Text for readability:
So far, Americans using RedNote have said they don’t care if China has access to their data. Viral videos on TikTok in recent days have shown Americans jokingly saying they will miss their personal “Chinese spy,” while others say they are purposefully giving RedNote access to their data in a show of protest against the wishes of the U.S. government.
“This also highlights the fact that people are thirsty for platforms that aren’t controlled by the same few oligarchs,” Quintin said. “People will happily jump to another platform even if it presents new, unknown risks.”
Lemmy doesn’t have the censorship and speech-control from those platforms, but it pretty much distributes your data widely to anybody that asks for it.
Hear me out: if you post stuff publicly, it is out there. The issue is data that shouldn’t be public getting public
This is it. A strong public domain benefits everyone. It is why open source software works.
Content sure, but not where you are when you posted it and other meta data
AFAIU Lemmy sends your username, a user ID, and URI along with your message. That’s pretty innocuous.
It’s way less innocuous than you think.
But yeah, it’s only the stuff that you’d expect it to send. And only the stuff it needs to send. But the thing is, the valuable data those social networks gather is almost exactly that. They will invade your privacy and get everything they can, but the real value is on that and what you read. (What you read isn’t shared here.)
On that note, I’d be shocked if one or more of the alphabet agencies haven’t developed a half-duplex version of the fediverse platforms purely for surveillance purposes. The openness of the ecosystem is really nice, but the default promiscuity of the protocols in question does have some specific and notable drawbacks.
You forgot .ml
It’s never really been about data collection. It’s about what service feeds users. The algorithm can be tweaked to provide slant towards particular ideals. It can sway elections. Some would rightly say that’s already done hard by western social apps. Yeah, and that’s wrong too. So they blame other countries for a smoke screen.
I know we are all on here because we dislike the kind of algorithms that tik tok, Instagram, and Facebook have, but that is exactly the thing my wife was looking for. When I had her download pixelfed and loops she was like ’ I have to search out content and manually follow people like I did with Facebook back in the day?’ and she uninstalled.
Algorithms can be addictive and evil, but for some people that’s what they’re looking for.
Okay, well I have impulses to go and get drunk, do hard drugs, and attempt to sleep with random women. None of those things are close to a good idea for me.
Just because you feel drawn to something or a type of thing does not make it healthy or a good idea for that person. Taking desires and expressing them in a healthy way is important, desires dont just disappear.
It’s fascinating how Lemmy users view internet consumption habits as a reflection of personal ethics. You can’t always hold other people to the standards you’ve achieved. Using and navigating Lemmy takes effort insight that the majority just don’t have. Being alive also takes effort and can be very painful. Sometimes people just need to be able to turn off and zone out. Try not to place value judgements on the ways that other people do that.
We aren’t smarter for being here, we just are loners who didnt care who would be here. I think its important for everyone to open up more to strangers especially in multinational spaces. We saw a lot of interesting conversation for the brief time people moved from tiktok to rednote, and that type of stuff dispels misinformation better than anything. You are treating it as a personal thing but it is a social tool for a community.
Some people’s aversion of algorithms on the fediverse kind of reminds me of people’s aversion of GMO food. Genetically modifying rice to contain more vitamin D is probably good; genetically modifying vegetables to contain more cyanide would probably be bad. Algorithms don’t have to be built to maximize “engagement;” they can be designed to maximize other metrics, or balance multiple metrics, or be user-customizable.
IMO, Mastadon is much worse off for their refusal to implement any kind of algorithm outside their “explore” feed. When I tried using Mastodon, search was unhelpfully in chronological order, and my home feed just got overtaken by the people that post the most. In contrast, Lemmy’s handling of algorithms is pretty good, imo.
As bad as search engines are now, they’d be even worse if they just gave you results in chronological order.
Its not even the algorithm I dont like, I’m sure I could manipulate it to how I want if I put the effort in, its the bite sized videos and even shorter comments, often single words or phrases. I can’t move on from thing to thing that quickly. The fediverse suits the pace at which I like to consume information and allows me time to think on it, and more importantly, interact with opposing views in meaningful ways.
lol I absolutely agree that TikTok style content is a major contributing factor in mental unwellness (and there’s scientific data supporting that) but you have to understand that is what the majority of people are looking for. and it’s not going away, at least not any time soon, and probably not from any top-down actions of coordinated governance. we gotta accept the reality that like AI it’s part of our world now.
with that said, hey, the parent comment makes a pretty good case for why normies dont federate
I think you’re hung up on how Big Tech has designed feeds with the express purpose of keeping you there for as long as possible, or even more perversely, as enraged as possible.
But algorithms can be made to serve other purposes, and I think the fediverse could do with a curation algorithm. Or even better, multiple choices for algorithms to suit your preferences and needs. From what I’ve heard, Bluesky offers something along those lines, which has contributed to its adoption rates.
I think if Lemmy devs wanted, they could probably come up with some great starter options. Heck, maybe they make it easier for everyone to customize their own algorithms. Not sure how far you get without knowing how to code that sort of thing directly, but even a little would go a long way, I bet.
The fediverse and the decentralised web has a long way to go and need to learn a thing or two about UX unless it wants to join the plight of Linux distros.
" . . . giving Rednote access to their data as a show of protest . . ."
That’s a special kind of stupid.
They’d be right at home at .ml
Not everyone who is willing to use redbook is interested in the authoritarian gatekeeping done in the outrage farm known as lemmy.ml
You might be surprised to learn that there are plenty of leftists who aren’t interested in marxist-lenninism at all
Sir we’re all outrage farmers, it’s why we (mostly) left Reddit.
The weird obsessions you and some users have for certain instances that you can block is truly mind boggling
Edit: lmao considering OP went to trouble of making a whole gif to celebrate being banned from .ml, I’d say they also fall into the category of “user being obsessed with another instance”. A very mature and normal thing to do!
Whu, are you really criticizing op for spending time to make content???
Cirklejerking is nothing new. Dissing on the big heavily moderated instances is just a part of lemmy culture as I understand it. And its not like people on those big instances arent cirkejerking against the haters also.
Here is a mirror. Why are you making a fuss about it? You yourself are free to block any of us if that is your preferred solution.
I am not gonna block them, I am even subscribed to some spaces on .ml .Majority of the users are no different then elsewhere. But i do take the underlying warning seriously and try to pay extra attention to subtle propaganda (which exists on every instance). Encourage people to sign up to smaller less restrictive instances.
I have read your explanation comment btw, and i am gonna be honest it makes no sense in the context of myself. The reason I personally cant relate with tankies is not because they are too left for my comfort but the exact opposite. Compared to my own anarchist ideals tankies lack qualities i deem important and exhibit propertied i recognize as fascist in nature.
If you are now thinking my opinion on what counts as fascist isnt worth any salt to you then you are close to understanding my point. We are still both a part of this community regardless of both our valuable opinions and while yours frustrates me a bit, i hold no ill will against you.
Blocking is just shoving your head in the sand, what about new users who don’t know any better? Not very fair to them to be instantly subjected to that fire hose and is a bad look as a whole.
Blocking is just shoving your head in the sand
I already wrote my thoughts here about this, so I’m not going to re write everything.
I am very much aware about those instances.
What it actually shows, is that neither of you have taken the time to understand why those instances are hated. You’re just following the trend without knowing why
what about new users who don’t know any better?
What about them? They can find out just like any other users have. Hopefully, those new users might do more research on them than you
Not very fair to them to be instantly subjected to that fire hose and is a bad look as a whole.
It’s exactly as bad of a look as any other instance in here. There are trolls everywhere, and you pretending that they’re only there is an outstanding simplification.
You think there aren’t any bigots on .world? What would those poor new users think of .world when they see a racist bigot?
Sorry, but I did have an open mind with them. You’re the one that has a fundamental misunderstanding on the tankies of .ml
Most of their positions isn’t “The ideals of communism is good and should be pursued” which is something I have no issues with
Their positions deny basic facts in support of their beliefs, like China being an authoritarian dictatorship masquerading as a communist country. Or China has in fact led its own genocides or that Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked. Hell they’ve even been known to be on favor of NK.
And when you bring up these basic facts, your comment is removed and you’re probably going to be at minimum banned from the community. They do not engage in good faith. Period.
That is why they are so hated
Edit:
Look at this, not even 20 minutes ago, “JiveTurkey” banned for “bigotry”
Sorry, but I did have an open mind with them. You’re the one that has a fundamental misunderstanding on the tankies of .ml
Riiight. I have an alt account on .ml (like you would know if you bothered to read linked my comment, instead of replying to only a chunk of my comment) but I am the one who don’t understand that instance…suuure.
Also, trying to use tankies as an offensive term, immediately shows your true colors and how much you “really had an open mind”. You didn’t and you don’t have an open mind.
Most of their positions isn’t “The ideals of communism is good and should be pursued” which is something I have no issues with
It actually is.
Their positions deny basic facts in support of their beliefs, like China being an authoritarian dictatorship masquerading as a communist country. Or China has in fact led its own genocides or that Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked. Hell they’ve even been known to be on favor of NK.
All of this is false. Just because there are SOME extreme users, it doesn’t mean the whole instance is like that. By the same standard, when I see a Trump meme or with Confederate flags or with transphobic content, I should generalize for the whole instance too, yes?
The examples you provided further show that you didn’t really went to .ml with an open mind. I am not denying those facts, but the way you described them indicate you learned nothing. There are SO many posts already there that address all those examples and how historical revisionism and propaganda helped to muddy the waters. A lot of the things we know about those historical facts (and let’s be honest - we’re not historians. The things we know about those events, are mostly what was told to us and what we quickly scanned on a summary) are somewhat painted in a light that makes them appear more favorable to whoever has interests in the race.
And when you bring up these basic facts, your comment is removed and you’re probably going to be at minimum banned from the community. They do not engage in good faith. Period.
I’ve never had any issues with the mods over there. Whenever I asked questions about ANY of those facts, I’ve always received very calm and detailed answers to those questions. Sometimes I was happy with their replies, sometimes I was not and my mind wasn’t changed.
But certainly I didn’t go in calling everyone a tankie and telling them they’re all just a bunch of insane users who don’t understand as much as you do.
That is why they are so hated
It’s not. It’s because it’s easier and more appealing for users to get on the hate train without actually engaging with different ideas.
Just like so many users do when they go in that community to ask a “gotcha” question that has been addressed thousands of times before and then cry “see? Authoritarian tankies!!” When they get banned for it.
Full honesty here: I too cried like that at first. But it’s precisely because I behaved in a similar way to what I just described. And that is not open mindedness
Edit: to reply to your screenshot: That comment is using a lot of common stereotypes. You think “western” platforms are not censored? Try making a positive post about Palestine on Reddit or on Instagram. I dare you.
I too cried like that at first.
You’re really throwing out every dishonest rhetorical tactic in the book. Reading this exchange is disgusting.
Riiight. I have an alt account on .ml (like you would know if you bothered to read linked my comment, instead of replying to only a chunk of my comment) but I am the one who don’t understand that instance…suuure.
Oh I did, you mostly just regurgitated the same points. Also, I don’t know why you keep going on and on about having a .ml alt. .ml is in fact federated with .world and .ee (unfortunately) so you don’t need an alt to engage with them. If you’re saying that you have a .ml alt so you get “treated better” over there then that’s a whole problem on its own.
All of this is false. Just because there are SOME extreme users, it doesn’t mean the whole instance is like that. By the same standard, when I see a Trump meme or with Confederate flags or with transphobic content, I should generalize for the whole instance too, yes?
The examples you provided further show that you didn’t really went to .ml with an open mind. I am not denying those facts, but the way you described them indicate you learned nothing. There are SO many posts already there that address all those examples and how historical revisionism and propaganda helped to muddy the waters. A lot of the things we know about those historical facts (and let’s be honest - we’re not historians. The things we know about those events, are mostly what was told to us and what we quickly scanned on a summary) are somewhat painted in a light that makes them appear more favorable to whoever has interests in the race.
“Some” like the fact that the admins and mods are the ones who are on the more extreme end? I don’t deny that .ml has “normal” users, however, it’s quite clear what kind of culture the admins and mods are trying to cultivate.
Nutomic btw is the head dev and main admin of .ml. but there’s no transphobia over there huh?
I’ve never had any issues with the mods over there. Whenever I asked questions about ANY of those facts, I’ve always received very calm and detailed answers to those questions. Sometimes I was happy with their replies, sometimes I was not and my mind wasn’t changed.
But certainly I didn’t go in calling everyone a tankie and telling them they’re all just a bunch of insane users who don’t understand as much as you do.
Ofc not, you’re fitting in quite nicely with the “culture”
I’m waisting my time. You keep ignoring my replies and bringing up new unrelated topics to avoid giving actual answers.
Have it your way. Goodbye
Just like so many users do when they go in that community to ask a “gotcha” question that has been addressed thousands of times before and then cry “see? Authoritarian tankies!!” When they get banned for it.
hahaha this one is for real tho lol
“DAE commermism 100 million people? omg!”
it’s easier and more appealing for users to get on the hate train without actually engaging with different ideas.
absolutely this ive never felt more seen because it really is so much easier that way and people hate on me for it
how do you get this overview for the bans?
[instance]/modlog
For you it would be lemmy.sdf.org/modlog
Though you can go to any instance modlog to see modlog from any other instance as long as the instances modlog your viewing is federated with the other instance.
For example lemmy.world/modlog does not show hexbear entries because .world is defed’d from hexbear but sdf’s modlog will show hexbear entries
I see, thanks
Blocking is just shoving your head in the sand,
And so is trying to get anyone who disagrees with you to shut up.
I think individual instance blocking is not as good as defederating.
However, even with my instance defederating ml, hexbear, and grad, I can still see ml lovers who moved to other instances, which is slightly disappointing.
However, even with my instance defederating ml, hexbear, and grad, I can still see people like you, which is slightly disappointing
Not as disappointing as seeing you contributing nothing to the conversation. You just replied to be mean and leave a snarky reply even though I’ve never interacted with you before.
But tell me more about how those other users are trolls…
Is Loops out yet?
very beta rn, but its no worse than TikTok functionally and doesn’t have any Chinese spyware
How is Loops no worse than TikTok functionally? People love TikTok for its feed algorithm. Loops doesn’t have that and it’s barely functional at all at this point.
and TikTok forced so much uninteresting content and ads that you got to a good video just as fast, and features beyond the videos are irrelevant.
TBH Instagram is far worse. My recommended reels are 100% professional babes (admittedly I click them sometimes) and my posts are like 40% ads for crazy zionist propaganda and other wacky crap like creationism (literally).
I’m not a TikTok user, but that’s like the opposite of what I’ve heard from my friends who use it.
It is dogshit compared to tiktok in the only functionality that matters - algorithmic matching of content to user.
Yeah ok it can stream a video cool. That’s not worth a can of beans in 2025 - can it give you content that you want to see when you want to see it?
The answer is a resounding no right now. Until it’s consistently serving up top notch pairings of content to user interest it wont stand a chance in the mainstream.
TikTok’s algorithm was terrible, you find good videos just as fast on loops.
Tldr take your stupid smelly nerd code and feed me cats and people getting jump scared.
That’s…honestly a fair point; a good chunk of why I never bothered with TikTok is it has some of the worst UX I’ve ever experienced in my life.
You clearly haven’t tried Instagram Reels then
But what about Canadian spyware? 🤔
We will let them pay 25% tariff, so it is all good.
I have a loops account but I have not been able to upload a video in over a month, it fails on every single attempt.
I found that any video I try to upload longer than about 17 seconds fails while anything shorter works.
Yea, but it’s very early. Backend seems pretty solid, but the client app…leaves a lot to be desired lol
Not on App Store just beta for iPhone only
What should we expect from people who voted in a rich, old, white guy as their savior.
people who voted in a rich, old, white guy as their savior.
This describes every single election except one.
That’s kind of my point. People who voted for him seem to think he’ll save them from the long string of rich, old, white people who have been doing all the harm when he’s really just the same, turned up to 11.
“well hey you can trust a rich guy who becomes a politician, but not a politician who becomes rich!” said some poor old white lady who probably shouldn’t trust either
Sure. Makes sense.
Now, If you have said something like “…an hypocrite, corrupted, convicted criminal” i would have completely agreed with that statement.
…Just saying.
See response above.
I do find it kinda funny that that the US gov. Was using “CCP propaganda” as an excuse to ban a platform of expression, and now many of those users have begun using an app that actually has a history of defending the CCP
Turns out normalizing mass surveillance makes people not care about being spied on
Sounds like you have chicken and egg reversed
Where were people’s protests & complaints when the US government were first proposing the ban?
RedNote wasn’t coughing up all the ad money and buying off influencers to screech “I’m going to RedNote, all hail glorious PoohBear!” at the time I guess lol.
Everyone assumed that they wouldn’t be so stupid as to ban an app used by 170,000,000 Americans.
Now they’ve proven that yes they are that stupid. That corrupt.
So nah. Not going back to any US based alternative. Ever. TT to Red Book. If they ban Red Book we’ll go to VK or Jaco or whatever Vietnam has going on.
Best part? It took all of about 2 hours to completely obliterate 60 years of CIA propaganda. We can see plain how much better they have it than we do. How much better life is there.
Its OK, I dont mind lower numbers on fedi. Feels more like The Good Old Days™ of forums. More people, more shit.
At least we don’t have to worry too much about bots or “karma addicted”.
I mostly agree. I do miss some niche communities, though.
Also our developers are too poor to ge oligarchs.
I used to think that the perceived complexity of the fediverse was creating a hurdle for more adoption.
Now all these fucking people are learning Chinese to better use RedNote.
Apparently convenience isn’t actually a barrier? I’m baffled why so many people are flocking to anything other than the fediverse.
I think it’s probably marketing more than convenience
I agree. You have to either be in the tech sphere or privacy sphere to know about fediverse apps. Outside of reddit refugees I don’t think anyone using the normal apps know about fediverse options or what that even means to be decentralized. I don’t think it’s really a functionality or convenience issue, we really need our own special interest groups or something to help with fedi app branding and PR. Not sure if that is even something that is crowd sourceble?
It’s marketing, but it’s also the value proposition. Average Joes don’t see the value in decentralization, privacy, or the freedom from corporate control. Although that may change under an authoritarian regime…
Exactly. I think a lot of people just go to whatever is blasted into their eyeballs often enough without a second thought as to the source. I bet with the TikTok news, RedNote probably started paying a bunch of influencers to astroturf and bought a bunch of ad space.
I doubt so many people would be buying nonsense on Temu if it wasn’t buying up every. Single. Unblocked. Ad space. Across everything.
People would be like “WTF is a Temu? I’m not into pokemon. Oh I see. It looks sketchy.”
A big barrier is the UI, the default lemmy UI is terrible.
The apps aren’t great either, I’m very techy and haven’t found one feels as nice as reddit (and the reddit app has many issues)
Normies just aren’t going to push past all those barriers
Lemmy website is decent for me on mobile and PC alike, what are your complaints?
What mobile app do you use?
I’ve tried a few, none of them are great for various reasons. My favourite is Sync The up-vote buttons are hidden on comments. Very annoying
The default website is terrible, it looks like the social media app I built in highschool for a project. You have to click into every post to see it properly.
I use photon.lemmy.world but non tech people will give up long before finding it.
And when I introduce people to Lemmy and send them that link, some literally think it’s a virus link, it looks dodgy
show me a federated system that has a bunch of cool tiktoky videos….
afaik, it’s mostly text and that much data would be a huge problemLoops by Pixelfed
IMO it is DOA because the whole point of TikTok is the feed algorithm. You’re not supposed to pick what to watch, the algorithm knows your interests. The idea of TikTok therefore is fundamentally unethical and any libre alternatives will be hindered by the fact that users want the unethical part which no developer should or wants to implement.
I don’t see why the concept should be unethical.
In practice, of course it is insanely unethical as the algorithms are designed to maximize view time which leads to algorithmic radicalization and hate spreading more quickly, but the concept of an algorithm knowing and learning what you like and selecting for you itself isn’t unethical.
It’s expensive for video though.
In other words, I have a hard time seeing Pixelfed with a high quality “benign” TikTok algorithm. It’s already possible for music, but video data\analysis is just so voluminous that, without the profitable exploitation backing it, I don’t see how they’d pay for it.
We also have to consider moderation. If suddenly everyone just jumped to the fediverse all at once…hoo boi let’s just say I bet the FBI would have quite a field day.
But then again there’s PeerTube instances that seem to be doing pretty well so…I dunno…?
concept of an algorithm knowing and learning what you like and selecting for you itself isn’t unethical.
Unless you host it yourself, you have practically given away your soul to an instance operator
I don’t see why the concept should be unethical
It’s like engineering drugs specifically targeting reward systems of the brain associated with human emotional development and socialization.
Edit: more explicit
I’m sorry, say that again?
Besides the fact that it’s quite difficult to do this non-invasively, giving anyone instant access to any amount of exactly what they want most is
dangerous(Edit: likely irresponsible, potentially dangerous, like designing escapist drugs, fine line between helping and hurting, and you must consider both).Definitely find lack of care on the part of fellow computer scientists irresponsible. I’ve rejected grant followups for thinly veiled weapons research for the same reason; i.e., potential misuse.
giving anyone instant access to any amount of exactly what they want most is
dangerous(Edit: likely irresponsible, potentially dangerous, like designing escapist drugsOh wow, how you so perfectly, succinctly described all the empty promises of Ai hype in one elegant line. 😬
I get it now
Sounds like they’re actually rolling out a for you feed in the near future
cool
tiktok
pick one
id rather learn Mandarin than Linux
FWIW Pixelfed’s been growing like crazy the last couple days
Source: https://pixelfed.fediverse.observer/dailystats
edit: loops has a much smaller userbase but has also gained active users in the last couple days: https://loops.fediverse.observer/dailystats
Not the first on the app store, unfortunately…
I understand people arguing that a lot of advocacy work is on tiktok, hence it is important; but I really wish good people can advocate on good platforms, instead of monopolistic data-hungry tech oligarchs.
Ptime example:
That’s some good humor LMAO.
