“Stuck”
Imagine being stuck using something that works for 30 years.
Right? If it still works then it still works.
If the article was talking about anything other than tech/software, we’d be praising its longevity.
I mean, you could read the article. Many users are unhappy with the performance or reliability.
And a lot of people are actually stuck because the Windows XP/7 machine is attached to industrial equipment that costs an unbelievable amount of money or is just impossible to replace.
It really depends what its used for.
Anything that is public facing would never work without constant maintenance and upgrades, be it a computer OS or some complex piece of hardware.
Yup, also especially for industrial applications, requirements and needs absolutely can change, and that means having to work around the equipment. I have seen firsthand the experience of trying to get new features into ancient applications. (Made worse by the fact that we took on support for it because the original company which had created the program had gone under).
And now you got a virus and it doesn’t work anymore.
You can protect yourself from that with airgapping and backups. The bigger issue is probably that it’s becoming increasingly hard to source parts for such old hardware.
“stuck” more like happy to not have to deal with the last 15-ish years of microsoft ruining everything they previously excelled at.
They lost me when they removed the start button on the left side of the taskbar in version 8.1 (I think it was) to… Be cool with the kids (I think 8.1 was supposed to be touch screen friendly)? I don’t even know, but I went back to Windows 7 for a long while.
The backlash with the start button was so huge that they put it back on the taskbar in Windows 10 (at least mine has it and is the reason I got Windows 10). I’m currently refusing to update to Windows 11, because it apparently crashes when playing certain video games and I’m not about to have the other trash bugs that come with it, which I’ve been seeing posted on Microsoft help forums when I search for Windows 10 related questions. Fuck that noise, I don’t want to deal with it.
I have had better luck with game compatibility using proton on linux than I had with win 11
Windows 8 removed the start button, 8.1 brought back most all of the “legacy” UI features (which still persist today).
It might be. I remember buying a laptop at that time and it came with 8 and it annoyed me so dang much.
They seemingly wanted to design the entire interface around touchscreen 2-in-1s. If you went in a Microsoft store around the time windows 8 came out, they were leaning really hard into the 2-in-1s. I got a surface pro 3 at that time that I used to take handwritten notes in school, and the windows 8 interface was honestly awesome with that use case. On my desktop PC, though, I held out updating from 7 until windows 10.
Never thought I’d miss Ballmer, but here we are.
Yeah. Its a gross feeling isn’t it?
I like the little typo … c:// :)
I’m visiting my parents in my home country after many years of not being there. I’m hoping my dad’s old pentium 2 laptop is still around.
Good for them. If it works, it works. I wouldn’t connect it to the internet though.
Stuck?
We’ve got multiple tools still on Windows 2000, happily running production. They’re on an airgapped network though, so no issues.
If not for DX10 and above not even existing on it, afaik, I’d still be using XP. That was the best iteration until they forcibly made you have to upgrade if you played games (especially if you wanted to play Halo on PC).
especially if you wanted to play Halo on PC
I still giggle that after years and years of Halo 3+ being a console exclusive, and Halo 2 sucking on Windows for years*, the entire Halo collection now has a Gold rating on Linux. I have very specific memories of being annoyed for years that the most prestigious Microsoft game doesn’t work on a Microsoft gaming platform (Windows).
*God damn does Games for Windows Live suck
Instead of using old proprietary shit you could use Linux or *BSD with a vintage desktop environment and have a blast
Something I noticed is that basic users (someone using a fucking 30 y/o OS is definitely one) have an easier time with *nix because most “technical” people are overfitted and brainwashed to the Micro$uck ecosystem
Instead of using old proprietary shit you could use Linux or *BSD with a vintage desktop environment and have a blast
I’m not sure you get it.
The CnC operator, for instance, didn’t choose windows; they chose the CnC machine because it’s best at making wood into shapes they need. It came with ‘a computer’ to control it. That computer had a desktop and an icon.
You see how CHOOSING THE OS wasn’t on the list? They chose - and fucking get this - A CNC MACHINE out of a printed catalogue with a 30-word write-up. The number of CnC machines with a Unix or Linux or BSD or BeOS install on them in 2000 was - drumroll please - zero.
If you want to fix that, you’re going to need a time machine. Remember to bring your flag with you.
Go learn about ReactOS, too.
Dude, you clearly have no idea about proprietary and specialised hardware. Which is fine, but you’re choosing to attack people from your ignorance.
Don’t do that
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IBM still manufactures new mainframe computers and they will actually support your ancient mainframe from 1962 (assuming you’re still paying your licensing haha)
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the vast majority of Windows 7 and older computers that are still in production are attached to specialized hardware or industrial equipment. Stuff that costs many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.
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emulating older OSes doesn’t really solve the problem at all because the actual concern is security, not hardware issues.
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emulation isn’t perfect, especially with passthrough. Especially when you’re trying to pass through an ancient connector through a virtual adapter (show me a modern computer with SCSI)
I could keep going but that’s all I have enough care to do right now
Industrial emulation is easy to do, a sandboxed and controlled VM won’t die from hardware faults like a hunk of shit from 1993
Also there are NEW computers made specifically for this particular purpose, they even have ISA buses and shit
I don’t understand why lemmy is living in la la land, the moment you go against the narrative you’re brigaded to shit
Yes, y’all do be in fact wrong
Bonus: IBM sells emulation packages for migration to new architectures. IBM probably knows better than the lot of us.
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If a system is extremely old you can use Alpine Linux with no desktop environment
I’m disturbed that an elevator is running a desktop OS. How did this happen? Did they never hear of microcontrollers?
I could tell you the stories of W95 & XP that runs the medical world…
My assumption would be that the display is not related to operating the elevator, but rather displaying information about businesses on the respective floors. I’ve seen those a fair few times, and since they run on isolated networks or even fully local, there’s little risk.
Frighteningly, i worked as an admin at a hospitality wifi business that ran a windows box for dhcp duty. I would have to go o site, in the middle of the night, down to the basement of this hotel, and reboot the damn thing. It would die almost every week. Replaced with a linux server and never heard from them again.
I had a 486DX running DOS for writing and editing CAM programs for CNC mills, lathes, pipe bender, and a laser cutter. And for funsies, an even older Macintosh that booted from a 5 1/4" floppy that ran a CMM, (co-ordinate measuring machine). And the software for the CMM ran from another 5 1/4" floppy.
This was about 2017 before I retired as a toolmaker.
I would bet there are still a few old pieces of industrial machinery around that I duct taped together by imaging an ancient PC and transferring it to a Virtual Box VM.
There are many, many machines out there running 95 and even earlier versions. The issue is that a machine from 30 years ago is almost always still using the software that came with the machine… 30 years ago.
Even if the OS has received security patches, which isn’t even assured, the company may either no longer be in business, or charge for new OS drivers/specialized software.
In many cases, your options are literally to replace an entire machine worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, or deal with the networking nightmare that is “keep this on the network, but not on the network.”
I 4 years ago I remotely reinstalled Wonderware and necessary drivers on a Windows NT3.51 HMI controlling a mango line in Africa (I don’t remember exactly, maybe Burkina?). Not fun, there wasn’t much documentation left.
One year later I had to do it again.BART wrote a PDP8 cross assembler in the late 90s, that they still use today.
https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/plucky/man1/palbart.1.html
I use a Windows XP machine for work nearly every day. And yeah, it’s because it runs some of the most expensive equipment in the company.
Ancient industrial machines use ancient windows computers. This has been known forever. There’s a whole niche industry of very expensive ram and hard drives and other components keeping this industry going
Yeah man. Details are going to be fuzzy here, but I think it was only in recent memory where Boeing upgraded the planes in Japan to no longer need floppy disks.
Yes i still use floppy disks regularly for my cnc plasma table
At my old workplace, there was numerous XP machines still going. They were running old machine equipment, and basically served as a controller for the entire machine.
As it turns out, it was cheaper to keep these XP stations, instead of buying a completely new Hydrolic press, or whatever it was running, which cost several hundred of thousands of dollars.
One day one of these computers stopped working, and we immediately tried to get the software to work on a brand new W10 replacement. Took us a week of drivers hell, until we eventually went to the basement, found an exact replica, and swapped the HDD over.
The company, making these heavy machineries, went bankrupt in the early 2000s, and there was literally no way of getting the software to run on anything besides that original box.
There are third parties that create new software for old industrial machines for this exact reason.
At one of my old works we had a SMT machine allegedly built in 2012 which was running on XP. Worked flawlessly 🤷
I set up a 32 bit Windows 7 VM so my dad could keep using his old drawing program that was built for Windows 3.11.
It was the last version of Windows to support 3.11 compabillity.
Works well.
lol what drawing program?
Macrografx Designer 3.1:
Just a note: Windows software for controlling hardware is highly likely to assume a)direct access to the hardware (sometimes mediated thorough ancient APIs and assuming the existence of defunct expansion slots) and b) assume meatspace time can be counted using OS timing ticks (which get stretched out as modern VMs timeshare with other processes underneath the virtulized hardware). It is awfully tough to replace them sometimes.
Yeah, I suspect you gotta do something similar to what McLaren did when the special mid 90s computer they used for the F1 got too hard to replace as they broke, they built a new computer interface that was compatible with modern computers and allowed them to interface with the car
There’s still things like that on my workplace today. I think there’s some older, rarely used CNC with Win98 on the controller. We just keep spares around when they break, but that’s cheaper than replacing the whole machinery. Also there’s some XP stations running software for an industrial machine which would cost quarter of a million to replace. Some of those need access to network drives and such but they live in a strictly isolated VLAN.
And, as far as I’ve told at least, there was no option at any point to upgrade just the computers on those things. It’s always the whole assembly line or whatever they’re connected to. There’s not many companies willing to throw hundreds of thousands every 3-5 years to replace perfectly working equipment.
It’s funny, because this scenario actually happened in our CNC hall.
The guys over there were working with SolidWorks and Mastercam. I never really got too involved with their work, other than installing the software remotely for them.
It could very well have been a CNC machine that this procedure was about. I just know that they had all kinds of equipment in there, along with a hydrolic press, which peaked my interest the most because of a certain Finnish youtuber haha.
there’s some older, rarely used CNC
Me over here with a dirty mind 100% positive that I’m not using “CNC” the same way you are. I don’t know what your way means, but my way is more fun.
CNC—computer numerical control, where a computer makes the cutty/smushy/printy parts move through meatspace.
CNC—computer numerical control, where a computer makes the cutty/smushy/printy parts move through meatspace.
I’d like a law that software / hardware companies who file for bankruptcies must release the source / files for their tech to an open source repository.
If you are a big company there are often ESCROW agreements for things like this. I have encountered the “data dumps” from time to time and whilst it’s “better” it’s not ideal. Half finished documentarian, virtual machines of mis-configured OS installs… it’s almost as if it was just a straight copy of the development environment as it was just as they made the final version of the software…
But it’s better than nothing.
Main issue I can see with this forcing open source would be libraries and frameworks licensed from others who would likely still be in business and wouldn’t agree to those parts becoming open sourced. See also WinAMP https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/16/opensourcing_of_winamp_goes_badly/
I like that idea bit it’ll never fly. That software is an asset. A bankrupt company needs every asset to be sold to cover as much percentage of their debt to their vendors as possible. I’ve been in a company that went bankrupt and I’ve been the vendor of a company that went bankrupt. Being the vendor was the harder experience.
To bad
I’m sure it makes the bean counters happier to have another asset valued at X amount, but in practice the software will just be locked in some vault where it won’t do anyone any good.
Its an instance where the number on the screen doesn’t actually correspond to any useful economic activity.
That idea often comes up in these discussions and I’ve never really had an argument against. Best I got is that parts of that software may have moved to more modern stuff that was purchased by another company. But that’s a damned thin excuse not to implement this.
Yup. Take backups, have spares, and keep it off the Internet and it’ll work just fine.
Pro tip, you can get IDE to CF adapters if you want to put an SSD in those old machines to really see them fly. Just be aware that they don’t have nearly as good write durability as a real SSD, so keep write heavy operations on the HDD.
You can get industrial grade CF cards that use SLC memory. They have much better write endurance than normal CF cards.
Yeah, and as long as these things never touch the internet, there really isn’t an issue.
I would still be using Windows 7 if it was safe to connect to the internet.
I can’t believe government systems are just open to cyber security like that.
Are there not cyber terrorists for some teenager that has tried to do anything with these unsecured systems?
Why would Windows 7 not be “safe” to connect to the internet? Do you understand how any of this works?
Lemmy is overloaded with people that puff up and want to present like they know things about tech, when they know basically nothing.
Get a hardware firewall, get basic safe practices in place, don’t do basic user operations as admin, and configure shit correctly. If you think that your OS is there to protect you, you are a tech foooooooooooooool
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I just connected my Windows 7 machine to the internet and two Russians jumped out my serial port! One is holding me down while the other one is stealing the CPU from my washing machine! Send help!
Well see the problem is you didn’t hot glue the cereal and milk port shut dummie
I hope they aren’t the hackers known as 4chan!
Well one did fuck me in the ass while the other one stole my favorite underwear right out from the delicate cycle. Total animals.
No, and that is saddly the standard these days. Its all just bullshit sales tatics and a weird take on what risks are and are not involved with legacy tech.
Like dude how am I supposed to order burgers through skip the dishes if I don’t have Windows 11 and a 64 core CPU with 256GB of DDR18 super RAM running terabytes of vibe-coded AI slop!???
Just slap some bit defender on it. That’s all that we have to do with windows 10 and we’re all good to go. Hey if Linux can run on the same box for all these years and be safe theres no reason why any windows system can’t be safe with a simple add on.
Windows 11 is just a tmp chip added to board
Srsly that is all. Something smaller than a thumb drive changed and they are trying to convince the world to make more waste. It’s fucking stupid. Microsoft can eat fat ass.
