- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15795315
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Bite my shiny metal ass
I am .NL not .ML please don’t hate on me dyslexic lemmys
Why tho? I’m having trouble figuring out the differences in instances
Lemmy.ml is admin’d and moderated by mostly Marxists. That’s the principle reason, everything else stems from hostility towards Marxism and Marxists.
The lemmy.ml instance is known to have admins, mods and users that spread the promotion, praise and propaganda of dictatorships and other authoritarian governments, bigotry, racism and transphobia. Even when there are hard facts against them.
When I first got lemmy, I think I signed up to .ml but after a while I couldn’t log in so I made a .world acc
Ooh hard facts? I love hard facts! Which hard facts are you talking about?
Allowing a fascist to become dictator of the USA will get millions more people genocided than voting for a liberal.
Telling the truth about a liberal, when that truth contains a call to action not to vote against fascism, will get millions more people genocided than shutting up about a liberal.
millions more people genocided
That’s quite a claim. If the US is set to genocide millions of people, then as people at risk of being victims of that, surely we should be treating the US government as the primary threat to our safety, correct?
Username checks out
How about China is, in fact, a dictatorship for starters. The Communist in “Chinese Communist Party” is just there for show.
How about China is, in fact, a dictatorship for starters
That could be true. But I wonder, in general, what is the process for determining whether a country is a dictatorship or not, from the outside? China claims to be a democracy and holds elections, like just about every other country under the sun. Of course, not every country with elections is actually a democracy, but if we’re talking “hard facts” I think we need to be able to point to specific, objective things.
The Communist in “Chinese Communist Party” is just there for show.
Isn’t the Chinese Communist Party the single largest self-identifying communist party in the world? Shouldn’t that factor in, like, at least a little bit into our standards for what defines a communist party? Regardless, this is kind of just your subjective opinion, isn’t it? Again, what specific, objective standards are you looking at to distinguish between “real” communism and “fake” communism?
China is a capitalistic country with a state guidance in their industrial policy and a dictator in the helm.
They don’t really even have anything in regards to a national health care.
You get banned for stating things like “Russia invaded Ukraine”
I wonder why Lemmy is losing active users 🤔
Instant judging based on first impression.
I can’t tell you how many conversations start with:
“LET ME GUESS…”
That and the constant holier-than-thou one-upping(which has admittedly gotten a teensy bit better, but only a little).
At this point Lemmy instances is just astrology for Linux users
You aren’t that wrong honestly
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Well, if literally everyone I’ve tried to get to sign up but it didn’t take are to be believed, it’s the tankies. I try to explain they can use keywords to at least limit it but by then they’re mad about me “hanging out at a nazi bar” and explaining “no they’re really more Nazbols” somehow just isn’t helping my case. Even when they give it a second shot (rare) they quit when they figure out “rule 2 be nice” means “you can’t say anything we don’t like even if you’re nice and we’re going to be insufferable cunts with impunity because our admins are hypocrites that back us.”
Does “be civil” include constantly shitting on huge groups of users just because of the instance they created their account on? There’s a very simple solution for this if you truly believe an entire instance is worthless and it’s called the blocking function, but I suppose that’d stop the joy you get out of loudly complaining about that instance repeatedly.
It’s a meme sub, chill out.
a) Huge groups of users well known to spread the promotion, praise and propaganda of dictatorships and other authoritarian governments, bigotry, racism and transphobia. Even when there are hard facts against them.
b) The Lemmy blocking function isn’t anywhere as good as you think it is. Maybe even by design, the main admin on .ml is also the lead dev of Lemmy after all.
Can you point me to any member of these “huge groups of well known users” spreading bigotry, racism, and transphobia?
First rule of using Lemmy: If someone claims something happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they’re lying.
“Well known” is so patronizing. It’s like OP is saying “yeah, everyone knows about this, what are you, some kind of loser?”. Another one of those phrases that immediately discredits whatever allegation is to follow.
yeah uh, that’s the joke. That’s the obviously implication of the joke here.
That’s like saying that “all murderers are bad” and then me going “well hey don’t you think is a little bit broad of a generalization? And unfair to people who were unfairly charged, or perhaps in inconvenient but justified circumstances?”
You could make the meme say “lemmy.ml tankies running free posting tankie bullshit” but that doesn’t roll as well as “lemmy.ml doing tankie things because lemmy.ml seems to have no problem with tankies existing”
You could make the meme say “lemmy.ml tankies running free posting tankie bullshit” but that doesn’t roll as well as “lemmy.ml doing tankie things because lemmy.ml seems to have no problem with tankies existing”
It did neither of those things though, so that’s irrelevant. It just says it’s a comment.
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I actually didn’t make this meme, I cross posted it from someone else on [email protected]
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It’s not like it’s a minority of users on .ml doing it that the admins/mods just haven’t brought the ban hammer down on. The admins are part of the problem along with mods cultivate the toxic tankie culture that gets shit on. It’s the non-tankie .ml users who are in the minority, they should have chosen a better crowd to hang with.
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Pretty based take… coming from a lemmy.world user. /$
i assume “be civil” just means that you can’t call people “dipshit asshole dumbass idiot” and things akin to that, i.e needless name calling, calling out perceived problems as long as done civilly, or being rude, but in a civil discussed manner, is i think fair game.
i.e. i could call this a stupid post because it covers what should be clearly demonstrated by common moderation history, i.e. these kinds of threads stay around for a while, these kinds of comments tend to stick around, and that’s generally good enough reason to keep moderating as you are, precedent is a very strong thing.
but i couldn’t just call you a dumbass because you should know this, and therefore you must be the most uneducated person in the history of humanity. Because that’s not civil.
.world consistently removes memes calling out their own communities. But they leave up any “meme” bashing .ml
As does ml. Worse even. But the fact that both do is a defense of neither. So I’m not sure why you even bring it up. Be better. World isn’t tied to any particular political ideology. Ml 100% is. And if you mention absolute documented facts. You can and will be banned from there. Because the facts go against the narratives. World has its problems. But I haven’t seen anything approaching that yet.
But theres a difference, when a .world mod defends genocide or promotes imperalism you know its ok because its in the name of Western Democracy ™. Tbh .ml and .world are basically in a competition on who can fling the most shit and who can bootlick the hardest.
Non-tankies on .ML getting upset at this:
You might not be an idiot, but you’re wearing a T-shirt that says “I AM AN IDIOT” in bold letters across your chest. Maybe change your shirt. 🤷🏻♂️
There are a few tankies on other instances. The difference is that they get in trouble when they act out.
i’ve created this alt in the interim of finding a more permanent instance residence. Just got exhausted by the massive amount of shit they peddled over there.
TODO: pedal vs peddle.
I bet there’s not a gratuitous amount of bicycling going on over in .ml land, but I could be mistaken.
fixed from ‘pedalled’ to ‘peddled’. I’ve met a decent number of Marxist cyclists, so i could believe it.
Could be, I’m no expert on cycling.
Lemmy.sdf.org is a good one with a “very light touch” attitude towards defederating instances of what you’re interested in
Sh.itjust.works is also a good one with great admins I’ve heard (and also funny name)
I hear a lot a spam comes from shi.itjust.works
I’ve seen people say this, but haven’t actually seen it outside of one asshat who picked a fight with Beehaw a year+ ago.
As a user I’ve had a pretty great experience personally.
I’ve just heard from other mods that it can be a source of problems
Could be the case of a vocal minority. The biggest complaints I have scene is that the instance admins allow whatever
dbzer0 is chill if you like the more corner posting type shit, as well as some piracy related shit.
Come to .nz! Our admin has the best track record on trans rights out of any instance drag is aware of.
to better analogize this, you’re hanging around a nazi rally trying to find friends, and people keep calling you a nazi for some reason.
Weird.
As a Lemmy user I don’t care for this
I feel like Lemmy has the reputation of being Tankie
It’s a metaphor since tankies don’t seem to exist or make a difference in real life
They’d have to go outside to do that.
average lemming experience really.
It literally does though. I stopped telling people that I use Lemmy as a result. When some instance defederates from ML and establishes itself as being solid, I’d love to tell people irl that I use that.
If you are trying to say not to paint people with too broad of a brush, I get it, but also, we don’t get to choose how others think of us, only what we will do in response.
I was on ml and it was pretty chill for a non-tankie. Until a mod powertripped and ban me for insulting an homophobe. Some people like me join the instance without knowing of all this tankie thing. IMO, hexbear is far more toxic.
why not leave?
Sunk cost fallacy.
I’ve already made so many posts and comments here, if I were to switch to a different instance, I’d have to start all over.
i did
So? There’s not much value in past comments/posts is there? Like, how often do you look back on those?
Yeah, not much value in your past comments/posts.
You should turn this account into an archive.
I don’t have an issue with lemmy.ml users but that’s because I don’t use sweeping generalizations. I’ve had perfectly acceptable conversations with people across all kinds of instances.
I’m not a tankie but am a fan of parts of communism and I like socialism.
Nothing about a dictatorship is public ownership.
*ism is just a tool for any aspiring autocrat. Stalin would have been far-right if he saw it as being a valid pathway towards power.
Effective tyrants are forever pragmatic and never burdened by ideological loyalty.
Yes that’s why I stated Stalin, Putin, and the CCP are ideologically opposed to socialism/communism. People who enjoy socialist concepts should be opposed to Lemmy.ml, not see common grounds with them.
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Hey, I was you about 6 months ago. Same views, and then I was called a dirty imperialist just because I wasn’t left enough. Like, these ML people are out for blood. They want a revolution and it’s acceptable if people have to die to achieve it.
I hate when leftists punch down on other leftists. It’s not a competition!
They want a revolution and it’s acceptable if people have to die to achieve it.
Yeah that’s how revolutions work. Because the alternative, at least in theory, is more people dying of poverty, environmental pollution, institutionalized oppression, and other consequences of the current global economic system.
The CCP nad Putin cucks aren’t even leftists, like at all. ML and Hexbear supported Donald Trump because he is anti-NATO.
I like socialism too. But I hate bootlicking authoritarian simps who pretend like they know shit about socialism because they read that one Lenin essay on Marxist.org
What’s worse on the internet these days is “Marxists” that have never read Marx, or just the Manifesto, yet think themselves an authority on the subject. I made an intro to Marxism reading list to help alleviate that, and try to point out misframings and misunderstandings of Marx when I see it, but it’s still a huge issue across Lemmy. Particularly Lemmy.world.
The problem is that folks see these things implemented in the past and say “let’s just do that.” Why can’t we take the good parts and think beyond the rest? These are systems that just won’t work with current population growth and resources. We can always do far and away better than capitalism, but I’ve talked to a handful of working class people that lived under communism for years and they have nothing good to say about it. Not a single positive thing. It’s easy to dream about these things and wax poetic when you don’t experience them firsthand.
Any time a path opens to seize power, humans fill that void regardless of what they believe in. Now suddenly we’ve traded authoritarian 1 for authoritarian 2. It makes no sense to me and I read both Lenin and Marx.
My former officemate grew up in Russia in the 80s, he hated a shitload about growing up in the Soviet Union. He raved consistently about two things: the education system and gender equality.
His mother was a mathematician and computer programmer, and he didn’t have issues with school there until after he’d been here (the US) as an exchange student and had some… Cultural differences with his teachers.
“People who smile a lot in Russia are considered to be unintelligent”
We can always do far and away better than capitalism
i think the real ticket, for global economics, especially ones that are going to be sustainable is going to be some sort of pseudo capitalist society. Especially one with a free market. Free market decentralization is a hard target to beat.
There’s room for a lot of interesting study here, i’m not sure any exists, and i’ve yet to see any unfortunately, it’s mostly just people dickwagging around trying to do the le socialism thing, which is funny, i guess.
The problem is that folks see these things implemented in the past and say “let’s just do that.” Why can’t we take the good parts and think beyond the rest?
Of course we should! Every instance of socialism should adapt to the specific material conditions. There’s not much reason to think that socialism in developed countries would look the same as socialism is pre-industrial societies.
It’s just that in order to know what worked and what didn’t, it’s necessary to treat those projects as serious, earnest attempts at socialism and to be willing to point out both the positive and negative aspects. And doing that will immediately get you branded as a tankie by .world. Because in practice, tankie doesn’t actually mean that you defend everything any socialist state ever did, it means that you defend anything a socialist state ever did. Thinking critically and trying to learn from the mistakes from the past makes you a tankie.
Dronies have a pathological need to distance themselves from every attempt at socialism (except the ones that failed, which can be upheld as perfect since they never had to implement their vision), which renders them unable to look at the past from an objective standpoint. They are more concerned with making sure everyone knows that they’re “one of the good ones” than they are about studying and learning from the past. Tankies, otoh, are willing to own up to the facts and acknowledge that past projects were genuine attempts, even when they ultimately failed as the USSR did. Of course it would not have failed if it didn’t have its flaws. But you will rarely see a dronie pushing this angle or interrogating the reasons for the failure, because learning from its mistakes is too close to treating it as as serious and legitimate project - far better (and easier!) to just write off the whole thing and push for shit that has only ever existed in your head and has never been tainted by contact with reality.
I’ve talked to a handful of working class people that lived under communism for years and they have nothing good to say about it. Not a single positive thing. It’s easy to dream about these things and wax poetic when you don’t experience them firsthand.
You should talk to some Australians instead. Australia’s communist nations have been stripped of their land, so most australians alive today don’t have much direct experience with communism, but the modern descendants of Australian communists all have good things to say about the way it was done 300 years ago what with the stateless, classless, moneyless gift economy.
It’s not even an issue of population. Communism requires material conditions you simply cannot create by killing the opposition, no matter how much you desire to preserve “the revolution.”
Capitalism is but one manifestation of material and labor scarcity. Until those things are eliminated you will experience the exact same ills in one form or another. Until those things are eliminated the only option available is harm reduction. Revolutionary communism fails specifically because it fails to recognize itself as a particularly shitty form of harm reduction, insisting the entire concept is bourgeoise propaganda. This is what contemporary leftist theorists have come understand, and what obnoxious internet edgelords refuse to acknowledge, because it requires admitting that Stalin and Mao didn’t get it right.
Ironically this is literally the foundation of Dengism and modern China, which MLs say they like, until you reduce it to first principles, at which point it once again becomes bourgeoise propaganda.
Until those things are eliminated you will experience the exact same ills in one form or another.
Under capitalism, stores throw perfectly good food in a padlocked bin while people starve. Investors speculate on empty properties while people die of exposure. Capitalism creates scarcity so that it can sell people the solution.
It’s 2024, our technologies for agriculture, medicine, engineering, and education are amazing. In terms of the basic necessities of life, we are already a post scarcity civilisation. What we’re lacking is a post scarcity economy to match it.
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You’re absolutely right. I just signed up on .ml because I was a reddit refugee and it was one of the largest instances, and it got the fastest updates. Like a year later, suddenly everyone’s talking about me like I’m part of some crazy cult. I bet well over half of .ml users don’t even come close to the extreme stereotype, but are considering going to another instance just so we don’t get bullied any more. It’s likely going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It pushes the lemmy.ml users who are normal out while angering and reinforcing the identity of the ones who are extreme.
Sure, whatever. That’s what happened on X. The normal people are leaving and the Nazis are stuck in their hate bubble with no normal people to talk to. Let’s do that.
I’m not even a .ml user and posts like these are pushing me to switch to their instance lol.
That’s why I think they’re astroturfers. I mean how else are you going to deter people from a political idea without being completely insufferable?
The communism is a facade for their propaganda, and it also bolsters extremist discourse. Win-win for them.
Sounds like you might like anarchism
I do have some anarchist tendencies.
we do a little bit of dbzer0ing
All of these spaces are permeated with foreign actors. Not all users, but I know a percentage of the users statistically have to be across all the large instances. I’m in tech and we’ve seen fake users appear in public Slack and Discord channels, try to schedule job interviews (it’s happened before), etc. The forces these governments have in tech behind the scenes is enormous, and there is no way to truly know who is and isn’t a state actor on the web.
We need more critical thinking. More separation of person from ideas. People get too hung up on figures.
Except on .ml that “critical thinking” you’re talking about is western anti Bolshevik propaganda to them and you’ll be banned.
That’s the problem with .ml, you just get banned.
but am a fan of parts of communism and I like socialism.
Probably why you don’t have issues with Lemmy.ml users.
You can still appreciate Karl Marx’s Manifesto without endorsing the Soviet Union or China.
Sure, in the same way I appreciate Kant or Kierkegaard or any other modernist - as foundational thinkers who laid the groundwork for more contemporary ideas. The entire issue is that so many internet leftists take Marx as dogma, and are often poor students of philosophy outside of that very narrow context, yet will lecture you about how you only disagree with them because you haven’t read enough year one polisci material. ML spaces are as dunning Kruger as the internet gets.
Im the same, I like socialism and the theory of communism is nice.
I don’t like .ml users because they hardcore believe and spread the bastardized authoritarianism-based CCP/Russian propaganda version of communism.
What you’re looking for is anarchism. Aka libertarian socialism.
Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is against all forms of authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including the state and capitalism.
Um. No. I rather enjoy having a government, just a government that isn’t corrupted by the rich and actually takes care of its people like it’s supposed to. That inherently necessitates it having authority.
That’s not what the theory of communism aims for, but you do you.
Edit: to go in a bit more details, anarchism doesn’t deny all authority, just authority gained by and used for coercion. A doctor would still have authority to recommend treatments, since they are more knowledgeable, for example. So that uncorrupted and caring government you want is simply a form of anarchism
Either you’re thinking of something else or you should go update Wikipedia then, because that’s where I got that description from.
That description does not contradict my words. It says about abolishing coercion and hierarchy, not authority
Edit: I re-read your reply. Yes, the part about being “against all forms of authority” is not entirely accurate, but the second part is true nonetheless. I suppose you could rephrase my example with the doctor and call it an “expertise” instead of authority, but the concept of it is people would still defer to specialists in specific fields that have more knowledge and experience than them.
As I’m new to the anarchism myself and do not wish to misrepresent its values, I think this this site might give you a better in-depth look
It’s extremely telling that you are relying on Wikipedia for your understanding of Communism, rather than Marx, Engels, etc. You should read theory, if you want to start I made an introductory Marxist reading list.
i like to think of anarchism as the educated brother to the miscarried libertarian-ism.
It’s harsh, but i’ve never seen a libertarian make a good point, or understand anything remotely relevant to government, so.
I think anarchy, by the very nature of it’s existence is more suited to handle the challenges presented by no government existing, notably, a new government being created. Because anarchy is most often following a government collapse, and followed by a new government being created.
It’s important to distinguish anarchy and anomie. The latter is the government collapse you mentioned, accompanied with lawlessness and lack of morals, while the former is simply lack of central overseeing authority (archism), for one reason or another.
The long term goal of anarchism is not destroying all governmental structures in one fell swoop, but rather gradually building communities based on liberty, solidarity and mutual help that don’t require hierarchy or coercion to function.
Then those communities naturally take over governmental functions like protecting the people, the central government dissolves when it is no longer needed and the process doesn’t harm anyone. No “new government” is created nor is necessary.
In terms of relationship between anarchism and libertarianism, I like to think of anarchists as a subset of libertarianists (since we all oppose authoritarianism fundamentally). I’ll admit I’m not as familiar with other libertarian ideologies.
Right. They’re opposed to socialism and what the hold up as communism is actually Fascism with a heavy dose of State Capitalism.
This “instance tribalism” is beneath me. You can’t ignore this comment, it will live rent free in your head.
Is this a joke?
What is the real joke is categorizing people by which Lemmy instance they sign up to, and justifying it with a weak truism that “people self select for communities”. I believe it is utterly stupid, and t can also be motivated. In Lemmy.ml I have met some of the brighter minds of our generation.
I don’t categorize people from any other instance, but .ml is on a whole other level spreading their toxicity. It’s like a tankie factory.
In all good faith, I am an anarchist who found ml randomly from some Privacy/Open Source searches. I signed up because I thought it was cool to be admitted in the flagship instance and I liked the anti-bigotry guidelines. Then I found out about all the drama, and I have zero fucks to give about inter-instance beefs. ML let’s me be, and I had no serious issues so far, I mostly like the crowd there, coming from Reddit even more so.
Here’s the thing though, you’ll be unable to convince us that .ml aren’t stupid shitheads because we’re here too, we see them too, we talk to them too and share in the experience just like you do, some (like me) going on 3y+ now. You can’t fool us because we experience it firsthand, you can only succeed in convincing us that you don’t see the problem because you’re one of “the problem.”
because you’re one of “the problem.”
I always aspired to be a problem. But see you have no justification for this statement. You are just lumping together everyone who shares a lemmy.ml address without an iota of data other than your personal impressions. This is just plain lamentable.
Having said that, I hold extreme views right enough, since I don’t think there is such a thing as a middle ground to fascism. Do you see my 100% no-pasaran as a problem? And if yes, how low are you willing to stoop before setting your priorities right?
To borrow a quote from Kolank in this very thread:
You might not be an idiot, but you’re wearing a T-shirt that says “I AM AN IDIOT” in bold letters across your chest. Maybe change your shirt.
.ml is that T-shirt. I hope you get the help you need.
Wait, what are your personal opinions of Putin?
This is moronic, and I shouldn’t validate it with an answer. There are tons of trans users in ml and I hardly think any of them holds any favourable views on him.
It’s okay to criticize him over here. You don’t need to be afraid.
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That’s because you stoop too low.
All tankie users are in .ml, but not all .ml users are tankies.
You should always judge the merit of the comment, not whether or not the person is from .ml. If you see a comment that is pro-CCP or pro-Kremlin from an .ml user, then the point of the meme is valid. But a well-thought, benign, good-faith or wholesome comment from an .ml user should not be dismissed.
The admins of ml are tankies and so are a lot of the communities there. The non tankie users are moving away from that instance which increases the tankie concentration.
I think what you are meaning to say is that many tankies can behave like normal people. To take your comment farther, tankies can be anywhere but you will most likely see them coming from I stances like ml and hexbear or fresh accounts on other instances.
I used to be on ml when I first joined lemmy because I did know better, now I love my instance.
Do you really love or have any feeling towards your instance? I think of it more like an e-mail address than a “name” for like an apartment building or mascots/team name (probably why these posts confuse the shit out of me). My first instance had connection issues/downtime so I switched to .ml. Almost switched from them like a month ago because of slow loading times but seems to be better the past couple of weeks (this is the basics of html, I shouldn’t have to “watch” it load).
I just always scroll on All (active), and sometimes subscribed if I’m feeling in the mood so I never even consider my instance unless something technical or posts like this come up. I have a couple of mobile devices that I’m never logged into that I’ll pop up lemmy on from different instances (.world, .ee, etc), I actually am less likely to use an instance that advocates heavy defederation.
Not everyone in a nazi bar is a nazi. Let’s hear them out and give them the benefit of the doubt even though they could go to literally any bar, but keep going to the nazi bar
When choosing an instance, it is not necessarily overtly advertised as such. It’s just one of the largest instances, so many “regular” people are obviously going to pick it. New users are not going to be intimately familiar with the elaborate politics of federated Lemmy servers upon first arrival. It would be a bit bizarre to expect them to be.
Except the pro-Russians won’t say they’re pro-Russians.
A lot of Russian propaganda is just sowing FUD.
Here’s a tangentially related comic, as I just read the latter bit of your comment in that tone, (not saying you’re guilty of the same things.)
Basically, because being directly pro-Russia is so see-through, a lot of bad actors merely sow FUD. For one check [email protected] if you want an example. A very polite person who lists links and sources (firehose of falsehood is also a soviet strategy btw).
Dude pretends to be American, talks American politics, but always in line with Russian propaganda, while saying things like “reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias” and absolutely refusing to address whether he is pro-Russian or not, despite very clearly having talking points which show he is strongly pro-Russian.
So either he’s an American who fucking loves Soviet culture and larps being Russian, is actively against Ukraine and believes Russia was eight to invade it, so the least patriotic American to ever exist.
OR… (and I believe this to be a tad more likely) he’s actually a lying Russian.
But Russians aren’t known for disinformation and lies, right? Right…?
Based 👌❤️
So true bestie
never speak
As a resident of a politically indifferent instance that is on good terms with everyone, I can say one thing:
Fuck absolutely everyone who turns Lemmy into yet another Internet battlefield.
Leave .ml alone. Leave Hexbear alone. Even yes - leave Lemmygrad alone. People there will not change their opinion when facing hatred, and newbies coming there doesn’t change the big picture, as Lemmy is federated and they can figure stuff out for themselves.
Trying to silence entire instances, especially the biggest ones, is absolutely not a welcoming picture to whoever’s coming here, and being cut out and filtered for happening to choose the “wrong” instance is the worst possible greeting.
