may seem contrite, but domesticated cats hunting mice. They will play with mice, toy with them when the mice are clearly half-dead, and stop playing with them out of boredom when the mice can no longer move. Almost for sport. This is an observed behaviour that may be a byproduct of their domestication, but it gives credence to the fact that its not all for survival.
I’m not justifying the hunting of animals for profit; I am in the camp of thought that its a horrible practice. The same goes for hunting endangered animals. However, to hunt animals for food is not an unjust practice. That’s how we homo sapiens get a good amount of protein (though I do concede that there are also plenty of other ways to do so). It is historically encoded into human existence.
AFAIK cats cats play with their prey not for fun but in order to tire it out.
I think that cruelty and sadism are human inventions and we inflict them on animals on an industrial scale. I believe this comes from hierarchy and domination present in our society, not from instinct.
Don’t read up on dolphins or seals then. Cruelty and sadism exist in other animals. Humans are just better at it.
I mean lions don’t have an instinct to control and dominate a herd… Wait.
And cats very often don’t eat their prey, they like humans lol for the “fun”…
It is important to note here how well-indoctrinated the US and Europe are to “point the finger” and absolve responsibility…
We don’t refer to stuff as “deforestation,” we call it “urban planning” or “development.”
We don’t talk about “poaching,” we just accept that farmers and the agriculture industry finds natural predators inconvenient, so we allow them to kill off coyotes, foxes, mountain lions, etc.We have just as many people doing similar, but for some reason we’re only taught to lose our minds over conservation elsewhere, in the places where the US intentionally destabilizes (with Europe) to keep prices low for us. After all, it’s what our economies are built upon: ruin everywhere, so we can call ourselves the heroes for killing off indigenous folks to areas just for the crime of living and wanting things to feel fair.
Check yourself. This isn’t “the way”
Well, that’s naive and misinformed. And also irrelevant; endangered species are too important to the environment for poor people to justify killing them off to buy food. Poor people have agency and therefore responsibility for their actions too. Your stance is both anti-environment and anti-working class.
We can and should help the poor in ways that don’t involve absolving them of responsibility for driving endangered species extinct.
Well articulated. We can’t absolve people of responsibility just because they are poor, unless we absolve them of all responsibity and treat them like children, and put the ones who have no caregivers in a foster care system. I’m fairly certain nobody wants that.
Yes, I am aware poverty is not something you can just wish away, but they know what they’re doing. Same as the people illegally cutting down forests in Eastern Europe. They’re also poor but they’re also assholes. They also have a penchant for shooting people who try to stop them. Pretty sure them rhino poachers would do bad stuff to anybody getting in their way as well.
white good other bad
That’s exactly it: we’re taught “white good; everyone/everything else bad” and it seeps into our conservation and environmentalism efforts, getting spun into a tizzy about what happens in the Amazon or Africa, but, telling-ly, not really having the same depth and strength of emotions for wildlife conservation at home.
Ah, the Hogwarts Legacy approach
Average Hogwarts student: Charms homework is so difficult, but later we’re going to prank that annoying ravenclaw by putting slugs in his hat lol.
HL Protagonist: If I can group these goblins and dark wizards together, I can kill a dozen of them with a single killing curse. Excellent!
I know a well-connected resort liaison in South Africa. This is what happens on game reserves with predators/scavengers, nature has a way of cleaning up the evidence.
We could reduce the numbers of Nazis like this as well. All in favour?
What if I told you that’s what the Nazis did to people they didn’t like…
They did breathe as well, what’s your solution to that?
They built trains too so I guess we’d better rip up the train tracks
Then I’d laugh and dismiss you
Here, watch:
😄😂🤣
Ohh wow you are very smart
Oh were not simping for Nazis on Lemmy any time soon. Twitter is that way -->
Now compare the reasons why for not liking them
This will go, just fine
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/O_q12qYrCN0
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Ought to disable Piped bot til it’s fixed. The videos don’t play. Google API shenanigans.
Eh I always upvote him anyway, he’s working the best he can!
Aye
Have them poached for their horns and tusks? 🤔
The lower horn of those Nazis is worthless, it barely counts as an aphrodisiac.
Not even L’rrr would touch the stuff
I, for one, fully support this development.
Me, too! It’s epic
While I like the idea of every poacher being neutralised, I also understand that the “poach police” may intentionally/inadvertently kill innocents with their blanket immunity; plus many poachers may be poor af hired-guns that aren’t the actual source or root cause for the market, and may not dent the trade at all… Hope I’m wrong.
I also understand that the “poach police” may intentionally/inadvertently kill innocents with their blanket immunity;
Is there any evidence that that has been happening? (This article is from 2017, and it mentions “more than 20” poachers being killed in 2015, but doesn’t mention any non-poachers being killed, which it seems it would have, given it’s talking about the downsides.)
While I agree that taking the fight to the people financing the poaching, reducing the number of poachers - and providing a very clear disincentive for other “poor af” hired-guns to take up the mantle - could still help.
Personally, I don’t think any implied sanctity of human life extends to people who are killing endangered animals for profit.
American police
We don’t really have poaching here in the states though.
ICE says otherwise.
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I did not expect so many upvoted poacher sympathizers in this thread. I am disappointed.
Poachers aren’t poor. They make assloads of money off their illegitimate trade. They have plenty of skills that could be put to profitable use elsewhere. They simply choose poaching because it is more profitable.
Poachers need to be destroyed on sight.
Could this method be used to reduce illegal homelessness too ?
Oh wait, I saw your other comment, you’re doing a satire. Carry on.
How do you know it’s not the other one that is satire ?
Maybe just say it out loud if you don’t think the state should exterminate undesirables on sight. You know, just to be sure.
The dude’s literqlly got autism in his name, calm down
Vile
Death penalty for being poor? Psychopath.
For being unprofitable, which is even worse !
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I mean, this is not really a solution. Poachers don’t do what they do because they’re greedy and hate animals, they do it because they’re poor and have often no other choice but to risk their lives to make a living, and they are probably getting something like 10$ per rhino horn. This is a systematic problem perpetually reinforced by the actual people we should be shooting: the millionaires who hire the poachers. They are the ones destroying the environment, exploiting animals and people and reselling those same rhino horns for ridiculous amounts of money on the black market.
ridiculous amounts of money on the black market
Exactly. These aren’t impoverished farmers doing what’s necessary to live in some semblance of comfort. They’re greedy SOBs who don’t give a rip about anything other than riches. They don’t deserve sympathy.
we should be shooting: the millionaires who hire the poachers
Damn, I was looking forward to eating them. :(
But you’re entirely right. Obviously the poachers do the hunting, but there are people rich enough out there that put a price on rhinos to begin with, they are the real problem. They wouldn’t be hunted if there was no incentive.
Nah, we of the working class and impoverished are partly responsible for the situation we’re in, because we’re too busy playing the system instead of fighting back like we were supposed to be doing. The result is this: people wiping out popular and beloved species just to get crumbs from their masters. How disgusting.
Then they should be stealing from the rich. Not killing endangered species.
And at ~ $20000 USD/kg for African and ~400000 USD/kg for Asian, and them not taking the meat. Its definitely for profit and not survival.
It’s simple math, if you kill animals and get caught you get one maybe up to 10 years in prison. If you kill/steal from a millionaire you get lifetime of troubles and jail and possibly put your family in danger too.
Well, it appears trying to kill an Asian Rhino in India is much more dangerous than robbing the rich.
Or did you miss the part that they are killing the poachers?
“I missed the part where that’s my problem” -Bully Maguire
Poachers don’t do what they do because they’re greedy and hate animals, they do it because they’re poor and have often no other choice but to risk their lives to make a living,
Well, they’re risking their lives, they’re losing them in the gamble. No one owes you winning a gamble.
This is a systematic problem perpetually reinforced by the actual people we should be shooting: the millionaires who hire the poachers
Not saying we don’t, I’m all in for shooting a millionaire myself; but that doesn’t detract from still needing to kill the poachers: we can’t leave the reservoires and wild habitats unguarded merely to kill one or two twitter twats, so the job of millionaire killer we have to give to someone else.
Exactly, the real solution would be the west allowing disadvantaged countries to develop a functional and stable local economy that provides people with better ways out of poverty than poaching endangered animals.
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Honestly, this is the biggest thing that sets off my 👁 senses whenever some version of this post goes around. It squicks me out in the same way as the “Somali pirates OWNED” genre of content that was popular a while back. Stuff that encourages and socially conditions us us to cheer the killing of people who’s have been brought to this point by hostile economic conditions.
I mean, pirates aren’t just smashing and grabbing diamonds out the store. They’re holding actual workers hostage while the executives are on some yacht, so I don’t really care one way or another about them. But the whole “killing poachers” shit is greenwashing nonsense that not only allow vigilante murders, but also victimize random people who have nothing to do with poaching because when you put out a flier recruiting killers, you don’t get the most stable people
Poverty hardly justifies crime. It is a cause not a justification. They are still poachers doing illegal hunting for protected animal on protected land. Also poaching is rather lucrative, even if the government raises income 200% poaching will still stand out.
Poverty does justify crimes. When you need to eat, killing a rhino not so bad.
I hate this mentality where poverty crimes are evil but any rich guy destroying the lives of millions of people through financial schemes or to make a better profit are considered almost like good guys. This is completely fucked up.
There is a broad spectrum of crimes, from stealing an apple to mass murder other people. When you decide to steal food from the supermarket to feed your family it is justified. Hunting… I don’t know… deer or hogs is justified so they can feed their family. But picking a very lucrative business and say you are doing it coz of poverty is kinda fucked. Just for clarity: I’m not agreeing with gunning these people down.
No, stealing is justified. Not wiping out endangered species. Morality is complex and there is nuance in this discussion.
So if they are poor and eradicating a species off the face of the planet, then they should get a pass? They have the equipment and skills to hunt non-endangered animals which would provide food for themselves and their family. Excess meat could likely be traded or sold. Poaching is not a crime of necessity.
The problem is that under Indian law, hunting non-endangered species such as deer and rabbit is just as illegal (most of the time).
And if they were hunting non-endangered species for food, then I would be outraged by a lethal response, but that’s not the case here.
My point is that the forest laws and forest departments in India are set up to criminalise tribals whatever they do. Most of the rules date to the British era, when the government wanted to protect game animals from the tribals and farmers. So when tribals, who have been hunting boar and other common animals for thousands of years, are suddenly told that hunting for food is a crime, they have no option but to break the rules. Now they have a choice - keep hunting boar and deer every week and risk arrest each time, or kill a rhino and get enough money to last a few years. If we could relax the laws on hunting common species, I expect to see rhino poaching go down automatically. Some Indian states have more liberal hunting laws (for tribals) than others, and in those places you do see reductions in human-animal conflict.
If you don’t want to take my word for this, or would like to read more, I would suggest the last two sections of An Ecological History of India by Prof. Madhav Gadgil and Ram Guha.
I am happy to take your word for most of it, but it does not change my view. I am completely in favor of identifying and taking steps to remediate the underlining cause of all forms of crime rather than simply punishing violators. That being said, the hubris that an individual, or group of individuals supercedes the survival of an entire species is repugnant to me. I have no sympathy for anybody that actively contributes to the the extinction of another species (except mosquitos).
The one point of your argument that I do question is the “kill a rhino and get enough money to last a few years” claim. While I have not looked into the details in India, as I understand it, poachers in Africa can make roughly the equivalent of an average 1 month salary for killing 1 rhino. If, in India, they make enough money to last a few years than either poachers are almost exclusively first timers, which seems highly unlikely to me, or they are doing it for greed rather than survival, which would negate your argument of the restrictive hunting laws.
What if we shoot the wealthy people buying the horns instead? Wouldn’t that be better? I think so.
It’s like fighting drugs by arresting the last guy in the chain selling the stuff in the street.
But it’s always easier to blame and punish the poor guy at the end of the food chain.
You are using 2 different analogies that contradict each other. The poachers are cultivating a product, similar to poppy and coca plants, not the street dealers, and the wealthy are the buyers / “users”.
Do you really think the poachers surrounded by wild animals that can kill them and ‘animal loving’ deaths squads are living lavishly and eating lobster and steak dinners?
This is all relative. Their paychecks are nothing compared to what people have in the west, they are not eating lobster. Its like you get 1 usd a day for manual labor or 100 usd for a single rhino shot. So the difference is multiple fold. They know what are they getting into. It’s like someone asks you to sell coke. You know you will get easy money and you know the risks as well.
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yeah no if I can feed my starving family by killing some animal I would take that in a heartbeat. In contrast, if I can work in a factory and make enough to live decently I’m not going into the woods to try and kill something that can kill me back and risking getting into trouble with the law. Have fun in perfect actor land where you live though.
They can choose to hunt deer or I don’t know monkey to feed their family or even steal food. All justified. Poaching is extremely lucrative. Its like saying I’m robbing my sixth bank because I’m poor. They are not eating the rhino. I’m not OK with gunning these people but it is a shit act even if you are poor
Like yeah it’s a bad thing to do, but I can see why someone might do it once to try and set their family up. Yes they should be stopped and punished, but should we personally hold them in contempt? There’s definitely better off people involved with it, fuck them, and fuck the shit heads who are making the market.
One side is hunting animals.
The other is murdering humans.
Even beginning to equivocate this is insane.
Poacher spotted. 🎯
Oh, are you fantasizing about murdering me right now?
You’re an eco fascist.
Murder freak
This is the way.
You know humans are animals… right?
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Yes, no matter how rich you are, sleeping under a bridge is illegal and immoral ! Shoot on sight !
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Holy shit, a false equivalency from the left. About as rare as a shiny Mew yet here we are
Hunting is perfectly normal and has been a key to human survival since the dawn of man. It’s suddenly immoral because some capitalist country said so?
Rethink what crime is.
There’s a bit of a difference between hunting a gazelle for its meat and another for poaching an endangered rhino for its horn.
Because otherwise rich people won’t get to see them on safari.
No animal life is inherently more valuable than one another. The concept is absurd and so full of contradictions.
I’m not about to cheer the violent murder of a human being to preserve a fucking safari.
Nah fuck humans. The worst animals of them all. I wont advocate violence but I wont shed a tear over a dead poacher nor rich horn buyers. Humans can just make more humans, with ease. Rhinos aint never called me bad names. Im im the Rhinos corner.
Yes, the gazelle can feed your family for a week, the rhino horn can feed them for a year.
Dead poacher doesn’t need food.
Eco fascist drivel.
You’ll be cheering when they start killing climate refugees in a couple decades
“Crossing the border is illegal!!!”
Yes, this is why financial crimes and financial crime laws don’t exist in rich countries!! Oh…
no, fuck murder.
Don’t get me wrong, fuck poachers, but murder is never the solution, it just breeds escalated violence.
That’s a terrible and quite frankly untrue take
Actually they tried the normal way, where they didn’t shoot and asked the poachers to surrender / tried to arrest them. But the rangers would get shot and the animals would continue to get poached.
Seeing this as a problem, a new executive order / law was passed allowing shoot at sight orders at national parks / protected zones.
Poaching has reduced, the number of rangers getting shot has reduced. The number of poachers getting shot has reduced (they don’t wanna fuck around anymore).
Overall it has increased peace.
It’s not murder, it’s legal punishment. The poachers use gun violence against rangers, so it’s a reasonable escalation.
It clearly says “on sight”
You don’t want to wait for them to shoot first, you just want to murder them.
No society on earth considers shooting on sight to be legal punishment
Murder is bad, but humans are the problem. And humans being stupid chaotic creatures, it often devolves in to dirty things like killing. You can say all you want about right and wrong but this is a messy situation and this is the solution they have been forced in to using, after trying the peaceful method for years
Endangered-animal lives are much more precious to me than humans-who-are-willing-to-murder-endangered-animals lives, so I disagree.
What a great way to gun down any random civilian without proof of any wrongdoing. Just say they were poaching!
Yeah that’s not how it works. Random citizens don’t traipse around the bush hunting for rhinos and elephants and such.
I am more alluding to the risk of collateral
Begun, the rhino wars have
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If we don’t protect the planet, it will kill us.
See: recent orca war.
I wasn’t there to see them but I can imagine the star trek memes surrounding that were pretty quality
Make a meme, the orcas are still trying to destroy boats!
Orca what?
Orcas have been attacking boats recently. Or it’s been reported more recently. Either way, they’re taking back their (wet) streets.
see: the farming industry
