They’re still scumbags though

  • @[email protected]
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    2 years ago

    This is what they wanted to do from the beginning. They just boundary tested to see how far people would let them take this.

    This is still a step backward, its just a step backward fewer people are going to push back on. But the issue is that if it is allowed, theyll slowly introduce more download tracking over time.

    • ripcord
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      112 years ago

      I really doubt it. This seems like a pretty typical corporate leadership fuckup and walk back. I’ve seen it enough from the inside to know the real source is management just being greedy and stupid, not some devious multilayered plan.

      • @[email protected]
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        92 years ago

        I dont really think “see if we can get away with this and if not, try to get away with a bit less” requires 7 dimensional chess level thinking. More like its a CEO’s default state.

        • ripcord
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          It’s just much more likely that they massively overestimated what they could get away with and were surprised they couldn’t. They were almost definitely scrambling here when the bad press and reactions started.

          The situation and plan is shitty either way, but your case implies a level of intent and competence that I’m really skeptical about. Much more likely they figured all the app cash cows would grumble but mostly accept it after some mild pushback. Really unlikely they expected it to become front-page tech news everywhere.

    • Ech
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      82 years ago

      I do think that’s just standard practice these days with “bad press” moves, but I don’t think this is what Unity wanted. They never expected to have to move it as far back as they have, nor did they expect the loss in trust, which was really stupid of them, frankly. They really thought their dominance in the industry was enough that clients essentially wouldn’t have a choice other than the shit options dictated by Unity and only Unity.

      But not only was that dominance proven extremely fragile (and now heavily fractured), they just put themselves in the very precarious position of having to entice back clients after essentially hitting them in the face and daring them to go somewhere else. Any smart person/company isn’t going to willingly leave themselves reliant on Unity ever again.

      • @[email protected]
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        22 years ago

        This also could be their original goal, but they tried to pull the “throw it at the wall and see what sticks” and then dialed it back to try and make it not seem as bad.

        Like when the justice system adds on a bunch of superfluous charges in order to make their primary ones stick.

        • Ech
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          82 years ago

          I guarantee their original goal didn’t include “and now only stupid clients will work with us”, which is my point.

          • @[email protected]
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            62 years ago

            Yeah, those corporate types usually can’t see past their next quarterly earnings report.

            The fact remains that this playbook failed rather drastically, earlier this year even, with the D&D Franchise making similar headlines, and it wasn’t even enough to give them pause.

  • @[email protected]
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    3042 years ago

    Nothing they do at this point will bring any of the goodwill back. They already messed up and no amount of walking it back is going to change the perception that they might just do it again at any moment

    • Lev_Astov
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      92 years ago

      I won’t trust Unity with any of my future projects until I see the heads of their entire upper level management team on pikes.

      • @[email protected]
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        72 years ago

        Even that wouldn’t bring me back. There are simply other options. Godot’s good so long as you aren’t planning of a console release. If your are then Epic are no angels but they haven’t pulled this crap with Unreal.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      1172 years ago

      1,000%

      I’m a year into developing my first game though and this means I don’t have to abandon all the progress I’ve made. After I publish this game, all bets are off as to where I go…or should I say where I godot.

      • @[email protected]
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        422 years ago

        Have you explored what level of effort it would take for you to convert it to use another engine? There are a TON of tools people are making to assist with porting projects from Unity to any number of other engines. Sure, the tools won’t do 100% of the work, but by what I’ve been hearing, they take a HUGE amount of the tedium out of the process.

          • @[email protected]
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            22 years ago

            This isn’t really useful for data heavy games such as the one I’m working on.

            It doesn’t help that Unity-specifc stuff seeps everywhere (stuff like floating point Maths, Vector classes, Time and so on) mainly because Unity themselves push people to go that way rather than use the .Net equivalents (which aren’t quite equivalent).

    • Kichae
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      162 years ago

      They don’t need good will, unfortunately. They just need devs to not abandon it for Unreal or some other engine, and the cost/benefits calculation on that is going to be made by short sighted people on a project-by-project basis.

      • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️
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        302 years ago

        Which is exactly why anyone in a position to do so should still drop Unity like a hot potato, sunk cost or not. We can’t condone this kind of behavior.

    • @[email protected]
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      482 years ago

      And pointedly, there was no mention of acknowledgement whatsoever of their sneaky license modifications from months ago that a bunch of people discovered after the fact.

      Unity’s execs and board do not fucking care. Their opinions have not been changed. They will certainly try something just as scummy at some point in the future. It’s only a matter of time.

    • Doc Blaze
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      2 years ago

      I agree they need to go to rev share, but I don’t think restoring trust is really what they are trying to do here. They planned for a good chunk of devs not returning to the engine. Since 80% of users don’t pay them anything, and a large percentage of what’s left like three hundred bucks (the engine costs several hundred million dollars to maintain) there’s not much to lose there., this is likely more about keeping large tier studios and mid tier ones working on mobile games in the ecosystem. They are abandoning their old “seats” model regardless.

      • @[email protected]
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        172 years ago

        the engine costs several hundred million dollars to maintain

        I just don’t understand this. Godot is fairly comparable in scope and while it is behind Unity somewhat it also has a tiny fraction of the budget. Sometimes just throwing more money at a product does not make it any better any faster.

        • Doc Blaze
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          Unity employs a small army (about 3K) of senior software engineers, that can definitely command upwards of 200K per year, which puts the estimate at 600 million, plus a number of specialists (mathematicians, physicists) for things like cloth and hair simulation, large water body dynamics etc. They maintain compatibility for a huge and growing list of varying hardware devices, computer operating systems, VR headsets, phones, consoles, i think unity games can even run on apple tv, this means they have to get things like floating point operation results reliable on all machines, older x86 processors, RISC chips, etc going back several decades, and even get experts directly from places like Microsoft for features like DOTS C# to native/burst compiler. Most devs don’t appreciate just how much commercial game engines handle in the background and make your build process so much easier. It’s definitely would take a slew of specialists years to get something basic and usable enough, just to display a couple moving shaded triangles, let alone something robust.

          Godot on the other hand while a highly capable engine, is a much lighter weight as by design (Juan L says so himself on the Godot blog). Features like plug and play multiplayer servers, machine learning for NPC behavior, encryption for credit card IAP, either aren’t included or havent been implemented as heavily or are only included in the asset store, as a product of a volunteer contributer, as most FOSS software is known to have. Just going through the unity package manager will show off the disgustingly bloated pile of software that is the unity engine. Probably several tens of thousands of packages available that most people will never use.

        • @[email protected]
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          2 years ago

          You’re not counting the several millions of dollars required for executive salaries yearly. Those executives are important because how else are you going to drain the life out of the developers who are actually maintaining the thing with useless meetings, bureaucracy, “cultural transitions”, and other forms of daily torment?

  • @[email protected]
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    922 years ago

    Don’t trust it. Even if it was a dry run, the only way to prevent this happening in the future is to abandon the platform completely. Fuck these people.

    • @[email protected]
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      52 years ago

      Is it even reducing the scope? I swore they had some language about only taking a cut after the first $1 million before. Something like "if you sell $1,000,001 then our cut would only be 5¢”

        • @[email protected]
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          22 years ago

          Context, I work for Unity, but this is my own understanding of things and doesn’t necessarily reflect the views of my employer nor should it be considered “official” positions of the company. We have folks where communication is their job. Mine is helping build a better engine. There’s been a lot of misinformation since the changes were announced and hopefully I can help straighten some of this out, but again if there are other questions, there are others who are better qualified to address that.

          The limit for using Personal was 100k. That has been raised to 200k. For the original terms, and these new terms, it is the same; no per-seat price until you reach the threshold. Once you reach the threshold, then you have to upgrade to Professional or Enterprise, and then there is a per-seat charge for the editor. When you hit the revenue or instance thresholds, then there is an additional charge… But you will be doing very well at that point and the amount is insignificant for most developers at that scale. Compared with Unreal, it is still significantly less, even with the announced terms last week. Unity continues to try and make it possible to create highly portable games for multiple platforms, and devices, and to do so with terms that encourage anyone to become a creator and build your dream game. The last thing Unity wants to do is stifle innovation and creativity.

          If you watch the Q&A, the reason for the change, so that it was “retroactive” was to apply these term changes to companies pulling in high revenue, think millions of dollars, and who were releasing what amounted to DLCs and Season types of updates but without doing anything except maybe changing assets. Some of these games are even repackaged and re-released as “new” games. In other cases they may sometimes radically change the game so that it might be more accurately described as a new game, but they continue to release using an unsupported version of the engine. If a developer did this every time they approached the threshold, they could technically have millions of users, all while skirting around the TOS. Do this on Personal, delist at 90k, and release a “new” game to perpetually circumvent the licensing fees. The change wasn’t intended to harm the good developers or studios who are trying to make high quality games, it was intended to go after the businesses releasing “Banana Slots 2022.1 (updated).” If that’s the content you release, I’m sorry, but I think your games are kind of scummy. Please stop. The app stores don’t need more of this sort of cash grab content.

          If you are making great content and the terms would severally impact you, then Unity was intending to work with you to reach agreeable terms.

          Under the new terms, the same applies. If you or your studio are greatly impacted by the new trerms, Unity doesn’t want to sink your business, they are trying to find a way to keep investing in the development of tools and services which will allow you to reach the greatest number of users and want to work with you to make that happen, as that works best for the creator and for Unity.

          For those making games for charity which were told they were going to be impacted, that was bad communication and you inadvertently spoke to the wrong person who didn’t fully understand your request. Content made for charity was always intended to be treated with favorable terms. The specifics of those terms I’m not deeply familiar with, so I don’t know how that applies to per-seat licensing or the details of such a contract, but I know that Unity works hard to support humanitarian efforts and I’m sure if you were making content for charities, nothing has changed.

          The bottom line is this. If you feel like the terms are going to make you insolvent, work with Unity to resolve that. Unity is a partner, not an overbearing entity. Unity wants you to be successful.

          • @[email protected]
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            12 years ago

            Not gonna lie, you sound like a PR department. And if you work for unity you better be looking for a new job. It’s only downhill from here.

            • @[email protected]
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              22 years ago

              Yeah, I expect that it might. Nope, I’m an engineer working on the engine side of things. I joined Unity because I believe in the work we’re doing, like my colleagues. The last couple of weeks have been a distraction, but my team is still pushing ahead and building the engine of tomorrow. Believe me, I’m personally just as frustrated with how things were communicated. I have a lot of faith in my team and the positive impact of the work we are doing. All I can say is that we’re continuing to build functionality and features which will enable developers to accomplish more and drive success. Decisions about how this technology is licensed isn’t something I have direct control over, but I hope that through our efforts we can help restore the trust which has been eroded. I’m still bullish on the future road map.

              • @[email protected]
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                12 years ago

                Sounds good, but I don’t think this is a problem that can be solved on that side of the Business.

  • @[email protected]
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    332 years ago

    It still doesn’t return the broken trust or conformation that the people running Unity are insane, but this is a good move and devs don’t need to alarmingly port their current projects to other engines.

    I want to start with this: I am sorry.

    Translation: damn, we really didn’t get away with this.

    The Runtime Fee policy will only apply beginning with the next LTS version of Unity shipping in 2024 and beyond.

    We will make sure that you can stay on the terms applicable for the version of Unity editor you are using

    Good. This is how it should’ve been from the start. If they bake that into the license I think people will be comfortable staying on Unity for the time being.

    For games that are subject to the runtime fee, we are giving you a choice of either a 2.5% revenue share or the calculated amount based on the number of new people engaging with your game each month. Both of these numbers are self-reported from data you already have available. You will always be billed the lesser amount.

    Also good. It should’ve been revshare from the start. I still don’t understand how they would trust self-reported numbers but we’ll see.

    These are good changes. The damage isn’t undone but at least current Unity devs won’t be thrown under the bus. I still think they should switch to something open source in the future but they get a lot more time to decide now.

    • Terrasque
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      202 years ago

      Yep, this is good as in won’t rail someone already developing or have developed something on Unity, but it has a lot of “and I would have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for you meddlesome kids!” energy to it.

    • @[email protected]
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      32 years ago

      I still don’t understand how they would trust self-reported numbers but we’ll see.

      This is just how this stuff works. Unity already operates with some self-reporting reliance (although afaik they don’t even require a report on the personal license), since the different tiers have a maximum revenue cap before you must upgrade. Software audits are a thing, and trying to skirt them by lying on your numbers is an easy way to get fined or sued.

    • ripcord
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      I still don’t understand how they would trust self-reported numbers but we’ll see.

      Because this was primarily about mobile. And because they can sanity check by looking at home many “installs” are reported by Apple and Google. I’m convinced that’s half the reason why they did the weird move of basing this on installs and not purchases (the other half or so being that they needed some way they can get more money from the bajillion free-to-play mobile games out there that Unity dominates)

      And they can sanity check SOME numbers being reported by Steam/Sony/etc though console and PC matter less to them.

      Also - how are they currently getting metrics for game revenue that they’d bill off of? Seems like a lot of self-reporting would be happening there too? And enforced with contracts, etc.

    • @[email protected]
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      2 years ago

      Every single thing they wrote there is anchored on “trust us” and trusting them is what we used to do until they broke that trust, massivelly so.

      So far they have done zero to restore the trust: their entire reaction has been to pull back on the face of the massive pushback and there is not even genuine remorse at having tried it - they purelly adjusted their demands in response to the reaction, rather than show true regret, make amends and make sure people have at least some way of trusting it won’t happen again.

      It’s like the bully that’s about to punch the little kid on the face for his lunch money and a teacher appears so has to stop. He didn’t “learn his lesson” and nothing has happenned to convince him to “never do it again”, so he’s just going to try it again at an occasion when it looks more likely to succeed.

      As others pointed out, the current CEO and board at Unity must go and a legally ironclad guarantee they can’t try this again needs to be put in place before any serious game developers are willing to risk using Unity again.

  • Sabata11792
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    142 years ago

    I don’t think they can come back from this. Everyone knows they will try again, just slow enough to not make big headlines. Unity is just too risky now that they showed their hand. I mean, its a former EA executive FFS.

  • @[email protected]
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    152 years ago

    Are they moving the goal posts and then only putting them partially back when called out?

  • Lettuce eat lettuce
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    252 years ago

    Lol, imagine grabbing your customer’s head, blasting a massive fart in their face, and then trying to say, “Just kidding! Just kidding!” when they get pissed off and leave.

    Unity can get fugged.

  • @[email protected]
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    2 years ago

    So future versions of the engine will still have these awful price changes? Why would anyone start using them then? Seems like if you have a choice, it’s time to learn a different engine anyway

    • @[email protected]
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      If they had just made it a 2.5% revenue share for the high-revenue games in the first place, I doubt even many game news outlets would’ve covered it, let alone “real” news. Now, after the massive dustup and pissing off all their customers, falling back to that may be a bit more difficult.

      • LazaroFilm
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        362 years ago

        Well even going back on their announcement completely would not mend this. They showed they don’t care about their clients and will screw them over at the first occasion. You can’t build a business when the fondation is built on a time bomb.

        • @[email protected]
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          212 years ago

          Yeah, if they didn’t do this and literally just said “from this future version royalties from high earners will need to be paid, as we need an income source. The old version will be a LTS release.” and it would have been literally fine.

          But retroactively screwing people like this? Obviously they will lose trust, and I do not understand how they didn’t understand that.

          • LazaroFilm
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            172 years ago

            Because the people who made the decision aren’t people familiar with the product or the community it caters to. They only see numbers and how mug the numbers could be…

            • Uriel238 [all pronouns]
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              72 years ago

              They could have done some fucking research. The message they sent was they didn’t care about fallout. So they deserve all the blowback of ever.

        • @[email protected]
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          102 years ago

          Yeah, I suppose the reputational harm from the announcement in the first place is going to set them back quite a bit, regardless. I suppose that’s why things like this are supposed to be reviewed before they get announced.

  • TheEntity
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    212 years ago

    Unity or not Unity, I have some important questions to ask. What was that allowed them to make such a move? A flawed license? A flawed law? Is there anything that would prevent other similar companies from doing exactly the same thing? We can hate Unity all we want and abandon it (I encourage it myself too) but isn’t the underlying problem still present?

    I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know the answers. Anyone more knowledgeable here?

    • greenskye
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      212 years ago

      Everything depends on a subscription now, so you are always one TOS update from being fucked. With enshittification setting in, I’m expecting to see this move pulled over and over. Just wait till AWS tries it. Or WordPress. Could singlehandedly tank the internet.