• Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
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    Excerpt from Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds

    Some leftists and others fall back on the old stereotype of power hungry Reds who pursue power for powers sake without regard for actual social goals. If true, one wonders why, in country after country, these Reds side with the poor and powerless often at great risk and sacrifice to themselves, rather than reaping the rewards that come with serving the well-placed.

    For decades, many left-leaning writers and speakers in the United States have felt obliged to establish their credibility by indulging in anticommunist and anti-Soviet genuflection, seemingly unable to give a talk or write an article or book review on whatever political subject without injecting some anti-Red sideswipe. The intent was, and still is, to distance themselves from the Marxist-Leninist Left.

    Adam Hochschild, a liberal writer and publisher, warned those on the Left who might be lackadaisical about condemning existing communist societies that they “weaken their credibility” (Guardian, 5/23/84). In other words, to be credible opponents of the cold war, we first had to join in cold war condemnations of communist societies. Ronald Radosh urged that the peace movement purge itself of communists so that it not be accused of being communist (Guardian, 3/16/83). If I understand Radosh: To save ourselves from anticommunist witchhunts, we should ourselves become witchhunters.

    Purging the Left of communists became a longstanding practice, having injurious effects on various progressive causes. For instance, in 1949 some twelve unions were ousted from the CIO because they had Reds in their leadership. The purge reduced CIO membership by some 1.7 million and seriously weakened its recruitment drives and political clout. In the late 1940s, to avoid being “smeared” as Reds, Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), a supposedly progressive group, became one of the most vocally anticommunist organizations.

    The strategy did not work. ADA and others on the Left were still attacked for being communist or soft on communism by those on the Right. Then and now, many on the Left have failed to realize that those who fight for social change on behalf of the less-privileged elements of society will be Red-baited by conservative elites whether they are communists or not. For ruling interests, it makes little difference whether their wealth and power is challenged by “communist subversives” or “loyal American liberals.” All are lumped together as more or less equally abhorrent.

    Even when attacking the Right, left critics cannot pass up an opportunity to flash their anticommunist credentials. So Mark Green writes in a criticism of President Ronald Reagan that “when presented with a situation that challenges his conservative catechism, like an unyielding Marxist-Leninist, [Reagan] will change not his mind but the facts.” While professing a dedication to fighting dogmatism “both of the Right and Left,” individuals who perform such de rigueur genuflections reinforce the anticommunist dogma. Red-baiting leftists contributed their share to the climate of hostility that has given U.S. leaders such a free hand in waging hot and cold wars against communist countries and which even today makes a progressive or even liberal agenda difficult to promote.

    A prototypic Red-basher who pretended to be on the Left was George Orwell. In the middle of World War II, as the Soviet Union was fighting for its life against the Nazi invaders at Stalingrad, Orwell announced that a “willingness to criticize Russia and Stalin is the test of intellectual honesty. It is the only thing that from a literary intellectual’s point of view is really dangerous” (Monthly Review, 5/83). Safely ensconced within a virulently anticommunist society, Orwell (with Orwellian doublethink) characterized the condemnation of communism as a lonely courageous act of defiance. Today, his ideological progeny are still at it, offering themselves as intrepid left critics of the Left, waging a valiant struggle against imaginary Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist hordes.

    Sorely lacking within the U.S. Left is any rational evaluation of the Soviet Union, a nation that endured a protracted civil war and a multinational foreign invasion in the very first years of its existence, and that two decades later threw back and destroyed the Nazi beast at enormous cost to itself. In the three decades after the Bolshevik revolution, the Soviets made industrial advances equal to what capitalism took a century to accomplish—while feeding and schooling their children rather than working them fourteen hours a day as capitalist industrialists did and still do in many parts of the world. And the Soviet Union, along with Bulgaria, the German Democratic Republic, and Cuba, provided vital assistance to national liberation movements in countries around the world, including Nelson Mandela’s African National Congress in South Africa.

    Left anticommunists remained studiously unimpressed by the dramatic gains won by masses of previously impoverished people under communism. Some were even scornful of such accomplishments. I recall how in Burlington Vermont, in 1971, the noted anticommunist anarchist, Murray Bookchin, derisively referred to my concern for “the poor little children who got fed under communism” (his words).

    Those of us who refused to join in the Soviet bashing were branded by left anticommunists as “Soviet apologists” and “Stalinists,” even if we disliked Stalin and his autocratic system of rule and believed there were things seriously wrong with existing Soviet society. Our real sin was that unlike many on the Left we refused to uncritically swallow U.S. media propaganda about communist societies. Instead, we maintained that, aside from the well-publicized deficiencies and injustices, there were positive features about existing communist systems that were worth preserving, that improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people in meaningful and humanizing ways. This claim had a decidedly unsettling effect on left anticommunists who themselves could not utter a positive word about any communist society (except possibly Cuba) and could not lend a tolerant or even courteous ear to anyone who did.

    Saturated by anticommunist orthodoxy, most U.S. leftists have practiced a left McCarthyism against people who did have something positive to say about existing communism, excluding them from participation in conferences, advisory boards, political endorsements, and left publications. Like conservatives, left anticommunists tolerated nothing less than a blanket condemnation of the Soviet Union as a Stalinist monstrosity and a Leninist moral aberration.

    • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]
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      292 years ago

      Fun fact: the word count of the people shidding and pissing and cumming about how long this excerpt is now exceeds the word count of the excerpt itself.

      • Gonna paste a comment I made a couple weeks ago. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against hexbears and also because Parenti.

        Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

        When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of “always throwing walls of text at people.” When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we “only have simplistic takes.”

        parenti-hands

        There’s no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.

        • PatFusty
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          12 years ago

          Gonna paste a comment i made yesterday. Seems relevant again, both because of the accusation levied against deez nuts and also because why not.

          PIGPOOPBALLS

    • PatFusty
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      182 years ago

      TLDR

      Do you guys actually write this shit out or are you ctrl + v from some source? Every time i see hexbears they write up a whole journal article as a comment that most likely nobody is going to read.

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
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        602 years ago

        most likely nobody is going to read

        Being too lazy and uncurious to read a handful of paragraphs is not something to be proud of

        • PatFusty
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          22 years ago

          Sorry i am dumb and cant read good. You see I grew up in the streets of Zacapa where a poor little brown child like myself cant get a fine white privileged education like yourself. You are going to have lower the IQ of this conversation for me so I can understand

        • PatFusty
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          32 years ago

          Im actually a cracker… no wait im a fascist… or am I a conservative?? I dont know you hexbears call me everything i dont remember where we left off

      • @[email protected]
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        82 years ago

        I think a part of good, honest discourse is recognizing and respecting the time of the person you are talking with.

        If you are going to respond with 11 paragraphs quoted from a book, you should preempt it by saying something to diffuse it. Something like, “oh man, this is super long but actually quite beneficial. I wrote a tldr though at the end in case you don’t have time to read the whole thing.”

        I use this site while I’m at work. I literally don’t have time to read all of that lol.

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
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          2 years ago

          That’s why I put it behind a spoiler to avoid clogging up the thread.

          I put in the time of reading the book in the first place, then I remembered a relevant bit so I went back and looked through the book to try to find it, read through it again to make sure it was actually relevant, edited it because it was from a pdf and had wierd line breaks, and considered which parts were relevant to include and whether I should omit some of the examples. I cited that book not only because it expressed what I wanted to say, but also because it’s written in a modern style that’s easier to read than many socialist works.

          I guess I’m just used to an environment on Hexbear where people are more receptive towards reading relevant theory and some of us actually read not just posts and excerpts, but whole entire books. Maybe I should’ve just posted Pig Poop Balls instead.

          • @[email protected]
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            42 years ago

            I don’t doubt that you were doing it in good faith, but the execution was still in such a way that it is off-putting.

            • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
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              2 years ago

              You don’t have to click the spoiler. It’s literally one line you can easily scroll past, but some people who have more time might find it interesting.

              Anyway it’s a response to a pretty low-effort, unoriginal meme, the whole “proportional time” thing cuts both ways. I’ve added more to making these comments a meaningful, intelligent dialogue than OP did.

            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
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              412 years ago

              You have nothing of substance to contribute. Just “waaaaah your comment is more than a few sentences.”

              • @[email protected]
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                2 years ago

                Say what you want, 11 paragraphs is objectively longer than what most people want to read on social media. 11 paragraphs is just annoying and unproductive.

                You can see I’m right because literally everyone who isn’t a hexbear is like wtf is this. It is bad communication.

                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
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                  362 years ago

                  In the time you’ve spent pissing and moaning about that comment you could have read it five times over.

        • raven [he/him]
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          2 years ago

          On Hexbear we regularly bully each other into reading entire books when someone has a bad take. This is mild.

            • boboblaw [he/him, they/them]
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              152 years ago

              Educate yourself or shut the fuck up. Otherwise, don’t act surprised when you’re ridiculed for constantly voicing worthless thoughts.

              • @[email protected]
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                22 years ago

                In this case, I’m just saying throwing 11 paragraphs of some random essay isn’t a good way to communicate. I’m all for education.

            • raven [he/him]
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              2 years ago

              It would be good for you too. I see less whining about having to read two pages in 5th grade classrooms.

              But in fact you don’t have to! No one is forcing you to engage.

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
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          382 years ago

          You are wasting your time shitposting on social media. Your time means nothing. I respect neither it, nor you.

      • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]
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        652 years ago

        …I said “Excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds,” because it’s, uhh, an excerpt from Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds.

        I copied it from a pdf of the book I cited because I found it relevant. Really, if you want to fully understand how fascism and communism are different and not comparable, you should read the whole book. I know, I probably sound like a crazy person for suggesting that people read a whole entire book to better understand politics instead of going off vibes, but that’s just how I roll I guess.

      • raven [he/him]
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        2 years ago

        Are you asking if she copied and pasted an excerpt from a book? Yes, of course she did. Lol

        Edit: If I took a video of myself retyping it or writing it by hand, would you read it then? I’ll do it.

      • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
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        It’s a quote from a book they read. You should try reading books sometime, it’s cool.

        If you want a summary, the last two paragraphs they quoted could serve as one.

    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
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      332 years ago

      Related excerpt:

      The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.

    • VuraniuteOP
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      452 years ago

      Tankies forget that anything that isn’t stalinism is also considered socialist

    • WittyProfileName2 [she/her]
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      The fact that you think Trotsky would’ve been less authoritarian than Stalin betrays that you don’t know shit about him yourself.

      • Cynetri (he/any)
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        172 years ago

        Even alternatehistoryhub, infamous youtuber known for his weird conservative takes, came to this conclusion

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]
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          122 years ago

          Even a stupid person known for their insane takes would agree with your conclusion?

          Damn, that sounds like bullet proof reasoning. Sorry for doubting you.

          • Cynetri (he/any)
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            152 years ago

            I’m saying it’s a very obvious conclusion to make for anyone who does research on him

        • WittyProfileName2 [she/her]
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          412 years ago

          Why would the Commissar of Military and Naval affairs under Lenin, who was instrumental in founding the red army and oversaw the purging of Mahknovists and other anarchist elements in the early USSR be less authoritarian than Stalin?

              • @[email protected]
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                2 years ago

                If you spent more time explaining things rather than “dunking on libs” maybe your movement would be less on the fringe. I don’t have an opinion on who is more authoritarian, which is why it was obnoxious that you matter-of-factly made your point without any substance.

    • raven [he/him]
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      102 years ago

      If trots manage to start up a successful revolution I will drop everything and support them

    • Grimble [he/him,they/them]
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      Why would you defend a guy who ordered deaths alongside Lenin then immediately left and cozied up to 1920s American fascism to make books about “The Betrayed Revolution” because he didnt get his share?

      Trotsky was a socialist. After his defection, he did next to nothing to advance socialism, only to passively denounce the closest thing the world had then to a Socialist Order. And he did this by going to their enemies, objectively the least socialist-tolerant bloc on Earth. Archetypal example of a self-centered “leftist” who folds inward and exclusively talks about their own life/‘persecution’ after one falling-out with the organized left. Look at Trotskyists nowadays and tell me they aren’t walking parodies who talk like Broadway characters. It says a lot abt how off-kilter you have to be to throw yourself behind Trotsky’s weirdo ‘cause’

      EDIT: To be clear, while I havent seen much of his work, I respect parts of his legacy. I’m sure there’s a lot of insight in his writing - reading criticism from a seasoned former Bolshevik is interesting, and the perspective is useful for making sense of the wider movement. I also understand he was under a lot of personal pressure at the time he fled the USSR. Despite any merit Stalin showed in WW2 or the Union’s massive industrialization effort, it must’ve seemed unfair to many party members that he was chosen to succeed Lenin (not sure of specifics on that event). I’d even say his assassination wasn’t necessary, and the graphic details aren’t something I take pride in. However, at the end of the day Trotsky’s decision to defect was a net negative for socialism in the early 20th century. He should’ve tried to be a different kind of conscientious objector, not a voice of anti-Soviet dissent.

      • @[email protected]
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        Wow. I guess someone has never actually read Trotsky or anything from Trotskyist. Try some Tony Cliff. Also, how you think Trotskyist sound today is not an indictment of Trotsky. Being critical of a revolution that has failed and the leaders and politics that followed is not the crime you think it is.
        Jesus fucking Christ this is not the revolutionary left we need. Grow the fuck up.

        edit: That’s funny, either you posted your edit while i was typing my response or I didn’t see it some how. either way. I’m sorry for being such a dick. I’m just so fed up with folks online regarding, what i would call state capitalist countries as genuine socialism, and rejecting any criticism of said states, as capitalist loving trash. Somehow Marxism has become a ridged dogma for these people. With the campist and the tankies distorting revolutionary socialism so much i fell like i live in upside down world. again sorry comrade. I would suggest “the two souls of socialism”. side note Trotsky was Lenin’s pick as leader not Stalin. Had he not “defected” he would likely have been killed by Stalin much earlier, like many of the seasoned former Bolsheviks who lead and then tried to defend the revolution against Stalin.

        • xXthrowawayXx [none/use name]
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          I’m not gonna engage with you about Trotsky but holy fucking shit you’re the mythical “state capitalist” sayer who actually is a self aware cliffite.

          It’s a pleasure to meet you!

          E:

          Trotsky was Lenin’s pick

          I see what you did there!

        • Grimble [he/him,they/them]
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          What kind of revolutionary left do you want? Regardless, wanting to hard-reboot an existing radical movement over its perceived “failure” - while it’s still gaining traction - is what Trotsky did, and it just threw a wrench into things.

          And not to be that guy, but the negativity isn’t doing you favors. I made an effort to be reasonable and objective (except the Modern Trotskyites bit, since they honestly feel too sus and self-destructive to take seriously). If you’re feeling threatened by that, idk what to tell you. This is just what we believe. No one pays us for it.

        • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]
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          In none of this exchange did you demonstrate a fraction of the knowledge as the person you’re berating. You just genuinely don’t seem to know anything except how to sound confident in an online argument. So I’m sorry but listening to you lament all the wayward academics and telling people to grow the fuck up just doesn’t land. I think you’re just full of shit.

  • SaniFlush [any, any]
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    512 years ago

    Yeah like America, a country which pretends to be democratic but is actually a dictatorship of the bourgeois. I’m glad we’re on the same page.

  • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]
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    Very interesting how all those “pretend socialists” only exist in the third world, and all the “real socialists” existin the west. Yet all the successful revolutions have been done in the third world by “pretend socialists”, and the so called “real socialists” in the west have accomplished nothing. Their biggest success of the “real socialists” in the west being capitalist welfare states or social democracies that rely on old school imperial relationships to fund their welfare in a select few areas.

    No Eurocentrism present to this line of thought here at all…

    What do you think of Nelson Mandela OP? He was a very good leader, right? You know that he considered Cuba an ally and supported their revolution as Cuba sent troops to fight against the apartheid government in the border wars, took inspiration from Mao and called the Chinese revolution a miracle, thanked the Soviets for giving unending support in the fight against apartheid while receiving the a Lenin Peace Prize? So is Nelson Mandela now a fascist according to your meme?

  • puff [comrade/them]
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    322 years ago

    OP be like: “Yes, I’m a socialist. No, I’ve never read Marx nor Engels, I get my ideas from CNN. Why do you ask?”

  • armrods
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    132 years ago

    Lemmy users: yes socialism is good

    Everyone else points to a country where it failed

    Lemmy users: that wasn’t real socialism

  • @[email protected]
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    42 years ago

    -Country: Elects socialist leader.

    -America: Disrupts country to dispose leader.
    -Success: Country no longer Socialist.
    -Failure: Strongman comes to power to resist. Resists disruption, becomes dictator. Country no longer Socialist.

  • Grimble [he/him,they/them]
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    Could you show this meme to any of your friends or family and succesfully explain a) why it’s funny and b) who it’s for ?

  • axont [she/her, comrade/them]
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    us-foreign-policy

    Westerners deciding who’s doing real socialism or not. Westerners expressing their most vile sentiment for foreign countries rather than their own imperialism. Westerners praising the words of their own imperialist intelligence agencies. Westerners unironically praising their own nations for civil liberties like the freedom of fascists to assemble, freedom of racists to express themselves, freedom of parents to own their children, and freedom of school districts to continue racial segregation. Westerners praising imperialist nations like Norway as socialist while using bold language like fascism to describe places under that same exact threat of imperialism, like Cuba and Vietnam.

    Westerners claiming foreign governments are merely pretending to be socialist, while claiming unorganized misinformed chauvinistic westerners are the true heirs to socialism, despite all they do is post online and complain about foreign nations.

    Westerners praising anarchist movements from 100 years ago despite having no common cause with those movements, no connection to the circumstances within them, and probably no actual admiration of them. Westerners praising a bastardized, sectarian, perverse form of anarchism rather than attempting unity with organizations in their areas. Westerners refusing to speak with actual anarchists in their area, who by and large don’t give a shit and just want to hand out food or help at shelters. If Buenaventura Durruti were alive today he’d be regarded with scorn by western chauvinists.

    Westerners continuing to bring up Trotsky of all people, who wasn’t relevant to world affairs for the last 15 years of his life and certainly not the past 80 years. Westerners not reading a single word of Trotsky’s work, westerners focusing entirely on Trotsky’s feud with Stalin, westerners not knowing that Trotsky was a literal military commander. Westerners calling themselves Trotskyists in 2023 for some reason. Westerners deciding they have a feud with Joseph Stalin, a man who died in 1953.

    Westerners attempting to praise their own socialist leadership, who happen to be a scattered group of imperialist-aligned social democrats, Twitch streamers, and actual antisemitic grifters such as in the case of Caleb Maupin.