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Dude you don’t gotta announce your departure
what a way to start a drama over a fucking joke
Let me know where you end up, I always feel like walking on thin Ice here.
Going to see if 196 on .world is available.
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Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out! If you think gatekeeping someone else’s identity is acceptable behavior in explicitly trans friendly spaces, then I’ll be happy to have less of you in my feed.
Like I said, Ada et co absolutely have the right to cultivate the community they want to see. I legitimately wish them the best.
And yet you’re trying to stir up drama instead of just shrugging and moving on.
And in a completely unsurprising twist, they feel the need to stick around defending their position fully 24 hours after loudly announcing their departure. Almost like it was all attention seeking in the first place 🤔
Trans women are women.
Nobody is a dragon.
Dragons aren’t real.
For those not familiar with DragonFucker/Rider/Drag:
Dragon uses the pronoun “drag” in place of “I”, “drag’s” in place of “my”.
They wouldn’t say:
I like cheese. Blueberry isn’t my favorite. I know what my heart wants.
They would say:
Drag likes cheese. Blueberry isn’t drag’s favorite. Drag knows what drag’s heart wants.
Beyond whether or not they literally think they are a dragon, going to marry a dragon, beyond even using ‘drag’ as a custom neopronoun that normally replaces 3rd person pronouns…
They are using what they call their own custom first person pronouns, but this reads to basically every English speaker as constantly referring to themselves in the 3rd person by using their own nickname, akin to the royal ‘we’.
Dragon has told me that they don’t see “drag” as a nickname, but as a pronoun.
… I don’t think they are trolling, in the sense of just doing something annoying to get a rise out of people, a voluntary activity one choses to do consciously.
Their grammatical behavior is consistent across all their posts, they don’t only engage in it from time to time.
I’ve even had a few conversations with Dragon where I’ve attempted to explain that half of the hate they get and arguments they get into stem from people misunderstanding what they are saying, because of their extremely niche way of using pronouns.
They’ve told me, directly, that my understanding of how their pronouns work is correct, and that this proves that their pronoun/grammar style is thus not confusing, and that eventually everyone will just adapt and understand them.
…Despite the fact that I told them I had to do like an hour worth of research to figure out how this all actually works, which Dragon … intially chastized me for, saying it was all clearly evident from their profile (it wasn’t), and that I did not need to do that much research…
…even though I seem to be the only person I am aware of explaining Dragon’s grammar/pronoun style in every thread we both happen to be in where most other people are just misunderstanding them and that leading to arguments.
Anyway, I’ve never heard of anyone using custom pronouns for “I” and “my” until Dragon.
Ever.
I myself am queer, have run in many circles with many lgbtqia folks, and I’ve even dated a queer person legitimately diagnosed with DID, and not even they would use their own custom first person pronouns for their alters, or the collective system of alters as a whole…
I respect drag’s pronouns. Correct me if I’m wrong, but referring to drag as with “they” is not right?
They wouldn’t say:
I like cheese.They would say:
Drag likes cheese.Not trying to pull a gotcha or anything, it just confuses me because I keep seeing comments defending drag’s pronouns while also using they/them.
I don’t use Dragon’s pronoun structure in my own speech because it is extremely confusing…as I attempted to explain.
‘They/them’ is significantly less confusing, and is widely accepted as a gender non-specific pronoun.
Sure, Dragon would likely prefer I use ‘Drag’ where I used ‘They’ but the whole problem here is that doing so is confusing.
So I am using the commonly accepted gender non determinative pronoun, which is understandable to everyone, or just avoid pronouns and use Dragon as their name… because the second part of their name has changed, and a lot of people know them by a different second part…
Anyway…
Dragon claims to use ‘drag’ as a ‘person independent pronoun’ in ‘first second and third person’ which is functionally indistinguishable from constantly referring to yourself in the third person with a nickname, and preferring that others refer to you with a custom pronoun in both second and third person.
Here’s my best attempt at constructing the whole pronoun chart.
Subj // Obj // Pssv Adj // Pssv Prn // Rflx
First Person (Used by Dragon):
I // Me // My // Mine // Myself
Drag // Drag // Drag’s // Drag’s // Dragself
Second Person (Preffered use when referring to Dragon):
You // You // Your // Yours // Yourself
Drag // Drag // Drag’s // Drag’s // Dragself
Third Person (Preffered use when referring to Dragon)
They // Them // Their // Theirs // Themself He // Him // His // His // Himself She // Her // Her // Hers // Herself
Drag // Drag // Drag’s // Drag’s // Dragself
This is not the same as every other neopronoun structure I have ever heard of.
It is inherently more confusing to most than even the standard neopronoun structure’s I’ve seen, because it replaces first and second person pronouns, which I’ve never seen any other neopronoun structure do.
I’ve never seen a neopronoun user throw away I Me My and prefer others not use You Yours Yourself when referring directly to them, but Dragon does.
To top it off, it is all even more confusing because the ‘pronouns’ are all the same across first second and third person.
Dragon says ‘drag’ is not a nickname… even though it is a concatenation of their name.
Only difference is that they don’t capitalize it in the middle of a sentence… but it reads as just constantly referring to yourself in the third person with a nickname.
…
… That’s a long way of saying that I’m not going to use Dragon’s ‘pronoun’ structure because it isn’t actually a pronoun structure.
It is a preference for a third person only refferent, made by a person who denies that that is what it is.
Can you show me any other neopronoun structure where the neopronouns include apostrophes?
Where the neopronouns are identical across first/second/third person?
Where the neopronouns sometimes demand modification of the verb tense accompanying them to 3rd person, regardless of the tense of the neopronoun?
I’ve seen some people refering themselves with their own name, though all of them is online and haven’t met one irl.
Also if people watch We Bare Bears, Ice Bear always refering himself as “Ice Bear” and never “I”. No one watching the show seems to hate him, however.
Personally i don’t really care, not sure what’s the fuss around Drag using it tbh.
Edit: it seems there’s more to this story i’m not aware of after reading all the comment, if that’s the case i might’ve mistaken the situation :/
Also now i do remember meeting someone that refer to herself in 3rd person.
I wonder if their point is basically to stress test the pronouns system we have,
e.g. make people think about why we use them and why we need thembasically doing something to an extreme to show the issues/benefits it entails
First of all, thanks for your explanation. That made everything clear. Secondly:
and I’ve even dated a queer person legitimately diagnosed with DID
What does DID mean?
Dissociative Identity Disorder.
Colloquially known as multiple, or split personality.
Ah, thanks for the Info.
They would say:
Drag likes cheese. Blueberry isn’t drag’s favorite. Drag knows what drag’s heart wants.
If it is indeed a custom first person pronoun, they are using the wrong third person version of the verb.
Which is odd, but also, like, whatever. I don’t have a horse in this race.
If it is indeed a custom first person pronoun, they are using the wrong third person version of the verb.
Correct.
Dragon says they’re using ‘drag’ as a pronoun, but they actually are not.
They are using it as a nickname whereby they constantly refer to themself in the third person.
They don’t believe this is what they are doing, but it is what they are doing.
Its not actually a coherent neopronoun structure that works within the grammatical rules of English.
Further, I should add that Dragon states that their preffered ‘drag’ pronoun also operates in second person, on their profile.
Meaning that if you were talking directly to Dragon and said:
You like blueberries, right?’
…they would presumably view the use of ‘You’ as not respecting their preferred pronouns, which should instead be ‘Drag’.
Love how drag lives rent free in your head. Seriously, get a hobby dude, obsessing about a trans person this much is not healthy.
At any point you could have simply blocked drag, but no, engaging with drag is so much better, isn’t it? Now you’ve made posts upon posts and comments upon comments about how blahaj is weird, about how drag does not deserve to have drag’s pronouns respected, and how admins/mods/whatever on blahaj are bad.
To what end? To tell the greater user base that your opinion is superior? To make it known that drag is weird and in turn potentially cause drag to be harassed? To have the admins and mods be harassed? To have individual users with non-standard pronouns harassed?
You say you don’t care and wish Blahaj well, but your posts and comments say otherwise. My friend, it might not have been your goal, but your posts and comments are rather inciting in nature, people will get harassed because of you.
It’s nothing more than a clever way of using the “I identify as an attack helicopter!” and everyone is falling for it.
I knew Blahaj was never ‘for’ me, but I always felt comfortable here. Guess that’s over. Ada and the admins have the right to cultivate the community they want to see on Blahaj, and I wish them the best of luck going forward.
I’m going to miss 196 and Femcelmemes, but… well, Blahaj isn’t for me, since I don’t acknowledge ‘dragonfucker’ as a gender.
I’m sad that one user has caused so much trouble for so many people on here. I don’t get the current situation at all, as it’s small potatoes compared to the myriad of transphobes and tankies from other instances. I don’t often block users, but I don’t see how this issue isn’t just tied to a single one who would be better off blocked.
I don’t get how wider political discussions get roped into personal problems. If a person was a really nice “dragonfucker,” I don’t know if we’d be having this conversation. It’s fine to dislike a person without seeing them as immoral or a political enemy.
I’ll be sad to see you go, especially over this 😞
I don’t often block users, but I don’t see how this issue isn’t just tied to a single one who would be better off blocked.
That’s the problem with precedents. Especially when the precedent is established with a user whose behavior is already quite… non-ideal.
I’ll be sad to see you go, especially over this 😞
Yeah, I’m not thrilled either. I enjoyed Femcelmemes very much. I hope your community continues thriving!
The comment defending “drag” as a pronoun (and banning people over it) even uses “they” twice. Apparently admins don’t have to follow the ridiculous, made up rule. They can just ban anyone who calls it ridiculous.
I haven’t spoken about a specific user in any of this…
drag explicitly doesnt mind people using they/them
It goes back and forth.
honestly the dragonfucker problem would’ve come up one way or another, dragonfucker is the direct cause that pulled the trigger but the shell and propellant was already in place
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Hope you get banned soon <3
Wait I just saw some femcel posts like 2 hours ago, was it actually banned?
No, I mean I’m no longer going to be on Blahaj, and those are the communities I’ll miss. Hence “but… well, Blahaj isn’t for me, since I don’t acknowledge ‘dragonfucker’ as a gender.”
You can just leave, we could care less
That means you do care…
( At least a little!)
I hate these word crimes!
I care that he bothered to make a whole post about it yeah, but not that he’s leaving
fyi, dragonfucker is banned from 196 too. I think the moderators are pretty fair in yeeting people for being rude, regardless of opinions on gender and the like
That’s why I seem so lost on this whole thing
I don’t think I’ve ever seen their posts or comments
Edit: I also apparently had them blocked as well.
(Not sure if I’m supposed to say this yet but screw it):
If it’s any consolation, for a good handful of weeks we’ve been planning on moving 196 to lemmy.world ASAP… but to tell you the truth I’m not sure how soon that will be. It’s tricky, but we’re working with the admins of both instances to figure it out.
Edit to clarify: We’re not moving because of the “neopronouns” thing.
That is some comfort!
I sure fuckin hope not, lemmy.world admins and mods are generally even more incompetent than the others.
I’ve had some bad run-ins with Lemmy.world mods, certainly, but the admins seem overall fine, if amateurish. They generally take into account feedback and try to provide the full rundown of any actions taken. When one of the admins crossed a line of participation/moderation/administration in the recent vegan cats debacle, they chose to clarify and have the admin admit wrongdoing.
Far from perfect, but they’re tolerable.
Mods are one thing, users are another. Didn’t the vegans leave because users kept coming in and ignoring community guidelines, then go around the mods to disregard the community guidelines not because they care about animals but because they don’t like vegans? The dog pile was pretty gross from what I remember. None of the meta discussions focused on mod behavior; all of them were anti vegan circle jerks.
I pretty distinctly remember the vegans leaving because their primary complaint was about the admin taking action.
The thing I did was make an alt on Lemmy.vg and subscribe to all the vegan comms, hopefully LW will assign a vegan admin to help assist the vegan communities on the instance.
I’m open to suggestions for other instances
Well first of all there should probably be a pinned poll about whether 196s subscribers and users actually want to move. After that if people actually think its necessary to move, you can make a pinned poll about suggestions for a new instance.
By “asap” I didn’t mean any minute now. :p Rest assured we wouldn’t make such a big change without at least telling you guys outside of a comment on a random post. And I agree a poll would be a good idea.
And apparently I was mistaken about some things, so I’ve deleted my comment. Until further notice, just disregard what I said. Any major changes to 196 will be announced by the other mods, probably through a sticky post.
Edit: Since I deleted the last post I’ll clarify here, too, that we weren’t making any major changes due to the neopronouns thing. It was just something I saw being discussed a good while ago and assumed it was still underweigh.
Agreed, moving 196 to .world is a terrible idea.
Darn, I’m really going to miss it then. lemmy.world has not been worth keeping in my feed generally.
Yeah me too, been a lot happier without . world bickering in my feed but will be sad to lose 196
I’m open to suggestions for other instances
I mean, I’m a Taurus, a gamer (ttrpg kind, i don’t use the gamer word), and identify more with cats than dogs, but none of that is gender related nor gets it’s own pronouns. heck I’m a transhumanist so i fully get the desire to not be human, but its all a little dumb imo ┐(シ)┌
That said, i just ignored the guy you’re talking about and enjoyed more interesting conversations. Like the topic of pronouns in general! We absolutely could use better ones
Personally I blocked the guy a long time ago
I didn’t even know what was going on around here until I dug into it and found the source the situation
PJ is a smug neolib who hates anyone but the status quo.
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Ay bro who cares.
If you enjoy debating this stuff find that space.
If you are bothered by it let it go.
If someone can’t be weird on the Internet when can they be weird? Like let people do their thing man
Honestly, I didn’t care until the admins got involved. I’m not sure if I’ve ever mentioned drag in anything other than passing before this. Now that the admins are saying that denying that dragonfucker is a gender or that dragons exist is a removable and bannable offense? Not feeling like sticking around on Blahaj after that, unfortunately.
It’s just not worth it imo. Easy to coexist around and not care
I bet in regular conversation on the topic of dragons nobody is going to lose their shit about you reminding people a dragon is a mythical creature.
But if you put it in context of this person it becomes mockery and that’s not cool.
I bet in regular conversation on the topic of dragons nobody is going to lose their shit about you reminding people a dragon is a mythical creature.
But if you put it in context of this person it becomes mockery and that’s not cool.
Likewise, in regular conversation on the topic of the earth, no one is going to lose their shit over me reminding people the world is round.
But saying it to a flat-earther, it takes on a very different tone.
But both of those examples fail to fully encapsulate what is being shown here - these posts in the OP? They’re all from a thread in which drag is not a participant, in a comm where drag is literally banned. This is not even “Don’t tell flat-earthers the earth is round”, this is “Don’t ever suggest that flat-earth isn’t valid”.
don’t make marginalized people be more marginalized. I don’t see how it matters if it happens in another instance if I was spouting hateful rhetoric but didn’t do it here does that keep me safe?
I cannot see any Lemmy account which the writer of the removed comment could possibly be referring to.
Hypothetically, if there were a user whom all but the admins/mods could conclude to be a troll, all users could individually block said hypothetical troll and advocate for blocking of accounts that come across at first glance, second glance, and even ten hundredth glance to seem to be trolls. This would allow the users to avoid the frustrations wrought by the hypothetical troll as well as prevent users from incriminating themselves within the admins’ and mods’ rules by not interacting with nor even referring to the aforementioned hypothetical troll specifically.
This is all purely hypothetical of course.
Again, I cannot see any Lemmy account which the writer of the removed comment could possibly be referring to.
However, I’m sure the admins/mods couldn’t knock you for gracefully advocating for wariness of nonspecific trolls in general if you happen upon a situation in which you think that warning may be particularly helpful.
You can also just block users whom you get bad vibes from for whatever reason, whether you believe them to be genuine or maliciously disingenuous.
Do admins have access to a tally of how many users have blocked a given account? This may give them an indication of whom the user masses consider to be problematic accounts.
It’s crazy what people make a drama about not being able to harass someone who doesn’t use he, she or they
Well, that certainly is one of the paragraphs of all time.
Get Glomph’d on! Thankfully I’ve never met someone who actually wants people to refer to them as dragonkin outside of FFXIV roleplay servers.
It feels like every time drama pops up, I go through a period of confusion before realizing it involves someone I blocked and forgot about. You’d think I would have learned by now.
Yeah seriously, its not that deep, just block and move on.
Yea I don’t get it… if it bothered me I’d just block that one person and move on…
Ah lol, your heading is really ambiguous. This initially looked like you were supporting the ban and saying “goodbye” to them.
Sorry about that.
Guess it doesn’t matter over-much. Just felt sad about it and felt the need to make one last post.
