Summary
Proton Mail, known for its privacy-first email services, faced backlash after CEO Andy Yen praised the Republican Party and its antitrust stance.
The company initially posted and deleted a statement supporting Yen’s comments, later claiming an “internal miscommunication” and reiterating its political neutrality.
Critics question Proton’s impartiality, particularly as it cooperates with Swiss authorities on legal data requests.
Privacy advocates warn that political alignments could undermine trust, especially for Proton’s users—journalists and activists wary of government surveillance under administrations like Trump’s.
Yep, I moved to tuta the day Andy decided to out himself as a MAGA dipshit. The only way I’d go back is if he resigns or gets forced out. At the absolute minimum Andy Yen has shown extremely poor judgement in claiming Republicans are the party concerned with people’s digital rights. That tells me he fundamentally does not know what he’s talking about, and I do not trust Proton under his leadership anymore.
As a side note, If anyone’s looking for a VPN alternative, I highly recommend Mullvad.
He didn’t say that though, he thinks Republicans are the party more likely to fight for “small tech” against big tech in the antitrust space. You can still consider this bad judgment but it’s purely an opinion that he motivated from his point of view with a few data points.
Digital rights are an indirect benefit that may derive for breaking big tech monopolies, but nothing was mentioned.
Edit: for those downvoting, this is factual. Just go check the tweet and the reddit comments he did. If you want to be pissed at someone at least choose what that person did or said.
What are the political alignments of the Tuta CEO?
I just signed up for the cheapest paid Addy plan and so far I’m very impressed, especially since it seems to be a one-man show. The docs are good which has been a huge help, and the user dashboard website is easy to grok.
What are your thoughts on Tuta so far?
Been running my own domain from Tuta for about a year now. Had no issues so far.
It seems like a good alternative but I honestly haven’t used it enough over the last two weeks to feel comfortable recommending it to people yet. Sorry I can’t be more helpful, but there’s a free tier so there’s no downside in giving Tuta a shot for a bit.
Thank you for the response. I’ll probably give it a try since my needs are simple
Been using the free tier of Tuta for years now with zero issues. The only thing is they delete your account after 6 months of not logging in (the timer resets every time you log in). Pretty sure that only applies to the free tier, though.
Awesome. Thanks for the insight!
If your goal is basic mail, with standard features, Tuta is great. The free option is more than enough for an anonymous email.
If you want to pay a little you can move your domain over and get a bunch more features.
If you appreciate a simple interface, Tuta will be perfect. They have apps for desktops and phones as well as web.
I appreciate the response!
Commenting so I can come back to this because hell if I’m going to remember to check it if I just save the comment.
Thank you for your assistance on the matter.
I cannot fathom being that stupid to believe that Republicans are anti-monoploy when they give huge corporation massive tax breaks and removes barriers for mega mergers
Welp… Just paid them 80€ for a year and was in the process of migrating my gmail accounts to it. I guess I just lost 80€ and I’m migrating to somewhere else then…
You should be able to cancel and get a partial refund. Reach out and ask.
And also during that discussion with their support team, state your reason for leaving. That will get a lot more attention than the rest of us whinging online where we can easily be ignored.
I’m going to do this with all mail domains and account with them.
I don’t care how publicly they state their neutrality, when push comes to shove, that nazi sympathizer is going to side with the enemy and all of us who thought we had a safe haven are at risk. I’d rather cut my losses.
I’m also annoyed with how they pile so much into the service that for some of us, they’re extras which aren’t needed. I just want to simplify my email into Tuta now I think, and Mullvad for VPN. While having those together was convenient, it’s no different on my phone or pc to use two different apps for those.
I will very clearly state why I’m taking my business elsewhere.
I’m also annoyed with how they pile so much into the service that for some of us, they’re extras which aren’t needed.
I agree, it’s ever-more loaded up with crap that I won’t use. I’m a free plan user and rarely use the service. Between the never-ending nagging to upgrade that I get on the website, the discount deals that end up being “one year only then full price” and their intentional crippling of the service (# of aliases, domain support, etc) that basically requires you to subscribe to one of their expensive plans just to get the functionality of other competing providers, there’s no way I’d ever give them money. And now there’s the kissing the Orange Diaper Baby butt on top of all that. It’s going to be fun giving all these Nazi tech bro services the boot. mailbox.org is looking pretty good, unless they turn out to be AfD bootlickers.
“one year only then full price”
You can say what you want, but this is mostly the norm with subscriptions. Not only that but legally they can often index the price as well. I haven’t seen a single subscription in Europe that keeps Grandfathering prices with the exception of Old School Runescape where people claim it.I haven’t verified it
But. We still have the possibility of saying: NO. NO. I will NOT pay you for this service as is.
In Proton’s case, they said they are pro privacy. They built off that back.
Now, if the guy in charge of the ship is known to be fond of icebergs… time to find a new ship and a better captain.
It’s ANNOYING to move services. Agreed. It’s annoying to be having to fight so hard for basic privacy. Agreed.
If you don’t consider it and just comply: you’re potentially putting yourself at risk.
There is still no proof that they aren’t complying with their own privacy standerds. Just because the CEO is a dick doesn’t mean the entire company has to be a dick. If everything is properly arranged the CEO shouldn’t even be arranged to push things that go against the believes and statements of the company in the situation of an European company with the structure of Proton.
Currently I am unable to switch anyway due to time restrains and such, so I am just gonna see if we hear anything about the next audit regarding privacy.
My stance on Proton is my stance on GrapheneOS: just because the creator is bad doesn’t mean the software is bad. As long as the software is better compared to the alternatives then I seen no reason to stop using it.
Note: better can mean more privacy-friendly, cost-friendly, sustainable, nice to use, open, etc.
Oddly enough, I found the opposite to be true with companies like Nestle: the news of them killing children makes me dislike their chocolates.
The Porton Foundation is also the majority owner of the company these days which makes it a bit harder to do whatever you wish with the company
My stance on Proton is my stance on GrapheneOS: just because the creator is bad doesn’t mean the software is bad. As long as the software is better compared to the alternatives then I seen no reason to stop using it.
I think the major difference is that for a software package or operating system like GrapheneOS, theoretically people can audit the code and verify that it is secure (of course in practice this is not something that 99% of people will ever do). So to some extent, you technically don’t have to put a ton of trust into the GrapheneOS devs, especially with features like reproducible builds allowing you to verify that the software you’re running is the same software as the repository.
For something like Proton where you’re using a service someone else is running, you sort of have to trust the provider by default. You can’t guarantee that they’re not leaking information about you, since there’s no way for you to tell what their servers are doing with your data. Accordingly, to some extent, if you don’t trust the team behind the service, it isn’t unreasonable to start doubting the service.
This is where audits come into place. Currently Proton only made the result of their security audit public, but you can also get an accounting firm to audit the privacy statement. Not endorsing them or anything, but PureVPN has been audited by iirc Deloitte on their privacy statement. I have verified this a couple year by then sharing the conclusion of the report from Deloitte with signature.
Proton should do something similar and yearly and could have a lot more faith in them. An accountant isn’t going to risk his career for something like Proton’s privacy statement. At least I would hope not
I don’t know much about the creator of GrapheneOS. What’s the bad about them? I know they’re a little dogmatic, as security/FOSS folk can sometimes be, but I’ve not heard anything beyond that.
This reddit thread has a nice summary
To save others a click
From [deleted]
Wow, this is big news. My feelings are very conflicted on this.
I think it is important to recognize both that:
- He has (and hopefully will continue to) contribute greatly and meaningfully to privacy, security, and user control/autonomy over our devices and our data greatly. More than most people ever will. The work he has done with Graphene and with Copperhead before that have benefited us all. He has made great technical contributions to Privacy on Android and is a talented developer and deserves recognition and respect for that, I’m certain it was not always easy and often very thankless job. If he chooses to leave the project, losing his experience, knowledge, and dedication is a huge loss.
- And at the same time, he often behaved in unacceptable ways, is an extremely socially abrasive and often acted in ways that were not stable nor constructive, and saw anyone that wasn’t 100% deferential to him as an enemy out to get him and get grapheneOS. Many of us have personal experiences with this, and there are a couple well documented controversies as well. He did a lot for the project technically speaking and its existence is thanks mostly to him, but he also did a lot to push people away and alienate and bully people for the small things, perceived slights, or even technical disagreements, and overall contributed to a toxic and hostile culture in the sub community that harmed both the project and his own mental health. We all struggle in certain regards, and I truly and earnestly hope that he seeks the help he needs, or just takes a breather, and re-engages with the project in a more positive and healthy way. None of us are defined by just one aspect of ourselves, we are the sum of all parts, some good, some bad.
We should be able to acknowledge the good and the bad and not rush to paint a black and white picture in either extreme.
All I could tell from my recent search into FOSS Android OS’s is that they shit on competetitors like crazy. It’s pretty funny, albiet concerning, to see the official Reddit account bash on the competition.
Sure hope their praises don’t include giving your data to their heroes
They would hand over your liver for an atta-boy and a small government contract.
The Swiss just can’t help themselves
With this president flattery will get you everything. If you don’t publicly praise him he will come for you and your users.
I am not saying that I love the endorsement, I do understand it.
Proton is based in Switzerland. If anything, I get the message that the only services that are Trump-proof are based in China or France, because everybody else has lost their fucking mind.
Services in China may be Trump-proof, but they’re sure as shit not CCP-proof.
They are not acting like a bunch of unpredictable religious lunatics tho. So as long as I don’t mention Tianammen Square I should be 👍
I can see this for like Apple or Google, but…
Proton?
What beef could Trump and conservative influencers possibly have with it? And even if they did, it’s not even an American company, it’s Swiss.
The only way to get rid of those bastards is to never comply with any pressure they bring to bear, short of literally pointing a gun at you. Kissing the ring makes you one of the enablers.
But he has absolutely no reason to do so. That’s like VPNs bowing to Trump.
The lack of risk, especially when the average Proton user is actively looking for privacy/security from tech companies who bow to government, makes this endorsement even more sinister than it should be.
He literally had to say nothing at all lol
It’s bad but still so much better than google.
I migrated literally everything from Gmail around 2021. Gotta tell ya, I feel just about dumb as shit right now. I kind of understand people with those “I bought this before he sieg heiled” bumper stickers on their Teslas.
I see how moving out of the Google ecosystem could be a pain, but moving out of proton probably shouldn’t be that big of a deal?
Switching to another services for calendar, storage, or VPN should be simple. I kind of see how going to another email provider and not wanting to lose old conversations could be a pain though. In fact, that pain is what largely made me try to avoid using email for communicating with people in my life.
Either way, much less of a pain than buying a semi-luxury car only to see it lose basically all of its value because Elon is a nazi.
Check out the comment on this post by @pulsewidth, it provides some interesting perspective on this.Rescinded! Thanks for the context folks
No, make sure you read the top response to that comment. Pulsewidth omitted the original post by the CEO. Not only that, this was Pulsewidth’s first post. Not concrete proof of astroturfing, but it’s pretty sus
Mmmhm, Republicans are more likely to tackle Big Tech issues by funding them with a cold hard 500 billion smackaroos for AI research, right? /s
Gimme a fuckin’ break. D being trash doesn’t excuse this blatant endorsement of R. Never entertain the whims of the far right, no matter how sweetly they sing to you. History has taught us better.
Can’t really argue with any of that
I was planning to transition everything to proton this month. Now I don’t know what to do.
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Tbh I think proton is solid. What the CEO said is just stating a fact of the situation 10 years ago and linking it to now. I don’t believe that’s right but he posted the message 4th of December which (if I’m not mistaken) was before it was clear all the tech CEOs were sucking his dick like we saw around his in inauguration.
I’d still recommend it, the other stuff the CEO says on twitter is all very logical and positive for privacy and against big tech. Unfortunately someone says something that is remotely questionable (not like this guy has outright praised Trump far as I can tell) and sudetly Proton is a dead service not considering all the good they have done and will (probably) continue to do
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I’ll be as weird as I want. My trust in them has been eroded and that is a major concern to me when picking a company to keep my data private. In the future consider staying out of the conversation if you have nothing of value to add.
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Honestly the lesson I took away from this is to not vendor-lock myself if I can help it. Maybe it’d be better to have a domain through which you can route incoming emails to any inbox? That way you can just hotswap email services if their CEO turns out to be a cannibal or something.
Or I guess just self host an email server
That’s actually a lot more effort than most self hosting tasks. And it’s an ongoing effort at that.
Personally I signed up for web hosting at the same company where my VPS is hoted, hetzner. The cheapest tier web hosting costs a couple of euros a month and gives you multiple inboxes on your custom domain, whereas proton and gmail wanted something like 6 or 7 euros per inbox per month
That actually doesn’t work. Most large email providers will put you into the spam folder unless you are a well known server. Microsoft doesn’t even bother with that and outright throws the emails away entirely. Plus, most ISPs block sending emails from residential IPs and cloud providers block sending them from cloud.
It is not that bad. I have been running my own mail server for 20 years and i generally don’t have more problems with it than users of ‘big and known’ mail server do (it is not like GMail is perfect). And when there are problems I am usually able to tell what happened.
But this does not mean I would recommend self-hosting mail server to everybody. I am an expert, have been doing this professionaly for years. And it is an ongoing fight. It is not like I set it up in 2000 and it has been working since then without changes or incidents.
I was doing it for a while and it usually worked, but the thing is you need email to always work. I’ve since moved to paying Migadu to host my email.
Do you send mail directly from your server, or do you use some intermediary?
I will admit I did not try it myself but I was under the impression it was pretty bad with the spam filters.
yeah, I myself was already getting a little uncomfortable with how far proton was branching out. It’s a good thing that I was already making a transition to using my own domain using aliases through eforw.com
Tuta for mail, bitwarden for passwords, mullvad for vpn. You lose port forwarding.
I migrated last week. I dont miss proton.
There are other good VPN options that provide port forwarding but it’s usually at an extra cost or absolutely tedious to set up.
AirVPN, Windscribe, and another one I can’t remember. Personally I prefer the security and privacy of Mullvad but I use proton’s port forwarding and proton mail for quite a bit so the transition is gonna be annyoing…
EDIT: Removed PIA due to dubious behavior.
PrivateVPN is what I use. No ties to the big VPN corporations known, pretty open about their stuff, decent price, small company, port forwarding over OVPN (not wireguard) and no-log policy.
The problem is I don’t think they have ever been audited but also because they are obscure enough, I don’t know if there are any watchdogs for them turning over info to authorities.
Is PrivateVPN the same as PrivateVPNAccess?
No%
I understand the concern but it’s not like the CEO is sieg heiling… He is stating how things used to be and his hope that Trump will continue that trend. He posted 4th of December which was far before Trump got all his big tech chronies to sit Infront of US allies at his inauguration
Why do you feel stupid? None of this could have been predicted. If you switched to any other privacy focused provider it might as well have been them this was about. You did a logical thing at the time, as many others here did. I don’t see how any of this isn’t obvious.
Okay, can someone help me, a tech illiterate, choose a new vpn, email provider, and password manager? I’d really prefer open source.
Bitwarden is a good password manager. Can’t help with the rest.
Keepass with
rsync/unisonor a local git server works pretty well too.
I would highly recommend 1password
You might want to have a look at this site to study-up on available/recommended tools: https://www.privacyguides.org/en/ I use Mullvad VPN myself and am happy w/it. Ditto Bitwarden which works well and is cheap. I have a Tuta account but detest the UI and the fact that they don’t support IMAP/SMTP clients, or PGP, so I do my own PGP encryption/decryption using Thunderbird Mail on desktop which has built-in support for it. Also I use Fastmail as a (paid) provider (no built in PGP but tons of other bells & whistles) though mailbox.org looks interesting and is well-priced. Finally I use addy.io for anonymous aliases/forwarding and they have good PGP support.
Vpn: Mullvad
Email: Tuta / tutanota
Password manager: Bitwarden or 1password
Keepass is superior in my experience for passwords
From a UX perspective I disagree. 1password wins at UX hands down but Bitwarden is a very close second and IMO has better privacy guarantees.
Security is useless if it’s too difficult. Despite liking Bitwarden I am a 1Password subscriber and happy with my choice.
Really? I really dislike the UI of one password. I have to use it for work and it’s a pain.
Never tried bit Warden could be good who knows not me that’s for sure.
I don’t think keepass is to difficult as to make it useless. I think it really depends on the platform there are some amazing Android apps that will autofill directly from your keyboard no real work necessary it recognizes everything. Now if you’re on Windows… Yeah things start to fall off the wagon
They asked as a “tech illiterate” so I answered what I’d answer a tech illiterate person.
Keepass is good, but it’s not tech illiterate friendly.
Oh I must have missed that sorry. Then yes it’s a bit more difficult for the tech illiterate until they’ve been using it for a while
Thank you for respecting my literacy level! Lol
DEFINITELY do not go 1password. They took a massive VC investment and it is only a matter of time before they find a way to monetize it. Ignoring the fact they absolutely destroyed the app.
Bitwarden (you can host yourself with vaultwarden) or KeepassXC.
Just moved to Proxmox. Vaultwarden as an LXC from helper-scripts is so easy.
They took a massive VC investment and it is only a matter of time before they find a way to monetize it.
Can you explain this? I’ve been using the app for over 10 years and it’s only gotten better. I haven’t seen any evidence yet that it would suddenly change
Yes, in 2021 they took a $100M investment for a password manager. There’s no planet on which they can justify that valuation without doing things to significantly increase their revenue. https://techcrunch.com/2021/07/27/1password-raises-100m-at-a-2b-valuation/
If you’ve used the product for 10 years like you claim, then you should know very well the many ways in which they’ve gotten worse. A couple obvious ones off the top of my head because I dropped them like a bad habit after I saw that VC “investment”:
- they killed off any ability to purchase a permanent license key and forced people into subscriptions.
- the app has only improved? How are those nested tags working for you? A feature they had 10 years ago that they broke and never brought back.
- Performance on windows has continually gotten worse with every release for the last 8 years.
It might get worse eventually but I disagree with your condescending assertions that it already is. Later.
- they killed off any ability to purchase a permanent license key and forced people into subscriptions.
For I think $75 I used an excellent password manager for literally like 7 years on multiple platforms. As a software engineer I know that wasn’t a small effort to make that happen. I think I got my money’s worth… and out of every digital service I pay for, I find password management most critical and worth paying for
- the app has only improved? How are those nested tags working for you? A feature they had 10 years ago that they broke and never brought back.
Yes it certainly has gotten better on every platform. I don’t know anything about nested tags. I don’t even use non nested tags. But sure the whole company sucks because they removed a feature you liked. Features that get less use get removed, that’s how products work…How has it improved? Well, it’s weird you ask it all aggro like that but yeah, the search, UI, watchtower, browser extensions, ease of adding a new device, cli tool, and many tiny details have improved over the years.
- Performance on windows has continually gotten worse with every release for the last 8 years.
Funny you say that, the app went from barely usable on windows (which I rarely use) to almost as good as Mac. Then right when I switched to Linux they released a very good client on that platform, which was something I didn’t even expect.
I am not quite sure what the motivation is implying I’m lying about how long I’ve used software or my experience with it, but I’m not. Be mad I guess.
VPN: Mullvad
Password manager: Bitwarden
(or if you are advanced user, KeePassXC + Syncthing for full control of your DB)Email: I use Tuta, but I am honestly not that confident in it to recommend it, unlike the above.
Airvpn has port forward i believe.
I guess if you really really need port forwarding, you need to look at dodgy choices like that.
But unless you absolutely need port forwarding, stick to Mullvad. If it is only about torrents, consider getting a seedbox instead of or in addition to VPN.
I’ve had a good experience with AirVPN. I mean, I only use it for torrenting, but… Is there a good reason not to go with them for torrents?
I don’t think there is particular problem with torrents. The problem is, when your VPN is active, you probably send all your other data through it. That is why dodgy seedbox is much less of an issue compared to dodgy VPN. A seedbox only has access to your torrents, a VPN probably has access to all of your communications.
While AirVPN claims no logging, with prices that cheap and already having to skirt the law to be able to provide port forwarding, it’s not very credible. There is a good chance your data is being sold to someone and/or getting stolen since good security costs money.
Now there is no guarantee AirVPN has these issues or that Mullvad doesn’t, but Mullvad goes to great lengths to build their trustworthines, e.g. 3d-party audits, not even having disks in their servers to ensure logs can’t be stored, etc.
Oh, okay, I understand what you’re saying now.
Yeah, I don’t trust any of the VPN providers. There’s just no evidence that they’re trustworthy. I reach for Tor (or i2p sometimes).
I typically run all the torrenting stuff in a container, I’ve never actually used that VPN to browse. I just spin the container up and down when I want my bandwidth back.
Nice. Good to see you know what you are doing. I see no issue with this setup.
That said, most people will use VPNs for their whole system. So when you nominate AirVPN without additional context, that is what most people would use it for. Please take care in making clear what you recommend it for going forward :)
For me, the most-used Proton service after email is their calendar. What privacy-friendly calendar alternatives are there that you can recommend?
Both my new service candidates, mailbox.org and posteo, offer calendars. However, I’m in a holding pattern currently since they are German based. Fuckface is meddling in their elections now, which happen at the end of Feb. so I’m holding off to see how much ground the Afd gains.
Self-hosting Nextcloud with Calendar plugin…
gonna quickly post here, since I don’t know quite where else would be good, but I noticed sometime last year that the website, https://standardnotes.com/ (a product owned by proton) seems to use a massive amount of AI generated imagery.
also: I thought I was a fool for not getting lifetime visionary when I could, now a little less so :)
I don’t actually dislike ai imagery, I think it can produce interesting imagery. However, I must concede that is an excessive use of boilerplate bog-standard AI imagery.
I mostly agree, I think it’s good for individuals and small businesses who just need some free copyright-free (though arguably this is debatable) graphics for things. It’s not like the have the time/money to do it all themselves or get it commissioned.
But I don’t like it when >=medium businesses use it to cut costs or when it’s used for something that is directly meant to make money (like an advert or the core of a piece of content your consuming)
I use it a lot when I’m writing my notes (ie joplin/obsidian), I’ll use flux or stable diffusion for a few iterations until I can create an image that Is consistent with what I’m writing.
It can be really convenient to be able to recognize an image as you’re browsing through notes that are otherwise just filled with code or maybe a recount of the day.
I’m sure most consumers consider excessive use of generative AI to be in bad form. It certainly doesn’t exude professionalism.
Standard Notes is owned by Proton? I didn’t know it lol
I only found out since I used standard notes before the ownership thing, I suppose I’m gonna have to look for a syncing note taking service again.
Have you considered self hosting a syncing note taking service?
https://awesome-selfhosted.net/tags/note-taking--editors.html
it’s worth some consideration I suppose. so long as it’s not too resource intensive, it could be good to spin it up on my vps space
Provided you’re not in need of fully fledged powerpoints, it would be fine to run them w/ little to no resources allocated to it. It just depends on your use-case, I suggest doing a backup of some sort and try out the various options. Unless you’re setup allows you to freely try them all out in which case go nuts
I suppose I’ll look for a decent service (maybe with spreadsheet support this time) and try to spin something up next week
Ah in that case you may want to look into paperless-ngx in the Document Management section:
https://awesome-selfhosted.net/tags/document-management.html
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Yeah I definitively know which service is not getting my donations or subs this year. I’ll continue using their free service for a while until I can migrate most stuff. After all it’s all their cost. If they want to be nazis, the least I’ll be is a load to them.
Thank you for sharing this
Oh ffs, I just made the move to Proton with some stuff a few months ago. I’m really keen on switching the address out on a load of accounts.
