P.S: This also applies during breaks.
I’ve only seen cultish schools ban phones during break.
It’s Standard practice in Germany except for maybe the 11th and 12th graders at some schools.
You can add Slovakia to the list until 9th grade. Then goes secondary school, you couldn’t really apply it there.
My district’s got tablets for pretty much everything and the kids don’t really know how to troubleshoot any problems with them and there’s no time to teach them to troubleshoot those problems and it’s all proprietary bullshit anyway.
I know a place that does great deals on tablets bundled with the latest education software that has doubled test score performance in Louisiana.
I own the place.
I have children paste apple logos on the cheapest tablets I can find.
The test score performance is doubled by flagging the outliers dragging down the average and feeding them to alligators.
But on the upside I’m only partially funded by the Gates Foundation.
Yeah, the second one will directly affect the first one positively. Essentially, school work needs to be the most interesting thing you can do in school, otherwise you will have low motivation. It’s not the job of the the school staff to make the material extremely interesting, it’s their job to remove every more interesting thing from the reach of students.
Read up on dopamine if you didn’t understand that.
(And yes, this affects adults too)
read up on dopamine if you didn’t understand
While you’re on that, you could research how things don’t become more interesting by the absence of more interesting things and how dopamine is required for attention and information retention.
Doing nothing to motivate except removing potential distractions from unengaging school work doesn’t work and can even hurt students’ mental health as they experience issues of guilt and inadequacy from being unable to do what’s required of them.
What exactly should be done to motivate?
I ask because schools do a lot to motivate but kids often dismiss it as lame or complain about the efforts. It’s very easy to say “motivate kids” but actual ideas aren’t common.
Let me give you an example, everyone has heard “when will we use this in real life?” in math class. The same people asking those questions are the same that groan at word problems. So you have kids complaining that won’t be able to use something in real life, and upset when they have to solve a real life problem. What’s the real complaint the student has? They have to try.
I agree that so much more can be done to make school fun, but it’s not all on the teachers. Students have to be present, participate and willing to leave their comfort zone in order to have better results.
The best way to motivate is to build relationship and demonstrate a sense of excitement or at least show real-world connection to content. Relationship is the key, though. Students will care more about anything you say if they trust that you care about them.
What exactly should be done to motivate?
Great question. And a hard one. But knowing a proposed solution will worsen the situation is an important step in it.
It’s like every time a person says “see, this is what happens when you don’t hit children” at every behavior issue. Even though we know that hitting children objectively worsens behavior over doing nothing, but they insist that doing the only thing they know, even if harmful, is better.
Let me give you an example, everyone has heard “when will we use this in real life?” in math class. The same people asking those questions are the same that groan at word problems
I had a math teacher that helped us see which math we would use in real life, and which math we wouldn’t, and helped us understand why the latter was still important for us to know. Everyone paid attention to her.
What’s the real complaint the student has? They have to try.
When you have a room of 30 students and 29 of them are complaining about something, we need to remind people that one of the real life uses of math (stats & probability to be precise) is to point out how unlikely it is that those 29 students are the causal variable.
I agree that so much more can be done to make school fun, but it’s not all on the teachers. Students have to be present, participate and willing to leave their comfort zone in order to have better results.
“Personal Responsibility” attitudes just doesn’t work for crowd dynamics, especially with regards to children. The way a group behaves is nearly 100% predictable from the balance of outside human factors. In this case, the outside factors are parents and teachers. That’s it. Either there is something that all the parents are doing wrong, or the teachers.
Since there are some teachers who have far more success than others (common “favorite subjects” based on school), that means the most likely cause, and mechanism for improvements, are the teachers.
It’s like every time a person says “see, this is what happens when you don’t hit children” at every behavior issue. Even though we know that hitting children objectively worsens behavior over doing nothing, but they insist that doing the only thing they know, even if harmful, is better.
But we know children learn better without phones https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k12/news/the-evidence-is-clear-students-learn-better-without-mobile-phones-in-class/276071 You are the person insisting on hitting the child here.
Putting phones in school makes learning harder.
When you have a room of 30 students and 29 of them are complaining about something … point out how unlikely it is that those 29 students are the causal variable.
You are saying 29 out of 30 people can’t be right, which is very wrong. But what you miss is that it’s really 3-4 kids disrupting and the rest going along because it’s easier.
It’s the path of least resistance, and people will jump onto the easy path.
“Personal Responsibility” attitudes just doesn’t work for crowd dynamics,
Except they do. Look at all the examples of Japanese fans cleaning stadiums.
In a crowd most people will follow the norm. If the norm is playing on your phone and not listening, the you have a bad time. It’s not punishing kids because teachers are bad at their jobs, it’s setting a behavioral norm.
Next time you dislike your teacher think about when you got stuck in a group with people who wouldn’t do anything. Now imagine a class full of them. If just one or two more people put in a little effort good things would happen.
But we know children learn better without phones https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k12/news/the-evidence-is-clear-students-learn-better-without-mobile-phones-in-class/276071
I disagree. For two reasons. First, there is only a couple studies in your link, and its “difference-in-difference” strategy does not seem (at least prima facie) to shown effective isolation to only a single variable. Second, it seems to be making the same mistake previously made by Psychologists in the “hitting children” debate, making unsubstantiated (or “common sense”) conclusions about the gulf in the middle after only doing a quick analysis of the two extremes. Further, your link also calls question your claim by pointing out Switzerland did not find any effectiveness in banning phones.
And the “hitting” reference was intended to point out the concern against positive advancement. There was a time where psychologists thought hitting was better than nothing even when they knew it was net harmful and so did not strongly discourage it when parents could not or would not embrace more modern parenting strategies. The same is true of phones in school (and, per your link, laptops in college). Looking at the laptop studies I could find, they have the same methodological problems the phone studies have. They’re looking presumptively at distraction, and setting up an experiment where distraction is more pronounced.
Yet laptops have a lot more research than phones. Studies mentioned above compare ubiquitous laptop use and scores, while failing to address that each individual that uses a laptop averages higher scores than individuals who do not. What studies I could find with phones could be moving in the direction of that same dynamic that shows missing understanding of how to be use technology in learning.
Let’s look at the other side of things. Another study (again, possibly flawed…I don’t trust either side’s phone studies much yet) found that removing a phone ban in NY caused an increase in overall student obedience and educational productivity, at the cost of “school culture”. As someone who grew up as a victim of “school culture” in a world where teachers supported bullying (and in many places they still do), I have no problem with that trade-off. Of course, this study does directly contradict your educatoronline article.
From this fairly balanced piece (which agrees with both my article and yours in some ways):
“If educators do not find ways to leverage mobile technology in all learning environments, for all students, then we are failing our kids by not adequately preparing them to make the connection between their world outside of school and their world inside school”
…which is more important than test scores.
You are saying 29 out of 30 people can’t be right, which is very wrong. But what you miss is that it’s really 3-4 kids disrupting and the rest going along because it’s easier. It’s the path of least resistance, and people will jump onto the easy path.
Is that something you can cite, or just your own personal “pick em up by their bootstraps” opinion? Do you have any experience with crowd simulation? Can you show any evidence that your explanation is likely, or even reasonably possible?
Except they do. Look at all the examples of Japanese fans cleaning stadiums.
That’s… not an effective or topical rebuttal at all. Did you misunderstand what I meant by “Personal Responsibility” attitudes? I referred to blaming the individuals in a large group for their failure instead of blaming the causal elements of the group. I have to deal with that type of problem regularly, where a manager tries to blame a majority of his reports (all capable and talented) of being the problem when something goes wrong. Guess who I ultimately find responsible?
Next time you dislike your teacher think about when you got stuck in a group with people who wouldn’t do anything.
Thankfully, I’m decades out on that. From the kinds of things I see and read about education, I’m grateful I don’t have to go back. But then, my education started after school anyway.
I disagree.
Great! But you have no evidence to support your argument. Your apples to oranges comparison of laptops isn’t compelling. Nor am I compelled by your methodology argument, which seems to take issue with testing a hypothesis that phones are a distraction.
thought hitting was better than nothing even when they knew it was net harmful
Once again, we know cellphones are detrimental to learning. This is not a matter of schools failing to adapt to new technology. Tablets, computers, interactive software and more are used. It is about unrestricted cell phone use, which studies have shown hinders learning.
a phone ban in NY caused an increase in overall student obedience and educational productivity, … Of course, this study does directly contradict your educatoronline article.
No it doesn’t. It says that no phones mean better learning. You are missing the forest for the trees.
Crowd dynamics
Lots of research has been done on this, and a small number of people can influence a large group. Look at “wave” studies for more info.
Calling minimum acceptable classroom behavior “picking yourself up by your bootstraps” is absurd. It’s like saying that you can’t expect people to not talk at the theater because that’s just asking too much of people.
Great! But you have no evidence to support your argument
I cited two pieces of fairly substantive evidence in reply to someone who cited a single article. If you don’t think that is reasonable escalation of evidence, we can stop now.
Once again, we know cellphones are detrimental to learning. This is not a matter of schools failing to adapt to new technology
My cited references contradict that. More importantly, your article contradicts the “we know” part. Let me quote your reference: "Research from Sweden, however, suggests little effect of banning mobile phones in high school on student performance. "
My references made clear argument that this is indeed a case of schools failing to adapt to new technology. I even quoted a relevant quote to you.
No it doesn’t. It says that no phones mean better learning. You are missing the forest for the trees.
“My findings suggest an improvement in educational productivity due to the NYCDOE’s ban removal”. I understand there’s a double-negative in that reference, but the cited study’s findings suggest that “yes phones mean better learning”. You might disagree with it, but please reread it so that you do not misrepresent it.
Lots of research has been done on this, and a small number of people can influence a large group. Look at “wave” studies for more info.
Sure. Please demonstrate that your claims are correct. Until then, and especially because you seem to have failed to comprehend the involved references, I will wish you luck.
Calling minimum acceptable classroom behavior “picking yourself up by your bootstraps” is absurd. It’s like saying that you can’t expect people to not talk at the theater because that’s just asking too much of people.
I’ve lived an entire life of watching people blame the bulk of individuals for failures by authorities. I have become reasonably skeptical of any claims that “it’s everyone but…” the decision-maker.
It’s concerning that you think the absence of a device is comparable to the presence of a action, in this case hitting.
It’s concerning that you think the absence of a device is comparable to the presence of a action, in this case hitting.
I’m genuinely lost on how you think the only variable here is whether something is being banned or being encouraged. Or should I say, it’s “concerning”. Did you have a smartphone in school?
It’s not the job of the the school staff to make the material extremely interesting, it’s their job to remove every more interesting thing from the reach of students.
And this is how we reached the point where sleep is more common in a classroom than anything else. They should make the material interesting enough that people won’t have to resort to other stuff
Read up on dopamine if you didn’t understand that.
I know what dopamine (the joy hormone which the body uses as a “reward”) is. Since the body uses it as a “reward” if school gives students that, then students will like school
Make the material more interesting? Buddy, it’s school not Qanon.
I find a lot of knowledge interesting. Being interesting involves knowledge
And this is how we reached the point where sleep is more common in a classroom than anything else.
I think this has more to do with sleep deprivation. I can probably count the number of days I got a full night’s rest while in high school and college on one hand. Rather than making classes more interesting (though they could do this as well I guess), they should focus on not completely overwhelming the students with homework, although I’ll admit that was more of a college thing.
They should make the material interesting enough that people won’t have to resort to other stuff
Nope. It’s all relative. Compared to what’s available via the phone and internet, 90% of school material is fundamentally more boring, because important things are often boring – and there’s almost nothing you can do about it. I mean sure, an incompetent/unmotivated teacher can make the material even less interesting, but that’s also why we need competent teachers. That’s a separate problem.
So the quest to make school material more interesting than the Internet is a dead end – it’s just impossible. So they need to make everything else less interesting. Which means that phones and computers can fuck right off. If there are kids for whom this is a difficult situation and they’re unable to cope, such kids will need intervention. I.e. restrictions in free time as well.
Did you hear what I said about dopamine being the “joy hormone” and used as a “reward”. Your body gives out happy hormones like this after an exercise and other good stuff for you (including school work if it is interesting)
And don’t you tell me that knowledge isn’t interesting. For something to be interesting (by my definition) it must give you knowledge.
Girls twerking on TikTok is not interesting - the way Hitler died is
Memes are not interesting (unless they contain important info)
These may produce dopamine in other ways but they are not interesting
Which means that phones and computers can fuck right off.
I could be considered “tech savvy”, I know a bit of C/PHP and a lot of shell script. Explain ro me how I could learn that without a computer (I’m also self-taught)
So they need to make everything else less interesting.
As I said, sleep is something that pupils prefer to schoolwork. Get schoolwork above a bar that low and then we can talk. Amyway, it just needs to be interesting enough that students won’t feel a need to check social media
Please don’t learn about how Hitler died through Tiktok. Befriend your librarian and read it in a book.
I dont use tiktok, I hate the app
You used Tiktok as an example for something that is more interesting than learning. (Of course it’s more interesting than learning, it’s digital crack cocaine.)
I could be considered “tech savvy”, I know a bit of C/PHP and a lot of shell script. Explain ro me how I could learn that without a computer (I’m also self-taught)
By using the computer or phone at home. Roughly half of the programmer workforce currently alive went through childhood without a mobile phone, because they didn’t exist for regular consumers. And personal laptops for children would’ve been perhaps an option for the top 1%, but probably not even them. Since you just didn’t have electronics in school.
Way more than half. Let’s separate dumb phones from smart phones. Even smart phones weren’t all that capable for a long time.
important things are often boring – and there’s almost nothing you can do about it.
That’s downright ridiculous. The most important skill for a teacher is an ability to effectively impart knowledge and in order to make students listen and remember, you need to make them interested.
So they need to make everything else less interesting.
No, they ABSOLUTELY don’t. If I’m watching a fascinating TED Talk at home, I don’t need anyone to make my favourite tv show boring in order for me to pay attention. That’s not how attention works. For someone who seems at least dimly aware of the existence of dopamine, you seem remarkably confused about the effects of a lack of it.
If there are kids for whom this is a difficult situation and they’re unable to cope, such kids will need intervention. I.e. restrictions in free time as well.
So restrictions are your only tools? I really hope you’re not a teacher or a parent, because your ideas seem not just ineffective but actually borderline abusive.
If I’m watching a fascinating TED Talk at home, I don’t need anyone to make my favourite tv show boring in order for me to pay attention.
You’re comparing a TED Talk that you chose to watch to school curriculum.
I really hope you’re not a teacher or a parent, because your ideas seem not just ineffective but actually borderline abusive.
I’m a parent who has witnessed the effects of smart devices on children, and I have made serious mistakes in this area. Those mistakes are from being not restrictive enough. I believe the society has made similar mistakes, but is slowly turning to facing and understanding those mistakes. A generation has been lost, though, and some people (like yourself it seems) are still fighting against countering these problems. I hope you’re not in any role where you can decide these things, because I think your opinions around this seem very harmful to both individuals and society.
I hope you’re not in any role where you can decide these things, because I think your opinions around this seem very harmful to both individuals and society.
Ignoring what we’re fighting about, just think of what you said there. You are saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that we should just not allow people with opinions that contradict you to not have any power
Sorry if I came off rude or I’m putting words in your mouth but stuff like that is not ideas I take lightly. I think it’s a threat to democracy
EDIT: I also hate stuff like this that directly attacks the person with the ideas. I have noticed that the replies to you became a lot ruder after you said that (probably it rubbed off.) I thing it is important to be calm in a discussion
Back to the topic
You’re comparing a TED Talk that you chose to watch to school curriculum.
Teachers regularly put informational videos (including TED talks) on in the classroom. It never becomes less interesting because it’s forced upon me - if anything their a nice change of pace
Those mistakes are from being not restrictive enough
Can you please elaborate. What “mistakes” did you make and what do you do now (also please elaborate on the “mistakes” society made)
Also please elaborate on the “effect”
Ignoring what we’re fighting about, just think of what you said there. You are saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that we should just not allow people with opinions that contradict you to not have any power
That was a reaction to them saying that they hope I’m not a parent. Which I am. Obviously not a good reaction, but it happened.
EDIT: I also hate stuff like this that directly attacks the person with the ideas. I have noticed that the replies to you became a lot ruder after you said that (probably it rubbed off.) I thing it is important to be calm in a discussion
I feel that I was attacked first and replied with similar energy, but oh well. That’s how everyone feels in these things, right?
Ignoring what we’re fighting about, just think of what you said there. You are saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that we should just not allow people with opinions that contradict you to not have any power
No one should be basing policy decisions on opinions anyway. Those should be based off facts and data.
You’re comparing a TED Talk to school curriculum.
It was supposed to be an easy to understand example of information being imparted in a more efficient way because it’s made interesting, not a one to one comparison. I felt that “listening to the teacher explain passionately and engagedly about the industrial revolution” was a bit clunky and on the nose.
I guess I underestimated how literal I have to be when dealing with someone who can’t even imagine that pedagogy other than deprivation works.
I’m a parent who has witnessed the effects of smart devices on children, and I have made serious mistakes in this area. Those mistakes are from being not restrictive enough.
No, those mistakes have likely been mostly from increasing the temptation to goof off on their phones by boring them.
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I apologize, but your comments started stuoid and the devolved into ignorant nonsense, and thus poor other fella keeps engaging you like you’re capable of honest debate.
Education has never been about being more interesting than games or entertainment, and you sound like a nitwit for even suggesting it. Teachers are tasked with educating, and the #1 preventable reason for kids falling behind isn’t “entertain me more!” . . . it’s shit parenting and upbringing.
Kids lack impulse control worse than anyone – taking away cell phones is an absolute no-brainer.
Hey, I fell asleep halfway through your comment. Can you make it more engaging for me?
in order to make students listen and remember, you need to make them interested.
You said it better than I could
staring at a wall is more interesting then (badly done) school
Hey at least they give you some books to read if you’re bored. They’re heavy as hell, but you might learn something and get a well needed break from the phone.
Wrong. Get off the phone.
Says the neurotypical teacher to the kid who can’t concentrate without music during study time.
Just do what I did in school and put an earphone down your sleeve. Rest head on hand. Listen to music. It’s not difficult, I got away with it in exams ffs (I dont recommend that last bit btw, that was young stupidity in hindsight)
How you going to hear what the teacher is saying when listening to music?
They just threw pencils and erasers at me if they needed me to listen. Most of what they were talking about was covered in the book so they just let me read it. The only exception was math.
Imagine getting dissaproval votes (or whatever we’re calling not downvotes) just for sharing a completely neutral retelling of something that happened to you lmao
Lots of Redditors recently joined it seems. And they aren’t known for being the smartest people who properly utilise the voting system.
during study time
Turns out: even when you do pay attention, reading comprehension is tough. 😂
Did you read the “during study time” part of the comment. I certainly don’t think student’s shpuld be listening to music when a teacher is actively teaching.
This has been an awakening to Lemmy’s philosophical and literate ideals.
Can you not pair Bluetooth earbuds to your school laptop?
many entire generations of people did not have this luxury
During class. You made up “study time”. No one cares if your on your phone studying during “study time” in the library. But if someone is lecturing you shouldn’t be on your phone or have earbuds in.
The amount of times I told my students they can use their phone for certain exercises, then 90% of them just went on Tiktok or played Clash Of Clans, is why is started not allowing phones.
I get that to the 10% it was super helpful but it’s just easier to not allow everyone.
Phones certainly decrease our level of motivation by decreasing our dopamine baseline. Huberman Labs episodes addressing dopamine are really interesting
to answer your question, there is no reason other than america’s fetishization of the protestant work ethic.
schools don’t need to be a joyless labor camp. you already have to wake up far too early and be there all day, can’t you at least be on your phone? maybe give kids a break? everyone has stress in their lives, my anxiety started in 5th grade, maybe i don’t have the mental capacity for 7 fucking classes today and i check out after 5. just like no honest person pays full rapt attention every minute of their jobs.
in college you can basically be on your phone during class and i remember just as much from college as i do grade school. either way, you have to study for the exams. if you aren’t gonna pay attention, there are plenty of ways to do so. being forced to listen doesn’t necessarily increase absorption.
Ah yes, americas protestant work ethic is why phones are not allowed in schools. Silly me I thought it was because it lowers motivation and promotes cheating
I thought it was because its distracting to the student and their peers? Cant focus on the lesson when youre playing games on your phone, and converselye when another student is playing games on their phone.
Aka lowers motivation to learn
Unless you have ADHD and have a really hard time focusing on work with the chorus of shuffling and sniffles around you and would rather put in earbuds and study.
I agree that the school environment should be more motivating, but there’s no way to compete with apps and games designed to be addictive, even adults have trouble avoiding their phones at work.
it’s called having discipline
School will never be as interesting as a phone. Your teacher will never be as entertaining as an influencer. Your textbooks will never be as entertaining as your feed. What families and teenagers have to understand is that education is a choice. If you want to learn, you’ll probably have to put your phone down for long periods of time to actively listen and learn. It’s difficult. It tires you out. It’ll frustrate you. But you will eventually learn.
Then again - when I look at home prices and inflation, I understand young people’s feelings of futility.
Good luck young people. I’m really rooting for you to figure this out.
Even before phones schools were like this. But they’d just put you in mandatory extra classes to fix your grades. Instead of, you know, talking to you. To get to know how you are doing and how you’re feeling.
I’ve hated my school time and all it taught me is teachers are obsessed with having power over others. Maybe not all teachers, but a lot are like this. They won’t listen to you, they just force their opinion on you. And if you don’t do well in their pre-made lecturing framework then it’s on you because you don’t pay attention and you are lazy. It’s never on them.
One thing I miss about reddit is that I could just filter out r/teenagers
Im also saddened that this is at the top of my feed. I want to laugh not be annoyed by some shitpost badly hidden as a meme.
We’ve been so busy fighting extremists and gross fetish porn that we forgot to quarantine the annoying children.
Where can I fight this gross fetish porn? I need to, uh, join the fight, too…
Not sure bro, I think he talking about hentai pedos
Oh nvm then.
Lmao it pains me every time I think of my prior behavior as a kid on the net. Becoming an adult, I was not prepared to face the shame of my behavior simply due to my lack of understanding. I genuinely thought I knew. ugh.
I never thought about that before, but I guess that’s one good thing about having already been an adult by the time the Internet existed.
The annoying children were quarantined on reddit?
Anyway, I’m not leaving this place without a fight
I don’t know about you but /r/teenagers was one of the handful of subs I ever blocked.
I just try to blend in
Wasn’t r/teenagers filled with pedoes?
Plenty, yes. If someone revealed they’re a girl aged 13-16, they’d get flooded with DMs asking for nudes. And dick pics. Always many of such screenshots around.
Second slide makes the first one possible but will still take effort beyond that
I don’t think so tbh. If students are motivated enough, then this policy wouldn’t need to be pursued.
A lot of kids are really addicted to their phones it’s hard to even talk to them when they just always have their phone in their hand
Not just kids
looks up from phone
Huh? What’s you say?
To be honest, sometimes I may just stare at black screen if I have low battery just to avoid talking with people. It serves the same purpose as headphones, just a bit worse.
I think addressing low motivation levels is beyond the scope of the school’s ability to affect things. When I was in high school I remember not caring about much of anything because I was convinced that even though I was almost certainly going to college, I would still just end up in a ‘passionless bullshit make-work dead end job’ like my parents, working long hours just to eke out a meager living, enough to keep getting back in the goddamn hamster wheel, and that really sapped my will to do anything productive. I ended up being completely right but I’m lucky enough to be living in this era of realization that work in the states is inherently bullshit, and that I make enough money to pursue passions outside of my 8-6.
yeah, too many school authorities do act taht way. For a approach going more in the opposite direction, see, for example: https://piped.video/watch?v=dk60sYrU2RU (maybe skip to aa minute in. presented, the idea, in that case, by sugata mitra. The Talk is not new, but still relevant I’d think, and relates to the post here. ) 💻🖥️
For anotger, similar, but also different example, see https://piped.video/watch?v=WNuv0_MLrKg this one specifically mentions phones early on, too.
So if you believe in, or are open to the idea, that the approach in in the main meme post isn’t the best, then the stories in the piped videos might be of some intrest to you.
tdlr: 🎶you can use your phone if yiu want to, yiu can leave your technophobe schoolmaster behind,… 🎶🎧
How do you address low motivation levels though? The response to covid, the endless school shootings, their parent’s jobs, and even a small amount of reading about climate apocalypse should make it obvious to children that society despises them and that they have no future. How do you motivate someone to do well in school under those conditions if they’re not already motivated?
education is a benefit in and of itself. Maths helps develop your brain to solve problems, english makes you more able to appreciate culture which in turn will make you more interesting and better able to socialise, history helps you understand how the world is and that it used to and can be different.
These things are worth learning even if you don’t do them for work
