Summary
Former vice presidential nominee Tim Walz criticized Trump for economic chaos while taking personal responsibility for the situation during an MSNBC interview.
“We wouldn’t be in this mess if we’d have won the election — and we didn’t,” Walz told Chris Hayes. He called Trump the “worst possible business executive” and praised the Wall Street Journal’s editorial criticizing Trump’s tariff war.
Walz emphasized Democrats must offer something better, not just criticize Trump. Recently, he acknowledged a leadership void in the Democratic Party and admitted spending too much time combatting Trump’s false claims about immigrants.
Tim “Expand Israel’s Borders” Walz opinion doesn’t mean anything to me, tbh.
Honestly believe Harris had a way better chance of winning without him, with a more progressive VP.
You do know there will never be a perfect candidate, right?
Asking for one that isn’t a genocidal maniac shouldn’t be the impossible bar that you consider perfect.
I don’t know about you people, but I’m not a genocidal person, I don’t think genocide is a good thing, and I don’t believe a cult of fascists have a divine right to kill the brown people.
I don’t think it’s that big of an ask to have at least one candidate that believes the same as me in this very common notion.
yknow, i’m starting to realize that i think i respect the people of russia, and china, specifically those in the military, and government more than pro palestine people support/respect israelis, and im not sure how i feel about that one.
The Israeli public, at least 60-68% of it consistently supports genocide, even as they are direct witnesses and for the most part due to mandatory IDF enlistment, participate in it.
Most people in Russia hate their government and military, beyond some basic notion that they should be the toughest because they’re Russian. Most people in China, especially the military, have nothing to do with any alleged genocide.
But the Israeli public is different. That is why they get less respect.
The Nazis were popular in Germany for a time, the Israeli government is no different at the moment. Both populations should not be respected even a little, given they have largely chosen and supported attrocities.
The Israeli public, at least 60-68% of it consistently supports genocide, even as they are direct witnesses and for the most part due to mandatory IDF enlistment, participate in it.
Is this stat literally “do you support genocide: Yes, No” or are we talking, it’s not listed as genocide, but we’re calling it genocide because that’s the term we’ve decided to use? There’s a large semantic difference here, and you’re making it sound like they literally support genocide.
Most people in Russia hate their government and military, beyond some basic notion that they should be the toughest because they’re Russian. Most people in China, especially the military, have nothing to do with any alleged genocide.
and yet, those governments persist, even though the war in Ukraine bolsters the support of Putin in an election, where 80% of the population votes for him semi regularly, surely that population doesn’t support the genocide of the Ukrainian people? Or maybe it does, and we’re just ignoring it because it’s politically convenient. I could say the same about the Chinese government, but Chinese society is a little bit more complicated, and it’s not quite as directly influenced since most of the human rights abuses are, well, not war.
But the Israeli public is different. That is why they get less respect.
are they though? I would like to compare this specifically to the war against Ukraine, because it’s a particularly apt example.
The Nazis were popular in Germany for a time, the Israeli government is no different at the moment. Both populations should not be respected even a little, given they have largely chosen and supported atrocities.
Last i heard, the current Israeli government ISN’T popular, that’s why the far right is pushing the government further against Palestine, pushing BB into a bit of a rock and a hard place situation, because if he doesn’t he’s not likely to stay in the government for very long, and either get replaced by someone further on the right, or more popular among the public (due to an election)
In fact, if we’re judging the level of atrocity by human casualties alone, the Ukraine war is FAR worse. We’re talking in the range of 200k Russian citizens killed, some incarcerated, some enlisted, some contract. Plus the numerous Ukrainian civilians murdered for no reason. And the relatively comparable Ukrainian military numbers as well. In total we’re talking about like 300-500k people in some capacity being severely affected for the rest of their life. Most of them Russian conscripts, most of whom are ethnic minorities (because that’s why the war is popular in Russia)
“surely, it couldn’t be me who is wrong, because i’m correct, and i’ve never been wrong, surely it must be EVERYONE living in israel currently AND everyone who supports them, as defined by my schizo statistics that im pulling out of my ass and misconstruing heavily to make a point. How could i possibly be wrong?” - not a single person on lemmy, because nobody has self awareness for some reason.
The UN says its genocide. The icc says it’s close enough to genocide for the Israeli government to be arrested, every non Israeli historian with a specialty in genocide says its genocide.
And yes, the questions have been “do you support the governments actions against Gaza and the Palestinian people”, and yes those actions are known to be genocide by the people that carried them out, i.e. the general public in Israel thanks to mandatory IDF service.
There used to be 2 million people in Gaza. There’s now at most 1.2 million by most outside estimates. Deaths stopped being counted when all the hospitals, and that’s not an exaggeration, were bombed in Gaza. So no one has been counting the dead.
You don’t get to say Ukraine has it worse, because they don’t. Objectively. No part of their experience is pleasant, but it’s simply incomparably better.
If you’re an American, whether you like it or not, you participate in genocide. Every aspect of living in this country causes harm to someone else. Our tax dollars kill, mutilate and destroy yet we all are compelled to pay them.
I’m not a genocidal maniac either, and that’s why I abstained. To teach the DNC that they need to respect us leftists, and if they don’t appeal to us, we’ll let Trump in. And look what’s happened now. Walz has apologised, they took genocide off the platform, and Kamala is going to impeach Trump any day now. We saved democracy!
I’m glad you can support genocide and say it’s the only way to prevent genocide.
I don’t believe that’s the case and I never will.
We are fundamentally different species, divided on that thought; whether crossing an uncrossable line is okay to theoretically save yourself.
I will never be sorry for not supporting genocide, as you will never be sorry for supporting it. Neither of us will change each others minds, we can only hope that only one of our species survived this admin and the rise of the far right.
I don’t support genocide. I’m a proud Marxist-Leninist who will never vote Democrat, because I care about Gaza. And I’m not going to throw Gaza under the bus. Not for Ukraine, not for trans people, not even for the West Bank. I’ll never cross the line no matter how high the consequences are.
So, you are opposed to Russia’s attempt to do a genocide in Ukraine, and second time, right?
Yes, and I believe that I’ve helped saved Ukraine by letting Trump win. We taught the democrats a lesson, and tomorrow morning they’re going to impeach Trump and restore aid to Ukraine, because they realised they were all stupid when I didn’t vote for them.
I would vote for him in the generals and I will sing his praise when that time comes, but hopefully he never ever steps a goddam foot neat the generals.
No, we’d be “GAmBlIng wItH wOrLd waR THree!”
coming from someone who worked with Trump to fund the jackboots manhandling the oil pipeline protesters
Walz is a fucking tool just looking for upvotes
Gotta love those downvotes \s. Libs love capitalism/oil more than life/planet.
It wasn’t really Tim’s fault. I will never understand why Kamala decided it was more important to try to court Republicans than get Democrats excited. Democrats, and I know this will be a big surprise to Democratic leadership, don’t want to vote for conservatives.
I just want a candidate who calls out the fleecing of the American people to the benefit of the 1%.
To stop breaking everyone down to this or that identity. The Repugnacans are doing a great job of making this look like it’s about identity politics and the Dems keep taking the bait. It’s not. It’s about money and power. They are happy to throw red meat in the pit and walk off all the richer while we squabble.
She’s a genocidal cop (aka prosecutor). She has literally spent her whole life opposing leftism. Ofc she campaigns to/with republicans.
Kamal Harris voting record as a sitting senator
Policy Area Key Actions/Positions Left-Wing Alignment Economic Policies Supported Sanders’ plan for free public college, proposed six months of paid family leave at full income[2]. Strongly aligned with progressive economic ideals. Environmental Policies Proposed a $10 trillion plan to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2045, opposed fracking[2]. Advocated for aggressive climate action, exceeding even the Green New Deal. Healthcare Co-sponsored “Medicare for All,” initially supported eliminating private insurance but later moderated[8]. Strongly left-leaning, though moderated stance on private insurance. Housing Introduced the “Housing Is Infrastructure Act” to invest $100 billion in housing, focusing on public units[2]. Robust support for affordable housing and public infrastructure investment. Labor Rights Received a lifetime AFL-CIO score of 98%, indicating consistent support for workers’ rights[4]. Strongly pro-labor and aligned with union priorities. Judicial Appointments Voted against most Trump judicial nominees and supported liberal appointees as VP[8][5]. Consistently aligned with progressive judicial priorities. Kamala Harris’s Senate record places her among the most liberal senators, consistently supporting policies that align with left-wing ideals across economic, environmental, healthcare, and social justice issues[1][2][5].
Citations: [1] Kamala Harris is extremely liberal — and the numbers prove it https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4816859-kamala-harris-is-extremely-liberal-and-the-numbers-prove-it/ [2] Analysis of Kamala Harris’s Economic Record | City Journal https://www.city-journal.org/article/analysis-of-kamala-harris-economic-record [3] Kamala Harris: Where does she stand on key issues? - BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53770654 [4] Sen. Kamala Harris - AFL-CIO https://aflcio.org/scorecard/legislators/kamala-harris [5] Kamala Harris’ liberal record is hiding in plain sight https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/sep/5/kamala-harriss-liberal-record-is-hiding-in-plain-s/ [6] Where Kamala Harris stands on 10 key policy issues, from … - BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx924r4d5yno [7] Political positions of Kamala Harris - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Kamala_Harris [8] Fact check: Is Kamala Harris the most liberal member of the Senate? https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/politics/kamala-harris-most-liberal-senator-fact-check/index.html [9] Voteview | Sen. HARRIS, Kamala Devi (Democrat, CA) https://voteview.com/person/41701/kamala-devi-harris [10] Senator Kamala D. Harris (1964 - Congress.gov https://www.congress.gov/member/kamala-harris/H001075
And yet she talked about her glock while kids were seeing more school shootings than ever, went hard againt immigrants, silenced Palestinian voices, supported the genocide, and said she couldnt think of a single thing she’d do differently than Joe Biden. She ran a campaign practicaly designed to lose.
The voters deserve a lot of blame here.
You can lead a horse to water…
Any ADULT can easily see that politicians are going to be imperfect, and no single candidate is going to align 100% with your stance. Demanding that they do, or else you’ll vote for literally the worst possible option, or sit out, or vote a “protest” vote, all so that someone, somewhere will “learn” something is just fucking childish and stupid. And this will be continue to be true no matter how many times the Tone Police show up to admonish people about blaming voters. Sorry, not sorry: I blame the voters.
based and true, thank you.
Defeated Democratic candidate: accepts responsibility in the lightest possible way
Liberal fanboy: Noooo, it’s not your fault, it’s the children who were wrong!
I didn’t say Walz, Kamala, Biden or the Democratic Party in general have no blame.
Yeah, us voters are children, and we need politicians to baby us
Any ADULT can easily see that politicians are going to be imperfect
The best I can do is fall for blatant Russian propaganda and then get mad when someone calls me out on it.
TRUE I LOVE TAKING UP ONE SIDED POSITIONS LIKE FUCK ISRAEL I HOPE EVERYONE IN THAT COUNTRY DIES A HORRIBLE AND PAINFUL DEATH
this is satire, hi hello, im doing political satireIt sure is convenient how all criticism comers from russians so you can ignore it.
Kind of like anyone that finds faults with other leftists is a “centrist”, right?
Don’t you have voters to blame for your party’s decades of complete incompetence?
You’ll have to try better than that comrade.
Tim Walz explained it the other day at SXSW.
Politicians are like teachers. If it’s Tim Walz’s job to teach kids about geography, and then test them to check if he taught well, if the outcomes of that test show that half the class passes and half fails, then the blame for that is on the teacher. The teacher could have taught differently, teaching in different styles to adequately reach out to students where they’re at in life and according to their specific learning styles. He might teach the same topic 5-6 different ways to capture as many people as possible.
The Harris-Walz campaign didn’t do that. They had terrible messaging as soon as the DNC hit. When Harris brought Walz on, there was actual progressive momentum. But then Harris bent the knee to establishment Democrats, and they lost the election.
I will not believe that it’s the voters’ fault for the election outcome. If Democrats were sober enough to realize Trump’s threat and wanted to really fire people up, they would have may the necessary changes to do so.
Harris could have aligned with 99% of what I wanted, but that 1% was OK with genocide, and that should have been a red line for anyone.
So, the alternative was little d, because that’s so much better?
The alternative in every instance is always no Democrats. We already have a right wing party, we don’t need two.
There were two viable options only.
You’re being mean to me! I hate you mean liberals! You’re always picking on leftists who just want to let fascists become president
I blame the voters.
It means you never have to listen or change in any way, so of course you do.
says the guy, responding to the guy who literally voted for that fucking party.
LOL, I am a voter. Are you under the impression that I have any direct influence over the Democratic Party? 🤣
LOL, I am a voter. Are you under the impression that I have any direct influence over the Democratic Party?
According to your comment, voters are to blame, not the infallible holy party. So good work electing trump. It’s all your fault.
I agree, I’m also happy that people like Walz seem to want to give people a better option, making a protest vote even less appealing.
Nobody demanded that Harris align 100% with their stance; they demanded that she not be an absolute pile of shit of a candidate. That distinction matters.
she was actually pretty ok? The one thing that was bad about her was the israel stance, which is like maybe 5% of the voter base that ACTUALLY cares about that enough.
So first a lot more than 5% of the Democrat voter base cares about Gaza. I won’t get into the weeds, but there.
The one thing that was bad about her was the israel stance,
No? She would’ve won at least two or three swing states if that was the case. Her economic policy (or lack thereof, more accurately) was horrible. She dedicated the final two months of her campaign almost exclusively to “Trump bad” rhetoric while not promising to do anything for her constituents. I mean this woman was asked what she’d do different from Biden economically and she said “nothing comes to mind”. Status quo politics just won’t cut it in this day and age.
So first a lot more than 5% of the Democrat voter base cares about Gaza. I won’t get into the weeds, but there.
i’m talking about the voter base that actually cares enough to influence their vote over it. I’m sure if you polled the public it;s like 90% or higher who care about it at all, like 40% support israel, 60% against israel, and like 5% of those is “fuck israel i hope it burns to the ground and that palestine re conglomerates into israel” type of people.
No? She would’ve won at least two or three swing states if that was the case. Her economic policy (or lack thereof, more accurately) was horrible.
“her economic policy was bad” bro, did you see ANYTHING that trump said? Literally an irrelevant argument. Especially now.
She dedicated the final two months of her campaign almost exclusively to “Trump bad” rhetoric while not promising to do anything for her constituents.
I remember her talking about a lot of things she and walz were going to do, that was like a pretty big deal. Was their entire plan, not all of it was great, but it existed, unlike trump.
I mean this woman was asked what she’d do different from Biden economically and she said “nothing comes to mind”. Status quo politics just won’t cut it in this day and age.
yeah and? Biden had pretty good economic policy? Aside from the whole covid thing, but you have no choice there, unless you want a global recession, more like a depression. Again, trumps economic policy has been an utter disaster in comparison.
i’m talking about the voter base that actually cares enough to influence their vote over it.
https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling
bro, did you see ANYTHING that trump said? Literally an irrelevant argument.
Don’t move the goalposts. Here’s what you said:
she was actually pretty ok? The one thing that was bad about her was the israel stance, which is like maybe 5% of the voter base that ACTUALLY cares about that enough.
We’re talking about Harris on her own merit, not about Trump.
I remember her talking about a lot of things she and walz were going to do, that was like a pretty big deal.
Like? Give me something specific she clearly said she would do for the working class and a link of her saying it in September or October.
yeah and? Biden had pretty good economic policy? Aside from the whole covid thing, but you have no choice there, unless you want a global recession, more like a depression.
He did well on the economic recovery front, but he or example didn’t go after price gouging. His economic policies were a step in the right direction, not an end state to campaign on.
Again, trumps economic policy has been an utter disaster in comparison.
Again, that is literally not what we’re talking about.
centrists think “second worst” means “good”.
honestly, if walz had been managed competently, I think he’d have been a pretty good folksy VP candidate. especially if he’d kept up on the ‘weeeeird’ stuff.
harris was just a terrible idea, and she didn’t even push her strengths. it’s like she, and the people who put her there, were all trying to lose.
The “Weeeeird” stuff would have knocked Trump right out of the park.
without the genocide and harris’ being simultaneously a woman of color (alienating fascists), a cop (alienating anyone with a conscience), and an arrogant symbol of the establishment that let it get so bad? yeah, fine red mist. it was a really good strategy. and they just stopped it, probably because a wealthy donor said it made them uncomfortable.
The correct answer to that is “It bothers Trump and Trump makes Americans uncomfortable.”
Just existing as an alternate to chaos should have been enough.
Genocide is not an order worth supporting.
I’m curious, given the choices that were put in-front of the voters at the election, and considering the whole ballot, what would you suggest would have been the best course of action for a voter to take to minimize harm or even seek a positive outcome?
If your point is that it should never have come to that, then I would agree with you, but it did, so what would you have suggested voters do?
And the current situation is?
(The answer is no.)
Cool so now we have the same genocide but everything else is worse too? Awesome. Love it.
The guy who tried that and failed is telling you it wasn’t enough.
finally! I hate when peope are always blaming trump or maga or republicans for this shit when its been the democrats every time. reagans deregulation and tax cuts, bush juniors war on terror, trumps total idiocy. ALL DEMOCRATS! We need to stop fighting the republicans and work with them against our common enemy.
Republicans ARE our common enemy, at this point… Democrats have been an “enemy of my enemy” scenario for decades now, but they are LITERALLY the lesser of two evils. Howsabout we get rid of this BS two-party system that’s allowed the Overton window to go so far right? Maybe start there, not "work with cuntservatives.
news to me. Everything I see is lets fight the current administration by bitching about the democrats not quite doing enough in the past. Its only by rectifying the past that we can solve the future. do not be concerned about the present.
I partly agree with “It’s only by rectifying the past that we can solve the future”… but you cannot do that while being unconcerned with the present.
Democrats have been an “enemy of my enemy” scenario for decades now
Unconvincingly.
True… but that rolls off the tongue better than, “The not-quite-friendly business partner of my country’s toxic monsters is my friend.”
Instead of frittering away the last few months of his presidential term, Biden should have just resigned and allowed Harris to take over his role. She could have pivoted way to the left without having to undermine Biden’s agenda and that would have really sent a clearer message to the democratic base.
If voting patterns of America ever showed something consistently, it is the fact that shifting to the left in any sense never works. You can sometimes entice the public with enough vigor so they don’t focus on your politics, but outside of very rare cases, shifting to the right consistently brings some votes, and shifting to the left consistently brings loses.
And no amount of social media posts was able to change it weirdly enough.
It might have something to do with consistent anti-voting narrative of a lot of the vocal leftists, coupled with their bafflement that they consistently don’t get a desired outcome.It might have something to do with consistent anti-voting narrative of a lot of the vocal leftists, coupled with their bafflement that they consistently don’t get a desired outcome.
i think its primarily age demographics, and the fact that the voter base is stupid, i.e. votes for the wrong people.
That’s ridiculous. Kamala appealed right and she got fewer votes. We abstained and let Trump win to show her that.
In 2028, Obama is gonna have to appeal to the left in order to win against Trump.
Counterpoint: Obama.
If voting patterns of America ever showed something consistently, it is the fact that shifting to the left in any sense never works.
Sounds like a great excuse to only move right.
do you have ANY other solutions to the problem? Maybe idk, actually voting?
I did vote. For harris.
Your party responds to all sensory input by moving right and punching left. You assume anyone who has a problem with that must be a nonvoter.
good job, you actually did something! Why are you here then? Go yell at your representatives or something, nobody cares.
Your party responds to all sensory input by moving right and punching left.
bold assumption.
You assume anyone who has a problem with that must be a nonvoter.
statistically, it’s very likely to be true, the primary demographic among the progressive left is younger people, the youth, the primary voting block is older people, the elderly. Statistically, this is bound to overlap in such a way that most people out here yapping online about stupid political shit like this, are not voting.
And the “I assume you are younger than me and therefore wrong” boomer dismissal is here again.
how old do you think i am?
honestly that may have helped strategically, i don’t think biden was “out the door” by that point, but it very well may have been a good look and given some needed press time to harris.
She could have pivoted way to the left
But she wouldn’t have.
There’s no leadership void in the Democratic Party, it’s been Bernard Sanders for quite a while. Them denying this is to their (and everyone elses) detriment. Just run Bernie/AOC and let’s get this over with.
Nancy Pelosi is the leadership of the Democrats. And AOC was not allowed to become top house dem. They chose Gerry
AtrickConnely instead.AOC and Bernie will never be allowed to do anything besides sheepdogging progressives into the Democratic party. And at this point it appears they are fully on board with that.
Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries may control the official party apparatus, but when it comes to communicating and connecting with constituents and energizing the base, AOC and Bernie are clearly the only ones acting as opposition leaders.
At some point they have to fall in line and follow orders. Or fade into obscurity. It’s a truly shitty system. One long overdue for a big reset…
Sheepdogging is why Bernie’s out on the road right now.
Nope. This is on Biden. It’s his fault Harris/Walz were put into an impossible situation.
That senile old fuck was supposed to be a one-term president. If they’d spent 4 years planning for 2024 instead of sitting around with their thumbs up their asses maybe they could have run a winning campaign.
But no, Joe was too proud or stupid or both to stick to that plan. This election was lost the instant he doddered his way on to the debate stage on 6/27/24.
Lots and lots of balls were dropped. Garland didn’t get Trump in jail when he could have. Biden didn’t stick to only one term. A democratic candidate wasn’t really elected when Biden stepped down (for the record, I think that Harris was more than qualified, but a lot of people were upset that she was just “chosen”). Harris didn’t try to stand out and be her own candidate - she mostly just stuck with the status quo and never disagreed with Biden. Etc etc etc.
Warning bells started going off in my head the moment that the Democrats announced that Harris was going to be the candidate after Biden dropped out, not because I thought she was an unqualified candidate but because there was no time taken to search for other candidates. Maybe it was too close to the election to take the time to go through the rigamarole of all that but I think even a cursory effort to do so would have gone a long way towards making it feel like people’s opinions actually mattered. Biden dropping out was huge (at least to me) because it felt like an acknowledgement of the voters who had consistently felt like they were held hostage for their votes because the alternative was a fascist.
It doesn’t help either that they went on to repeatedly shoot themselves in the feet while chasing moderate Republican votes, getting other prominent Democrats to chastise certain classes of voters and breeding the same voter apathy that hurt them in 2016, and their refusal to acknowledge that what’s happening in Gaza is a genocide that we shouldn’t help Israel perpetrate.
It’s also the campaign money, only goes to Harris, and not anyone else. They are legally required to return all that fundraising to the donors if they use a different candidate
Yeah, the moment I knew we were in trouble was when they publicized that video of Obama lecturing down to some black men about not supporting Harris enough. Whoever thought staging that was a good idea needs to retire from politics forever and go find a field to stand in.
that video was so based lmao. Not every day that you get to see obama yelling at people.
Idk about based. Imo, it was hella staged, and I found it real cringe.
On your last point, I don’t think Dems could’ve done anything different. They’re clearly in Israel pockets and they can’t disobey their corporate overlords and run on a more progressive agenda. Only other option was to try hard to get the “centrists”. Incredibly disappointing as they would rather lose and go hard fascist rather than let their donors lose any money (how’s that stock market looking?).
Maybe it was too close to the election to take the time to go through the rigamarole of all that but I think even a cursory effort to do so would have gone a long way towards making it feel like people’s opinions actually mattered.
it was way too close for that, by the time you had found one, you would be weeks, if not one or two months prior to the election, with no VP, and only a candidate, you would’ve had to have started the primary at the time it normally does to pull that off, they took a gamble, and that gamble was that biden would ride it out, and im not really sure why they took that gamble, but they did, and they lost.
Garland never had any intention to prosecute trump
Putting trump in jail would’ve made America look bad. Oh, the irony.
This is on anyone who was within arms reach of Trump in the last decade and didn’t take matters into their own hands.
Yeah a bunch of people want to make excuses for 90 million people who just… Didn’t think it was important who won.
Campaign was flawed but if people showed up to vote against fascism we wouldn’t be here. And there’s zero excuse for all 90 million of them to not show up.
Edit- well, Im reading your post in a different light but, yes that too.
If you didn’t notice, Democrats were aligning with fascism.
Funny, I noticed they were the only ones running campaigns with a legitimate change of winning against the fascists.
Talking about winning against fascism and actually doing something or not the same thing, they talk a big game and then end up capitulating to Republicans.
Winning elections is the only way to keep power from the hands of fascists that doesn’t involve extralegal actions.
Which fascist is gonna keep fascism out of power, the blue one or the red one?
Biden made an appropriate decision to back out. He should have done it much sooner. But I’m not sure I would characterize the failings of Harris/Walz as Biden’s fault. I don’t really feel that’s fair.
Harris’ main draw was that she didn’t want to do anything, which pissed off progressives. She was pro-establishment and pro-status quo. She didn’t need Biden’s help to not get votes… I have no love for Biden, but the truth is the truth.
But I’m not sure I would characterize the failings of Harris/Walz as Biden’s fault.
Inasmuch as they ran as a continuation of his policy, I’d say there’s some blame to be had.
So you’re saying that two adults chose to run an unpopular and non-working Biden “plan” which was proven to not work, and that’s also Bidens fault because two completely unrelated people decided to also use that plan?
Does your brain not work?
They used his blueprint. He bears some responsibility.
removed by mod
If biden hadn’t been such a mildewy dishrag of a president, his VP might have won. Now insult me more since it’s all centrists do when people expect better of them.
And again this is about you hating Biden. Which is fine, hate him. But how long are you going to blame everything on him like a petulant child?
Next week when you stub your toe you’re going to blame him?
His Vice President chose to run for office. She chose the platform that she chose to run with. It wasn’t Joe Biden’s platform it wasn’t even loosely tangential to Joe Biden’s platform. But it’s his fault in your eyes because you feel that she stole his platform…
Go back and reread my anecdote about the police. You made it even more relevant.
Walz emphasized Democrats must offer something better, not just criticize Trump.
Biden shares a lot of the responsibility, but Harris and Walz were running on fundamentally faulty assumptions.
It’s on Biden and Garland for not throwing Trump in prison the second his term ended.
Or at least the second the supreme court said whatever the president does is legal as long as it’s an “official act”.
Amen. 4 years to build a case? January 6th, spend 6-12 months and file charges. What the fuck were they doing for 4 years?
Running out the clock.
To hell with his January 6th temper tantrum, he should be in the fucking Hague for his handling of Covid.
Exactly, and it’s the third time we’ve been betrayed like this.
Not going after the Bush administration.
Not going after the subprime mortgage architects.
Not going after Trump.
Three times, they’ve had the easiest of layups for public approval of all time and they’ve consistently fucked it up.
I’d like to add:
Not going after the Confederate states
to this list
It’s not really a fuck up when they did it deliberately. Their priorities are in the wrong place because it’s an oligarchy.
Seeing liberal’s repeatedly stumble in stopping anyone to the right, but having the fangs come out the moment they need to protect themselves from the left really shows that it’s not failure, it’s refusal.
I see the same from the left though. Great criticism… of other leftists. Then defending authoritarian shitholes with dictators, like Russia. Makes no sense to me, it’s just tribalism.
Are you comparing the political actions of the only ostensibly anti-fascist party in the US to the leftist infighting of posters online? Try organizing with leftists outside and you might be able to see the difference.
It’s kinda difficult to criticise those in power from the left when there aren’t any. Is there even 1 communist politician in th UK or america?
People, including us now, talk online and share their views. I’m sure the same would play out in person as it does online. Maybe luckily, some political ideologies seem to ban any criticism by banning anyone from their spaces who aren’t on board with their agenda. So that at least saves on talking to people who aren’t interested in talking to others, only pushing their propaganda.
That’s a false dichotomy. There are more political ideologies left of center than status quo liberalism and tankism. Most leftists are very much critical of Russia, because it’s an imperialist capitalist dictatorship.
I hope so! I mean the left should be united against Russia but that’s not what I’m seeing, sadly.
The Oligarchy will never convict one of their own. For four years, I said it was the dog and pony show. And in the end, nothing will happen to Trump. Here we are.
A cascade of failures. Beyond Joe not man enough GTFO, the DNC once again anointed a letter instead of letting the public decide. yes, Joe should never have run for a second term. Given that he did, he should have dropped out sooner. Given that he didn’t, the DNC should have had an open convention rather than putting their thumbs on the scale in back room deals.
Tim is 100% right that we would not be in this mess if they had won, but when is the DNC going to stop trying to manipulate everything and lie to us about it? They are to blame as much as Repugnacans.
Because they and R are same team. I bet it’s like lawyers who viciously go after each other in court, them have golf and martinis on weekends.
They probably realised Harris wasn’t going to win due to the amount of prejudice and thought Biden had a better chance against trump (who they’d have guessed would have been axed after his loss and criminality, but it was a cult), but then they let Biden to abdicate because there was truth in the criticism of him and the media ran with it…
At that point who else could they run? It was bad planning, not accounting for Biden’s age/health and the cult of trump.
Also they should have given Bernie his shot. They didn’t want real change and it’s been forced on them anyway, but now to the detriment of all.
Harris made choices. She could have chosen not to adopt every single one of Bidens policies. What was biden going to do, fire her? If you look back at her presidential run she really struggled to articulate any policies back then too.
What was biden going to do, fire her
If the reports are true, yes that seems to be the case. I’m not really sure what would have happened, but she was absolutely threatened into defending Biden’s legacy.
The president cannot fire the vice president.
The best a president can do is lock the VP out of meetings. Bidens approval ratings were so low, being locked out of meetings would have cost her nothing. So exactly what reports are you quoting here, lets see them. I think you made that up.Bidens approval ratings were so low, being locked out of meetings would have cost her nothing.
Hell, if that happened and we assumed that anti-establishment sentiment is what got trump elected, maybe she could’ve capitalized on that to win the election as a “new” type of politician, one willing to go against the Democrat establishment whom literally everybody hates and dig up the potential dem voters who haven’t had hope for change since Obama. Of course, this is Kamala Harris we’re talking about, probably one of the last politicians that I’d expect to pull a move like that.
Imagine Trump, or any other billionaire, saying something like this. Can’t do it? Me neither.
Turns out holding back the things that work (like calling fascists “weird”) while not breaking with some of Biden’s unpopular policies was a terrible idea… who would’ve thought? At least Walz is honest enough to admit it. I doubt the DNC will let the social democrats like Walz or Bernie take the lead though… establishment dems would rather stand by and praise Reagan while Trump dismantles the constitution.
“Weird” alienated voters. It’s an example of bad messaging that the dems doubled down on that made them lose.
They lacked a platform that promised anything but more of the same that Americans were tired of. They needed to present something new and hopeful, not just lob an insult that much of America identifies with. A suite of policies to help the working class attracts votes to your side. Calling your opponents weird attracts votes to the weird anti-establishment.
Weird plays into the republican’s hands, and it annoys the hell out of me how the dems decided to throw the election to focus on petty insults that come off as compliments to most observers.
A part of the problem is that they didn’t hold back on broken and alienating messaging like “weird”. They should have focused on talking about what they can do for the people.
“Weird” alienated voters.
No, the initial comment was fine, as was the authentic reaction to it.
What made it weird and ineffective, was Kamala and other zero charisma neoliberals beating it into the ground while screaming “you like this”.
It’s like when Dee was trying to make Instagram videos and Charlie kept fucking with her:
I said I wanted staged moments that felt authentic!
When Walz said it off the cuff, it was a good thing. When Harris tried to make it an entire campaign, it was stupid and “weird” on its own.
“Weird” alienated voters.
Oh? got any proof of that? Was your proof on fox news maybe? I saw plenty of articles praising it.
It alienated me.
Most queer people identify with the label “weird”.
I also saw pro-corporate outlets praising it.
Oh see you said it alienated voters, plural.
What a ridiculous take.
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Most queer people identify with the label “weird”.
OK. First of all, words can have multiple meanings. Like the word “screw” or “bark” or “current”. We dont need to deprecate these multiple meanings in favor of just one. In conversation you pick the applicable meaning, and if you cant thats more a ‘you’ problem. I have enough problems of my own without taking yours on too. My use of the word doesnt affect you at all.
Secondly, I will stick with the normal usage that most people use. Language is an agreement between people around meaning, and the vast majority of the population doesnt agree that it has this new meaning. Sorry. Maybe in a few years “wierd” will have a more predominant meaning that you prefer, but today it does not, and again, even if it did, the word need not mean only one thing.
I also saw pro-corporate outlets praising it.
But it seems like your memories dont match your ability to show it now. Human memories are notoriously unreliable.
It alienated me.
If you simply dont like that the word means what it means because you wish another meaning was more dominant, then I have a hard time feeling like you’ve much of a right to be aggreived at anyone about that. But by all means, be alienated if you want to. Just dont expect anyone else to make your alienation into a thing. Cheers.
It alienated me.
Most queer people identify with the label “weird”.
That’s fair actually. When I first heard it without context, I also felt kind of alienated by it.
I think you can be weird in good and bad ways, context matters in this case. I think it’s fair to call out fascists for being “weird” in the sense that they are evil, crooked and - crucially - not relatable for the vast majority of voters. The “weird” thing is about the fascists not being “like us” - and thus very instinctively not trustworthy.
At the same time it’s also possible to be “weird” in an individualistic, relatable and validating way. Most people have insecurities or fears on some level and accepting this “weirdness” can be validating and actually show likeness. I think it’s very clear that Tim Walz didn’t mean it like this.
He didn’t call them weird out of the blue, but rather to sum up his other points about their unrelatable, evil behaviors. The message was something like: “The fascists are not real, believable people. They don’t seem driven by everyday worries like us. They don’t seem to have the same kind of feelings like us.”
And I think that is actually exactly the message that wins elections in this political climate. Debating the issues is getting you nowhere if your opponent has no actual beliefs to debate against. Calling them out for being fake people with no actual beliefs is a better strategy.
Alienated which voters?
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No, weird was a successful offensive attack on Republicans that was both popular and was great at making them get flustered and double down on their weirdness (which is itself an incredibly charitable way to describe their fascist policies)
Other messaging that was very popular
https://blueprint2024.com/polling/harris-poll-positive-message-8-8/
https://blueprint-research.com/polling/distance-biden-ads-message-test-10-15/
Progressive policies that a majority of Americans support
Democrats’ Working-Class Failures, Analysis Finds, Are ‘Why Trump Beat Harris’
2024 Post-Election Report: A retrospective and longitudinal data analysis on why Trump beat Harris
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz’s Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
Just because it flustered republicans doesn’t mean it didn’t alienate voters.
I agree with the rest of your message listing progressive policies that the majority of Americans support. That’s the winning strategy.
Where’s the proof that it alienated voters? The vox article has evidence voters received it positively
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You don’t find Republican policies that dehumanize immigrants, attack women’s rights, and demonize LGBT rights weird? To put it as nicely as possible, fascist policies are weird
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You were never going to vote for Dems anyways, you keep saying alienation but you have not provided any proof. The fact that your being flustered means it’s actually working against Republicans, yes we know you are one.
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This is the Clinton-era way of thinking. A losing campaign must have done everything wrong, and a winning campaign must have done everything right.
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Bernie’s chances of running are pretty much up and over. He’s like 83. The time to have gotten him in was definitely 2016, but the DNC wanted Clinton and that got them to lose. 2020, he lost again because everyone tone deaf wanted Biden because they believed “well, he was around Obama during his two terms, he should be in because he’ll just continue what Obama built!”. They only got lucky to have won 2020 with Biden, just lucky.
I cannot see Bernie Sanders ever running again.
he lost again because everyone tone deaf wanted Biden because they believed “well, he was around Obama during his two terms, he should be in because he’ll just continue what Obama built!”.
An article I read about this talked about how DNC-funded advertising discredited Bernie not by attacking his actual policies, but via a message of “his promises are good, and you may like them, but how many voters out there won’t vote for a scary socialist?”. I think that’s ultimately what did him in; it’s impossible to make a reasonable person hate the stuff Bernie was promising (unless they think it’s gonna placate the proletariat and make them lose the will to seize the means of production or some shit), but it is possible to convince them that some unspecified “many people” wouldn’t vote for him and therefore he’d lose the election.
I don’t think Bernie will run again in 2028, but he is still relevant right now because nobody else is taking the lead. I hope people like Walz will step up and try to turn the DNC around. It’ll be an uphill battle even with the DNC, not to speak of the actual election.
The best he can do is rile people up and it works.
I think Bernie should run, alongside AOC, Walz, Al Green, and others. The primary can sort out who is truly best as president. That is the whole bloody idea of a primary, one the DNC never honestly permitted after Obama’s tenure.
The reason why the conservatives found an effective candidate in Trump, is that he was allowed to legitimately compete in their primaries. It is a stress test, and the DNC refused to allow their own primary to work as intended.
AOC has not interest though, she said it would best if she stayed in the house
“We wouldn’t be in this mess if we’d have won the election — and we didn’t,”
(Implies that if they(H&W) would have won we wouldn’t be in this mess)has quite the different sentiment than
“Tim Walz says ‘we wouldn’t be in this mess’ if it wasn’t for him and Harris” (Implies its their fault we are in this mess)
These headlines -_-
Not that I prefer straight bias but we got conservative media calling these people cutting all of everyone’s safety nets “heroes” and this is supposed to be liberal media straight misquoting for clicks?
We are in the worst timeline.
From the article:
“We have to make sure that Americans know it’s not just that Donald Trump is bad but we’re offering them something better,” he continued. “And I think that’s what we need to work on.”
That’s an admission of culpability.
I do blame them, though. They could have ridden the coattails of Biden’s withdrawal all the way to victory, but instead Hartis capitulated and palled around on stages with Republicans instead of Walz.
The failure of the Democrat campaign has a lot of causes, but none more so than the failure of leadership.
Ultimately nobody wants to touch the issue of spiraling national and global wealth inequality, but it’s destroying our economic systems and the only fix would seem to be redistributing that wealth.
Democrats need to force their doners to make concessions to the American people in order to get voters, which goes against the interests of their doners, and they won’t get elected without the money to spend on advertising that wins elections.
Both the Republicans and the Neolibs lead to an oligarchhy.
Walz emphasized Democrats must offer something better, not just criticize Trump.
Looking at the disinformation on social media I don’t think they could do much.
I saw people being convinced that Harris had positions that were compete opposite of her actual stances.
I even saw people have complete opposing view. For example about situation in Gaza, I saw:
- pro Israel people being encouraged to vote for trump, because Harris was supporting “Hamas terrorists”
- pro Palestinians being encouraged to not vote or vote for trump in protest, because Harris was strong supporter of Israel and it won’t make any difference
When narrative is already controlled by social media that already is biased toward specific candidate, it is impossible to win.
I don’t think Harris, Walz or even Biden could do anything when everything was attack against them.
We either need to make sure that non far right is also represented in social media.
Alternatively Democrats would have to use a celebrity, for example somebody like Jon Stewart of whose popularity could cut through the disinformation.
Progressives like Bernie and AOC, they are after what we actually need, but they are not immune from this disinformation, only people who actually pay attention to politics know them the rest of population can be easily persuaded that they are just “commies that want to kill America”
Pro Palestine dems were voting for Jill Stein not trump
That way part of the “not vote”. There were some that did vote for him.
Losing on both sides of an issue is the whole reason triangulation isn’t a political cheat card.
It’s purely vibe based. Everyone is just pick a choosing whatever specs of information drift their direction.
I disagree with you about what everyone picks and chooses. The reason why people complain about Mastodon as an alternative to Twitter is because they have to choose what to see, they are used that the website would choose things for them.
Social media for dangerous, because they build profile about you and they know what topics will trigger you. So people who are pro Israel will get one content, people pro Palestine get different, but both of them will tell them to vote for Trump.
This is so much more dangerous than TV, which of course could manipulate people to make them react in certain way, but at least it couldn’t target individuals like social media can.
Twitter has a chronological timeline
