Itt, people defending cars in fuck cars
You may not quite realize for how long roads are impassible to all traffic in northern states. Where I live, a couple hundred miles south of Grand Rapids, the snow and ice still make roads entirely impassible for a total of a week or so every winter; it takes the coordinated effort of hundreds of salt trucks and plows to get it cleaned out enough to drive, bus, walk, or bike on. Then that same effort has to be expended again a couple of weeks later.
Piping existing waste heat underground into a system like this, when the road is uncovered for repair anyway, would make a lot of sense for high-traffic areas so that plows can focus on other locations instead; it would also reduce the salt budget and plow fuel budget, and reduce the maintenance budget for cleanup and repair due to salt damage.
Going even a little bit further north, this would likely be even more effective. In some Michigan cities, roofed streets make economic sense; this seems even more cost-effective and less likely to require heavy repair.
Bike lanes, public transportation, roadway maintenance, and snow & ice clearing are all expensive. None of them have to turn a profit.
Piping existing waste heat underground into a system like this, when the road is uncovered for repair anyway, would make a lot of sense
They’re already doing this in Holland, Michigan.
https://www.cityofholland.com/879/Snowmelt-System
The waste heat comes from their power generation.
Nice. Holland seems like a pretty great place.
it is!
The part that you’re forgetting is that in tops ten years this won’t be a problem anymore anyway as nothing will freeze there anymore by then, because of all the cars (in large part)
In 10 years weather patterns will be more extreme, and might feature both worse blizzards and hotter summers.
We really did a lot of damage calling the phenomenon “global warming” back in the 90s, didn’t we?
How about “global we’re fucked”
Thumbs up for most accurate
No, I think we did damage when we stopped calling it global warming when it was applicable. The whole planet is getting warmer, which creates changes in climates, and eventually destabilizes and then collapses existing climates.
Global warming is what is causing climate change, and humans are what is causing global warming.
Yeah, but nobody listens to the whole explanation. They just hear “everything will always be hot, but it snowed just last February, so obviously global warming is a hoax.”
Yeah; trains that can be their own ploughs would be communist.
Trains would definitely be a great choice. But in a lot of places in the midwestern US, the economic realities of fixed transit infrastructure are tricky.
Not impossible. I’m definitely not saying that. But they’d require more regulatory steps than a robust bus network, for instance.
Tell that to the pre world war two united states, porphyriato era mexico, and literally siberia.
I’m so glad roads are flexible and free.
Yeah, I know. But the last two were accomplished largely by fiat. Which should be impossible in the US, though…you know.
And the pre-WW2 US had the advantage of essentially being pre-suburbs. Now sprawl means that the cost of adequate rail connections increases exponentially while the tax base increases linearly.
Again, like I said before, this is not impossible. But it will require a concerted effort to reverse a century’s worth of underinvestment in urban areas, white flight, and stigmatization of multi-family living; and right now, we’re doing the opposite of all of those things.
Im glad the cost of car capable roads and their maintenance, plus fuel and vehicle subdidies, stays the same no matter what. That’s so lucky.
No, of course they don’t stay the same. I’m not asserting that at all. In fact, that’s a big problem in a lot of places with huge road networks and proportionally too-small tax bases. But they’re already there, and upkeep is cheaper than building new.
Is it?
Snow–free roads seem like a beneficial thing for most modes of transport though.
This is the most inefficient way to remove snow. There are other options.
Is it though? I’d be curious to hear a more efficient method… Certainly, mobilizing a fleet of snow plows and salt trucks isn’t more efficient in any sense of the word.
Yeah, it actually is more efficient to plow. It’s grossly inefficient to melt ice into water.
See this xckd what if: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYf9-xfm6t8
It starts by using a flamethrower (because the series is supposed to be about silly questions taken seriously), but it eventually converts everything in terms of joules. That can be easily converted into the necessary electrical output. Which is a lot of electrical output. Just a sick amount of energy.
Plowing is easily better. But yes, salt is an issue all its own.
I think the xkcd was Moreso a Proof that melting large existing quantities of snow is incredibly difficult. If They’re proactive with it and start running it before the snow pours then I’d assume its a lot easier to melt comparatively smaller quantities of snow over a large hot surface area.
I do agree that this requires people be smart and proactive and we haven’t seen a lot of that lately. But hey, this is something they’re being proactive about. Though it seems a little strange to assume they won’t at least test and use the new expensive infrastructure they put in, no?
The power use is exactly the same. You are melting the same quantity of snow, but over a longer period of time.
In fact, it might be worse to pre-warm, because a lot of power will be wasted into the air.
Dog, you can’t be lecturing people about their lack of understanding thermodynamics, and then mix up power and energy.
This is a pretty simplified and reductive take. How much electricity does it take to power a snowplow that can weigh as much as 30 tons with salt for all surface street miles? Is the freeze-thaw-freeze cycle plus weight damage to the road more efficient by cost/resource use? What about snowbanks as a hazard and visibility obstruction?
And that’s putting aside all the ecological damage salt causes or that these systems can often recycle waste heat. Your video about a car traveling highway speeds melting multiple inches of snow isn’t a gotcha for a completely different situation.
A Manhattan city block, on the short end of the rectangle, is 264 feet. A typical road lane is 12 ft across. Assume two road lanes and 4 inches of snow, getting 2100 cu ft of snow.
Using this snow weight calculator, fresh snow of that size will be 6,589.4 - 9,229.4 lbs. Let’s take the midpoint of 8100 lbs. That’s 3 million grams. And from here on, I can do the rest in metric.
Assuming it’s at 0C already, it takes 334 Joules to melt 1 gram of snow. It will take 1.2GJ to melt the amount above.
There are electric snowplows being tested in Norway with 1000 kwh battery packs. That’s 3.6 MJ. Quoting the article: "In light to moderate snowfall and temperatures as low as minus five degrees, the truck covered a total distance of 293 kilometers (km) at an average speed of 47 kilometers per hour (km/h). "
Yes, snow plows are more efficient. It’s not even close. You can chop off orders of magnitude and it’s still not even close.
I really, really need people in this thread to understand thermodynamics. Melting ice takes a fuckton of energy.
Maybe these can be useful to hybridize the system, where you plow normally and then melt the little remaining to avoid the use of salt. As a total replacement, no. That’s a laughably bad idea.
You’re really caught up on energy efficiency, civil engineering is not just thermodynamics. Energy is becoming incredibly cheap, before the current administration derailed our energy sector, we were on track to hit $0.03/kWh for utility scale renewable power by 2030. For reference, that’s about $10 to clear that city block.
And again, systems like this and the more famous one in Holland MI are generally run on waste heat (from a power plant, wastewater treatment plant or datacenter), so that math doesn’t even apply. Looking only at energy cost leaves you tripping over dollars to save pennies.
The real costs are and always have been infrastructure. Yes, it’s not possible to use this as a drop-in everywhere. It highly depends on the usage/wear of the road, space constraints, upfront cost of installation, maintenance, access to a heating solution, etc, etc… Even with this hydronic layout the main costs are the transmission lines, the cost to heat them is minor.
It’s very weird to see so much resistance to this in an anti-car community, as if pedestrian and micromobility infrastructure doesn’t need snow removal too.
Energy is becoming incredibly cheap
Not an excuse for wastefulness. The numbers here are so great that a good sized city would need a nuclear reactor brought online just for this.
systems like this and the more famous one in Holland MI are generally run on waste heat
That’s fine if it’s available. It’s usually heavy industry that’s providing that. If you don’t have a convenient heavy industry to provide that, then move on.
It’s very weird to see so much resistance to this in an anti-car community, as if pedestrian and micromobility infrastructure doesn’t need snow removal too.
What of it? There’s perfectly good plows for walking and biking paths, too.
Judging by that picture, pedestrians can get fucked though.
Judging by that picture, pedestrians can get fucked though.
A picture can be deceiving.
That picture is of work being down on a part of Lyon street south of DeVos Performance Hall and Convention center, between Monroe Avenue and the Grand River.
(Don’t let the name fool you, DeVos Hall and DeVos Center are owned by the city. They’re just named after the billionaires who paid a chunk of change for its construction and subsequent renovations.)
The reconstruction there is to make the area much better for pedestrians. There used to be a some parking along that street, which I think when the work will be finished will be purely for valet service for the hotel on the south side of the street. That part of the street has been at least partially closed to cars for a while, even though most of the work is done. And I wouldn’t be shocked if those sidewalks are already heated.
As I said elsewhere, they’ve added a really nice seating area at the end of the street (you can’t really see it in this picture because it goes down toward the Grand River). This also better connects Monroe Avenue (where the picture is taken) to the walking bridge behind DeVos Hall that goes over the Grand River to the Gerald R Ford Presidential Library and Museum. Just across the street from that is the Grand Rapids Public Museum, with yet another pedestrian/cyclist only bridge back across the river.
Just behind the camera and about a block south is Rosa Parks Circle, another pedestrian focused area with safe access to several restaurants with outdoor seating and the Grand Rapids Art Museum.
In short, this is a very walkable part of town. It isn’t perfect, but it’s far from “pedestrians can get fucked.”
Also as I stated elsewhere, heating under the street like this can prevent the accumulation of snow which would be plowed onto sidewalks or bike lanes, and the accumulation of ice which would be treated with salt that would then run into the Grand River. It’s a very good solution for the specific problem faced by this city.
Grand Rapids isn’t the most bike-friendly city, but it’s also very far from the worst. I bike through it somewhat regularly, and have only come close to dying once (while biking over the speed limit on Lake Drive in East GR, but not fast enough for one asshole who decided to pass me illegally and almost got hit).
We could certainly use more bike lanes, but we have some good trails in Kent County.
This method of snow prevention is awesome when the weather is right. You keep ice and snow from accumulating in the first place, so it doesn’t need to be plowed and end up blocking the very sidewalks and bikelanes we want. And it also means you don’t need nearly as much salt.
It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s not a bad one either.
Edit: Also this is near an area that is being redone to be largely pedestrian-focused. Cars have been cut off from a good chunk of that road I think, the parking garage exit that goes onto that street has been closed for over a year now. Maybe it will reopen, but regardless, they’ve added a lovely little sitting area down that street. And just down that street where this is shot there’s a lovely walking bridge over the Grand River to the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library/Museum, which is just across the street from the Grand Rapids Public Museum, which has yet another walking bridge (the Blue Bridge) over the Grand River back to this side.
In other words, this is a very walkable part of the city. Again, not perfect, but better than lots of places.
How long until those water lines are rendered useless by street cracks?
Probably longer than we’d expect, because the street will crack less if it’s kept at a consistent temp?
Its usually a result of shifting ground underneath the street that causes cracks. The street should be deisigned to prevent regular temperature changes from causing damages, expansion joints for example. If anything this could actually increase the rate of cracking if the melt water infiltrates underneath and contributes to freeze/thaw damages.
Sauce? This sounds fascinating, and very bizarre based on what I know about Michigan.
written by someone who has never been to michigan.
fyi, Michigan is a peninsula surrounded by the great lakes… it has it’s own special snow….
(see also, lake effect snow).You want the real special snow? Come to Salt Lake City
oh the city where all the streets are numbered according to distance from the Morman temple?
nah….
i reckon the salt lowers the freezing point of the lake so it can get colder, eh?
Yeah, but it’s not that special. Heated surfaces like this are ungodly expensive, both to construct and run.
Source: I priced doing this for my driveway.
Sure, but does your driveway have traffic on it day and night? Do you have to pay $50+ per hour to clear snow from your driveway? Will several vehicles and people and potential pedestrians be injured if a car slides in your driveway? What about maintenance costs associated with fixing potholes in your driveway?
I think the many added logistics associated with removing snow from a road in a downtown urban area makes the cost of a heated bed much more lucrative than if you’re just heating a driveway
These are all good points, but I’m still quite skeptical. I’d need to see an actual projected cost breakdown, and then a followup 10 years later to review actual costs and savings.
west michigan IS that special. you either clear the roads, or you don’t use them.
and there are a lot of roads and a limited amount of plows… downtown in a larger city like GR, it makes perfect sense.
for the record, Lake Michigan generates it’s own clouds and snow, and the wind is constantly blowing west to east… it snows a lot more than you think… and very suddenly
I mean this has a specific use case
You don’t have to be negative about everything just because you don’t understand it
It’s not like you live in doomworld, doomsilvanya, 10230
So many people get heated driveways, use it for a year, get the cost for running it and never use it again…
I installed this in residential doing construction back in the day. It’s incredibly cost effective.
Inside sure, but outside in -13f / -25c degree weather, not so much. Heating outside in the middle of winter is a constant losing battle and is very costly.
Then to make matters worse, let’s try repairing a pothole…I’m sure that would be a lot more difficult then a normal road because of all the hydronic piping so you can’t just cut a hole, fill it and be done with it all.
I hear you. Can’t say myself but I’d imagine, as others pointed out, as long as you turn on early and prevent initial icing, that’s worth it.
Wrt potholes, I’d push back. I get the argument for introducing complexity ofc. However the whole thing is a bunch of PVC tubes ziptied to rebar below foundation and then we just covered with concrete. So filling hole sounds like initial build. But I get your point.
awful post. seems you just hate pedestrians and people who use bicycles
