There may be already such a case but you and me have never heard about it and it’s probably by some chinese no-name brand.

A proper metal mid-tower case with modular front panel I/O (using Framework’s system with the USB-C converters) and modular optical drive/hard drive bays would be unique.

I think I need to give Linex a try again. I tried ubuntu in 2008 but found it too difficult to do the things I was used to doing on windows. I now have a bit more coding experience and will probably pick it up quicker

What kind of workstations?

Bummer

$1k for the base isn’t horrible IMO, especially if you compare it to something like the mac mini starting at $600 and ballooning over $1k to increase to 32GB of “unified memory” and 1tb of storage.

I get why people are mad about the non-upgradable memory but tbh I think this is the direction the industry is going to go as a whole. They can’t get the memory to be stable and performant while also being removable. It’s a downside of this specific processor and if people want that they should just build a PC

With a cheeky comparison to Apple’s nearly $5k offering.

I always think the Mac mini is just a bit too mini. It’s a desktop so it’s not exactly going to be moved around a lot so it doesn’t need to be quite that tiny and this thing is a good compromise between still being small but without being so small that it offers no upgradability.

And I know Apple says otherwise but surely that thing must get thermally throttled at some point.

Yeah that touchscreen tablet convertible machine is what has me psyched. I’m not the target for it, and already own a 16, but I could see that thing selling well. I honestly think they came out with the desktop because they just kinda felt they needed a desktop.

.

They make repairable laptops.

What alternatives were you considering, and how does the product from Framework compare?

I think the framework desktop would be an absolute powerhouse as a workstation desktop.
Think developers ( that still use desktops ), people who do raw computational power for science, servers, ai development, …

Everything except the APU/RAM/Mobo combo is upgradable, and you don’t have to replace the whole machine if the board fails.

So… storage, case, and USB C dongles?

What exactly can you upgrade iteratively?

From the laptop perspective (because the desktop is totally all about that side panel life):

1. Memory: Ultrabooks are hell, no arguments there. But many brands have increasingly allowed at least one SODIMM to be swapped out and many still no longer solder the other one. And I’ll say, from personal experience, that buying and swapping out RAM in a relatively new-ish laptop often comes out closer to the price of just paying for the upgraded SKU to begin with. So there is the logic of “I’ll add another 16 GB in two years” but… yeah.
2. Storage: Again, same. Except that they tend to not even solder down the nvmes. There are some particularly asshole vendors but they are few and far between. And this totally is worth doing since they tend to be fairly standard nvme drives or the small SSD that I always forget the format of. Rather than RAM that is only used by laptops and NUCs and costs an arm and a leg…
3. Ports: Framework laptops just use USB C dongles for everything. They have a semi-proprietary format for those but it is still, fundamentally, a usb c dongle. And, from talking to a mutual on a discord who has one, it has the same fundamental problem that USB C dongles/hubs do when installing the more finicky OSes (hi Proxmox and OpnSense) where you can’t actually access the hub capabilities until AFTER the OS is installed (the more live CD based distros avoid this). So no difference in terms of upgrades and modularity outside of having fewer vendors to buy a dongle from if you care about form factor that much.
4. CPU: Only if you swap out the motherboard which is the vast majority of the price of the laptop anyway.
5. Keyboard, display, etc: These are less “upgrades” so much as replacements. Which are good arguments for repairability but also… go actually look at ifixit’s website and see how many laptops are repairable. It is mostly just apple who suck horrifically

And just because it always amuses me and never fails, let’s price out upgrading/replacing a framework (uplacing?). I’ll assume no parts failed to keep prices simple and “You can replace your keyboard every time it fails over a five year period” is not the flex people think it is. I’ll use the intel core ultra series 1 because that is in stock and not a preorder. We are dealing with last year’s model (I think. I haven’t followed Intel laptop processors too much) so there is inherently wiggle room there, but it is theoretically fair as it is last year’s model for both of them since I had to dig deep into the framework site to find an Intel since fuck Best Buy’s website if you are trying to compare AMDs (also fuck AMD for their naming insanity).

• FW13 with Intel Core Ultra Series 1 at 13 inches is estimated to be 999 USD https://frame.work/products/laptop13-intel-ultra-1/configuration/new. 8 Gigs of RAM, Ultra 5 125H, 256 GB Storage
• Core Ultra 5 Series 1 at 13 inches. Ultra 5 125U so techincally different but arguably much better for an actual laptop. 256 GB storage, 8 GB RAM. … Eothas wept at this URL https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-probook-460-g11-16-ips-1920-x-1200-wuxga-laptop-intel-core-ultra-5-with-8gb-memory-256-gb-ssd-pike-silver-aluminum-gray/6601496.p?skuId=6601496. Estimated to be 879.99 USD

So we are already looking at the framework being about 120 USD more expensive without looking at any configurations or upgrades.

So let’s get into that hyperbolic time chamber and totally not have gay sex with the glistening man hunk known as Vegeta. Five years later, let’s consider an upgrade… to the same SKU.

On the Framework marketplace, another 125H mobo costs 399 USD right now.

• Framework: 999 + 399 = 1398 for two generations of a laptop
• Best Buy: 879 + 879 = 1758
• For a total savings of 1758-1398 = 360 USD over 5 years of getting soaked by that galick gun

Which is nothing to balk at. But that assumes that your display and keyboard held up and didn’t need replacing, you liked all the default dongles Framework gave you (which is apparently just four USB C ports… to plug into the four USB C ports on the laptop), and, most importantly, that Framework didn’t change their form factor (I am not sure if they did for the 16 inch laptops to support the “modular” keyboards). Every spare dongle or repaired/upgraded part costs money. Versus being guaranteed a “pristine” new laptop… full of massive amounts of bloatware that you immediately format the shit out of to put Linux on that.

And, obvious grain of salt, the past few times I have done this exercise it was closer to 100 USD. Framework just happen to be dumping large amounts of old stock right now for their new models so the prices are better and the comparisons are more tedious.

Again, conceptually I like Framework. And, for as much as I mock them, I actually do like the form factor for their dongles a lot. Give me a computer with a shit ton of USB C ports but also let me leep it usable at work without needing to carry around my sketchy anker dongle/dock. And I don’t really fault them too much for not letting you actually swap CPUs since that was basically something only the sickest of sickos did until the AM4 socket lasted like 40 years somehow.

But their key strength is marketing and that has only gotten stronger since they got the full power of linus media group behind them because that company needs to protect their shareholders’ investment.

And, like I said before, I do worry that this just encourages people to hoard parts. Like… anyone who has built a desktop or two has that big plastic bin full of old ram and mobos and even graphics cards that they might use someday but never will (PSU is totally worth saving though).

At least memory is soldered on because of high throughout they say.

And your phone isn’t repairable because it needs to be water proof. Your earbuds because of power efficiency. Etc.

Also, I suggest watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zB9EFntmA.

But, to be clear: I am actually not as opposed to the idea of soldered ram when you have “an excuse”. Same with phones. But framework is a brand that tries to build itself on minimizing e-waste and maximizing repairability and… hey, at least we can still swap out the side panel on their prebuilt!

Eventually most system RAM will have to be packaged anyway. Physics dictates that one pays a penalty going over pins and mobo traces, and it gets more severe with every advancement.

It’s possible that external RAM will eventually evolve into a “2nd tier” of system memory, for background processes, spillover, inactive programs/data, things like that.

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Apparently Framework did try to get AMD to use LPCAMM, but it just didn’t work from a signal integrity standpoint at the kind of speeds they need to run the memory at.

They also announced three other products (one new, two refreshes) which are still being actively developed and are fully-modular devices at low cost. If they’re “throwing away their values,” they’re not doing it very well.

It’s what happens when you go through rounds of funding.

“VRAM” has to be allocated to the integrated GPU in the BIOS, and reports (and previous platforms) suggest the max one can allocate is 96GB, or 3/4 of it.

As others said.

In this context it would be one of the CPU/Memory combinations framework offers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Ryzen_processors#Strix_Halo_(Zen_5/RDNA3.5/XDNA2_based)

It’s correct. A product with various options will have each combination of options under a different SKU. It’s a singular number that identifies an exact version of a product.

its used to mean a new product that you specifically have to keep track of. e. g if you found framework desktops in a store, it wouldnt all be sold under 1 sku. all 3 ram capacities would be 3 different bar codes

Basically another word for ‘Product Number’ or ‘P/N’ for short.

In this context, SKU refers to a variant of this product. That is the correct acronym as I understand

and some apps like that.

I’d wager a guess: AI?

Wow, that stuff looks awesome! Thanks for sharing 🙏

This comment made me double check. They’re from San Francisco: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Computer

I’d prefer to buy taiwanese tbh. 😉

Production costs are not low either, and AMD still needs to profit. AMD’s APUs are already very affordable.

Sorry, I was stating that “much like their laptops, I like the idea of these desktops.” I was not trying to insinuate that they themselves are alike.

For modularity: There’s also modular front I/O using the existing USB-C cards, and everything they installed uses standard connectors.

… but only OpenCL workloads, right?

Useless is a strong term. I do a fair amount of research on a single 4090. Lots of problems can fit in <32 GB of VRAM. Even my 3060 is good enough to run small scale tests locally.

I’m in CV, and even with enterprise grade hardware, most folks I know are limited to 48GB (A40 and L40S, substantially cheaper and more accessible than A100/H100/H200). My advisor would always say that you should really try to set up a problem where you can iterate in a few days worth of time on a single GPU, and lots of problems are still approachable that way. Of course you’re not going to make the next SOTA VLM on a 5090, but not every problem is that big.

It’s like this even if i lay it on the desk. Was always like this. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯