- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
Martial law is dictatorship anyone who advocates for it under any circumstances is an enemy of freedom
Not really. It’s good for a while when the freedoms of your country are being attacked by another country. It’s a way to get a country to be put on pause while military issues are being handled and everybody is supposed to work together in unison. What it’s not good for is to use it on local opponents or your own people. So just like any other weapon or tool it should be used correctly by people with good intentions. That’s what it’s there for anyways. Almost every country has a form of martial law.
You are talking exactly like a dictator. Freedom is not something you give to people and take away when needed. A switch to take freedom away shouldn’t exist and whoever press it is attacking freedom themself.
Almost every country has a form of martial law.
Almost every country is a police state rooted in murder and violence ruled by corrupted politicians.
You should really learn more about what exactly makes a country because unconditional freedom does not exist. You are part of a country that has laws and a bunch of freedoms. Those freedoms exist because other laws protect it.
Almost every country is a police state rooted in murder and violence ruled by corrupted politicians.
I do not deny that a lot of countries are becoming very authoritarian. But martial law is just a tool, which can be used for good but also for bad. In this case it doesn’t seem to be a good reason, but that does not mean it’s a bad thing by itself.
You should really learn more about what exactly makes a country
I encourage you to do the same and learn the history of how your country come to be.
But martial law is just a tool, which can be used for good but also
Name one time it was used for good
Lmao.
Last time was when Nazi Germany invaded my country.
This is what happened last time Nazi Germany invaded mine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_resistance_movement
“Their ranks were gradually increased by the influx of young men escaping the Italian Social Republic’s draft, as well as from deserters from the RSI armed forces. By August 1944, the number of partisans had grown to 100,000, and it escalated to more than 250,000 with the final insurrection in April”
I didn’t ask.
So, you can’t accept the idea that in very specific circumstances it can be a good thing for cops to tell you to do something without having to reach for a court order? Like an emergency evacuation order that needs to be secret during that very same hour for whatever good reason or the checkpointing of people in a region where you know that a major prison break just happened?
Not talking about the random pig just thinking “hmm, I’m the boss now” out of nowhere; I’m talking about someone like the head of the police forces giving an order indiscriminately that is limited to a temporal scope.
Even things like “masks are mandatory” can be seen as a “muh freedoms” violation.
If you take things to such extremes, can we have the freedom not to have such freedom? Apparently is what the entire world wants except for a few thousand internet folks
I can’t tell if these kind of comments in support of human rights being curtailed in secret are honest. There are already protocols in place for many jurisdictions that permit declarations of emergency in different contexts - like an environmental disaster. Many of these Emergency protocols are subjected to strict application and review.
Police are expected to train and learn the conditions that should exist when exercising commands to members of the public - such as the differences between reasonable suspicions or exigent circumstances. Or at what point are they simply making inquiries or when they’ve conducted an actual stop of a person. Their conduct is regularly subjected to review when it comes to trial - and some times more immediately if the public is upset by way of civilian committees or other types of review.
Perhaps things get more “murky” when discussing Five Eyes issues and how warrants are issued, but even still there’s a process in place - however flawed or imperfect it may be.
I think the take away from all that is rights are “enshrined” and must demonstrably be treated as a priority even if the actual outcomes are at issue or visibly imperfect.
I just want to add that even elsewhere on this lemmy post, there was mention that the military did deploy. But, soldiers were reportedly not motivated to secure GOV buildings because they’re also aware of their own responsibilities - including the need to follow lawful orders and their Rules of Engagement. If there were no checks in place for these exercises of power, no forums of justice to deal with improper violations of rights, people would just start going full vigilante and what’s the point of hundreds of years of rule of law at that point.
And yes I think the whole thing was an embarrassing stunt on the most highest profile stage South Korea has to offer.
needs to be secret
Nothing that belongs to the public needs to be secret. You are describing kidnapping people.
If you take things to such extremes, can we have the freedom not to have such freedom?
You are the one taking things to extremes trying to compare martial law with wearing masks and making stupid analogies.
I obviously do not support this application of martial law. I pointed at a mask mandate because it fits your dictatorship vision.
I also didn’t say a thing about kidnapping. Telling people to “get off a plane” without a justification is not kidnapping. If you say “get off this plane, we think it has a bomb on it” things wouldn’t fly any better with people freaking over and having panic attacks. You can do the explaining once people are out of the plane.
Disagree.
The whole “any circumstances” is a dangerous stance, man. Any? Like… ANY?
Name any circumstances where slavery is good. Any of them.
Slavery? Don’t bait and switch me. You said Marshall law.
Slavery is part of the human condition. Africans did it too. Google Firestone sometime. We humans seem to constantly make the mistake that we’re too good to enslave eachother, while we go on enslaving eachother, and… pretend no one is, even in a country it doesn’t exist(totally does) in.
This doesn’t get into whether or not you’re in the camp that the entire idea of money is just slavery with a fake sense of autonomy, but I guess that depends on the point you want to make and how you season it.
Actually, if you wanted to make that argument, you could say that all of human society is thanks to some form of slavery.
…when you put it like that, yikes, guys.
Update via Reuters: the president says he’ll abide by the parliament’s decision and revoke his declaration. Nobody started obeying it anyway - the military tried to do something because they had orders, but was not enthusiastic enough to achieve anything.
Some analysis via the Guardian:
Yoon’s declaration of martial law appears to have been a desperate gamble in the face of rock-bottom public popularity – with positive ratings barely over 10% – in the midst of a doctors’ strike and staunch political opposition, increasingly including his own People Power party, whose leader, Han Dong-hoon, said the declaration of martial law was a “wrong move”.
Yoon may have thought that his nostalgia for authoritarianism would resonate with at least some of the South Korean political spectrum, but the unanimous vote in the national assembly to overturn his declaration, including by his own party, suggests he miscalculated.
So it was just a little try to get his country back to a dictatorship (with him at the top) because he was too unpopular.
There really should be laws that one must be psychically healthy to be parliament or president.
Dude broke the first three laws of Couping. Control the lawmakers, control the core of the military, control the media. Win these and you control the narrative.
What about all the US troops stationed there?
I hate to make the jump, but… Is this because of the US election? Is Yoon thinking Trump will be friendly to a dictatorship? I can’t imagine Harris letting this slide, and Biden had a month and tends to be conservative in responses anyway.
The universe does not revolve around trump. Korea seems to have it’s own asshole.
Hi Jeena, long time no see 👋
It certainly isn’t because of Trump, but Yoon is really well known for the same sort of behavior. Covering up investigations, implementing reactionary (but overall pointless) policies, suing media for defamation, denying the existence of sexism, and all the other good stuff.
Indeed, I meant to say I hate to sound so american centric.
But I thought US bases were pretty essential to SK’s security against NK?
Claiming that South Korean politics are subordinate to American politics isn’t exactly unfair…
To this day, the US maintains a military presence on the DMZ, the zone separating the borders of the two countries. Twice a year, they conduct a mock invasion of the north with the ROK Army. The Republic of Korea’s army is copied from the US structure and was created by the US military occupation: they have four-star generals, they have a Joint Chiefs of Staff of the Republic of Korea (versus a Joints Chiefs of Staff of the United States of America). It shouldn’t come as a surprise: their military was created wholepiece in 1945 by the US presence in Korea. The South Korean equivalent of the CIA was named, you guessed it, the KCIA (now the National Intelligence Service).
More notably, ROK Forces obey the US officers present in Korea through the CFC, the Combined Forces Command. This is the only country in the world which is under this arrangement. While the CFC has changed its mandate a little bit in the past few years, it still states that in case of war involving the Republic of Korea, the US Army will take over command of the Korean forces. A state that has no agency over its military cannot be said to be a sovereign state.
in case of war involving the Republic of Korea, the US Army will take over command of the Korean forces
Uhh, might wanna rethink that one once Trump’s in power…
What about them? They were there while South Korea was a dictatorship, weren’t they?
After Yoon’s statement the military said activities by parliament and political parties would be banned, and that media and publishers would be under the control of the martial law command.
Yoon did not cite any specific threat from the nuclear-armed North, instead focusing on his domestic political opponents. It is the first time since 1980 that martial law has been declared in South Korea.
That’s uh pretty explicit. Not quoted are two other key facts;
- In South Korean law parliament can end Martial Law with a simple majority vote.
- They did that vote immediately.
- The Army “attempted” to take the parliament building but was rebuffed by staff members and fire extinguishers.
Y’all, those soldiers were not on board with this idea. And this is all vitally important because South Korea was a dictatorship for most of the cold war. This is absolutely an attempt to reinstate that.
How would that vote be held if the original Martial Law declaration banned Parliament from meeting? It seems like a gigantic loophole they need to close immediately before the president or a successor tries this again.
Banning them, even under Martial Law is illegal.
*Kim Chonk Un calls Xi Jinping to secure a bulk deal on military-grade fire extinguishers*
I hope this can make realize South Koreans how much stupid mandatory draft is
On the other hand, that may be why the Army let staff members with fire extinguishers keep them out of Parliament. It’s a lot harder to get consent for a coup from the military if the rank and file closely resemble the people instead of a separate class.
The whole point of the draft is to turn people into soldier and a separate class.
Not necessarily. By making the Army everyone, you also make the Army no one. As in, there is no separate class. Contrast this with the US where soldiers are held in high regard, and most volunteers come from military families and rural destitute people. Both of which are disconnected from normal society for their own reasons. Then they live in an insular community for at least 4 years, longer if they stay in. And they’re welcome to stay for at least a decade without becoming an NCO.
A 2 year conscription by comparison means you have a constantly rotating force that reflects society. It’s harder to send to war because it could be anyone’s kids, and it’s harder to use against the people because that requires them to fight against their friends. And if the rotating force idea is kept, then it also requires tacit knowledge that what you do today sets the standard for what’s done against you tomorrow.
Different topic a little, but I think a compulsory year or two of service is good for a society.
That said, nations that do it tend to always make it military, when at minimum, there should be a societal service/peace core option, and preferably that should be the common option taken. (help build homeless housing, soup kitchens, etc)
Here in the US, we aren’t a society. We have a sociopathic culture we try to reframe as being “ruggedly individual” aka free to die in the gutter alone. Empathy is a bad word here and our elite’s children go to different schools than our people. National compulsory service might buy some social buy in.
But we’d rather work against one another in a race to the bottom than lift each other up as a people.
Different topic a little, but I think a compulsory year or two of service is good for a society.
Is Martial law ever declared in a non-corrupt, power-grabbing way?
Occasionally in response to things like floods and other disasters. Though then it’s usually local and short lived.
After reading the article it definitely sounds like power-grabbing, but I don’t know much about the Korean Democratic Party so I’m not sure
I read he is blocking the National Assembly building to avoid the martial law being lifted; both parties, including his, will vote to lift it should they get inside
Seems sketchy.
I think the only time martial law can be seen as reasonable is in an outright state of war. And even then, only when it’s existential.
It’s kind of inherently the antithesis of democratic values.
Strictly speaking, the war with the North never formally ended, but that’s a whole problem in itself.
In response to full civil war rebellion. This is not that.
Canada invoked the Emergencies Act in 2022 when the national capital was occupied by a convoy of antivaxers who shut down the city for days. There was some debate as to whether it was necessary and there was an inquiry afterward. The main reason for invoking it was to allow the federal government to use law enforcement since the Ottawa municipal police mostly sat on its hands during the whole debacle.
As a Canadian, I can assure you everyone on the right considered it a corrupt, powergrab. Whether or not you agree is of course up to you, but it’s not a clear sky case
Of course everyone on the right didn’t like it, because “Fuck Trudeau” is the extent of their political understanding. It was overkill in hindsight, but in the moment, with the capital paralyzed and armed terrorists in Coutts, some benefit of the doubt must be given.
but they’ll say that no matter what won’t they? Like the only way to convince the right something is not a powergrab is to let them have their way.
Also in Canada, the War Measures Act was used during the FLQ Crisis in 1970. While some may disagree with using martial law, I don’t think many would say it was used in a corrupt, power-grabbing way.
That’s cool and all but when are they freeing my boy Johnny Somali?
Yup the south is totally a democracy guys. It’s those northern communists that are pillaging out happiness. Pay no mind to the capitalist hellscape it’s actually communisms fault. Oh you don’t agree we’ll time to declare martial law. Democratically
Watch the rest of South Korea’s politicians swiftly depose Yoon for this absolute fuckery (edit: to clarify, even his own party is lambasting this as unconstitutional). I’ve never seen a change in leadership, meanwhile, as North Korea has spent at minimum the last 35 years under a dictator imposing martial law in the form of Songun, spending 25% of their budget on the military while millions of their people have starved to death.
Piss off with this disgusting, tankie bullshit.
Edit: Two hours after the declaration, their parliament has voted 190–0 to end martial law. Totally North Korea, guys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_South_Korea
You’ve never seen a change in leadership? They’ve changed presidents and parties fairly regularly…
My comment is referring to North Korea’s leadership. Technically I’ve seen Kim Il Sung –> Kim Jong Il –> Kim Jong Un, but I don’t consider that “new leadership”, because it isn’t; it’s the same line of a hereditary dictatorship.
Oh, I see. Yeah, that’s accurate.
Edit: Two hours after the declaration, their parliament has voted 190–0 to end martial law. Totally North Korea, guys.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn38321180et?post=asset%3Acb5be5ba-c24f-462c-be58-5fa0b8de3dcc#post
Military says martial law will be maintained until lifted by presidentpublished at 12:23 12:23
The South Korean military says it will maintain martial law until it is lifted by President Yoon Suk Yeol, despite the nation’s parliament voting to block its enforcement, according to the country’s national broadcaster.
Totally normal democracy stuff here guys. Yoon’s also in lame duck period too.
Let’s see how enforceable that declaration actually is with the law itself, the National Assembly, the cabinet whose backs Yoon went behind to pull this stunt, and at least 2/3 of the population who already disapproved of him before this opposing it.
I’d be willing to bet their president does not have direct control over payroll for their military. That tends to put a stop to things pretty damn quick.
I didn’t say north Korea was good but ok.
I was making fun of Yoon’s reasoning here where he literally blamed communists for pillaging happiness from the south. I guess that’s not allowed without also condemning north Korea?
So do you condemn North Korea’s use of martial law? It seems oddly coincidental that your comment sounds so much like typical “actually, South Korea are the bad guys; North Korea true, prosperous Korea” fare and that you only protest my comment after this coup attempt was shut down by the National Assembly.
Well if you’re still paying attention it doesn’t seem so over yet what with the attempted arrest of political opposition. We’ll see how it plays out. Hopefully peacefully.
South Korea are the bad guys. Well not THE bad guys. Just some bad guys. Like their government is famously corrupt and rather recently a dictatorship as well. North Korea martial law is also bad but not directly pertinent to this news story. Odd that whenever something bad happen in the south you feel you must jump up and shout that the north is worse.
Not directly pertinent
You literally started this comment chain by drawing a comparison of Yoon’s actions you were condemning to those of North Korea. You made it pertinent. Interesting trying to both-sides North and South Korea, though. Modern ROK and modern DPRK are definitely both very comparably bad. Yep.
I was mocking the words Yoon said himself that blamed the communists for having to do this. So I suppose pertinent if you want to take what he says at face value and believe he did this because of the commies pillaging the happiness of the south. I wouldn’t believe him if I where you but you do what you like.
Since I do not believe him and instead believe that he is lying and wants to maintain power for himself the conditions in North Korea do not actually pertain to whether or not Yoon’s declaration of martial law has merit.
It’s bad to declare martial law. It’s funny to blame your fascistic actions on commies. It’s weird to insist that we have to talk about North Korea before we can say Yoon is being ridiculous.
I agree that the ROK and DPRK are largely incomparable.
Do you agree that Yoon is ridiculous for blaming commies in the north or do you think that actually is relevant to his reasoning?
Yup, Yoon’s stated reasoning was a ridiculous pretext to justify a military coup and evade accountability, and he should be ousted immediately and thrown in jail.
I declare forest law the king of iron fist tournament
Not a good look, and I have a hard time seeing the people of South Korea accept this and just rolling over. Ugh.
But the military seems to be going along with it, blocking out legislators (even from Yoon’s own party).
And, uh, the precedent for that isn’t good, even if a majority dont support it.
Just watched the chilling footage of Hussein’s power grab the other day and this looks oddly familiar.
Who had south Korea becoming a fascist state?
Do I hear bingo from the back?
I’ll be honest I had South Korean oligarch class does ridiculous cult shit and causes headlines. Does that count?
Close enough I will allow it 😁
Who had south Korea becoming a fascist state?
I don’t read or speak Korean but maybe the president ran on making South Korea
GreatFascist Again? South Korea only democratized in 1987.The
rat racesquid game eventually ends, as it’s not sustainable.
I’m sure this will just be a misunderstanding that will be cleared up in no time. Let me know when that happens.
… I’ll be in my bunker.
world users not beating accussations of never reading linked article
Woosh
Yoon cited a motion by the country’s opposition Democratic Party, which has a majority in parliament, this week to impeach some of the country’s top prosecutors and its rejection of a government budget proposal.
Imagine declaring martial law, and these were the only concrete reasons you could come up with.
Donald Trump: hold my steak.
Hamberder
Hamberder
And covfefe
can’t they have a no-confidence vote?
He’s president, not prime minister. Removing him would require an impeachment, which usually has a higher barrier then a no confidence vote, though I’m not familiar with Korean government.
ok but PPP with 108 seats out of 300 somehow forms government, and not DPK with 170
He’s using the military to block legislators from making any vote to end this
It’s honestly insane that these sorts of technicalities are even possible to block the vote. “I called dictatorshipsies and you weren’t in the parliament building when you clearly, overwhelmingly said ‘no’, so I guess no takesies backsies.” There probably ought to be some sort of provision in Korean law going forward that if it isn’t possible to enter the parliament building, they can hold the vote elsewhere.
Worth noting is that the unanimous vote includes members of the president’s party (as far as I can see from skimming headlines. They’re dropping fast…)
Yonhap news agency cited the military as saying activities by parliament and political parties would be banned, and that media and publishers would be under the control of the martial law command.
i see now, article was updated
Yoon cited a motion by the country’s opposition Democratic Party, which has a majority in parliament
hol up, just how this happens
The president and the government seems to have a longer mandate than the individual representatives.
They lost the last election, hard, so this is a lame duck government.