I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
If Russia stops fighting there would be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there would be no Ukraine.
Well said.
At this stage, since they have fought so well, I’d guess there would just be a much smaller, much weaker Ukraine.
We will likely see this happen now Trump is president. He is too egotistical to not take revenge on them for not playing along with his quid pro quo back in 2019.
The Ukrainian flags in republican yards never meant a thing… They sold Ukraine out at the polls.
That includes only battlefield context. Truth is Russia will at the very best economically and politically fall into a 3rd world country level the moment it loses the war. More probably dissolve into smaller states = there would be no Russia as we know it today anymore.
Good. After what they’ve done, they don’t deserve to exist as a nation anymore.
Yeah. Let US the saint be world’s boss. Never killed a fly anyway.
Literally repeating US State Dept. talking points.
And? The saying was popular before Blinken’s speech btw.
I can’t find an earlier source. And it’s not accurate:
Boris Johnson Pressured Zelenskyy to Ditch Peace Talks With Russia: Ukrainian Paper
In the weeks ahead of Johnson’s April 9 visit, high-level diplomatic talks held in Belarus and Turkey had failed to yield a diplomatic breakthrough, though reports in mid-March indicated that Russian and Ukrainian delegations “made significant progress” toward a 15-point peace deal that would involve Ukraine renouncing its NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Moscow’s troops.
This guy floating up to the sky when US State Department says that gravity is real
… and the WMD’s will be found any day now in Iraq General Powell.
Do you do anything besides shitpost and deliberately misinterpret people?
Kicking the dogs passes the time.
I don’t think you understood the joke. Do you know the saying about a broken clock?
You forgot the person standing to the other side saying, “But what about that time when America…!?”
Red-painted fascists just can’t help themselves. War is Completely Justified Resistance And Blowback until someone actually fights back, at which point it’s Pointlessly Extending The Conflict
EDIT: lot of downvotes, no replies. I know I talk a lot about gaza in this comment, but that’s just because that’s something I know about. I’m way less informed about the Ukraine conflict. Ultimately this comment is just asking for what you believe and why you believe it, read the final sentence first.
I kind of tapped out on paying attention to this conflict, I’m already losing enough sleep over the genocide in Gaza.
With the conflict in Gaza, my opinion is that a ceasefire would be best, followed by an abolition of the apartheid state by means similar to how the one in SA was abolished (forced by global divestment like that enforced by 1986 US anti-apartheid act, etc). On a moral level, this solution feels unsatisfying. So much land has been stolen from the Palestinians, and part of me wants them to fight and win it all back, so advocating for a peaceful resolution hurts. But I also know that realistically, continuing to pursue armed conflict will only result in more Palestinian deaths, and more loss of territory, so I reluctantly join protests in favor of a ceasefire.
I realize that the conflicts are different. Russia is much more powerful than Israel, the Palestinian ethnic cleansing has been going on for decades, etc. So I don’t know what to feel about the Ukraine conflict. The pro-peace POV I’ve already heard. Ceasefire, concede Crimea to Russia, Ukraine becomes non-NATO zone, and the killing stops. For the pro-war people in the Ukraine conflict, what are you hoping for, and what facts make you feel this hope is realistic?
EDIT: lot of downvotes, no replies.
Lol your comment is currently 4 hours old, and you have a reply that’s 3 hours old. Maybe try waiting more than an hour this isn’t reddit. It might take longer to get a reply, but it probably won’t just be a stupid meme.
The thing is sort of similar to the Gaza conflict. Who guarantees a ceasefire, who takes up arms to defend that ceasefire if necessary? Precisely there lies the difference. Russia is nuclear power and has veto power in the security counsel of the UN. Amy nation that were to guarantee Ukraine would inevitably get into a major conflict with Russia - a major military power. And because only Western nations are interested in guaranteeing Ukraine, if Russia were to violate the ceasefire - it would be immediately involve NATO and you’d have WW3. Now here’s a point that is similar to the Gaza conflict. Russia has a track-record of violating all contracts and agreements they signed. There’s the memorandum that forced Ukraine to return the nukes they had after the dissolution of the USSR- in return of sovereignty of Russia. There’s a signed allowance of Russia for Ukraine to join NATO and the EU from the early 2000s. And more than I can recall from memory.
While it would technically be possible to force Israel to do what the US/EU wants, by many means. It would be difficult to force groups such as Hamas, Hisbollah, the Houthis to do anything without Iran backing and enforcing such a deal. Something I highly doubt to happen, without Iran losing all backing by other countries. No one can force Russia to do anything besides possibly China, which they won’t. The US/NATO could as well, but that would mean direct military engagement, something everyone is desperate to avoid - because no one knows how sane Russian leadership would act in retaliation.
Frankly though I believe that all attempts to pacify the world right now are not in the interest of neither the parties in the Gaza conflict as well as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea. They are clearly showing over and over again with their hybrid warfare that any and all attempts at a peaceful solution would necessitate a believable threat of the US to actually dismantle the entire Russian military.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue. It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine. Tolerating or believing such BS ensures your own oppression. Every US war is tolerated because you are brainwashed into stories of their leader deserving US aggression. War/sanctions is not for your benefit. Pressing for nuclear war with your absurd lies and tolerance for demonic diminishment of world is bad for you too.
There seems to be a “wokeness” over propaganda for Israel genocide, Syria insurection, and every single other war and coup the US is involved in, and the corporatist oligarchist propaganda subjugating you, and meant to subjugate you. When you humanize such disgusting lying propaganda as Russia is the one who is the aggressor in Ukraine, your idiocy fully guarantees your oppression, and you get these disappointing expectations that NYT can be “left wing” while neocon/Israel first oligarchist liars instead.
The fuck are you on about? Yanukovych, a known Russian puppet, being deposed means that US and Ukraine instigated the war?
Most of these “woke” people are also against the genocide of Palestinians, but go on I suppose.
Ukraine violated minsk agreements. I’m tired of pretending otherwise.
Read less msmBot detected. Russia violated ‘Trilateral Statement’ in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
In an interview to Semen Pegov in 2024 former head of DPR Alexander Borodai explained that, in military terms, the Russian intervention in Ukraine should have started already in 2014 but Russia was not ready for that in economic, military and propaganda sense, which is why Russia entered the Minsk Agreements with no intention of complying, but it gave it time to prepare the full-scale invasion.
Straight from the horse’s mouth. Ukraine was forced to sign those agreements at gunpoint. Russia violated it repeatedly and never fully implemented it. And Borodai confirms Russia never intended to keep to the terms.
Lie less.
First to yourself, then to everyone you poison with your presence.
F Ukraine, they are not my problem
So you admit that you hate Ukraine and this is why you’re spouting bullshit lmao
I admit that I hate when propaganda machine whips people into supporting causes they should not care about.
I have 0 to gain from Israel killing Muslims or Ukraine fighting Russia.
This is exactly the same media companies that deny you a right to health care and sustain first past the poll system that keeps 2 shit parties in power.
When media machine tells u to do something - u need to do the fucking opposite.Deny them war, for as long as they deny u right for UHC.
This is where I’m going to have to tell you that I have more to gain from Ukraine fighting Russia than any American politican does. You see, I’m from a country that would be first in line to be invaded by Russia if NATO ceased to exist. I’ll never trust Russia the country, regardless of any purported left-right leaning of their leadership, farther than I could throw it. Which is less than one planck length because it’s a pretty big country, attached to the planet, I can’t throw it anywhere.
That’s not to say I hate all Russian people or anything. Most of the ones I’ve known have been chill and hate Putin too.
Some three decades ago, us Estonians, along with our brothers in Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and many other country, managed to become free of Russian oppression. Nobody wants it again, and clearly Ukrainians are pretty proud of their independence too, otherwise they’d be laying down their arms en masse.
I do wish there could be peace, but Putin’s ego won’t allow him to settle without any significant territorial gains and while there’s war, I for sure am rooting for Ukrainians who, idk if you’ve heard, this, are the defensive side in this war. They did not roll tanks into Russia out of the blue.
They are Western-imperialists what did you expect ?
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The democratic one-state solution would make whatever that state would be named (Israel/Palestine/Whatever) majority-Arab and majority-Muslim. That is why people should rationally be for it (because it’s an apartheid state otherwise) and should understand that it is the only roadmap to peace between Israelis and Palestinians that does not involve one group wiping out the other.
I agree, that why i said “without even”,
Because actually, that’s even not a state. On the status etc ok, but for real, they have no independance, to say outloud their conditions. They depends of others arabs states.But for the one state, without Israel being a Jew nation, national socialism for zionist and without a constitution…, there is a long road, and this road have to start somewhere. Recognizing the legitimacy of the palestinians as people, is maybe a start.
Yanukovych was not a Russian puppet. IMF scuttled EU deal that he worked to sign. Unrealistic/electoral suicide conditions were placed on IMF loan. He wisely chose a Russian loan instead with no conditions. Black flag (US/Nazi) attack on protesters blamed on Yanukovych was the coup. CIA/State handpicked replacements for government, nazi massacre in Odessa, and apartheid ethnostate laws, led to liberation of Crimea. Russia’s peaceful Minsk process to provide autonomy to Donbas was used as a delay tactic by Empire to arm Ukrainians, but implicit in their participation was acknowledging Ukraine’s nazi problem, and nazi shelling of Donbas. Zelensky admitted his electoral campaign to implement Minsk and denazify Ukraine was a lie. Russian patience telling Ukraine it was time to end the BS with border troop amassments was met with increased massacres of Donbas civilians.
1 month after special operation started, Ukraine had agreed to Russia’s peace terms. US/UK bribed Zelensky into suiciding to the last Ukrainian instead. Blinken/US admitted it is a “strategic imperative to diminish Russia” which cannot be a view simulataneously held without provoking/perpetuating the war that is sold as a jobs program for weapons workers, and “future American control” (Blackrock is American and freely gives all its profits to all Americans) of Ukraine’s resources.
When pathethic evil lies that the 2014 Ukraine coup had any “Ukrainians love” component to it is repeated, you implicitly support every other lie of the US empire. Yeltsin was awesome liberator, and Putin terrible and corrupt is simply brainwashing based on each leader’s level of US empire puppetry. The only puppets in the world are those loyal to CIA. The rest are doing their best to survive through alliances/trade not subjugated to US subjugation.
Can I have some of what you’re having?
As long as you can use google translate for the talking points, I imagine you could do it too.
ChatGPT might even be the better option here. People give it a lot of flak, but it understands context better than Google Translate.
How do you even pretend to know what you’re talking about when so many of these lies are so damn obvious?
Putin said in a speech in Feb 2022 that the idea of Ukraine as an independent nation is a fiction and blames Lenin for its existence. He has always believed the entire area belongs to Russia as he said it himself.
Irrelevant context of insulting Ukraine. All that matters is conditions for ending/avoiding war. Not history that in restrospect proves Ukrainians to be assholes.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue.
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
When Ukraine agrees to stay neutral and not join NATO. That simple. Same as prior to war, or 1 month after war. They would idealy denazify, or at least eliminate persecutory anti-Russian laws, or if they don’t allow referendums for anti-nazi regions to join Russia.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
The siege of Kyiv did motivate Ukrainian peace talks. Was likely a mistake to withdraw in good faith based on agreement in talks.
What’s the principle behind Russia being allowed to prevent Ukraine or another country from entering alliances? Why doesn’t this same principle apply to the Baltic states? And if Russia were to successfuly capture all of Ukraine, would it then have a right to demand similar neutrality from Moldova, Romania, and other states it would then borders? And does the same principle apply the other way - i.e. would it have been just for NATO to say Belarus can’t ally with Russia when Lukashenko took over and invaded them?
The US just had an election where the most pro Israel candidate was unanimously approved by entire political establishment. CIA owns every candidate in every foreign democracy, and for some reason needs NGOs in Georgia too. Existential questions about “sovereignty” have to be considered within context of evil and democracy itself, the best vector for pure evil and corruption. “Foreign influence” democracy talking points include allowing all US/Israel foreign influence and blocking all other. Romania SC corruption recently is extreme intervention to ensure NATO slavery.
What’s the principle behind Russia being allowed to prevent Ukraine or another country from entering alliances?
A different way to word this is why should Ukrainians be FORCED to suicide themselves and their property/prosperity to serve US ambitions of diminishment of Russia? The unliberated portions have lost the right to elections, and Zelensky’s platform was the exact opposite of war with Russia. Russia led the Minsk peace process to provide autonomy to Ukraine’s nazi persecuted eastern provinces. West’s hypocritical participation to delay in order to arm the nazis, was still acknowledging Ukraine’s nazi problem. Time to give nazis stronger ruler over Ukraine is your “what principle/right of interference is there”.
Ukraine and Canada should be free to diversify their trade. It is in their interests to be friendly with large trading partner. Russia should be allowed to build nordstream expansion when Ukraine chose extortionist fees for the pipelines in their country. US policy on nordstream has been a specfic war on Europe, extortionist profits to fund US weapon sales.
When you invoke the “axiom” of sovereignty to justify extreme evil and manipulated destruction of the sovereign, nuclear strikes on the root of the evil get justified by resistance to evil, whether or not you classify it as more evil, because you’re just asserting the right to fabricate war, and there is no principle that says you are right to win such a war.
And if Russia were to successfuly capture all of Ukraine, would it then have a right to demand similar neutrality from Moldova, Romania, and other states it would then borders?
NATO needs to be disbanded, and democracy restored to its members. If current corrupt subjugation persists, and Europe devoted to suicide for US empire power maximization, then certainly defense against NATO will depend on power balance to defend against NATO. US, adhering to its unprincipled invocation of evil pretending to be principle, has no moral issue in supporting Israel taking territory on “buffer zone pretext” followed by Israel 3 days later announcing that “this is great land to expand settlements in”, while bombing Southern Syria independents it pretends is ISIS, while arming/bribing actual ISIS in cooperation with Turkey support for same groups.
If principle mattered, secession of people who don’t like their rulers would be promoted. That they need protection from an ally by joining a different empire is unfortunate, but realist.
The crackheads elsewhere in this thread shout demonism of “Remember the history of soviet union” to justify evil today. It’s an unprincipled world.
What an insane rambling of lies you’ve put together there.
You have apparently never lived under Soviet occupation and I strongly suggest you read up on it before you even try to spew such garbage again.
Weird. Even the Libertarian CATO institute agrees with you:
The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It
Nazi apologist 🥳
Ad hominem’s, sad 😔 I’m more concerned with historical facts:
The Eurasian Chessboard: Brzezinski Mapped Out “The Battle for Ukraine” in 1997
It’s all about maintaining the US position as the world’s sole superpower
I wouldn’t say “Nazi apologist” is an ad hominem… It seems directly related to the discussion at hand.
I wasn’t aware Ukraine or Russia were National Socialists. Reducto ad Hitlerum.
Is there a “trying to fit everything you don’t like into a fallacy in order to dismiss it outright” fallacy?
There is the “fallacy fallacy,” but that’s slightly different I believe (though you’re also doing that one).
But I’ll indulge: You know nobody was referring specifically to the National Socialist party of 1930s Germany. Don’t be obtuse.
If you try to infer that the argument of your opponent can be dismissed because of their character, then it is a clear argumentum ad hominem
Ah yes, ancap libertarians. Lemmy users are famously fans of them and their philosophy.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war
k
Peace-loving Russia could easily end this War of Ukrainian Aggression by no longer having its military inside Ukrainian borders. For some reason, they just love peace too hard to stop shooting.
Is true, i read that on flathearth.net
Typical RadLib American imperialist Lemmy Post
Those words all mean things!
TIL American imperialism is when Russia’s neighbours don’t let themselves be invaded by Russia
As a Mexican, it’s always “fun” to read this American comic strips.
It’s also fun how they don’t even reply, just downvote. Reddit lives on lemmy.world.
Reddit is actually quite good on Ukraine support. The bad thing about Reddit is that Spez has allowed Israeli brigades to bandwagon and sneak in support for “Israel at War” as if it was comparable.
Downvotes, frankly, Lemmy users are asking for it by not making downvotes transparent. It’s really telling when an account that isn’t really active jumps to downvote deeply nested comments., or when it’s the same accounts downvoting your comments across different communities where they otherwise hadn’t participated on until they began downvoting.
Yeah I think it is a mistake to have some people viewing who up votes and who down votes and others not seeing it. If the data is there, it should just be viewable by all, otherwise the “bad actors” you are worried about doing wrong things will still find ways to do them, and the standard person is just blinded from seeing those actions.
I just disable the view of the voting system. That fixes Lemmy for me, but once in a while when I’m not in an app or I’m logged out, I get to see the downvotes.
Tankies also downvote. Different flavours of Nazis.
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All the shitstain MAGAts should serve in the Russian infantry.
All the shitstain MAGAts should serve in the Russian infantry.
you’ve been played by the same media machine that keeps denying you a right for health care.
No american should support arming Ukraine or Israel for as long as they keep denying us the essentials - right to health care or working rights like mandatory vacations.we should deny military industrial complex their wars for as long as they denying us what we want.
The European countries, like Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, etc…that have superb healthcare and mandatory vacations are supporting Ukraine with military weapons. You should move to fucking Russia or any country occupied or heavily influenced by the shithole and and then tell me about your rights. I understand your comment and yes the US healthcare system is a massive dumpster fire and the defense budget is out of control.
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This is your usual real conversation?
I have to ask, why do people simp for putin? not russia, but putin?
Can you give an example of someone who doesn’t simp for russia, but simps for Putin?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
“Genocide is bad and should be resisted”, but I understand Trump voters aren’t a fan of that idea.
Wait, why are tankies siding with magas? I’ve been intentionally away for a minute, what did I miss?
Did something major happen in the last three days? Or is this the usual redirection of hate after we’ve found something to rally around?
Fash and red fash are basically the same thing loyal to different empires.
Maga-Communism is a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Hinkle
Can someone show me where all the tankies are? All I ever see is anti-tankie propaganda like this and its seems like a straw man to me. Where are the Leftists who defend Russian aggression?
/c/endlesswar
In this fucking post, for starters.
Did you ask that before or after scrolling down and reading the comments doing exactly that?
It’s the American way.
Russia invading Ukraine is wrong. But the world is full of wrong things. And until America fixes its problems at home, it is deeply immoral to drain the economy and weapon reserves and put our citizenry at risk. Anyone who believes the politicians usual garbage about “protecting democracy” and “standing up to imperialism” is a moron.
Did you know that “own people first/eigen volk eerst” is the slogan of a Belgian far-right neo-nazi party?
There is nothing immoral about helping a people in need.
You’re very naive to think the US war machine is “helping a people in need”. Even Boris Johnson admitted this is a proxy war. They’re sending ukrainians to die just to mess with Russia. They have no chance of winning anything.
3 day operation that is now in its 3rd year…
Isn’t this idea that the conflict was intended to last only 3 days something the media says to portray the russians as weak and incompetent?
Afaik at this stage of the conflict they’re fighting so Ukraine can reclaim its lost territories. They’ve been at this stage for a long time and it doesn’t seem doable. This is why many lefties are against the war. Because if you know there’s no chance to win but you keep fueling the flames, you’re just sending those people to die just to weaken the enemy, which is a pretty shitty thing to do.
Anyway this is just one point of view, might be a very stupid one, but I think it’s worth taking into consideration.
Russia clearly stated at the start it would only take them 3 days. Russian officers had pre-booked tables in Kyiv restaurants on the 4th day. They were that confident it was going to be over that quickly.
Boris Johnson is well known for being an idiot. Ukrainians are fighting for their land and their freedom, they’re not being sent by americans.
yup. this.
Do you think we have no free will here in Ukraine or something? It’s so easy for you to dehumanize us as some puppets who have no agency and are “sent”, “made”, blah blah blah. Fuck off.
I think our free will is being manipulated by the media, manufacturing consent. This goes for people in Ukraine, Europe, the US, Russia, everywhere.
There are some good Youtube videos on the subject if you’re interested.
I think you would find that bombs being dropped at night on your city, country, your friends and loved ones, schools, theatres ans hospitals, by a “brotherly nation”, whose leader speaks a lot about your country being fake, over the pretence of fighting some “nazis” apparently, would do much more to directly influence your free will than Youtube.
They don’t care about you, they care about the idea of you. Just like how so many idealists self-righteously “fighting” the genocide of Palestinians by being armchair warriors on the internet have never actually talked to any Palestinians. Or even tried to.
Stay safe, my friend. I am sorry America will likely not have your back much longer.
Just to offer you a perspective on what other people think, not that you asked for it but idk, don’t read if you’re not interested :) I’ll be brief.
America not having their back might bring about a truce treaty, which would stop the war, the bombs, the people getting killed. I think across the political spectrum from “tankies” to Trump supporters and everything in between, lots of people are hoping for a fast peaceful outcome.
Your willingness to give land that isn’t yours away is noted.
It’s not my land to give, it just seems to me that trying to take it back doesn’t work, and I question the motives of western states and if they genuinely believe in victory, or if they’re just fueling the war to weaken their enemy.
lie.
Russia tried to avoid this.
it was Ukraine who violated Minsk agreements.Weird, even Bill Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Perry understood this:
The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace.
NATO “expansion” is all an excuse. If Tyler beat up Timmy and a few kids in the class realized Tyler was a bully, and agreed that if any of them got attacked by Tyler they would all help out, and then Jenna hears of this alliance and asks to be a part of it, because she doesn’t want to get beat up by Tyler either, it doesn’t mean Tyler gets to beat up Jenna and steal her property. It means Tyler should stop assaulting others and stealing things all together and play nicer with other kids in the class.
Cite sources instead of relying on allegory, like this:
Among others, Biden’s CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That’s when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.” source
What am I looking for in that? The parts that say Ukriane is no threat to Russia, and that Russia amassing troops to start an invasion into Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO but rather their yearning to rebuild a Russian Empire?
Also, what do you have against allegory? Do you yearn to be the dictator of communication? Lol
Weird that Russia invaded the sovereign nation of Chechnya murdering their democratically elected leader then just took the country saying it belonged to them.
This has nothing to do with the west. It’s just Russia doing what Russia has always done centuries before the U.S. existed. Putin only cares about taking over lands to make Russia what it used to be and will use any excuse. Allies in the west(like you) are only tiny toys Russia has been using.
Putin is a totalitarian autocratic dictator with imperialist ambitions, but that does not negate the globally destructive effects of American imperialism. This is not mutually exclusive.
The Ukrainian population clearly does not want to be under Russian rule. How did American imperialism cause this?
Some rando’s YouTube channel is the best way to frame your argument. Everyone knows that if it’s on YouTube, it must be true!
Very anti-capitalist of you. Be sure to like and subscribe!
Ok. I’ll bite. Uh… What?
Bot detected. Russia violated ‘Trilateral Statement’ in 1993, when Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for security. And what do you think happened next, dum dum?
