It might be understandable if you expected all applicants to already be in the USA because then the “correct” percentage would be the percentage proportional to their share of the population, but since several USA universities are in the top schools worldwide then clearly they’re going to accept the most qualified applicants from all over the world. If anything, the fact that only a fourth of the students are foreign and not more is a clear bias from the school admin.
since several USA universities are in the top schools worldwide then clearly they’re going to accept the most qualified applicants from all over the world
Only for teaching and research. The only reason for undergraduates to be foreign is because they pay more.
‘Merit’ is perhaps not the defining factor, rather ‘money’. Or have you guys forgotten what ‘Ivy league’ actually means in the confusion.
People making lesser than $200K (even foreigners) don’t pay tuition at Harvard. Just checked and all other Ivy League schools similarly offer need-based aid except two.
If you get in by scholarship, which is not how most people end up in these universities
have you guys forgotten what ‘Ivy league’ actually means
“Planting the ivy” was a customary class day ceremony at many colleges in the 1800s.
The “league” part is related to Athletic events between schools.
What was your point?
The ‘Ivy league’ of universities are elite schools, for the elite.
I mean, it’s more nationalism. Not all conservatisms have been nationalist, and not all nationalism is conservative.
The Nationalism usually ends when they want cheap labor. Then it’s okay for foreigners to come in, unless they advance their status through hard work economically and socially
That’s actually pretty unusual in the big picture. I’m guessing you’re North American, maybe European? In east Asia, no such thing ever happened, and even in the West, historically (pre-WWII) immigration and free markets were championed by the liberal parties. Ditto from what I know of conservatism in other regions.
In that case they wouldn’t be complaining, most of the international students are in grad school aka some of the cheapest labor available lol.
Until they graduate
Yes, but you assume they know literally anything about the academic system at all. They think anybody who works at a university is an “elite”, and is therefore somehow being treated better than them.
All nationalism is conservative by definition. Nationalism is based on order and cultural/national idealized traits which are the hallmarks of conservatism.
Nationalism and communism have had pretty heavy overlap over the years, even if it didn’t start that way. If you accept communism as being possibly conservative, sure, I guess you could argue that.
Dog, “Communism” as practiced has always been (or at least quickly devolved into) authoritarian conservatism. Idk how that is even a debate. We have not had a successful communist movement yet.
Depends whether you’re talking about Marxism or whatever the fuck the USSR etc. was doing, which was a very different thing.
they forget often that women, people of color, etc at one point were “dei” to someone, too. their family, on coming here, was “dei” to someone else already here.
the nation they want is one where genocide is ok, women are nonpersons, young women are brides, and people of color are slaves to be used for profit.
Thing is, this isn’t a “gotcha” to them. Their default assumption is “American = more qualified than anyone else” because they’re goddamn ignorant racists.
No one who is not American will ever be qualified in their eyes.
I don’t think that’s the assumption. This sounds like someone planted in their head that there’s a shortage of everything and Americans can’t get things because foreigners do. The thing about studying abroad is, that Americans do it in other countries too. It’s an international exchange. If Harvard stopped taking foreign students, they would indeed study in other countries and less Americans could study in those countries as a result, keeping the total number the same.
I grew up in red state poverty, moved to the west coast, and people up here genuinely do not understand what it’s like to live somewhere that sees travel as a bougie thing. I talk about how my parents couldn’t afford to send me with my class on the senior trip to europe, the first question that gets asked is why I couldn’t get a job and save up, not understanding I was childcare and housekeeping for my family while the adults worked. It’s not just coming up with the travel costs, it’s also coming up with the money to hire out replacements for the services I provided for free.
I’m privileged I could test high enough to get into a school that had a senior trip to europe, the public school barely got normal field trips. It’s not hard to understand why the person in OP would assume exchange students have access to a higher quality of life than them, they can clearly already afford to travel.
And by American they mean whatever the fuck they want it to mean
White. They want it to mean white.
harvard did get sued over for denying asians, because they felt that “whiteness” needs to come back to school.
Sometimes they want specific whites too, or they aren’t white, and have other racist desires.
Sometimes, quite frequently, it includes themselves and they are blissfully unaware of it until it bites them.
I mean to be fair, don’t Universities usually prioritise foreign students because they pay through the nose?
Foreign students pay out of state tuition, out of state fees, they have to have student insurance.
They have to provide proof of financial ability for the sum of THEIR ENTIRE PROGRAM be it 2 or 4 or 6 years etc. (As in, you don’t need to show bank statements showing that you have enough money for the semester, or the year, no, the ENTIRE program)
They can’t apply for financial aide.
They CAN sign up for a payment plan but the end sum is the same.
Most aren’t allowed to work because the program must require work such as labs etc. un order to get permission, and then off campus work is strictly illegal.
And THEN all of that, every step of the process is dependent on office yahoos who may or may not be diligent enough to get your papers processed in time for deadlines.
I’m dealing with a lot of this for getting into Swedish university. I had to provide proof of finances which is about $1100usd/no for 2.5 years. I’m basically full throttle on applying and I may not hear back before school starts. I have some leeway but I’m lining everything up as if I’m going to get there on time so we’ll see
Harvard is private, there aren’t out of state fees. They do pay significantly more than American students, which is why universities are fine with ignoring the rampant cheating from foreign students.
As if the American students aren’t cheating equally as much
Not nearly to the same degree, and most colleges have no problem kicking out domestic cheaters.
not true, because foreigners pay alot more in tuition than domestic students, thats why they are willing to ignore cheating, because of how lucrative a single foreigner brings in.
Foreign students pay more, so they subsidise others, and justify increased numbers of places then available to domestic students.
they dont prioritise, they wont get advanced dates to pick classes, it all goes to undergrads, and vets. they JUST PAY TON more, and universities do recruit from other countries to come here.
God knows if they needed a medical procedure and the most qualified doctor was in France or China or anywhere, they would demand that they should be treated.
If a foreigner blocks an American from using a drinking fountain when they’re thirsty, the foreigner should be immediately executed and the fountain should be marked as whites only… oops I mean Americans only.
/s
It’s the conservative ideology: they see everything as a zero-sum game. If anyone gets something, whether it’s food stamps, medical care, or a place in a college admission, in their minds, that means it must’ve cost somebody else that thing.
That’s just not how the world works
Well they definitely weren’t taking his spot at Harvard, that’s clear
Its a private university you know, they can enrol anyone they like, they don’t “owe” anyone anything.
You forget: conservatives believe that they are entitled to whatever they want
Conservatives are perfectly capable of understanding positive-sum games when they expect the privileged in-group to be the benefactor. What is a labor contract, if not a positive-sum game where the corporation sucks up all the positive gain?
Game theory as a cental tenet of the human condition is a liberal concept, which conservatives will happily discard if it doesn’t suit them. Conservatives may cloak their disapproval in the guise of liberal concerns so that they’re in a stronger debate position in liberal-dominated social circles, but what they’re really upset by is the negation of the conservative world order - a strict hierarchy with narcissistic men at the top of clearly delineated nations, struggling for dominance through pettiness and violence.
They will accept any negative sum game, they will ruin their own livelihoods and their own lives, if only it helps sad little kings of sad little hills.
See it’s descriptions like that that make me think conservative ideology is actually a mental health issue, not a political one.
They will accept any negative sum game, they will ruin their own livelihoods and their own lives, if only it helps sad little kings of sad little hills.
I’m reminded of that book about Authoritarian Personality Types. They did like a model UN / Civilization game kind of thing, where the players represented different countries and could make decisions about policy, war, and so on. There were two groups. Unknown to the players, the people running this experiment put all the people who scored high for authoritarian personality in one group, and everyone else in the other group.
The group with low authoritarian personality scores? Basically everything was fine. They solved the ozone layer crisis. They were solving world hunger. One guy tried to be a dick and the rest of the group brought him in line.
The high authoritarian guys? Nuclear apocalypse. They made them sit in the dark for five minutes to think about what they’d done, and let them have a do-over. They still did a shit job. Petty squabbling. Stealing. Out of control climate crisis.
I don’t think there’s an ethical way to do this in real life, but I do think if you just didn’t allow people with that kind of personality to have any real power, we’d all be much better off.
It’s also possible i mangled the story because I rewrote it here from memory, but I believe it was in this book: https://theauthoritarians.org/
also being hypocrites when they are frothing at the mouth about food stamps, while they are using food stamps and medicaid themselves. probably the most common diseases amoung conservatives is type 2, and heart disease which also related to having type 2 diabetes, being a very expensive disease. only type 1 is more expensive, but thats a seperate cause.
The moment that you call them out on hypocrisy, you’ve already lost. In conservatism, hypocrisy is only a problem if it can be used as a bludgeon against an opponent. Otherwise, it’s a privilege or something to use to rub it in the face of the out group that one has power over them.
The ideology is fundamentally about rigid socioeconomic hierachies that allow cognitive loads to be outsourced to one’s “betters” and power to be exercised over those lower in the hierarchy. The ideology is almost completely opposed to meritocracy - one is supposed to know the station that they were born into and not try to reach too high. And a fun thing that many moderates and center-left folks still don’t get is that conservative morality is based upon the person and their standing in the hierarchy, not their actions (unless they oppose the hierarchy). This is why they don’t give two shits about electing a convicted felon and rapist. And this is also a major part of why neoliberal centrists do everything that they can to prevent laws from applying to said felon and rapist - as someone high in the socioeconomic hierarchy, he’s supposed to be above consequences for any actions, the laws only apply to their “lessers” (plus, allowing them to be applied would put virtually every career politician at risk of prosecution for the crimes that they’ve committed).
ask them if foreigners buying American products is denying those products to americans
Don’t give them another idiotic justification for the tariff wars.
That’s a bad comparison because it’s generally easier to scale up production lines than it is to increase university capacity.
The most expensive part of product development is the R&D, because that’s where all the university grads go. Manufacturing, on the other hand, can often be automized, and generally only requires basic education. University educators, on the other hand, usually require at least a PhD, and class sizes are limited not only by the number of teaching staff, but also available classrooms, dorm rooms, and, depending on the subject, lab space, all of which is very expensive.
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Foreig*ner
foreigneR with a hard R
farnur
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I tend to hear fer-uh-ner
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Nobody tell this guy he’s advocating for DEI, he’ll have a stroke.
I thought the one saving Grace to American Healthcare was that you get treated no matter what as long as you’re willing to go into crippling debt
Well damn!
In my many years on this fucking planet, my conclusion is that Conservatives, in many countries, are either selfish (this includes racism I think), gullible or rich. Just takes one, but a mix is not rare at all.
I also thing those traits come or are caused by a lack of introspection, self-awareness or empathy. Not sure what is it exactly, but you can smell a conservative from across the street…
“Rich” is just “selfish” with luck added to it.
To clarify…my concept of “rich” is somebody who has a lot of money, and the majority of it isn’t from a cash salary. Except for the CEOs with 7-digit (or more) cash salaries, not even trying to hide it by a modest salary and a bunch of stock and non-cash perks. Fuck those guys too.
You’re right, being rich basically means that you are selfish and made it.
someone tell this person that something like %90 of US science is done by foreigner scientists and immigrants
Its also as it happens the defining trait of a cluster b disorder.
I search things so others can be lazy.
Cluster B things:
Cluster B disorders are marked by inappropriate, volatile emotionality and often unpredictable behavior. The disorders in Cluster B are antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, and narcissistic personality disorder.
A and C are also things.
Doing god’s work.
Cause God doesn’t do fuck all
Well now hang on a second there, buckaroo! There was that time when he worked for 6 days straight! And let’s not forget the time Jesus died - well, for a few days anyway, before he got bored and wandered off - so that God could forgive us for existing after he created us! And then don’t forget the… wait, I’m sure there must be something else… anyway, for all that stuff, you have to be eternally grateful and heap praise on him and grovel on your knees for all eternity. Enjoy your free will!
Narcissism is dead center of cluster b They are always selfish and always play the victim. They only show kindness for recognition and attention. They lack empathy. Its the defining hallmark of maga. The term DARVO exists because of them. Narcs in particular are almost universally against any form of mental health treatment. They fear exposure but more than that they fear their victims will discover what they are. The source of their problems. No narc will seek out mental health treatment.
A list of narcissistic traits
- A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (making themselves appear impressive)
- Need for admiration
- Fantasies about power, success, beauty or an idealized vision of love
- Sense of entitlement
- Belief of being special, unique or high-status
- Lack of empathy for others
- Tendency to exploit others
- Arrogant behavior
Does this remind you of a certain group in the US?
That 1 to 6 percent is wrong. What is said is 1 in 6 or 16% of the US population. That is also hard to prove due to narcs fear mental health treatment. The actual reported amount is .5% of the population. The statistics for that are interesting though.
- 2–6% of those seeking help from mental health clinics
- 6% of forensic analysts
- 20% of people in the military
- 17% of first-year medical students
Note that the groups in the list above are mostly in a place where a mental health evaluation is pretty much required. The most discovered being in the military where its certain you will get a mental health screening to get a security clearance. That number strongly supports the 1 in 6 statistic with the real number probably being 1 in 5.
Just imagine the world we could have if these people were identified and ignored when it comes to the common concerns we all share. Of course you can bet they would violently oppose this.
I pulled those stats from this site. It matches what I’ve read before. Unless you have been raised by a narc or somehow stayed in a relationship with them its hard to understand how bent they are.
https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/mental-health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/npd-statistics/
I hope we figure out treatment for this condition at some point.